The growing entitlement issues of the casuals

Casuals "vs" Hardcore
"Troll" vs "Fanboy"

The Trend goes on...
No People should get some Special Armor because the have more time.
People should be rewarded according to their skills and this has no effect on neither Casual or Hardcore.
"Hardcore" people probably will get the good stuff earlier and there is no Problem with that, unless the Casuals have the same possibilities.
From the List thats postet Im more the "Normal" Guy, sometime more, sometimes less.
I personally just want to enjoy the game with people who thinks the same way.
Its a question about possibilitys, Casuals should be given the same as the Hardcore but to get the good stuff you still need the Skill.
At the Moment there is no real Content for that but if its Challenging and I mean Challenging and not Timesinking, then they have nothing to fear that the game is too Casual.

one of my fave mini boss fights was in twilight princess, It was this moutain manor where this yeti and his wife live. In the old armory was this knight he had this mega flail the night was in full armor. Meaning poor link could just charge him with his sword. To add insult to injury you were in a hallway that was just wide enough and tall enough ti fit in the knight. It took me 4-7 tries to figure out who to even go about fighting him. After trial and error I finally figured out how to defeat him and I got that megaflail as a reward. (using it was fun too hehe) the mega boss fight was also challenging because your battle took plance on ice and link was sliping and sliding around plus having to use the flail which was to heavy for link. fun fight :3

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Originally Posted by Tezz_Xivectro

Well the problem is that casuals should not be rewarded the same as someone working harder. Can't really do alot about gear drops, but what about the new systems coming.

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If you put in more playtime you're not "working harder". The game isn't work (or shouldn't be). Playing more isn't a merit. The fact that you can play more (and as such have more fun, since it's not work), should be enough of a reward.

I have to admit that I have a chuckle every time I see someone defining playing a game as "working hard", as they needed to somehow ennoble what's simply a pastime, done for their own personal enjoyment.
Funny how this thread denounces some nondescript "casual entitlement" (that most of the time is more the subject of wild strawman arguments like "they want everything playing one hour a week!" or "they want everything for free when they create a character!" than anything actually real) when the biggest sense of entitlement I see is from self defined hardcores that think that playing a game for fun is or should be comparable to "hard work"

some ffxi stuff that was challenging but wasn't a time sink... fighting diablos (the flipping bane of ff8 mind you) to get to him all you had to do was get to the glaciaer go to psxo something dungeon. And then just follor the black/red pattern down an elevator and through the door. the actuall fight (even at 90 ) was not easy diablos prime has so many abilities it does its not easy to stun him. We had dark nights blu heck me as a dancer trying to stun him. XD My ex died saving the group but we got him. I love the fight I as a dancer actually went and solo him just cuz I like fighting him. I died but hey I get to fight him any time I want to test my skills :) That is stuff we need it was challenging but not time consuming :)


same for cop, Cop wasm;t that time consuming the actual fights were chalenging well minys prommy those wrere both time consuming and chellenging.

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Originally Posted by Kilta_Firelotus

some ffxi stuff that was challenging but wasn't a time sink... fighting diablos (the flipping bane of ff8 mind you) to get to him all you had to do was get to the glaciaer go to psxo something dungeon. And then just follor the black/red pattern down an elevator and through the door. the actuall fight (even at 90 ) was not easy diablos prime has so many abilities it does its not easy to stun him. We had dark nights blu heck me as a dancer trying to stun him. XD My ex died saving the group but we got him. I love the fight I as a dancer actually went and solo him just cuz I like fighting him. I died but hey I get to fight him any time I want to test my skills :) That is stuff we need it was challenging but not time consuming :)


same for cop, Cop wasm;t that time consuming the actual fights were chalenging well minys prommy those wrere both time consuming and chellenging.

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This Sounds really good and more important- Fun.
From what I read so far, This Forum is more about How FFXIV should NOT be instead of Ideas of how it CAN be.
We are all players who want to see a progress in the game but it doesnt help the game to tell the devs "dont make it like WoW" dont do this dont do that.
And If people post some Ideas, even when its kinda childish, Discuss and try to work on the Idea to make an actual working thing that can be of Help but people prefer to rage attack and call everyone troll because its not "Hardcore".

Damn where is the Loyalty Mode?

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I have to admit that I have a chuckle every time I see someone defining playing a game as "working hard", as they needed to somehow ennoble what's simply a pastime, done for their own personal enjoyment.
Funny how this thread denounces some nondescript "casual entitlement" when the biggest sense of entitlement I see is from self defined hardcores that think that playing a game for fun is or should be comparable to "hard work"

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Interesting inference, these "hardcores" just don't want to be the same as everyone else, but they will likely still be "ahead" if they play longer anyway (so i don't see why they would complain, they'll just get there faster).
The game should be fun, but not at the cost of everyone being the same at a relatively fast pace either.
This is not implying that everything take forever and be a major timesink either.

If there are people comparing it to "hard work" then it sux to be the person stressing over the game. It's sad when an addictive personality causes an individual to just sit and play all the time.
If they are in a sweatshop though, then it might likely be hard work. Who Knows.

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Originally Posted by TonyMontana

If casual $$ are a much larger percent of the income (once SE starts charging) then SE will cater to casuals. If hardcore $$ are a much larger percent of the pie then SE wil cater more to hardcore fans. Its just that simple.

Dont fool yourself into thinking the choices they make have anything to do with ANYTHING but $$.

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Or, they could cater to both groups at the same time for the whole pie.

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Or, they could cater to both groups at the same time for the whole pie.

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In the end, they will. The question is, which side gets more cake?

Content needs to be fun, but some content needs a 'oh wow you completed that?!' factor :)

I've never killed anything amazing/achieved anything awesome in any game I've played, but I think it's awesome to see people doing crazy things :D (like achieving level 200 on Maplestory <3).

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Originally Posted by Tezz_Xivectro

The game should be fun, but not at the cost of everyone being the same at a relatively fast pace either.

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In any case people that play more will always get stuff faster than people that play less, without the need of artificial stumbling blocks. It's simply a matter of physical time.

The problem with FFXIV is not that getting things take too little time (let's be real, someone playing two hours a week won't even see the endgame, and any NM, if not several months after any "hardcore" player, let alone getting the drops form them and turning them into actual items, since most stuff requires two drops from different NMs).
It's that for now there's too little content, and as such the rewards are limited in number. That means that people that play 12 hours a day will get everything that's to be gotten and then will have to stop, allowing many to catch up even if they're much slower.

In any game in which there's a sizable amount of content, people playing a lot don't get "capped" that fast, and as such catching up to them isn't easy and in many case even possible.
The problem is that we need more content, not that we need to make the content less accessible to a large percentage of players and paying customers.

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Originally Posted by Yellow

Content needs to be fun, but some content needs a 'oh wow you completed that?!' factor :)

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Not really. Some content needs to a "oh wow, you managed to clear that extremely difficult encounter?! You must have mad skills!" factor. There's nothing impressive in someone that farmed the same boring mob for 1000 hours, or waited for 1000 hours to finally claim a spawn. Quite the contrary. I honestly feel pity for someone like that.

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The problem is that we need more content, not that we need to make the content less accessible to a large percentage of players and paying customers.

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Exactly, we need different events that players can enjoy. FF11 was king of endgame with Sky, Sea, Kings, Dynamis, xNM, Campaign, etc etc...

All the while not drastically obsoleting existing armor, if at all. It was very parallel and gave the armor meaning. I do think there should be some zone restrictions in the game somewhat, but nothing like waiting 24hrs to talk to an NPC just to finish the damn thing.

here is what I am thing right now

WoW is popular not because its "easy", but everyone can pretty much do anything, everyone has the same acess to everything. The challenge in WoW are the actual right (subjective) At least to me some WoW fights/ content was challenging and even though I only had 2-4 hours to play I could try anything I wanted.

ffxi wasn't as popular as it could/should be since players never had the same acess to everything. FFXI when by the longer you play the more content you can do. So playing ffxi for 2-4 hours was very limiting in what a player can do.

in a sence ffxiv should be more like >.> you know.... in the sence as everyone has the same acess to everything. No matter how much time you got you should beable to try everything the game has for content.

What would the point in adding more content if players are limited because they play for less time? No one is going to play a game when they only have acess to 20% of the content.

Everyone should have the chance to start content.
Only some will have the skill to complete it.

That is a much better design philosophy as well as a much better way to distribute gear.

If claiming a ffxi style tank and spank mob is the pinnacle of skill in this game or any other then ill pass.

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Originally Posted by Tezz_Xivectro

In the end, they will. The question is, which side gets more cake?

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everyone gets the same amount of cake no one shoukd get more or less cake.

that the direction the game needs to head in. There is no need or reason to limit the acess of content for ppl who simply can't play the game all the time. Everyone who bought the game has a right to play the game to its fullest.

If all ppl worry about is who gets more cake or the bigger slices, then you play mmo for the wrong reasons.

No one will want to play buy a game play a monthly fee for the game, but only have acess to 20% of content. It should be up to the player on how much content they do. Not the game. I bought ffxiv, Im going to gave to rebuy it for the ps3 on top of a mnthly fee. I want to be able to do anything and everything this game has to offer. Or else imo would be a waste of money :) Let me decide how much of the content I want to do.

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If all ppl worry about is who gets more cake or the bigger slices, then you play mmo for the wrong reasons.

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I'm not entirely sure on the experiences & thoughts of new-to-MMO gamers are on playing an MMO. But, over time you really do learn that it's more about the journey & experiences and NOT being at endgame or standing in town(doing nothing).
It's painful to see a person who is only worried about everyone around them. Competing to 1-up them and get "to the top". Flaking out on everyone in their way, hopping linkshells, loot whoring etc... then they might get what they want and quit.

I know a friend who plays only to show-off and not to experience community. He's one of the most frustrated MMO players i've met. Are kids these days only concerned about bragging rights? (i know we're in an "Age of the Ego", but come on!)

I've got to get some sleep now, see you guys later.

one thing I hated in ffxi was getting "forced" to get ohat. I didn't want this gear as it was to much of a timesink. My monk started to get kicked from groups becauseof not having it. it took me about a month just to get/ buy all the eyes. another mnth to find a crafter who didn't ask for a reward when he said he will help but then demanded 500K or he was keeping the item. After begging my b/f to give me gil after, i payed him the 500K and got my pop item. it was then another 2 weeks after that me and my b/f join a ohat allience.... oh em geee. i sat in that allience for 13 hours just to wait for my turn I nearly passed out twice as this was around my bed time. after getting ohat... i used it for 2 weeks then never used it again. that item made me no better then I was w/o it. That is a useless time sink.

People who do not have the time to play daily for 5+ hours a day > Longer time to get to cap, once at cap can participate in end game content get access to gear.

People who spend 5+ hours a day easily > Reach cap sooner, get access to content sooner, feel special for longer Because they got the item before others did.


In no place in that equation is an arbitrary 24+ hour repop timer or Hell even 5+hour repop timers, necessary.


As monk lol. O-hat is funny. I'd rather use a Riceball Band and use Shogun Rice Balls.

tezz i hope you know i'm not an mmo newbie... I just dealt with alot of pointless bs in ffxi which made me realize a few thing and that i also know how it feels to only get ti play a game as much as you may want to.

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tezz i hope you know i'm not an mmo newbie... I just dealt with alot of pointless bs in ffxi which made me realize a few thing and that i also know how it feels to only get ti play a game as much as you may want to.

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I don't judge. everyone poops.

I started FF11 in 2003(till 2011, no more than 2 month breaks) and i know exactly what you're talking about. And most the time it was alot of bullshit and still is today even. I've decided if i can't have fun in an MMO then theres no point in playing (and i won't).
I recently almost gave up MMO's completely due to the fact that MMO communities just seem like they will never evolve mentally.

Most people i know/known don't have the time like they used to. Hell, even i don't. It would be a shame if SE still tries to add further timesinks/restrictions that are not appropriate. If they try to continue down that path, i'll tell you now, that i won't be playing this game.

Can we get Barack Obama in here to run an entitlement program for casual gamers? OBAMACARE.. for gamers!

Seriously though Randis has a point. As for QQing hardcore gamers, you are going to get your Relic weapons, Nyzul Isle, and challenging gameplay. What are you worried about? This is obviously about NM popping since things like Einherjar and Nyzul Isle were never open to casuals in the first place. Maybe they should add pandemonium warden and absolute virtue to Loyalty Mode.. just for you!! Cause spending months to pop 1 NM is such a good way to spend your time!

Since Yoshi is a MMO player himself AND a hardworking Man, I think that he could hit the Spot between Time and Content or Casual/Hardcore.
But if it becomes too timeconsuming, I would probably quit too but thats not gonna happen because Yoshi is aware of how Important Time is in an MMO and the Casuals.

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Originally Posted by Kilta_Firelotus

one thing I hated in ffxi was getting "forced" to get ohat. I didn't want this gear as it was to much of a timesink. My monk started to get kicked from groups becauseof not having it. it took me about a month just to get/ buy all the eyes. another mnth to find a crafter who didn't ask for a reward when he said he will help but then demanded 500K or he was keeping the item. After begging my b/f to give me gil after, i payed him the 500K and got my pop item. it was then another 2 weeks after that me and my b/f join a ohat allience.... oh em geee. i sat in that allience for 13 hours just to wait for my turn I nearly passed out twice as this was around my bed time. after getting ohat... i used it for 2 weeks then never used it again. that item made me no better then I was w/o it. That is a useless time sink.

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Amen kilta.. that story touched my heart.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

I have to say thats the worst classification of Casual Vs Hardcore that I have ever heard.

It's not a matter of time spent it's a matter of how you aproach the game. Casuals tend to take it slow and easy doing things how they want when they want. Hardcore players generally rush to the finish. there are alot of ways to explain if you are a casual or hardcore MMO player, but flat out generalizing the Hardcore players as

"Neckbeards" is flat out insulting. Perhaps you are mixing up Hardcore players with Elitist players.

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i like this definition. This way i am a casuall oplayer in everything i do ^^. Just do all in way i enjoy most. Fun>Efficiency

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Originally Posted by Xeno

First things first, Casuals do not = hardcore players. Even Yoshi agrees.

So what's the deal? Why is it that casual players feel that they should have the same awesome gear that the hardcore players have? This is absolutely beyond me. The more effort you put into something the greater the reward.

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I think those who have the time to play should get better gear then those who have less. In 11 I knew I would not get relic because I didn't have the time. That's ok but give me something I can get so I'm not gimped. That way I can help the group I'm in.

I see there's also a growing entitlement issue of "hardcore" players in regards to their "phat lootz"

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Originally Posted by Neptune

Can we get Barack Obama in here to run an entitlement program for casual gamers? OBAMACARE.. for gamers!

Seriously though Randis has a point. As for QQing hardcore gamers, you are going to get your Relic weapons, Nyzul Isle, and challenging gameplay. What are you worried about? This is obviously about NM popping since things like Einherjar and Nyzul Isle were never open to casuals in the first place. Maybe they should add pandemonium warden and absolute virtue to Loyalty Mode.. just for you!! Cause spending months to pop 1 NM is such a good way to spend your time!

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Luckily the guy who designed all of that is off in XI still.

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Originally Posted by kanjitai

I think those who have the time to play should get better gear then those who have less. In 11 I knew I would not get relic because I didn't have the time. That's ok but give me something I can get so I'm not gimped. That way I can help the group I'm in.

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heck no time you play should NEVER = the best gear. If i end up with a 40 hr a week or more job why should I be limited in what I can get. It should be up to the player to pick what to get not the game.

For a community that seems to hate World of Warcraft so much, you sure are following the footsteps of its communiy closely. It's like it's 2005-2006 and I'm in the World of Warcraft forums or something.

Same arguments being made too... the difference is Warcraft didn't have to give in to anyone as it was already pretty popular. In this game I don't even feel like they can make a choice: they'll have to cater to the bigger group to survive, which makes these threads pretty pointless.

I think we all know what the numbers of each "team" look like.

If you're in the huge group, you'll get the cake, no matter what the other side thinks. If you're in the small one, then either move on now, or accept the fate of the game. It's not out of the question that they might try to make everyone happy later on, but it's pretty obvious where we're heading in the immediate future.

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Originally Posted by Kilta_Firelotus

heck no time you play should NEVER = the best gear. If i end up with a 40 hr a week or more job why should I be limited in what I can get. It should be up to the player to pick what to get not the game.

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Amen, camping is no indicator of player skill or fun. Remember the Ridill, the ohat, the strider boots. Entire strategies in FFXI hinged on such items. This is not the stuff of challenging encounters or casual play, its sitting on your duff mashing provoke!

Does anyone really play a game to do that, really??

The days of hardcore MMO's are dead, SE wants to make money and the easiest way to do that is to make their game fun, make content easily accessibly (but not necessarily easy) and in game items obtainable.

WoW is considered massively casual although it does have its hardcore content as well, its pretty obvious that SE are heading down a similar path with this game.

I'm sure there will be plenty of hardcore content in this game, in the form of difficult encounters but those FF11 fans that need their ego's stroked because they have the best gear need to realise that standing around for an NM/HNM to spawn is not hardcore, its just boring.

I don't consider myself casual, although I do tend to support casual content because I don't want to waste my life away playing a game, I did enough of that in FF11.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Amen, camping is no indicator of player skill or fun. Remember the Ridill, the ohat, the strider boots. Entire strategies in FFXI hinged on such items. This is not the stuff of challenging encounters or casual play, its sitting on your duff mashing provoke!

Does anyone really play a game to do that, really??

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I avoided hunting nm if I could. And only did a few out of bordem. I stop caring about gear I was "forced into doing". I got ADD sitting on my butt 12 hrs hunting an nm isn't fun. spemdong 12 hrs traveling to earn the right to content isn't fun, taking 12 hours to get a mission done isn't fun.

fun is getting things done when you want and that the challenge is in the fight. Not the time it took or how much you play a day.
FFxi is slowly dieing from being like that.
ffxiv will not even make it if it end up like that.

im a Casual player but im all for there plans to remove surplus system let be honest it hurt us as well i get a good day to grid i hit surplus which is lame i have very little time i work overnight at walmart full time and run networking and pc repair business so little strapped on time, but I still think that surplus should go out the window, as for having the best gear i will get it in time and if not ill live it just damn game

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Originally Posted by Kilta_Firelotus

one thing I hated in ffxi was getting "forced" to get ohat. I didn't want this gear as it was to much of a timesink. My monk started to get kicked from groups becauseof not having it. it took me about a month just to get/ buy all the eyes. another mnth to find a crafter who didn't ask for a reward when he said he will help but then demanded 500K or he was keeping the item. After begging my b/f to give me gil after, i payed him the 500K and got my pop item. it was then another 2 weeks after that me and my b/f join a ohat allience.... oh em geee. i sat in that allience for 13 hours just to wait for my turn I nearly passed out twice as this was around my bed time. after getting ohat... i used it for 2 weeks then never used it again. that item made me no better then I was w/o it. That is a useless time sink.

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Yeah the 12 hours pop are lame i dont mind if have few but please dont make most of them this that just lame but should be a little bit of time seek with though just not 12 hours hell I recall not getting half of them to even drop the item in FFxi.

Casual: Players who work, have school maybe have about 1-4hours to play each day or only on the weekend. Play for fun and enjoy the game. Have gear but not the best and is no where near endgame events.

Hardcore: Players who have lot's of free time, use there time getting the best gear, looking for best item, Learn how to play there class the best. Does the most endgame events use up there time looking around the world for item and goods. Levels up more class so they can do more events if they ls needed a whm they have it.

i don't believe that Casual players should have better gear then a hardcore player. But then again i play FFXI for hours a day 10+hours when i had no school and was no where near players who had best gear. It took me months to make the money for Kirin-body. But at the end i see myself as a Hardcore player but play as a casual because am more lay back then really wanting to get all the gear right away.

If you want top the line gear you have to work for it if it take you 10-20mins to do it, then i feel that i did not work for anything and it just other gear someone else would have.

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Originally Posted by Captaindownsyndrome

im a Casual player but im all for there plans to remove surplus system let be honest it hurt us as well i get a good day to grid i hit surplus which is lame i have very little time i work overnight at walmart full time and run networking and pc repair business so little strapped on time, but I still think that surplus should go out the window, as for having the best gear i will get it in time and if not ill live it just damn game

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Um, not for nothing,but I find this implausible...especially unconvincing is why you think surplus should go. Surplus by its own nature, helps people like you.

what is surplus SP? also I like how Zenaku said it. the definition of hardcore and casual. I feel I fall in between the two. I have time to play but don't want to spend hours on one thing.

best example relic armor from 11. 3+ hours with no guarantee you get a thing. I just want SE to give casual content as well as hardcore that way both sides have something to do.

surplus is fatigue to Sp. In alpha/beta was called like that, then renamed

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Originally Posted by Zenaku

Casual: Players who work, have school maybe have about 1-4hours to play each day or only on the weekend. Play for fun and enjoy the game. Have gear but not the best and is no where near endgame events.

Hardcore: Players who have lot's of free time, use there time getting the best gear, looking for best item, Learn how to play there class the best. Does the most endgame events use up there time looking around the world for item and goods. Levels up more class so they can do more events if they ls needed a whm they have it.

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As I previously stated I am a "casual player", i.e. due to RL I am only on for ~4 hours a day during the week (although on more during the weekend if I can).

I don't agree with the pigeonholing that "Casual" gamers do not get involved with events, learn how to play their job well or do not support thier LS by having other classes leveled.

The hours that I play in FFXIV are the same as in FFXI.. I did Sky, Sea, Limbus, Dynamis, Salvage, Einherjar etc.

IMO I played my RDM well: I was always in the main tanking party for healing and support (without WHM backup because I was trusted to do my job), I could kite and keep things going when things went wrong so that party members could be raised and recover, I understood and kept up haste and refresh cycles without anyone having to ask- because I knew my job and what was expected, crowd control... There are lots of examples.
I had other jobs leveled for the LS- mainly WHM, but also DD (SAM and BLU), BST (good for some pop NMs and BCNMS) and even DRK sub (yuck) for CS Stun requirements. Although RDM was my main love, I would go as whichever job was required for the good of the LS to any event.

So as a "Casual" gamer I do not fall into the categories I keep seeing appear, and it is unfair to keep picking at people that cannot be online 10hrs a day by saying that they want everything handed to them and they want the game to be easy. I do not want the game to be easy- I want a balance, and I want respective rewards given for the effort people put in :)

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Originally Posted by Zenaku

Casual: Players who work, have school maybe have about 1-4hours to play each day or only on the weekend. Play for fun and enjoy the game. Have gear but not the best and is no where near endgame events.

Hardcore: Players who have lot's of free time, use there time getting the best gear, looking for best item, Learn how to play there class the best. Does the most endgame events use up there time looking around the world for item and goods. Levels up more class so they can do more events if they ls needed a whm they have it.

i don't believe that Casual players should have better gear then a hardcore player. But then again i play FFXI for hours a day 10+hours when i had no school and was no where near players who had best gear. It took me months to make the money for Kirin-body. But at the end i see myself as a Hardcore player but play as a casual because am more lay back then really wanting to get all the gear right away.

If you want top the line gear you have to work for it if it take you 10-20mins to do it, then i feel that i did not work for anything and it just other gear someone else would have.

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For me the days of hardcore ended when I got a job..

But tell me something.. why shouldn't casuals be able to get involved in endgame activities and get equipment as good as hardcore's..? Casuals need just more time than hardcores to achieve that, it wouldn't be fair to negate things to casuals because "they don't play enough hours a day"..

"That serves you for getting a job instead of living in the basement of your parents..!" is that what an hardcore gamer would say to a casual then..?

FFXI became too demanding in terms of time.. that's why I had to quit.. now I have to pray SE that they don't turn FFXIV in another timesink because hardcores want to spend their life on it..?

You were obviously in my head when you typed that response Lenneth Valkyrie ^^