[dev1002] The entire world lacking as a battle environment.

Good post Darth Taru

Quit looping things out of context. DarthTaru is only stating one example as to why FFXI was good, and a death penalty WAS one of the many many things. It kept people on their toes. Using sneak and invisible to move stealthly. If you implored bad judgment, death was inevitable and it came at a price. It made you think twice in terms of imploring a great strategy to defeat XP/HNM/Dynamis/Etc enemies without having to die. Now if you wipe on an NM, oh well. Let's fall twenty to thirty times because we can just zerg it with no penalties.......No.

That's what he means about it takes a certain level of challenge from the game. If you wiped on an HNM in FFXI you were SoL. If you constantly died, you deleveled. With a death penalty involved in the equation it added a sense of survival to the gameplay. It made you flee when you were in over your head, and spam your two-hour abilities when available to at least try to defeat the enemy. I'm a long-time FFXI player and I despised the death penalty, but looking back now.........Wow. It adds a bit of difficulty when you think about it. If I died while leveling blm solo, that's more time chalked onto leveling. It made me fight to the best to avoid dying.

Don't care who you are, or which other previous MMO you came from. This is Final Fantasy. I didn't buy this game to play a gimmick of other MMO games. I bought it because I thought it was a Final Fantasy MMO. So in a way I'm glad that the team from FFXI is now holding the ropes of this new installment. Maybe now I'll find that feeling that became lost when I first starting playing FFXIV.

EXP loss until you're at level cap ... right?

:| Nothing like being in a level cap dungeon then BAM! You wipe thanks to someone else and you're level 49 >.>

-- Will encourage less interaction =] as less people will want to rely on someone else.

There will be less 'Tanks' too because they'd die more than others, and then there would be a stress on 'Healers' -- bigger expectations.

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Originally Posted by Kimahri

Quit looping things out of context. DarthTaru is only stating one example as to why FFXI was good, and a death penalty WAS one of the many many things. It kept people on their toes. Using sneak and invisible to move stealthly. If you implored bad judgment, death was inevitable and it came at a price. It made you think twice in terms of imploring a great strategy to defeat XP/HNM/Dynamis/Etc enemies without having to die. Now if you wipe on an NM, oh well. Let's fall twenty to thirty times because we can just zerg it with no penalties.......No.

That's what he means about it takes a certain level of challenge from the game. If you wiped on an HNM in FFXI you were SoL. If you constantly died, you deleveled. With a death penalty involved in the equation it added a sense of survival to the gameplay. It made you flee when you were in over your head, and spam your two-hour abilities when available to at least try to defeat the enemy. I'm a long-time FFXI player and I despised the death penalty, but looking back now.........Wow. It adds a bit of difficulty when you think about it. If I died while leveling blm solo, that's more time chalked onto leveling. It made me fight to the best to avoid dying.

Don't care who you are, or which other previous MMO you came from. This is Final Fantasy. I didn't buy this game to play a gimmick of other MMO games. I bought it because I thought it was a Final Fantasy MMO. So in a way I'm glad that the team from FFXI is now holding the ropes of this new installment. Maybe now I'll find that feeling that became lost when I first starting playing FFXIV.

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In the situation with NMs and the learning curve DP didn't effect how smart we were about fighting it or how many attempts it would take. All it did was mean we had less attempts at trying to take it down before we had to go get our levels back. Fighting NMs was and is fun. Grinding XP was not. I can accept that you might like grinding xp and that you enjoyed the sense of danger that the DP created for you. But can you acknowledge that there are a lot of us that didn't feel the same as you?

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Originally Posted by Kimahri

Quit looping things out of context. DarthTaru is only stating one example as to why FFXI was good, and a death penalty WAS one of the many many things. It kept people on their toes. Using sneak and invisible to move stealthly. If you implored bad judgment, death was inevitable and it came at a price. It made you think twice in terms of imploring a great strategy to defeat XP/HNM/Dynamis/Etc enemies without having to die. Now if you wipe on an NM, oh well. Let's fall twenty to thirty times because we can just zerg it with no penalties.......No.

That's what he means about it takes a certain level of challenge from the game. If you wiped on an HNM in FFXI you were SoL. If you constantly died, you deleveled. With a death penalty involved in the equation it added a sense of survival to the gameplay. It made you flee when you were in over your head, and spam your two-hour abilities when available to at least try to defeat the enemy. I'm a long-time FFXI player and I despised the death penalty, but looking back now.........Wow. It adds a bit of difficulty when you think about it. If I died while leveling blm solo, that's more time chalked onto leveling. It made me fight to the best to avoid dying.

Don't care who you are, or which other previous MMO you came from. This is Final Fantasy. I didn't buy this game to play a gimmick of other MMO games. I bought it because I thought it was a Final Fantasy MMO. So in a way I'm glad that the team from FFXI is now holding the ropes of this new installment. Maybe now I'll find that feeling that became lost when I first starting playing FFXIV.

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HNMs just show how death penalty doesnt matter, they expected people to die, many strategies involve dying. People are expected to build up buffer, so they can die repeatedly in endgame content, as long as everyone doesnt die at once, there is no wipe. HNM that were hard, IT DIDNT MATTER HOW MANY TIMES YOU DIED because just coming back to life wasnt going to allow you to defeat them, while you could use coming back to life to deal with specific issues, you needed a setup to deal with death, or else you failed.
Endgame stuff, no one cared if you died, sometimes they expected it, they also expect you to go get your exp back. It really is just a time sink. There really is no logical reason why dying should make you lose experience. Also it punishes people who dont have access to fast exp more, IE the slow leveling solo guy hates dying, but the party guy who gets 20k an hour doesnt give a damn. But who is more likely to die?

I agree 100%... hell went back and started a new character in ffxi and had more fun in the first 20 minutes playing that game for the first time in 5 years than all the time i played 14 from beta-january.

yeah, but ffxi still exists, and has 6 years of content, tweaks and development behind it. How can any game compete if it offers the same thing. Im not saying this game doesnt need to change or evolve, but it is foolish for them to make this game like ffxi, when they are still making and supporting ffxi, they would just be canabalizing their own market. They need to make a different and good game. Death penalty isnt the answer for that

Okay. Let's face the facts. In every single game EVER devoloped, there has been a consequence towards dying or failing a certain aspect of the game. In Super Mario if you were squashed, stomped, chewed, eaten, flamed, or bombed, you either started from the start of the level, or at the checkpoint half-way. In Call Of Duty if you died, you had a delay timer from being respawn and also lost your killstreak. In Batman: Arkham Asylum if Batman got the **** beat out of him, Joker would come out and say, "Haha!" in your face and you'd be forced to try again. On Ace Combat (or whatever I'm thinking of) if your airplane was shot down, you'd be forced to buy another plane in order to replace the one you blew up.

Basically what I'm saying is that in a world of MMO where a lot of you time is based on leveling, it would seem perfectly feasable that XP be lost per death. There must be a consequence for you being irrational and dying stupidly. I've seen so many people go out in Behest and just get ravaged by a group of enemies and then come back to take another 2-3 deaths and lay there while they still gain XP dead. A weakness is good for a consequence, but it needs something more as an incentive to stop people from acting like Baboons when it comes to fighting. It will implore no strategy in the long run. Just keep attacking until you die and still you'll gain XP for it.

I try to get people to see the other end of the spectrum, but you choose to ignore it and rebutal with nothing. It's just along the lines of people's complaints with Call of Duty: Black Ops. If you get shot in the chest or face, there's no way in hell you're getting back up. Make some consequences worth remembrance and bring back a challenge.

P.S. Play on the hardest difficulty on any game. Guaran-damn-tee you that most of the time you get your ass whooped, have limited saves, and you deal less damage to the AI. That's a challenge. Where's FFXIV's?

reduced exp while weakened might make more sense, see before you could only get exp for actions, so the lower stamina basically lowered your exp gain for that time, as well as dying again would make this last longer, and less hp is usually dangerous with aoe mobs. Now there is no such factors, but minus exp is a different story. In a FPS it would be closer to losing unlocks, you have done whatever it is to unlock your levels/skills, then if you suck it relocks them? wouldnt make too much sense. Anyhow making people fear dying doesnt stop newbs from dying, look at ffxi quifim, kazham, i rem when we first played, we basically new to get extra exp, because chances are we would die going back to kahzam, only way to avoid that was to be rdm, or have prisms, which at that level and time, no one had money for, and wasnt even sold as often. Especially this game, it doesnt make sense, they made the monsters tougher knowing you can die. Many mobs stronger than you have some sort of powerful weaponskill that can kill easily. ressurection only has a 1 min cooldown. they know you can die easily here, by being in range of aoe WS, turning the mob, you are much more likely to die in this game, so death penalty is a bad idea. Stopping zerging, and adding a death penalty are two different things.

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Originally Posted by Kimahri

Okay. Let's face the facts. In every single game EVER devoloped, there has been a consequence towards dying or failing a certain aspect of the game. In Super Mario if you were squashed, stomped, chewed, eaten, flamed, or bombed, you either started from the start of the level, or at the checkpoint half-way. In Call Of Duty if you died, you had a delay timer from being respawn and also lost your killstreak. In Batman: Arkham Asylum if Batman got the **** beat out of him, Joker would come out and say, "Haha!" in your face and you'd be forced to try again. On Ace Combat (or whatever I'm thinking of) if your airplane was shot down, you'd be forced to buy another plane in order to replace the one you blew up.

Basically what I'm saying is that in a world of MMO where a lot of you time is based on leveling, it would seem perfectly feasable that XP be lost per death. There must be a consequence for you being irrational and dying stupidly. I've seen so many people go out in Behest and just get ravaged by a group of enemies and then come back to take another 2-3 deaths and lay there while they still gain XP dead. A weakness is good for a consequence, but it needs something more as an incentive to stop people from acting like Baboons when it comes to fighting. It will implore no strategy in the long run. Just keep attacking until you die and still you'll gain XP for it.

I try to get people to see the other end of the spectrum, but you choose to ignore it and rebutal with nothing. It's just along the lines of people's complaints with Call of Duty: Black Ops. If you get shot in the chest or face, there's no way in hell you're getting back up. Make some consequences worth remembrance and bring back a challenge.

P.S. Play on the hardest difficulty on any game. Guaran-damn-tee you that most of the time you get your ass whooped, have limited saves, and you deal less damage to the AI. That's a challenge. Where's FFXIV's?

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The FFXI death penalty didn't make the bad players any better. It also didn't make it's content more challenging or harder.

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Originally Posted by Xzen

The FFXI death penalty didn't make the bad players any better. It also didn't make it's content more challenging or harder.

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This argument holds no weight as challenge by definition is:

• to arouse or stimulate especially by presenting with difficulties

(Merriam-Webster)

The risk and consequences of dying in XI is the difficulty by which players were presented a challenging WIN/LOSE scenario by which through whatever means necessary: you didn't want to die and desired victory. So yes having something to lose is stimulating and therefore challenging.

Difficulty by definition is:

• something difficult: impediment

(Merriam-Webster)

Dying in any game (and its consequences) impedes progress towards a winning scenario. The impediment of dying with a penalty certainly did raise the level of difficulty in scenarios that would otherwise take no thinking before action. That is why an R1 mob outside of a city isn't hard or challenging in comparison to a boss fight to end an entire expansion/mission line. In the same sense that fights got easier in XI when exp loss in certain instances was removed. At that point you could try just about anything without real thought or strategy to win and it wouldn't matter how many times it didn't work, as long as one attempt did.

It is hard to argue either way that all novices benefit from learning curves and death penalties. What cannot be denied is that having consequences in place will certainly help players realize their mistakes and attempt to correct them. Even as basic as dodging aggro or pulling too much enmity. A childhood 'timeout' of 150 seconds weakened alone can never achieve a true WIN/LOSE scenario, instead it's WIN/WIN which gives me no satisfaction. Think candy from a baby...

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Originally Posted by Boricua

This argument holds no weight as challenge by definition is:

• to arouse or stimulate especially by presenting with difficulties

(Merriam-Webster)

The risk and consequences of dying in XI is the difficulty by which players were presented a challenging WIN/LOSE scenario by which through whatever means necessary: you didn't want to die and desired victory. So yes having something to lose is stimulating and therefore challenging.

Difficulty by definition is:

• something difficult: impediment

(Merriam-Webster)

Dying in any game (and its consequences) impedes progress towards a winning scenario. The impediment of dying with a penalty certainly did raise the level of difficulty in scenarios that would otherwise take no thinking before action. That is why an R1 mob outside of a city isn't hard or challenging in comparison to a boss fight to end an entire expansion/mission line. In the same sense that fights got easier in XI when exp loss in certain instances was removed. At that point you could try just about anything without real thought or strategy to win and it wouldn't matter how many times it didn't work, as long as one attempt did.

It is hard to argue either way that all novices benefit from learning curves and death penalties. What cannot be denied is that having consequences in place will certainly help players realize their mistakes and attempt to correct them. Even as basic as dodging aggro or pulling too much enmity. A childhood 'timeout' of 150 seconds weakened alone can never achieve a true WIN/LOSE scenario, instead it's WIN/WIN which gives me no satisfaction. Think candy from a baby...

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But the death penalty did not make any of the content more difficult or have any bearing on how hard an NM was. It also had no effect on me not wanting to die or how much I enjoyed downing an NM or completing a storyline. That is something that is completely subjective and does not apply to everyone. What it boils down to for myself is "what is consuming my time in these games?" is it actual content or is it flaws in game design or superficial game mechanics(the original market place that we had is right there with the harsh death penalty in my book).

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Originally Posted by Xzen

But the death penalty did not make any of the content more difficult or have any bearing on how hard an NM was. It also had no effect on me not wanting to die or how much I enjoyed downing an NM or completing a storyline. That is something that is completely subjective and does not apply to everyone. What it boils down to for myself is "what is consuming my time in these games?" is it actual content or is it flaws in game design or superficial game mechanics(the original market place that we had is right there with the harsh death penalty in my book).

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Let's assume for the sake of argument that you're right for a moment and say that a death penalty doesn't make one any better at the game. If that were so, why even bother having to home point? After all, "what a waste of time having to run all the way back." And if that were the case, would players, then, also not be improving at the game? How about having automatic reraise on everyone at all times? Would the community reach the same skill level in years to come? If death was merely a five second delay in whatever it was that we were doing? Why even take damage from mob attacks?

Obviously, the death penalty made players much more skilled and much more efficient in whatever it was they were trying to do. In XI my main was BLM and I spent the majority of my best years in that game soloing, duoing, and trioing difficult challenges using skills that I learned (and continued to learn!) out of necessity to avoid death. There is no way, as I see it, that I would of been soloing limbus or Brothers in an environment that did not punish me for making mistakes. Even simple lessons that now seem fundamental, obvious even, were learned with my survival at the forefront of my thinking.

If two identical men on identical lots of land were told to hunt but one was brought food every day and one was threatened with starvation, which would you guess would have become the superior hunter?

No penalty for death just results in a lazy and stupid playerbase, period. You can say that the death penalty did not make NM's more difficult and in some ways that might be correct. When I had Tiamat claimed, I was not necessarily concerned with XP loss and more concerned with looking like a motard in front of a rival linkshell and/or losing claim to another. However, the skills that brought me to Tiamat to begin with were learned much earlier, and learned because there was something on the line.

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Originally Posted by DarthTaru

Let's assume for the sake of argument that you're right for a moment and say that a death penalty doesn't make one any better at the game. If that were so, why even bother having to home point? After all, "what a waste of time having to run all the way back." And if that were the case, would players, then, also not be improving at the game? How about having automatic reraise on everyone at all times? Would the community reach the same skill level in years to come? If death was merely a five second delay in whatever it was that we were doing? Why even take damage from mob attacks?

Obviously, the death penalty made players much more skilled and much more efficient in whatever it was they were trying to do. In XI my main was BLM and I spent the majority of my best years in that game soloing, duoing, and trioing difficult challenges using skills that I learned (and continued to learn!) out of necessity to avoid death. There is no way, as I see it, that I would of been soloing limbus or Brothers in an environment that did not punish me for making mistakes. Even simple lessons that now seem fundamental, obvious even, were learned with my survival at the forefront of my thinking.

If two identical men on identical lots of land were told to hunt but one was brought food every day and one was threatened with starvation, which would you guess would have become the superior hunter?

No penalty for death just results in a lazy and stupid playerbase, period. You can say that the death penalty did not make NM's more difficult and in some ways that might be correct. When I had Tiamat claimed, I was not necessarily concerned with XP loss and more concerned with looking like a motard in front of a rival linkshell and/or losing claim to another. However, the skills that brought me to Tiamat to begin with were learned much earlier, and learned because there was something on the line.

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Slippery slope arguments are a bit tricky. After all, since more severe DPs make more skilled players according to you, by that logic having permanent death should make everyone experts, right? But it doesn't, because you need to be able to experiment, develop your skills and find your niche. Even if it did, only a few people would be willing to put up with that, as evidenced by the amount of players who actually used hardcore mode in Diablo II which did exactly that.

Nothing about DP directly impacts the battle as you fight it. No matter what in FFXI, if you wiped the mob would reset back to full hp. In other words, if you died, you failed, and you had to start over again. This is probably something they should change in FFXIV. I am puzzled as to why the mobs in Guildleves in this game don't reset to full when you wipe--they probably should so you can't grind them down as I have on enemies like cactuars with broken one-shot skills. Hopefully, before they do that they change some enemies to not have one-shot skills, or a much longer interrupt window, before that. I've seriously spammed supposed interrupt skills the second I see them start charging and it still hasn't made it out in time cuz of the laggy game engine...but I digress.

No matter what, in any game you want to avoid death. Even in games like Prince of Persia where you never really "died", you still had to have the skills to advance in order to do so. Taking less time with loading screens etc didn't win the game for you, you still needed to do that on your own. Similarly, the threat of having to spend hours doing boring grinding (mind you, in a game I'm paying for in order to have fun, not give myself a second job) if you die has no impact on actual battles other than making you less willing to take risks like getting into tough battles in the first place. You may say that didn't apply to you, but it certainly did apply to a large amount of FFXI players. More occasions than I can count, I remember LS members and friends not helping out or doing something because they didn't have a buffer, and I was no exception. If you're ignoring the risks and taking on tough challenges, the DP has no effect on you anyway, so that doesn't work either. All it is is a timesink and a relic of a bygone age of MMOs where game developers thought death needed very harsh punishments. Timesinks are, to some extent, necessary for MMOs to stretch their content, but players are much more savvy than they were 8 years ago, and most of us won't tolerate such transparent ones anymore, since they are associated with a lack of content. I have tried over the years to get many MMO players into FFXI, but they refused or tried but couldn't enjoy it for the same reason an xp loss DP is bad: grind. Remember, an MMO is not a professional sport, we're not here to whittle people down until we get champions, the game exists to get as many subscribers as possible because it is a business.

Aside from that, there were MANY bad players on FFXI, being patient enough for XP parties didn't make you a great player any more than driving a lot makes you qualified to race professionally. The skill level was about the same as in other MMOs I've played, although FFXI players are necessarily more polite because of the heavy emphasis on groups--but again, that's not a hard and fast rule either, I've met real jerks on FFXI who nevertheless were also the best geared.

The golden age of MMOs came when some developers realized that harsh penalties and naked grind (I'm going to regret that phrasing) aren't necessary to make a fun, challenging game. I'm willing to put in huge amounts of hours to other MMOs because they mix up the leveling process: quest here, dungeon there, pvp somewhere I don't have to deal with it, etc instead of 4-12 hours straight of killing the same damned mobs in an xp party. They also don't punish you with more grind for death, so players are more willing to experiment, which leads to more adventure and more content played, which leads to more fun. As you play more, and varied, content, you get more experience doing different things besides xp grinding, and you get better at the game. You're an FFXI player, you know as well as I do that XP parties have a different skillset than NMs, so more grind doesn't make you better at that after you learn the basics.

I'll say it again, I had my best times in FFXI when no one in the group was concerned about the death penalty. We took more risks, got less upset at each other for failing, and became better players because of it while enjoying ourselves more. The game was better off when it started deprecating the effects of the death penalty, and this game is better for having such a lenient one. It makes me more willing to help people, to experiment with different builds to find what works best, and to take on difficult content.

Lastly, please don't use the "lazy stupid easy mode" etc catchphrase. I don't mean to personally insult you, but that is like Godwin's Law for game forums: it means the debate is over because the person saying it has no real argument. I'm not "lazy and stupid" for not wanting to spend hours on a meaningless grind every time I want to experience the actual fun part of the game. I've got a job and responsibilities, I have limited time to spend on leisure and I want to make sure I'm enjoying myself when I play a game I'm paying a monthly fee for. It's far from impossible to have a challenging game without forcing players with limited time to spend most of it grinding. Heck, single player games manage it all the time. FFXIII was actually the hardest FF game I've ever played (and I've played all the mainline series and a good amount of the spinoffs) and it had almost no penalty for death, but because a wipe meant I didn't have to waste a lot of time getting back to where I was, I was more willing to put up with it and experiment until i found the right strategy.

tl:dr DP doesn't make players better at the game, actually playing the game does. I have to include these little summaries cuz I have doubts anyone reads my essay-length posts--I am rarely on forums precisely because I take so much time in writing responses, and that's time I'd rather be playing games, but I thought I should comment on this.

Fully agree.

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Originally Posted by DarthTaru

Let's assume for the sake of argument that you're right for a moment and say that a death penalty doesn't make one any better at the game. If that were so, why even bother having to home point? After all, "what a waste of time having to run all the way back." And if that were the case, would players, then, also not be improving at the game? How about having automatic reraise on everyone at all times? Would the community reach the same skill level in years to come? If death was merely a five second delay in whatever it was that we were doing? Why even take damage from mob attacks?

Obviously, the death penalty made players much more skilled and much more efficient in whatever it was they were trying to do. In XI my main was BLM and I spent the majority of my best years in that game soloing, duoing, and trioing difficult challenges using skills that I learned (and continued to learn!) out of necessity to avoid death. There is no way, as I see it, that I would of been soloing limbus or Brothers in an environment that did not punish me for making mistakes. Even simple lessons that now seem fundamental, obvious even, were learned with my survival at the forefront of my thinking.

If two identical men on identical lots of land were told to hunt but one was brought food every day and one was threatened with starvation, which would you guess would have become the superior hunter?

No penalty for death just results in a lazy and stupid playerbase, period. You can say that the death penalty did not make NM's more difficult and in some ways that might be correct. When I had Tiamat claimed, I was not necessarily concerned with XP loss and more concerned with looking like a motard in front of a rival linkshell and/or losing claim to another. However, the skills that brought me to Tiamat to begin with were learned much earlier, and learned because there was something on the line.

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On your story about the two hunters. If the hunter that is given food every day had the desire to become a great hunter he would likely become just as good if not better than the one that doesn't get food.

I met plenty of "lazy and stupid" players in FFXI that managed to fail their way to max level and NM camping and other end game content. The thing that separates FFXI's and FFXIV's community from other light DP games is the great community and not the death penalty. The only thing FFXI has that FFXIV lacks is great content.

If we want this game more like FFXI community and fun wise sad to say we need Tanaka back. One of the things that made XI great was the community everyone who felt ''Making us group together sucks! I rather solo they can leave guild leves in for you. But I personally would like to be forced to work together what is the point of SOLO play in a MMORPG it take's the multi-player out of it. So for everyone who wants a MSORPG FF is not the series for you. The series has ALWAYS been about bands of hero grouping together to crush evil and stay alive. Not one person killing a squirrel. This game does need a lot more FFXI in it, not just XI but FF in general. not for the solo, not for the hardcore, For the FF fan's and them alone. We have stuck with the series through company changes and mergers and welcomed all changes over time. But FFXIV is only a FF in name, Not spirit. So please SE. Listen to the FF fans not the MMORPG or MSORPG fans.

Okay. First of all, Grimm. It was Tanaka's stupidity that brought this game crashing down. He's not the answer. Now I'm going to throw up a quote from Boricua to illustrate a point.

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In the same sense that fights got easier in XI when exp loss in certain instances was removed. At that point you could try just about anything without real thought or strategy to win and it wouldn't matter how many times it didn't work, as long as one attempt did.

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And now; one from DarthTaru to ease Xzen.

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You can say that the death penalty did not make NM's more difficult and in some ways that might be correct. When I had Tiamat claimed, I was not necessarily concerned with XP loss and more concerned with looking like a motard in front of a rival linkshell and/or losing claim to another. However, the skills that brought me to Tiamat to begin with were learned much earlier, and learned because there was something on the line.

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Now. What we have here are two examples as to what it's like with the death penalty, and what it's like without. I'm going to go ahead and tell you, Xzen, the most perfect example. Besieged. That is the one instance I can recall that first started the no death penalty in an instanced area.

If you remember with me, you'll recall that just like what Boricua and DeathTaru are saying, there is no skill, difficulty, or challenge from Besieged. At least not to me. I was from the Siren server and I don't know if they are anymore, but when I left we had never lost a Besieged. The only thing I can say about Besieged is that when you were KO'd and got back up, what did you do? I seen so many people jump back up and continue to fight knowing they'd die again soon, but at least they'd still get experience. A no death penalty will implore people to not care as long as the enemy is taken down. They could get up and die twenty more times as long as it receives the desired effect from doing so. In your own words I suppose, Xzen, newbs will continue to stay newbs and turn into noobs for not recognizing their own mistakes from earlier. I was a Galka and leveled BLM by myself. I knew when first starting that I'd have to be on my toes and be the best. I ended up a great BLM for a Galka. Rather sad though that a nearly naked Tarutaru was doing more damage than me in Bibiki Bay.....And I had on a hell of a lot of MAB & INT gear.

All I'm saying is that no death penalty in terms of exp loss towards this game would cripple it in terms of strategy and challenges. Down the line you'll see people that die in XP groups and stay dead until they get the EXP from the mob, Return, and then run back to fight the other enemy the group is facing with no thought of consequences. Oh. By the way OJTheLionKing.....I played Diablo II a long time ago. In terms of devoloping skills? There was no such thing when playing the AI in Hardcore. It always ended up being a Paladin using his Holy Hammers to obliterate anything. Now in terms of PvP your statement is correct. Lot of people trying out different combinations. Diablo II in your example isn't evidence to your claim. You just half-assed it like most people do.

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Originally Posted by Kimahri

Okay. First of all, Grimm. It was Tanaka's stupidity that brought this game crashing down. He's not the answer. Now I'm going to throw up a quote from Boricua to illustrate a point.

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Yes it was Tanaka but it was also Tanaka who gave us everything we loved about XI. Now I think and Hope Yoshi will finally wake up and realize this is a FF not just any MMO. I feel like as of now they are treating it like a random MMO with no namesake. FOR GODS SAKE SE GO BACK TO WHAT YOU HAVE DONE IN THE PAST 20 YEARS OF FF It does not have to be a new Idea to be new! Build off the countless ideas you had and mix them. The main problem is for me they are treating it like the FF series does not already have a fan base as if it is a new game to everyone hence it was built like one. The only thing FF about this game right now is the Mogs and a few mobs and they are rare.

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Originally Posted by Kimahri

Okay. First of all, Grimm. It was Tanaka's stupidity that brought this game crashing down. He's not the answer. Now I'm going to throw up a quote from Boricua to illustrate a point.



And now; one from DarthTaru to ease Xzen.



Now. What we have here are two examples as to what it's like with the death penalty, and what it's like without. I'm going to go ahead and tell you, Xzen, the most perfect example. Besieged. That is the one instance I can recall that first started the no death penalty in an instanced area.

If you remember with me, you'll recall that just like what Boricua and DeathTaru are saying, there is no skill, difficulty, or challenge from Besieged. At least not to me. I was from the Siren server and I don't know if they are anymore, but when I left we had never lost a Besieged. The only thing I can say about Besieged is that when you were KO'd and got back up, what did you do? I seen so many people jump back up and continue to fight knowing they'd die again soon, but at least they'd still get experience. A no death penalty will implore people to not care as long as the enemy is taken down. They could get up and die twenty more times as long as it receives the desired effect from doing so. In your own words I suppose, Xzen, newbs will continue to stay newbs and turn into noobs for not recognizing their own mistakes from earlier. I was a Galka and leveled BLM by myself. I knew when first starting that I'd have to be on my toes and be the best. I ended up a great BLM for a Galka. Rather sad though that a nearly naked Tarutaru was doing more damage than me in Bibiki Bay.....And I had on a hell of a lot of MAB & INT gear.

All I'm saying is that no death penalty in terms of exp loss towards this game would cripple it in terms of strategy and challenges. Down the line you'll see people that die in XP groups and stay dead until they get the EXP from the mob, Return, and then run back to fight the other enemy the group is facing with no thought of consequences. Oh. By the way OJTheLionKing.....I played Diablo II a long time ago. In terms of devoloping skills? There was no such thing when playing the AI in Hardcore. It always ended up being a Paladin using his Holy Hammers to obliterate anything. Now in terms of PvP your statement is correct. Lot of people trying out different combinations. Diablo II in your example isn't evidence to your claim. You just half-assed it like most people do.

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While I agree with your example I would also argue that the problem with besieged was a flaw in how it was designed. Even though there was no DP I found ways to solo in Besieged without dieing and got a lot more than you do if you run in like an idiot without thinking. For some people getting better at something comes from a desire to become good at it and not from fear of loss. Newbs will get better as long as they want to get better. Also people already die in groups and stay dead until the mobs are cleared so they get SP. Simple fix is to make it so they don't gain SP while they are dead.

Just to add the great community that was in FFXI is already here. All the "riff raff" that nobody wanted in this game left within the first month. So we don't even need the DP to keep them away.

OJtheLIONKing:

Lazy & stupid is fair game. The number of alleged endgame linkshells on my server with absolutely no concept of even fundamental Battle Regimen mechanics is truly astonishing. They haven't learned because they don't care because when they wipe to an NM it doesn't really matter to them. Sometimes they manage to button mash it down and get a drop, sometimes they rage it and wipe. I cannot see how some sort of meaningful death penalty might help drive them to learn how to play.

Another example of how a lack of a death penalty influences gameplay is the punishing barbs tactic where a few THMs continually attack an enemy with barbs up, wipe, respawn, and charge back in. Pretty lame stuff.

My original post was not meant to be an argument for XP loss, per say, but that's where the direction of the conversation has headed. So be it.

FFXI was slower paced and more tactical in many ways than XIV's more action oriented feel. Under the current battle system, grind system, and leve system, an XP penalty would be more irritating than in XI, i'll grant you that. However, something needs to be implemented to eliminate the suicide zerg tactics as well as motivate people to stay alive.
Perhaps removing equipment damage in general but adding severe equipment damage for death would be a suitable alternative. Something, though, for sure. The for crowd and against crowd have made their points. At this point it's all becoming redundant.

I'd like to add, though (again), that the XP penalty for death in XI brought the world to life. When I saw someone running for their life from a mob (or a train of mobs) it was compassion that would drive me to make the effort to help them, even putting myself at risk to do so. I have yet to encounter a similar situation in XIV. This is partly the fault of the bland and boring and uneventful land of Eorzea, but also due to there being no penalty for death. Without the death penalty there is no thrill for victory. It's all just mechanical. Kill mob, get drop, move on.

My main gripe with XIV is like I said earlier - nothing is on the line, nothing really matters, the world is bland.
When tanking Uraeus i've actually gone AFK while petrified to get a glass of milk and returned to find I was still alive and I still had hate, as I suspected would be the case before leaving my PC. Now how's that for lame?

The only incentive i've had in this game to make improvements in strategy is in how to use less and less people to kill NMs and kill them faster.

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Originally Posted by DarthTaru

OJtheLIONKing:

Lazy & stupid is fair game. The number of alleged endgame linkshells on my server with absolutely no concept of even fundamental Battle Regimen mechanics is truly astonishing. They haven't learned because they don't care because when they wipe to an NM it doesn't really matter to them. Sometimes they manage to button mash it down and get a drop, sometimes they rage it and wipe. I cannot see how some sort of meaningful death penalty might help drive them to learn how to play.

Another example of how a lack of a death penalty influences gameplay is the punishing barbs tactic where a few THMs continually attack an enemy with barbs up, wipe, respawn, and charge back in. Pretty lame stuff.

My original post was not meant to be an argument for XP loss, per say, but that's where the direction of the conversation has headed. So be it.

FFXI was slower paced and more tactical in many ways than XIV's more action oriented feel. Under the current battle system, grind system, and leve system, an XP penalty would be more irritating than in XI, i'll grant you that. However, something needs to be implemented to eliminate the suicide zerg tactics as well as motivate people to stay alive.
Perhaps removing equipment damage in general but adding severe equipment damage for death would be a suitable alternative. Something, though, for sure. The for crowd and against crowd have made their points. At this point it's all becoming redundant.

I'd like to add, though (again), that the XP penalty for death in XI brought the world to life. When I saw someone running for their life from a mob (or a train of mobs) it was compassion that would drive me to make the effort to help them, even putting myself at risk to do so. I have yet to encounter a similar situation in XIV. This is partly the fault of the bland and boring and uneventful land of Eorzea, but also due to there being no penalty for death. Without the death penalty there is no thrill for victory. It's all just mechanical. Kill mob, get drop, move on.

My main gripe with XIV is like I said earlier - nothing is on the line, nothing really matters, the world is bland.
When tanking Uraeus i've actually gone AFK while petrified to get a glass of milk and returned to find I was still alive and I still had hate, as I suspected would be the case before leaving my PC. Now how's that for lame?

The only incentive i've had in this game to make improvements in strategy is in how to use less and less people to kill NMs and kill them faster.

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I pretty much agree with everything aside from the death penalty adding anything but I admit that is completely subjective. One thing about the BRs. They suck and aren't worth the time to use and the NMs are ridiculously easy. Especially now that they have been nerfed. We were taking them down with only 8 people before why did they make them less challenging? The problem isn't with the lack of harsh death penalty by far. The actual content is both sparse and too easy.

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Originally Posted by DarthTaru

OJtheLIONKing:







I'd like to add, though (again), that the XP penalty for death in XI brought the world to life. When I saw someone running for their life from a mob (or a train of mobs) it was compassion that would drive me to make the effort to help them, even putting myself at risk to do so. I have yet to encounter a similar situation in XIV. This is partly the fault of the bland and boring and uneventful land of Eorzea, but also due to there being no penalty for death. Without the death penalty there is no thrill for victory. It's all just mechanical. Kill mob, get drop, move on.

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This 100% I don't know how many times I felt I had to save someone as a PLD when they /help on a mob or agroed even if it cost me my own life. But then again that also shows how close the community factor was in XI compared to XIV where the only way to see a community is to join a LS. I had so many friends out side of LSes in XI. In XIV I have maybe 1 or 2. The community system is flawed in XIV I think due to leve's and no penalty on death. I remember a old interview about XIV where Tanaka said the concept of XIV was not party, camp, and pull. It was party, move, and fight. Fighting on the move with strategy WHERE IS THAT ASPECT?!.

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Originally Posted by Grimm

This 100% I don't know how many times I felt I had to save someone as a PLD when they /help on a mob or agroed even if it cost me my own life. But then again that also shows how close the community factor was in XI compared to XIV where the only way to see a community is to join a LS. I had so many friends out side of LSes in XI. In XIV I have maybe 1 or 2. The community system is flawed in XIV I think due to leve's and no penalty on death. I remember a old interview about XIV where Tanaka said the concept of XIV was not party, camp, and pull. It was party, move, and fight. Fighting on the move with strategy WHERE IS THAT ASPECT?!.

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Ummm I have seen the exact thing you are saying does not happen in XIV happen several times. I've had people in my groups stop to heal some one that was soloing a leve. I've seen people stop and raise people. When I personally heal some one thats in trouble I have asked them if they needed some help on their leve or with what ever they were doing. I've had some one do the same for me. Maybe it's just a bad community on your server?

Okay. I thought this was funny and since it just happened I was thinking to myself; "What better an example than this?"

I just completed Behest in Nanawa Mines. Antling & Bog were the targets. Some douchebag Gladiator ran into the lair and pulled the group of Antling's in the middle of the mine......Which in turn pulled all the Gnat's, Yarzon's, and Footpads........When I asked him why the hell he did that when there was a group closer to us, he said "Who cares? It's not like we lost any XP/SP."

This is what I'm talking about. People are acting like zombies when it comes to leveling up or anything else. They're pulling and killing like a rinse & repeat cycle. Now do you see how I feel, Xzen? There isn't no strategy. Even if you and your linkshell have used XI as a reference to build your own strategy, there are many many many people who just don't give a damn as long as their level increases. It'll only get worse.

Yeah linkshells are terrible in this game for that reason, if you join a random one and go out and do nms with them they will most likely not be proficient in battle regimens, and if they are they will only use defense down, even on a mob that could easily be nuked down.

You know one thing I'd like to talk about is the XP/SP you gain per mob. Is it just me, or does it seem less than what you received in XI? I remember that Even Match resulted in guaranteed 100 XP in XI.....I just fought a level 34 Coblyn in Nanawa Mines which is considered an Even Match in XI's terms and I'm level 29 Gladiator.......76 XP/SP.......Does that also strike you as odd? Let's not mention the fact that at Level 30-31 the to next level was 5,800 XP.....Now in FFXIV it's 38,000! Can someone tell me what Dev tag to file this under so I can write about it? It's just insane the low XP/SP you get for solo.

I don't think anyone could have said it better..

Speaking of Gigas though, I'd like to see them in Coerthas =x

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Originally Posted by DarthTaru

where, acts of individual bravery for the sake of their friends manage to see them all through alive.

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I remember my many acts of bravery.. They usually ended up with me kiting aggro away from the party and winding up dead 80% of the time lol.. Good times.

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Originally Posted by Kimahri

Okay. I thought this was funny and since it just happened I was thinking to myself; "What better an example than this?"

I just completed Behest in Nanawa Mines. Antling & Bog were the targets. Some douchebag Gladiator ran into the lair and pulled the group of Antling's in the middle of the mine......Which in turn pulled all the Gnat's, Yarzon's, and Footpads........When I asked him why the hell he did that when there was a group closer to us, he said "Who cares? It's not like we lost any XP/SP."

This is what I'm talking about. People are acting like zombies when it comes to leveling up or anything else. They're pulling and killing like a rinse & repeat cycle. Now do you see how I feel, Xzen? There isn't no strategy. Even if you and your linkshell have used XI as a reference to build your own strategy, there are many many many people who just don't give a damn as long as their level increases. It'll only get worse.

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But I've seen people do the exact same thing in FFXI and not even care. That guy would be an idiot regardless.

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Originally Posted by zaviermhigo

Yeah linkshells are terrible in this game for that reason, if you join a random one and go out and do nms with them they will most likely not be proficient in battle regimens, and if they are they will only use defense down, even on a mob that could easily be nuked down.

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BRs are worthless. They need to come up with something better.

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Originally Posted by Xzen

BRs are worthless. They need to come up with something better.

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How are they worthless? If you can manage an 8 man, its devastating..

I think what he means is, why waste time coordinating a BR when he can just mindlessly button mash for 30min until it rages and wipes the party. Then he will just get right up and try again. What you need to understand when arguing with someone like this is that they just simply DON'T get it, and never will. Performing the same action, over and over and expecting a different result is the very definition of insanity, yet I see it all the time in this game as well as other games that a drunk mongoloid can not only survive in, but shamefully actually accomplish something in. We can try to pound the reasons upon them but they just turn a deaf ear like most of the younger generation is prone to. If its not handed to me, its not worth having.

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Originally Posted by Filtiarne

I think what he means is, why waste time coordinating a BR when he can just mindlessly button mash for 30min until it rages and wipes the party. Then he will just get right up and try again. What you need to understand when arguing with someone like this is that they just simply DON'T get it, and never will. Performing the same action, over and over and expecting a different result is the very definition of insanity, yet I see it all the time in this game as well as other games that a drunk mongoloid can not only survive in, but shamefully actually accomplish something in. We can try to pound the reasons upon them but they just turn a deaf ear like most of the younger generation is prone to. If its not handed to me, its not worth having.

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My LS has no problems taking down any of the NMs. If you think you need BRs to take them down you probably haven't even fought one. I've also been around since UO launched playing MMOs. I made it clear that SE needs to either make the BRs better or give us something else. A personal attack just shows you have run out of any real points. I've even seen the people with no skill manage to make it to end game in FFXI. If you're as hardcore as you like to pretend why not just delete your character to perma-death it every time you die? By your logic you don't because you're a sissy that wants everything handed to them.

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Originally Posted by Xzen

My LS has no problems taking down any of the NMs. If you think you need BRs to take them down you probably haven't even fought one. I've also been around since UO launched playing MMOs. I made it clear that SE needs to either make the BRs better or give us something else. A personal attack just shows you have run out of any real points. I've even seen the people with no skill manage to make it to end game in FFXI. If you're as hardcore as you like to pretend why not just delete your character to perma-death it every time you die? By your logic you don't because you're a sissy that wants everything handed to them.

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Well, as far as i'm concerned, you've just exposed yourself. I've watched the linkshells on my servers that don't know / do Battle Regimens on NMs and it's sloppy and ineffecient, and half the time they rage unless they were in a full alliance of 16, all button mashing heavy attack for the 29 minute win. You've just validated everything we've been saying.
Everyone involved in this thread that was also killing the NMs in a timely manner (pre-nerf) with low numbers of people knows now exactly what kind of player you are. You have revealed yourself.

Darthtaru's story reminds me of when I first heard about FFXi, and when it came out, I actually didn't hear great things about it. (I honestly can't remember why though, it was so long ago). Being a FF fan, I wanted to play it but just didn't because of things I heard. However, many years later my current boyfriend showed me FFXI, he showed me all the areas, jobs, magic, summons, battles, and even with that probly still left out a lot. But when he showed me I was like "holy s*** what have I been missing all these years??" *sadface*

So with seeing FFXI, I wanted to try out FFXIV, and I agree that it's definitely not the same..although I do like FFXIV, since it's my first MMO I guess, I still feel like so much is missing from it. Thank you for posting this darthtaru

I laughed pretty hard at the no BR's during a NM fight comment. Someone should tell him that the new batch of NM's don't really count.

Been killing NMs since the day they were put in game. We also don't get anywhere close to 30 min rage timer. We even low manned the NMs before the nerf with little effort.

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Originally Posted by DarthTaru

Well, as far as i'm concerned, you've just exposed yourself. I've watched the linkshells on my servers that don't know / do Battle Regimens on NMs and it's sloppy and ineffecient, and half the time they rage unless they were in a full alliance of 16, all button mashing heavy attack for the 29 minute win. You've just validated everything we've been saying.
Everyone involved in this thread that was also killing the NMs in a timely manner (pre-nerf) with low numbers of people knows now exactly what kind of player you are. You have revealed yourself.

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The NMs are pathetic even pre-nerf with 8 people. Now that they have been "rebalanced" for 8 person parties they are even easier. Again the personal attacks are all straw man tactics.

As in, the #2 ranked Marauder on Fabul? That kind of person?

Again degenerating to personal attacks just shows social ineptness and that's all. Why don't you actually provide some information to try and prove a point on the subject? Or better yet since we seem to be on the subject why not provide some hard numbers to back your claim that the BRs add to the overall DPS even with the time it takes to get everyones skills queued up as compared to using your attacks and abilities without that time you stood there doing nothing while people queue up?