Tanaka performed his job admirably, working with what he had 7 years ago and all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Abriael
FFXIV-- the fear of a WoW Clone is real...
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11-13-2012, 11:07 AMValmonte
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11-13-2012, 11:08 AMstrallaalaaswtor did well cause of it's name and what it is. gw2 is part 2 of a mmo that did well, it fed off of that and now is dying out every day with less and less people playing, zones emptying out. it's one thing looking at competition it's another trying to make the quick buck off of a part 2 of a franchise. ffxiv is part of a series and it still went from million sales to what 100k people tops playing by the end? all games, even movies and tv shows are using a good series and keep rehashing new ones ...watch e3 and it's part 2 part3 part 4 of ever series. but in the end ..in a mmo they got the fast buck and now the mmo dies out. if they keep dying out then there isn't anything truely solid to take from them since you need to take from games that haven't gone F2P in a year or 2. say like there own mmo ffxi.Quote:
Originally Posted by Abriael
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11-13-2012, 11:08 AMAbriaelLOL. Tell me you're just trolling please. There's a limit to complete blindness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valmonte
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11-13-2012, 11:11 AMstrallaalaahis mistake was the same one made for the whole company, launching early, working with a broken server, not the game and the concepts that they created for it. if they handed tanaka the game now he would probably make a better mmo then yoshi hands down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Abriael
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11-13-2012, 11:12 AMAbriaelA good developer, especially one in a leading role, has the ability to take in consideration ALL relevant games, one way or another.Quote:
Originally Posted by strallaalaa
Open mindedness is one of the most important traits for a producer and for a game director (and Yoshida is both). Luckily he doesn't reflect some elements on this forum, otherwise ARR would be another unmitigated disaster like FFXIV was.
No. His mistake was being completely oblivious of the market standards (by his own direct ammission), that completely left him behind.Quote:
Originally Posted by strallaalaa
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11-13-2012, 11:12 AMValmontei'll take hyperbolic over egocentrism anyday...mate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Abriael
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11-13-2012, 11:14 AMAbriaelYou mean the egocentrism that goes around spamming the forum telling that every other MMO is bad, while one of the MMORPGs that failed the hardest in the history of the genre was the result of a "job performed admirably"?Quote:
Originally Posted by Valmonte
Please.
You have no idea of how relieved I am knowing the fact that you two don't work on this game.Quote:
Originally Posted by strallaalaa
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11-13-2012, 11:14 AMstrallaalaa
the only thing standard in a mmo these days is knowing how to take every dollar from the casual tards that are left to play them.
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11-13-2012, 11:18 AMZyph>Taking moneyQuote:
Originally Posted by strallaalaa
>From casuals
Sir I don't think you know the purpose of cash shops. -
11-13-2012, 11:20 AMWynn
Let's just stop comparing games to other games and let them stand on their own merits.
All games borrow or take inspiration from games in the past. They have to. You shouldn't reinvent the wheel in many cases. It doesn't make them clones. Even Rift, arguably the closest to a real clone you can get, has significant differences from WoW.
As long as at the end of the day we can play XIV and agree we are playing a game that feels like Final Fantasy, that is all that matters. And since I sincerely doubt that this is not their number one goal, especially since Yoshi-P has outright said so, I have no worries going forward that this will just be WoW with a FF skin. -
11-13-2012, 11:22 AMColvin
You know what's funny? All the hating on WoW. WoW Isn't really my cup of tea (ive played it). But it is still the top performing app. As a business I would expect them to do what they can to identify the wants of WoW players and build to that. Those of us who have played this and FFXI and pretend that it is better because we do things differently are just hurting the bottom line for SE. At this point, as long as the game is something I can do with my friends for fun with an *optional* side of difficulty for the few who want it, Ill be happy with ARR.
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11-13-2012, 11:23 AMColvinI think I can get behind that!Quote:
Originally Posted by Wynn
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11-13-2012, 11:25 AMDeakka
Another one of these threads?
Really, I thought we were past this. If you want XIV to stay like FFXI, then there's this really awesome game you should play. It's called FFXI.
I'm all for having a modern UI, solo content, responsive controls, and fast gameplay. I'm not in favor of having FFXI in high definition. The game is old, and while through rose-colored glasses it's still an amazing memory, it's past it's prime. If you had to play a game identical to FFXI without the FF logo, I can guarantee you it'd be shut down within a month and lambasted by players, critics, and the industry within a month. -
11-13-2012, 11:29 AMColvinincidentally, they are going through a complete UI and interface overhaul so FFXI will be more mouse friendly. They wont be rolling this functionality out to PS2 obviously. I can find an article on it if you need.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deakka
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11-13-2012, 11:30 AMValmonteI do, as Ive seen how games like this end up and its usually for the worst, on rare occasions there is a game that's failure has actually boosted its status.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wynn
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11-13-2012, 11:37 AMstrallaalaa
i'm thinking it will depend on how ffxiv launch goes, weather the population rises or not if large scale end game like crystal towers becomes a huge rave then they will probably focus on the path of things like that, even if game failing or not they will probably follow the crowd and i think even now people will bitch that they finish off the 8man stuff way quick and things will move fluidly towards a mmo that is gettign harder and harder not other way around. same with anything wow'ish vs say ffxi'ish. as your playing we will realize it's going in one direction or the other more.
you may say it will stay balanced but numbers will drop quick no matter what they do and they will do what they need to do. following the wow band wagon though i think is a sucky way to go. besides that they have alot of people still playing that are all huge ffxi vets that no matter what they can keep just by not being wow. -
11-13-2012, 11:53 AMTeakwood
While I haven't really found GW2 to be compelling enough to keep me playing consistently, taking design cues from GW2 a) is a really good thing for us, not a bad thing, because GW2 is designed very intelligently even if I don't agree with particular implementation details and b) has absolutely nothing to do with "ZOMG WOW CLONE", have you even played GW2?
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11-13-2012, 11:56 AMArcell
You know, there's a difference between keeping up with your competitors and being a WoW clone. I think that terms gets thrown around too often and too easily. MMOs, as part of the same game genre, are going to be similar to a degree. This is not a bad thing. These similarities are often systems that ended up working well or for the best.
I'm not worried unless ARR ends up being a literal WoW clone with better graphics. I don't see that happening. -
11-13-2012, 12:23 PMHeavens
After all the passion and hard work Naoki Yoshida has put into this game so far with his team, the fear of a "WoW clone" really crossed your mind?
I think someone has some self-reflecting to do. -
11-13-2012, 12:25 PMValmontetrue enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcell
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11-13-2012, 01:37 PMshanvhere
If it's a wow clone, I will do what I did with Rift, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2, EQ2, uninstall, rant about it buy another game.
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11-13-2012, 02:42 PMAlerith
Wait...
Allied Forces of Altana vs The Beastmen Hordes....
Allied...vs....Horde....
Alliance vs Horde....
OMFG FFXI WAS A WOW CLONE!!! -
11-13-2012, 03:25 PMXmbeilolol well playedQuote:
Originally Posted by Alerith
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11-13-2012, 03:53 PMbobbygunzQuote:
Originally Posted by Darkhaund
Well just thank god they're playing Guild Wars 2 and SWTOR and expanding their horizons. Maybe eventually they'll get around to a good game/MMO and begin to copy that for a change.
Sometimes you really get a sense that Yoshi and the devs don't really understand the market, and that's an observation made from the fact that they go around saying the global standard is still WoW, and that's just not true anymore, and especially won't be true with some upcoming games, especially some good sandbox games coming out of Korea.
SE are adamant that they cannot be original in terms of gameplay, and that all they want to do is imitate the standard with some "FF feel" thrown in, so it's good they are expanding their horizons by seeing what else is out their beyond WoW, even if for now it's only Guild Wars 2. Maybe it will encourage them to evolve on their fetch quest and dungeon raid standard they still believe exists. -
11-13-2012, 05:58 PMYrusama
People forget about the features we already had:
Not every MMO lets you change classes, let alone anytime you want and between different versions of them (job/class). In many games you'd have to make a new character to play something new.
Not every MMO has a system for enhancing gear at great risk (although XI has the Augment system).
Not every MMO has a 25-year-old fanbase it can appeal to with franchise themes. I know Warcraft is a pretty old franchise, but as far as I've seen it doesn't have the number and variety of games FF has to draw ideas from.
Not every MMO has that Japanese style of creepy-cute you see in Snurbles, Goobbues, and the Moogle fight. Some of SE's designs are reminiscent of Pokemon. It's charming, damnit!
In any case, my point is that people on these forums focus very heavily on what SE will do to make XIV the same as other MMOs, and seem to have forgotten how much SE has done to make XIV unique. The novelties may have worn off for us, but I'm sure new players will find them exciting. I, for one, have that excitement renewed when I see someone else experiencing it for the first time. -
11-13-2012, 06:00 PMRuisu
Pretty sure they played SWTOR and GW2 as an example of how not to make a game.
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11-13-2012, 06:01 PMYrusama
I'm probably going to get flamed now. Whatever. I'm going back to XI so I can continue mourning my mini-map.
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11-13-2012, 07:38 PMValmontewe'll call it the Wada torturing device.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruisu
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11-13-2012, 08:06 PMDannythmWada force them to play hutball over and over.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valmonte
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11-13-2012, 08:59 PMYellow
What SWTOR and GW2 have that Final Fantasy XIV didn't, was a nice, smooth UI, and movement that were all really responsive.
The rest of those two games were just meh~ -
11-13-2012, 09:28 PMcaskerWere you not around for the 1 second delay fiasco with TOR.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yellow
And gw2, despite supposedly being geared for lower end machines, still doesn't run very well. -
11-13-2012, 09:35 PMVelhartHow many times must this dead horse of a topic be beaten?Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkhaund
Yoshida has explained several times why he approaching the game this way and he is absolutely right.
You know, if we go by the logic of the people in this forum, Chrono Trigger is clearly a clone of Final Fantasy IV. Final Fantasy is a clone of Dragon Quest. Ohh hell, any turn based JRPG is a clone of Dragon Quest. -
11-13-2012, 09:47 PMPreypacer
I think part of the problem here is that people on both sides are jumping to the most extreme examples of their argument, neither of which need be the case.
On one side, you have people saying "I hope they're not taking ideas directly from WoW because it will just end up being WoW in a FF skin". On the other you have them saying, "They should be copying WoW. If you want FFXI, go back to FFXI".
This is why so many discussions turn into ugly arguments and go nowhere, because each side is throwing out these exaggerated remarks that represent the most extreme case on either side. Few people around here, it seems, ever acknowledges that vast middle-ground that exists between the extremes.
I'd say that, among this community, the whole "stop trying to make this game FFXI" thing is as abused and misused a rebuttal as the "wow clone" remarks are. There's an amazing amount of double-standards and selective criticism in that category.
Talk about borrowing ideas wholesale from WoW, TOR, GW2 or any other post-WoW MMO, and people are just fine and dandy with that. Suggest that even one single feature from FFXI be implemented, and people freak out, "stop trying to turn this into FFXI!". It's a ridiculously one-sided and exaggerated reaction. It's completely irrational. Folks, FFXI has done well for SE. That MMO has been going for 10+ years now - far longer than some of the other games people will readily suggest they copy ideas from - and is still going strong with a new expansion being released. That's nothing to scoff or snort at. Whatever your personal feelings are about the game, they have been doing something right to have accomplished that.
It's completely hypocritical to sit there saying "they should look to other MMOs for inspiration", openly suggest they look to WoW, or TOR, or GW2 or whatever, by adapting ideas from those games... but then freak out and say "GTFO!" when someone suggests something from FFXI - a successful MMO that's been out longer than any of them.
So can we knock it off with the "WoW clone" and "trying to turn the game into FFXI" remarks? Please? Neither side is scoring any kind of points by making those kinds of remarks.
For myself, I have no problem with them using aspects of WoW-type games that make for a smoother and more accessible gameplay experience. My concern is that they dip too much into WoW's (increasingly) shallow challenge curve and adapt the excessive hand-holding, and rewarding the player for every little thing they do. The former turns the game into an experience where you're forever on training wheels, right up 'til level cap. The latter experience feels extremely patronizing, like they're constantly bribing me to continue playing their game. Don't undermine the adventure of going through the game, experiencing the storylines and all the content by making leveling go by absurdly fast. And please, no freaking cash shops selling in-game items. If it's in the game, it should be obtainable in the game, by playing the game. Those are my key requests/concerns.
I feel like the difficulty in FFXIV was just about right. I wouldn't mind it a bit tougher than 1.0 was. Regular quests were challenging enough for the most part; some felt far too easy, and some others felt like you were given them at too low a level. But mostly, to me, they felt just about right. Boss fights were sufficiently difficult in that it wasn't a guaranteed win on the first or second try (unless you were with a perfectly seasoned group who could do them with their eyes closed, or got lucky). If it's supposed to be a tough fight against a major character/enemy in the game, I expect to die at least a few times to them, and that's okay.
I don't want FFXIV to be punishingly difficult. I just don't want it to be a stroll in the park, either. -
11-13-2012, 09:53 PMlepton
I don't think WoW will be so much the competition as the upcoming Elder Scrolls MMO. Those are the two I think will be battling it out in 2013.
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11-13-2012, 09:55 PMFated
It's been real ever since SE promoted a person who had more experience with WoW than he did with Final Fantasy to the director position.
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11-13-2012, 10:02 PMMStowastiqVahlshdehI think that if they went through the trouble to listen to the base enough to remake the whole entire game that we stand a great chance that they will fix the new one too if we dislike it that much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkhaund
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11-13-2012, 10:13 PMPreypacerHe's familiar with WoW, yes. But his favorite MMO is/was Dark Age of Camelot - which is decidedly not World of Warcraft.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fated
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11-13-2012, 11:48 PMNakiamiieDon't they play that to broaden their thought process, what is good and what is not, then build something better for ARR. That's what I'd do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkhaund
Nope. I'm not worried. -
11-14-2012, 12:32 AMLum
Doesn't matter, i doubt they could make it any worse than it already is.
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11-14-2012, 12:32 AMSeirra_Lanzce
GW2 doesn't play like WoW does, to compare it is like comparing apple and orange, same goes to FFXIV.