New Job System Incoming!!! - But what does this mean??

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Originally Posted by Abriael

At least you admit it.

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The fact that I was testing how long you'd keep on biting doesn't make what I was saying any less true, by the way. Don't misunderstand!

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Originally Posted by viion

probably got mentioned but "weapon type" doesnt really mean anything even now, a weapon has a class aligned to it and your class is defined by the one stated on the weapon, you can use two-handed staffs or wand/clubs on both conjurer and thaumaturge, its just the class is decided by what they choose for that weapon, even if both weapons are of identical type.

But i agree it is most likely a topper system, so you pick a class and then you can have any weapon on it. like XI.

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The Equipped item for Conjurer and Thaumaturge are the Focus, their real weapon is their Delivery of magic which is Circle or Cone AOE respectively.

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Originally Posted by Jericho

I don't agree that a gladiator is a "sword user" and an archer is a "bow user", regardless of what the translations say or what those words "mean". My job is an archer, and I am limited to bows. The level of my job determines my skills and hp and mp and def and eva and acc and everything else that makes you able to hold your own in a higher setting. In a literal sense, how well I use a bow should have nothing to do with my hp. I don't want to feel like I'm leveling up weapons. That doesn't feel like FF to me. I want to level up jobs, and use weapons, whether I am limited in my weapon selection or i have every weapon available. It just doesn't feel right.

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Inversely Rangers are not limited to bows, Guns, crossbows, or throwing weapons though.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

Please god I hope not, Talent Trees would not be necessary in a Armoury/Job System.

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:) Now that something i can agree with you. Talent tree would kill the game for me.

I don't care if they completely gut the existing classes I have ranked and turn them into jobs. I just worry about my Final Fantasy feeling like a Final Fantasy.. which it seems more and more geared towards with these little bits of information. Although, I will have to say this isn't a complete shock that they are going in this direction. It was hinted at long before now, but still exciting that it's confirmed to still be full steam ahead.

I highly enjoyed Kuro's ideas on the subject and I hope the Development Team is roughly on the same page. Cheers, guys!

I am in favour of removing Physical Level and replacing with Job Level. In order to do so they will need to strip back the current classes (weapon specialisation) to do it.

If they strip the weapons back to weapon skill's only and then add the skills and abilities they learn to the new Job System instead I would be very happy. So for MRD Skull Sunder, Trunk Splitter and so on would be weapon skill's tied to the Great Axe. Then the Job could be MRD/WAR and it would learn Bloodbath, Warmonger, Foresight and so on. With this system I could equip a sword and still have full use of my WAR/MRD abilities but the weapon skills would be from the Sword/GLA side so Onion Cut, Spin Stroke, Red Lotus and so on.

This just got really funny really fast.

http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/g...eb88f45a75.jpg

Popcorn time!

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Originally Posted by solracht

The fact that I was testing how long you'd keep on biting doesn't make what I was saying any less true, by the way. Don't misunderstand!

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That doesn't make it any less true. The simple fact that it was untrue makes it so, don't misunderstand!
By your logic, everyone that leveled a ninja sub in FFXI is a tank.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

That doesn't make it any less true. The simple fact that it was untrue makes it so, don't misunderstand!
By your logic, everyone that leveled a ninja sub in FFXI is a tank.

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Your job didn't really make you a tank, its what you did in a party that did.

A Thief/dancer can tank. It isn't pretty and you need a hella good support healer, but its viable.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

Your job didn't really make you a tank, its what you did in a party that did.

A Thief/dancer can tank. It isn't pretty and you need a hella good support healer, but its viable.

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Viable != being defined by the role of tanking.
There are classes that are tanks, and classes that can be viable for tanking in situational instances due to the utsusemi exploit and similar. That doesn't make them tanks.

God forbid we end up in FFXIV in the aberrant situation in which specialized tanks may be excluded from their own role because they deal less damage

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

The Equipped item for Conjurer and Thaumaturge are the Focus, their real weapon is their Delivery of magic which is Circle or Cone AOE respectively.

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No... Their equipped items are staves, radicals, and scepters. Traits of the Thaumaturge and Conjurer JOBS (which are limited to those weapons) are the shape of their AoE casting.

I'm sorry, but you don't work for SE, you don't have a time machine, and I highly doubt you are some type of spy... You can speculate but there's no way you know exactly what SE was intending when they created the armoury system. It could very easily just mean "one weapon per job", which could be a big failing point to a lot of people.

I mostly like you, I like a lot of your ideas, and part of me wants to get behind them, but you really come across as too forceful with your opinions. Your opinions are not facts.

Was waiting for bluegartr or /b/ to pop up...and both in one post, well played sir.

I'm not sure what people are argue'ing (sp) about anymore. Wouldn't it be great if everybody pooled all their idea's together and made a 20,000 person strong thread instead of bickering? That's just my thoughts. Talent tree's are very feasible in carpe's system, we've just been referring to it by a different name. And carpe's system fits really well into kuro's system. Why the fight?

And the whole only one job should have one role? That's garbage, its outdated and needs to go away.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Viable != being defined by the role of tanking.
There are classes that are tanks, and classes that can be viable for tanking in situational instances due to the utsusemi exploit and similar. That doesn't make them tanks.

God forbid we end up in FFXIV in the aberrant situation in which specialized tanks may be excluded from their own role because they deal less damage

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Thief/Dancer doesn't have Utsusemi. 0.o How can it abuse it.

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Originally Posted by Anathiel

And the whole only one job should have one role? That's garbage, its outdated and needs to go away.

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Because that role is needed in an extremely limited number for each situation, unlike every other role. This means that the more jobs are able to perform that role, the more people that are *specialized* in that simply won't have a role.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

Thief/Dancer doesn't have Utsusemi. 0.o How can it abuse it.

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You missed the "and similar" part.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

Inversely Rangers are not limited to bows, Guns, crossbows, or throwing weapons though.

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They are not traditionally. But it wouldn't bother me or, eventually, what I speculate as the majority of everyone else who plans on using a bow as a ranger.

From a designer/balance perspective. One job having one clearly defined role is a lot easier to manage content around. Than trying to plan for the unlikely combos that came out of FFXI.

DRK/NIN, NIN/DRK, BRD/NIN, RDM/WAR etc tanking Tiamat. <---- I've seen all of this first hand - not making this up.

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Originally Posted by Jericho

They are not traditionally. But it wouldn't bother me or, eventually, what I speculate as the majority of everyone else who plans on using a bow as a ranger.

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I always used guns and Xbows as ranger so if it was limited to bows. especially after a Crossbow or Gun Weapon class was Released, I'd be a little upset. I don't think we need a system that segregates one part of the Job system from one part of the Armoury System and instead they all can mesh in what ever pattern you want. Some might not be effective as others but thats up to the players to decide not the developer at that point.

Sounds like specialisation to me. (hopefully not sub jobs)

Conjurer - White Mage, Black Mage, Summoner (maybe one day)
Pugilist - White monk, Thief, Pirate
Gladiator - Dark Knight, Paladin

And so on.

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

From a designer/balance perspective. One job having one clearly defined role is a lot easier to manage content around. Than trying to plan for the unlikely combos that came out of FFXI.

DRK/NIN, NIN/DRK, BRD/NIN, RDM/WAR etc tanking Tiamat. <---- I've seen all of this first hand - not making this up.

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Ingenuity and Imagination should be fertilized not napalmed.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

Ingenuity and Imagination should be fertilized not napalmed.

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LOL that is all.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

Ingenuity and Imagination should be fertilized not napalmed.

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Especially when they lead to making a whole specialized class obsolete in it's own role right?

And here i thought that I read somewhere than the lack of class specialization was a problem in this game. Maybe I misread?

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Originally Posted by Abriael

That doesn't make it any less true. The simple fact that it was untrue makes it so, don't misunderstand!

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Do let me know how you managed to overcome hits that were not diminished by defense and why that was better than taking no damage at all.

Do let me know how your Paladin (/ninja or not) was more useful than a DD that was capable of outdamaging you while taking the same amount of damage as you would while doing so.

Square-Enix has never tried hard enough to make defined tanks.
See: "defense stat" or "criticall hit rate down" in Warcraft. Other western MMORPGs have it, too.

Basically, anyone who doesn't have enough of that stat will get crushed when getting hit by the hard bosses. No questions asked. By only letting tanks get that stat, and making defense actually matter (something neither XI or XIV have done) you guarantee that your "tanks" are not eclipsed by smart use of game mechanics.

Being serious now: ignoring the problem is the worst thing to do. Things aren't necesarily looking bright for Gladiators in this game either.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Especially when they lead to making a whole specialized class obsolete in it's own role right?

And here i thought that I read somewhere than the lack of class specialization was a problem in this game. Maybe I misread?

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^ You know its bad when we're both on the same page. lol

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

I always used guns and Xbows as ranger so if it was limited to bows. especially after a Crossbow or Gun Weapon class was Released, I'd be a little upset.

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Okay, I'll bite. Where I have trouble with your system is feeling like the titles really don't mean much. A few ranks/abilities as time goes on... I want it to mean more than that, more than the weapon class does. A high ranking ranger should not have to start from black brush in order to start using a gun.

Okay, the more I'm talking about it the more I'm starting to feel it. Maybe it would be okay.

Of course, the decision has already been made.

Somewhere on here someone said something along the lines of stripping away the abilities from the weapons and making it so with weapon ranks you're only learning weapon skills, and putting the abilities into the jobs that you'd need to rank to obtain. I can see how something such as "Ferocity" doesn't make sense to be a skill that someone learns by gaining experience with a polearm... Mesh them together the way physical rank and class rank are now. That sounds good.

It also sounds extremely similar to ffxi. Oops.

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Originally Posted by Jericho

Okay, I'll bite. Where I have trouble with your system is feeling like the titles really don't mean much. A few ranks/abilities as time goes on... I want it to mean more than that, more than the weapon class does. A high ranking ranger should not have to start from black brush in order to start using a gun.

Okay, the more I'm talking about it the more I'm starting to feel it. Maybe it would be okay.

Of course, the decision has already been made.

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You'd have to in XI.

If you were a Ranger who only leveled bow up to 30 then picked up a Gun you'd have to go back to low level areas to pick up the first few levels in it before you could use it in a party and skill it up properly. Its the same system essentially.

No shit it's the same system. Everyone knows that. The problem is... that not everyone wants XI-2.

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

^ You know its bad when we're both on the same page. lol

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I was thinking exactly the same thing. Scary...

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Being serious now: ignoring the problem is the worst thing to do. Things aren't necesarily looking bright for Gladiators in this game either.

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Luckily this game seems to have a team and a lead that actually listens. I seriously doubt they'll do the same error that the FFXI team did, legalizing and supportingwhat could only be defined as an exploit and screwing up the whole class system in the process.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

You'd have to in XI.

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Not a good reason to actually import in FFXIV all the flaws of FFXI

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

No shit it's the same system. Everyone knows that. The problem is... that not everyone wants XI-2.

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Which is why they should keep all the skills learned from Weapons and Job titles only give traits/stat bonuses/efficiency with skills equipped.

Surely, content can be balanced and designed better the more the developers can control us..

But a line must be drawn somewhere. How well balanced and designed content do we want?

I hope they consult with Tanaka on this new job system. I feel like he should be involved to preserve what's good about the current system.

Because he mentioned changes to the Armory system AND a job system I'm gonna assume the current CLASSES will stay and you will be able to choose JOBS within those CLASSES. This also makes sense lore-wise because each CLASS already has an established guild and lore in its city, so if they replaced CLASSES with JOBS they'd have to deal with lore and such too.

My 2 cents.

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Originally Posted by Jericho

Somewhere on here someone said something along the lines of stripping away the abilities from the weapons and making it so with weapon ranks you're only learning weapon skills, and putting the abilities into the jobs that you'd need to rank to obtain. I can see how something such as "Ferocity" doesn't make sense to be a skill that someone learns by gaining experience with a polearm... Mesh them together the way physical rank and class rank are now. That sounds good.

It also sounds extremely similar to ffxi. Oops.

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Yes that was me I also feel it is incredibly stupid how everything is tied to weapons. I want them separated. Weapons skill's learnt by weapon, Skill's, Traits and Abilities learnt by Job. If they do away with the Physical Level system and replace it with Job Level they could probably do it.

Also yes it is very similar to FFXI, which is what I want it to be ^^

The Great War of Dev 1033 threads have begun! Yoshi-P what have you done... We had a treaty until you wrote those few lines in your post. Hurry up and inform us quick!

lol

Famine to feast with info? exiciting times.

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Originally Posted by Akumu

The Great War of Dev 1033 threads have begun! Yoshi-P what have you done... We had a treaty until you wrote those few lines in your post. Hurry up and inform us quick!

lol

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LOL

Still applies: http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/g...eb88f45a75.jpg

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Originally Posted by snowstriker

Because he mentioned changes to the Armory system AND a job system I'm gonna assume the current CLASSES will stay and you will be able to choose JOBS within those CLASSES. This also makes sense lore-wise because each CLASS already has an established guild and lore in its city, so if they replaced CLASSES with JOBS they'd have to deal with lore and such too.

My 2 cents.

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This.

/10char

HOW ABOUT MIXING CLASS NAMES LIKE IN PHANTASY STAR ONLINE UNIVERSE

GLADIADIN, PUGIEF, CONJUMMONER, BLACKTURGE AND LANGOON

thumbs up if u agree

I think that all in all, the whole class and job system that is in place right now should just be completely overhauled. Scrap it and put another one in place. The current system just needs a good replacing.

Oh hell yes!