Marriage feedback [inofficial Poll]

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Originally Posted by Kuzak

Why can't you just role play your own ceremony? Why do you need the game to validate your lifestyle?

I really wish people would keep politics out of gaming.

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It is so much more than politics and a lifestyle being "validated". I'm assuming you have no idea what it's like to be discriminated against for who you are.

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Originally Posted by KiriA500

Missing the point entirely. It's the fact that it's purposely being left out.

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Really? Well, that's just hilarious.

There is no discrimination at work here.

Marriage is a sacrament going back many thousands of years binding a man and woman together - supposedly permanently, but nowadays we like to cheapen the meaning of marriage - into wedlock where they are exclusive to one another, and form the core of the human familial unit.

A homosexual pairing can not accomplish this. It has no reproductive value. It is not the same thing, nor should it be treated as such, no matter how much the "gender identity" politics/wishcasting of the world may change.

You don't even have to be religious to realize how this rails against nature itself. Darwinism also precludes this idea, and recognizes it as ultimately self-destructive to the race. Why should it be honored as is actual marriage?

Not that anyone honors it anymore, but we won't make any societal progress by doubling down on that.

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Originally Posted by Eagleheart

There is no discrimination at work here.

Marriage is a sacrament going back many thousands of years binding a man and woman together - supposedly permanently, but nowadays we like to cheapen the meaning of marriage - into wedlock where they are exclusive to one another, and form the core of the human familial unit.

A homosexual pairing can not accomplish this. It has no reproductive value. It is not the same thing, nor should it be treated as such, no matter how much the "gender identity" politics/wishcasting of the world may change.

You don't even have to be religious to realize how this rails against nature itself. Darwinism also precludes this idea, and recognizes it as ultimately self-destructive to the race. Why should it be honored as is actual marriage?

Not that anyone honors it anymore, but we won't make any societal progress by doubling down on that.

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I could not agree more. There's nothing 'progressive' about it.

SquareEnix has my respect for leaving gay marriage out of the game.

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Originally Posted by Eagleheart

There is no discrimination at work here.

Marriage is a sacrament going back many thousands of years binding a man and woman together - supposedly permanently, but nowadays we like to cheapen the meaning of marriage - into wedlock where they are exclusive to one another, and form the core of the human familial unit.

A homosexual pairing can not accomplish this. It has no reproductive value. It is not the same thing, nor should it be treated as such, no matter how much the "gender identity" politics/wishcasting of the world may change.

You don't even have to be religious to realize how this rails against nature itself. Darwinism also precludes this idea, and recognizes it as ultimately self-destructive to the race. Why should it be honored as is actual marriage?

Not that anyone honors it anymore, but we won't make any societal progress by doubling down on that.

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Please. Spare me.

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Originally Posted by Priya

And those people would be ignorant, stupid and selfish. I hate marriage; I think the fact it's even recognized outside of a church helps to breed this bigotry, and religion and religious individuals should keep it to themselves.

I think if anyone is against same sex marriage in the real world, then they need to either work towards getting recognized marriage benefits out of our government or grow up and give everyone access; they won't do the former though, that would take away their own perks. Much as you said, my view extends to the game world (although it's even more ridiculous to have anything against same sex marriage in a video game as it has NOTHING to do with benefits); nothing incenses me more than watching people hate other people for reasons so wholly unconnected with them.

For the record, I'm 100% straight, and I 100% support gay marriage; hell, even polygamy assuming having 50 spouses doesn't reap more benefits than having a single spouse.

Just knowing that a relative can bar a patient's significant other from visitation in a hospital ICU just because they aren't recognized as "legally married" upsets me so much.

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I am the same as you 100% straight and 100% for same sex marriages, I'm just bringing up reasons why SE needs to be careful around the subject, if they do it right brilliant, if they do it wrong it could mean disaster for not only FFXIV but SE as a whole in some countries.

Live your life not the life of others!

If it offends you to see such a thing there is an unlimited amount of directions you can avert your gaze so you don't have to see it. Stopping the act of marriage won't destroy the love two people feel for each other it just alienates them for no reason.

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Originally Posted by Eagleheart

There is no discrimination at work here.

Marriage is a sacrament going back many thousands of years binding a man and woman together - supposedly permanently, but nowadays we like to cheapen the meaning of marriage - into wedlock where they are exclusive to one another, and form the core of the human familial unit.

A homosexual pairing can not accomplish this. It has no reproductive value. It is not the same thing, nor should it be treated as such, no matter how much the "gender identity" politics/wishcasting of the world may change.

You don't even have to be religious to realize how this rails against nature itself. Darwinism also precludes this idea, and recognizes it as ultimately self-destructive to the race. Why should it be honored as is actual marriage?

Not that anyone honors it anymore, but we won't make any societal progress by doubling down on that.

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Please fill me in on how this applies at all to a fictional world? Female characters cannot bear children in the game, therefore, what you say brings doesn't matter in the slightest.

I think having crafted wedding (or joining) items that one can trade to any gender they want as a marriage (or union) proposal or in the actual marriage (or union) would be a good comprimise to having GM sponsering either opposite or same sex marriages (or unions)

For rings, they are completely statless and the item becomes untradeable after being traded. Clothing and accessories can be made and sold/traded freely. Hopefully with the addition of signatures from the crafter on the crafted item, we can add a few lines of text too, so there can be custom wedding (or joining) vows on them.

This way SE just gives players the choice on what gender they are going to marry (or join with) without being directly involved. Not saying that is the best choice, but I think it is a good alternative. This way the ~vast minority~ wont whine about things that wont even involve them. It would also be easier not involved 'waiting in line' to get married (or joined) by a GM.

During the Valentine's day event, same-sex characters could become the most loving couples on the server. The system didn't differentiate in any way, and Yoshi nor any in-game system acknowledged a "difference" in either way. And because of this, any potential haters either didn't notice or didn't care, because it could be chalked up to "it's just a game"
http://i.imgur.com/kvkoS.jpg
I wish they could have just quietly added it ; ;

But now that they've publicly stated that they may add it later, they've simultaneously acknowledged a difference, and that is the same as being against it because it places it in a different light and encourages unnecessary debate over whether our fictional sexless Barbie and Ken dolls can get married.

I mean the fact that at least 50% of MMO players play as a different gender than their own already slaps the issue in it's face in a realistic sense. Haters are quick to bash same-sex options, but they conveniently ignore that fact that most of the population (themselves included) is trans-gendered.

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Originally Posted by KiriA500

Please fill me in on how this applies at all to a fictional world? Female characters cannot bear children in the game, therefore, what you say brings doesn't matter in the slightest.

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Because the issue was brought up citing real-world feelings and trends.

In what way does this being a fantasy world mean that homosexual coupling is somehow more valid than it is in reality?

You're looking for recognition and validation where none can exist. That's the truth. o.0 That is the simple truth. Human beings interact as a male and female in order to propogate the race.

A male and a male cannot accomplish this, nor should they be honored as being capable of doing so, it is a lie. Nor can a female and a female. Why must we pretend otherwise in any other setting?

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Originally Posted by Eagleheart

There is no discrimination at work here.

Marriage is a sacrament going back many thousands of years binding a man and woman together - supposedly permanently, but nowadays we like to cheapen the meaning of marriage - into wedlock where they are exclusive to one another, and form the core of the human familial unit.

A homosexual pairing can not accomplish this. It has no reproductive value. It is not the same thing, nor should it be treated as such, no matter how much the "gender identity" politics/wishcasting of the world may change.

You don't even have to be religious to realize how this rails against nature itself. Darwinism also precludes this idea, and recognizes it as ultimately self-destructive to the race. Why should it be honored as is actual marriage?

Not that anyone honors it anymore, but we won't make any societal progress by doubling down on that.

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Old does not equal right. Sexism is old, rascism is old,slavery is old.
Also marriage predates those religions which now try to define it in their terms. They have no right to do so for anyone who does not follow their religion.

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Originally Posted by Kuzak

I could not agree more. There's nothing 'progressive' about it.

SquareEnix has my respect for leaving gay marriage out of the game.

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Except, they will most likely include it. . . . so, my question is, will you disrespect SE for doing that, and how will it affect your gaming experience?

q

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Originally Posted by Kye

During the Valentine's day event, same-sex characters could become the most loving couples on the server. The system didn't differentiate in any way, and Yoshi nor any in-game system acknowledged a "difference" in either way. And because of this, any potential haters either didn't notice or didn't care, because it could be chalked up to "it's just a game"
http://i.imgur.com/kvkoS.jpg
I wish they could have just quietly added it ; ;

But now that they've publicly stated that they may add it later, they've simultaneously acknowledged a difference, and that is the same as being against it because it places it in a different light and encourages unnecessary debate over whether our fictional sexless Barbie and Ken dolls can get married.

I mean the fact that at least 50% of MMO players play as a different gender than their own already slaps the issue in it's face in a realistic sense. Haters are quick to bash same-sex options, but they conveniently ignore that fact that most of the population (themselves included) is trans-gendered.

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Invalid and overreaching. The overwhelming majority of men enjoy looking at women. 0.o That is basically normal behavior, nothing transsexual about it. This is simply an attempt to paint dissidents into a corner where a corner does not exist.

I say this as a male playing a male.

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Originally Posted by Eagleheart

Because the issue was brought up citing real-world feelings and trends.

In what way does this being a fantasy world mean that homosexual coupling is somehow more valid than it is in reality?

You're looking for recognition and validation where none can exist. That's the truth. o.0 That is the simple truth. Human beings interact as a male and female in order to propogate the race.

A male and a male cannot accomplish this, nor should they be honored as being capable of doing so, it is a lie. Nor can a female and a female. Why must we pretend otherwise in any other setting?

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So, not only do homosexuals not matter as human beings, but now heterosexual people who are unable to bear children themselves! Wow, that sucks a lot! Sure must be great being perfect and straight!

You are right though, no two males/females could ever love each other the way a male and female can love each other. It's not like the addition of marriage into Eorzea is allowing us to have sex and reproduce anyway. It's just a stupid way some people want to show each other that they love one another.

But whatever, show us all about love by hating. That's the true way to stick it to all the gays!

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Originally Posted by charlemagne

Old does not equal right. Sexism is old, rascism is old,slavery is old.
Also marriage predates those religions which now try to define it in their terms. They have no right to do so for anyone who does not follow their religion.

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As mentioned previously, this has less to do with religion and more to do with realizing that this coddling of the homosexual experience is ultimately destructive to the human race. The population of many Western civilizations are teetering on collapse at this point, with replacement levels far below what is required to maintain current populations. As a result, these nations are spending themselves into oblivion, with an increasingly taxed societal safety net being paid for by fewer and fewer children.

This has nothing to do with slavery, either. You are free to behave in your bedroom as you see fit - that does not mean that your decisions about your personal behavior are valid, or match up with what is, by your own admission, an ancient custom that 'predates those religions which try to define it in their terms.' Why then do you seek to be admitted to that ancient, outdated custom?

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Originally Posted by KiriA500

So, not only do homosexuals not matter as human beings, but now heterosexual people who are unable to bear children themselves! Wow, that sucks a lot! Sure must be great being perfect and straight!

You are right though, no two males/females could ever love each other the way a male and female can love each other. It's not like the addition of marriage into Eorzea is allowing us to have sex and reproduce anyway. It's just a stupid way some people want to show each other that they love one another.

But whatever, show us all about love by hating. That's the true way to stick it to all the gays!

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............. but what if they did add sex and child bearing in? I think that would be interesting. Then again, adventureres wouldnt have children. couldnt do any adventuring then!

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Originally Posted by Eagleheart

As mentioned previously, this has less to do with religion and more to do with realizing that this coddling of the homosexual experience is ultimately destructive to the human race. The population of many Western civilizations are teetering on collapse at this point, with replacement levels far below what is required to maintain current populations. As a result, these nations are spending themselves into oblivion, with an increasingly taxed societal safety net being paid for by fewer and fewer children.

This has nothing to do with slavery, either. You are free to behave in your bedroom as you see fit - that does not mean that your decisions about your personal behavior are valid, or match up with what is, by your own admission, an ancient custom that 'predates those religions which try to define it in their terms.' Why then do you seek to be admitted to that ancient, outdated custom?

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Where's the part about polygonal models in a virtual world? You left that part out.

Eagleheart your point would be valid only if by allowing same sex unions everyone would choose to just marry someone of the same sex. It is not and would never play out that way because people do not choose to be gay they are born that way so while they cannot procreate with their partners they still feel the same love you would for a woman and share all the same bond.

Making it so they cannot wed is also not progressive because the way the world works is by change, NOTHING can progress without change. that's the law of life, if everything stayed the same as it did hundreds of years ago half the stuff we have today whether it be technology or medical advances would be non-existent and maybe just maybe we would not be alive ourselves.

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Originally Posted by KiriA500

So, not only do homosexuals not matter as human beings, but now heterosexual people who are unable to bear children themselves! Wow, that sucks a lot! Sure must be great being perfect and straight!

You are right though, no two males/females could ever love each other the way a male and female can love each other. It's not like the addition of marriage into Eorzea is allowing us to have sex and reproduce anyway. It's just a stupid way some people want to show each other that they love one another.

But whatever, show us all about love by hating. That's the true way to stick it to all the gays!

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I hate no one. In fact, I think I have too much love for humanity in general, it keeps me up at night.

Simply because I care about each and every person, I cannot conform to an easy lie. It is destructive to mankind in general, and that is worrisome to me. I have no hate for anyone o.o only concern. Telling the truth is rarely popular, and I accept that.

Men and woman will play as what they "enjoy looking at". Weither its a woman playing as a man, or a man as a woman, or any combination imaginable. So by your own logic, only allowing opposite sex marriage in an MMO would mess with a lot of people regardless of their orientation.

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There will be a cathedral in ARR, and this was created so that marriage can be performed. We will release information on this once marriage is possible. Same-sex marriage is an extremely fragile topic, so for now we would like to only have opposite-sex marriage to start.

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Bah, so disappointed.

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Originally Posted by Eagleheart

I hate no one. In fact, I think I have too much love for humanity in general, it keeps me up at night.

Simply because I care about each and every person, I cannot conform to an easy lie. It is destructive to mankind in general, and that is worrisome to me. I have no hate for anyone o.o only concern. Telling the truth is rarely popular, and I accept that.

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If only you were telling the truth, but you are not sir.

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Originally Posted by Eagleheart

There is no discrimination at work here.

Marriage is a sacrament going back many thousands of years binding a man and woman together - supposedly permanently, but nowadays we like to cheapen the meaning of marriage - into wedlock where they are exclusive to one another, and form the core of the human familial unit.

A homosexual pairing can not accomplish this. It has no reproductive value. It is not the same thing, nor should it be treated as such, no matter how much the "gender identity" politics/wishcasting of the world may change.

You don't even have to be religious to realize how this rails against nature itself. Darwinism also precludes this idea, and recognizes it as ultimately self-destructive to the race. Why should it be honored as is actual marriage?

Not that anyone honors it anymore, but we won't make any societal progress by doubling down on that.

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We are currently more than 7 billion human beings, tendency towards much more to come as (at least theoretically) human growth should be exponental. :P
We have already calculated when our resources will run out, so basically we are (soon?) going to suffer a lack of vital resources which will ultimately endanger our human civilisation to a grave extend. So basically LGBT do their job to save the world. :p

I'm sorry, I'm a bit sarcastic about this! (Please take this as a bad joke that is not supposed to be against either side of this.)


While I do understand your point with the family/reproduction you can't choose who you fall in love with. Marriage (at least how I understand it) is for promising the other person to spend your whole life with him/her. There are also heterosexual couples who don't have children so accordingly they had failed evolutionary purpose. But they probably still love each other.
(And other than that human often act against nature and preservation and evolution and so on. )
Other than that this will not mean that there are more homosexual persons - homosexuality has always existed and is no 20th century invention. It is just about how it is viewed by society and not that suddenly everyone has to turn gay so that human reproduction will fail...


Isn't love what it is about? And if you happen to be LBGT and you fall in love with someone you can hardly change it, can you? At least I found it quite hard (being a girl) not to be in love with a boy even if I had been turned down by him for already a long time.

And besides: We are not reproducing in FFXIV anyways. :p

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Originally Posted by Eagleheart

I hate no one. In fact, I think I have too much love for humanity in general, it keeps me up at night.

Simply because I care about each and every person, I cannot conform to an easy lie. It is destructive to mankind in general, and that is worrisome to me. I have no hate for anyone o.o only concern. Telling the truth is rarely popular, and I accept that.

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Wheres the lie at?

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Originally Posted by KiriA500

But whatever, show us all about love by hating. That's the true way to stick it to all the gays!

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I don't see any hatred in his posts, just logic.

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Originally Posted by Keith_Dragoon

Eagleheart your point would be valid only if by allowing same sex unions everyone would choose to just marry someone of the same sex. It is not and would never play out that way because people do not choose to be gay they are born that way so while they cannot procreate with their partners they still feel the same love you would for a woman and share all the same bond.

Making it so they cannot wed is also not progressive because the way the world works is by change, NOTHING can progress without change. that's the law of life, if everything stayed the same as it did hundreds of years ago half the stuff we have today whether it be technology or medical advances would be non-existent and maybe just maybe we would not be alive ourselves.

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The point is still invalid. Much is made nowadays of falling in love, but we see where that's gone.

Astronomical out-of-wedlock birth rates, a generally decaying, corpulent culture, and replacement ratings below maintenance for current populations.

Marriage is supposed to be far more than what Hollywood soaps show. It is to be a permanent union dedicated to maintaining discipline and commitment from the man and woman in question, and to raising children. A biological error in a man or woman that leaves them incapable of having children does not make their relationship invalid, as was accused above - it is an error, an unfortunate mistake, in their biology. They are indeed designed for this coupling - but there is a problem that prevents them from fulfilling this portion of their biological programming.

It is, in no way, the same thing as two men who are incapable of producing children. That is a logical fallacy of astonishing proportions.

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Originally Posted by Kuzak

I don't see any hatred in his posts, just logic.

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Of course you don't, you agree with him. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Eagleheart

out-of-wedlock birth

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You're aware a religion is based on this, yes?

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Originally Posted by Eagleheart

I hate no one. In fact, I think I have too much love for humanity in general, it keeps me up at night.

Simply because I care about each and every person, I cannot conform to an easy lie. It is destructive to mankind in general, and that is worrisome to me. I have no hate for anyone o.o only concern. Telling the truth is rarely popular, and I accept that.

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This is a textbook example of a wrong mental setup. If you cannot accept that there's more than one, "ultimate truth", then you really should step off the pedestal you've put yourself on.

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Originally Posted by Eagleheart

There is no discrimination at work here.

Marriage is a sacrament going back many thousands of years binding a man and woman together - supposedly permanently, but nowadays we like to cheapen the meaning of marriage - into wedlock where they are exclusive to one another, and form the core of the human familial unit.

A homosexual pairing can not accomplish this. It has no reproductive value. It is not the same thing, nor should it be treated as such, no matter how much the "gender identity" politics/wishcasting of the world may change.

You don't even have to be religious to realize how this rails against nature itself. Darwinism also precludes this idea, and recognizes it as ultimately self-destructive to the race. Why should it be honored as is actual marriage?

Not that anyone honors it anymore, but we won't make any societal progress by doubling down on that.

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First of all, the definition or meaning of marriage isn't up to you. For me, for example, marriage is about companionship and love, for you it seems to be about reproduction and biology. I'm not judging or forcing my definition on you, but you have no right to do that on me either. Neither am I saying your marriage is somehow cheaper than mine, nor have you any right to claim the opposite.

Secondly, we're not talking about a real life marriage in this thread. Even if we were to evaluate our in game marriages based on their reproductional value (do you realise how ridiculous the idea sounds?) we should evaluate them in the context of the game world and how "biology" works in there - and of that we don't have much to go with.

In short, your argument is completely based on your very personal opinion and you shouldn't try to force it on anyone else.

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Originally Posted by Scherwiz

If only you were telling the truth, but you are not sir.

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Believe as you will, but I do speak the truth.

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Originally Posted by Taika

First of all, the definition or meaning of marriage isn't up to you. For me, for example, marriage is about companionship and love, for you it seems to be about reproduction and biology. I'm not judging or forcing my definition on you, but you have no right to do that on me either. Neither am I saying your marriage is somehow cheaper than mine, nor have you any right to claim the opposite.

Secondly, we're not talking about a real life marriage in this thread. Even if we were to evaluate our in game marriages based on their reproductional value (do you realise how ridiculous the idea sounds?) we should evaluate them in the context of the game world and how "biology" works in there - and of that we don't have much to go with.

In short, your argument is completely based on your very personal opinion and you shouldn't try to force it on anyone else.

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The entirety of this thread is the desire to force the opinion of gay marriage being valid onto others, conforming to what is quoted above as an ancient and outmoded custom. I am not forcing anything on anyone, nor am I advancing a new opinion. I am merely standing ground on a biological fact.

I'm still waiting to hear some logical reason why 2 people of the same sex getting married in a game, or even IRL, would effect you in any way. How would you even know it happened? would you wait around the cathedral all day scouting for possible gay marriages? would you be unable to sleep at night if they added gay marriage? would the thought of a gay couple buying housing land in the same area as you make you uncomfortable?

Really, what is it. I'm not gay and I dont feel any of those things. I even have a gay room mate IRL, I dont feel threatened at the fact he likes men and would marry a man, and I wouldn't care if he did in a game or IRL. WHAT IS going on in your heads? really.

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Originally Posted by Eagleheart

Believe as you will, but I do speak the truth.

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But you do not, you're just being louder than everyone else, that doesn't make anything the truth it just makes you look like a loud person.

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Originally Posted by Eagleheart

The entirety of this thread is the desire to force the opinion of gay marriage being valid onto others, conforming to what is quoted above as an ancient and outmoded custom. I am not forcing anything on anyone, nor am I advancing a new opinion. I am merely standing ground on a biological fact.

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Stop talking about reality...the point of this thread is about marriage in the game. Magic is impossible in reality (unless you're Criss Angel, but then you'd just be a warlock), yet we're capable of doing so in this game. Why aren't you pointing out stuff like that?

There's nothing progressive about gay marriage. It's a sign of a decadent society on the virge of collapse (See United States, or more specifically, California). Eorzea doesn't need any more problems.

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Originally Posted by Eagleheart

As mentioned previously, this has less to do with religion and more to do with realizing that this coddling of the homosexual experience is ultimately destructive to the human race. The population of many Western civilizations are teetering on collapse at this point, with replacement levels far below what is required to maintain current populations. As a result, these nations are spending themselves into oblivion, with an increasingly taxed societal safety net being paid for by fewer and fewer children.

This has nothing to do with slavery, either. You are free to behave in your bedroom as you see fit - that does not mean that your decisions about your personal behavior are valid, or match up with what is, by your own admission, an ancient custom that 'predates those religions which try to define it in their terms.' Why then do you seek to be admitted to that ancient, outdated custom?

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Firstly the population argument is both incorrect and irrelevent. Populations on the brink of collapse? Nonsense. I never said marriage was an ancient custom, it is an old concept which exists in a variety of customs. Concepts and customs change, they always have. Otherwise we would still be clubbing women over the head and dragging them back to our caves.

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Originally Posted by Nuinn

This is a textbook example of a wrong mental setup. If you cannot accept that there's more than one, "ultimate truth", then you really should step off the pedestal you've put yourself on.

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Adjectives placed next to the word 'truth' does not change 'truth'. One man may say there is no God, another may say there is no God but allah, another may say only Buddha was right. They are not all right. Someone is wrong by definition, each declares mutual exclusivity from the other.

If I were to say that fifty times ten is five hundred and were then to be told by another that it was actually seventeen, I am still speaking the truth. Simply because one wishes a thing to be so does not make it so, nor does telling oneself that there are many 'truths' change anything but the formatting of one's own mind, which typically leads to delusional behavior. This is now commonplace in Western society.

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Originally Posted by Eagleheart

It is destructive to mankind in general,

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Because you know we have a crippling deficit of humans on the planet as it is don't we? I would be interested though in how you feel such things as same-sex mariages is "Destructive" to humankind anyways. It's just always interesting to see how others view things in certain periods of time. I'm sure tons of people thought interacial interactions (Not just marriage) But meerly interacting with others of a different race was a dangerous thought.

It was a new concept coming from a world that didn't even know that different races even existed in the first place and were a alien topic. The funny thing is that Homosxuality has been around probably longer than religion itself, yet we have such a hard time coming to terms with it when it permiates the very world we live in.

But again I'd love to hear how destructive same-sex marriage can be to humanity when the existence of Homosexuality is arguably as old as humans themselves.

But in all reality guys we need to veer from slighting insults towards people who don't agree with our view point (On either side of this fence or even on the middle). We need to respect that some people are for and against this idea and we are here to discuss it with civility, let people speak their mind let them know what you think without twisting their words.

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Originally Posted by KiriA500

Stop talking about reality...the point of this thread is about marriage in the game. Magic is impossible in reality (unless you're Criss Angel, but then you'd just be a warlock), yet we're capable of doing so in this game. Why aren't you pointing out stuff like that?

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As mentioned above, the thread was begun with the idea of the changing times and societally accepted norms shifting. If we begin there, we will probably end up returning to that point of contention over the course of the conversation.