Area of Effect: Display Markers

Holy crap, awesome news :D

Wonder how this'll affect Bard and landing different songs on different party members, though. :o Still, awesome news!

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Originally Posted by Camate

Happy Friday everyone!

In A Realm Reborn we will be implementing a system for raid dungeon bosses and other big baddies where an AoE range display will be shown as they are charging up to perform their attacks, and after a couple of seconds everything in range will be hit (hint: MOVE!). Similar to the suggestions in this thread, it is very possible to have the same kind of system for players in the future, so the development team will keep this in mind.

As an aside, in A Realm Reborn the buffing range is extremely wide and has been set to 40m, so if you are in a dungeon you will be able to cast the spells on all party members easily, so no more players getting out of range of Stoneskin and other enhancements :p

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WOOOOT!!

http://h13.abload.de/img/ilbq8vgrdzuqznhest.gif

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Originally Posted by Teakwood

Holy crap, awesome news :D

Wonder how this'll affect Bard and landing different songs on different party members, though. :o Still, awesome news!

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Hehehee strategy. Anyway, all they have to do is allow 2 songs per bard like XI and there's zero issues.

Honestly, I'd rather them show the distance indicator than the AoE attack range indicator. This is making the game a little too easy, but to each their own.

Oh, and before some of you even begin to tout "They'll make it so you can turn it off." that means nothing. If it's there, may as well have it on. this is the same case with aggressive mobs indicator, a lot of people were upset about it because they feel it makes the game easier and ruins exploration (which is true, it eliminates the fun out of exploring, by making things less unknown).

Being spoon fed displays isn't what makes a player a better player, but actually learning from the mistakes and problems from the previous fights and applying it to the next fight is what makes the players stronger. I can agree that it can be tricky to judge the distance from the mobs (case in point, coincounter in Aurum Vale), but that can be easily combated with a distance indicator, rather than displaying the AoE attack range.

Secondly, I personally always like the challenge and the guess work of judging what the attack range of each bosses will be. Does giving us the ability to toggle this display changes that? No. I'm going to have to play it on because people I'm going to play with will expect me to have it on.

In the long run, this is good news for those who don't play as much or as well as others do, and makes it less likely for parties to fail due to players not able to judge distance, so I guess I'm indifference about it.

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Originally Posted by Suirieko

Honestly, I'd rather them show the distance indicator than the AoE attack range indicator. This is making the game a little too easy, but to each their own.

Oh, and before some of you even begin to tout "They'll make it so you can turn it off." that means nothing. If it's there, may as well have it on. this is the same case with aggressive mobs indicator, a lot of people were upset about it because they feel it makes the game easier and ruins exploration (which is true, it eliminates the fun out of exploring, by making things less unknown).

Being spoon fed displays isn't what makes a player a better player, but actually learning from the mistakes and problems from the previous fights and applying it to the next fight is what makes the players stronger. I can agree that it can be tricky to judge the distance from the mobs (case in point, coincounter in Aurum Vale), but that can be easily combated with a distance indicator, rather than displaying the AoE attack range.

Secondly, I personally always like the challenge and the guess work of judging what the attack range of each bosses will be. Does giving us the ability to toggle this display changes that? No. I'm going to have to play it on because people I'm going to play with will expect me to have it on.

In the long run, this is good news for those who don't play as much or as well as others do, and makes it less likely for parties to fail due to players not able to judge distance, so I guess I'm indifference about it.

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Cracks under your feet is an indicator, yet people still die from eruptions.

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Originally Posted by Suirieko

Honestly, I'd rather them show the distance indicator than the AoE attack range indicator. This is making the game a little too easy, but to each their own.

Oh, and before some of you even begin to tout "They'll make it so you can turn it off." that means nothing. If it's there, may as well have it on. this is the same case with aggressive mobs indicator, a lot of people were upset about it because they feel it makes the game easier and ruins exploration (which is true, it eliminates the fun out of exploring, by making things less unknown).

Being spoon fed displays isn't what makes a player a better player, but actually learning from the mistakes and problems from the previous fights and applying it to the next fight is what makes the players stronger. I can agree that it can be tricky to judge the distance from the mobs (case in point, coincounter in Aurum Vale), but that can be easily combated with a distance indicator, rather than displaying the AoE attack range.

Secondly, I personally always like the challenge and the guess work of judging what the attack range of each bosses will be. Does giving us the ability to toggle this display changes that? No. I'm going to have to play it on because people I'm going to play with will expect me to have it on.

In the long run, this is good news for those who don't play as much or as well as others do, and makes it less likely for parties to fail due to players not able to judge distance, so I guess I'm indifference about it.

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http://i2.dealtwith.it/i/n/1ac8c5978...dntreadlol.gif

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

Cracks under your feet is an indicator, yet people still die from eruptions.

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Indeed, the cracks are an indicator specific to the boss, but that's not for every attack. Garuda has no AoE indication on range of attacks, just that hiding behind a rock will protect you. Moogles have zero range indication. Buffalos have zero range indication and so on. You'd logically think standing under a big ass foot is a bad idea, but a lot of MMO gamers need a marker to know that xD.

This is more of a "Every attack that is AoE will be clearly marked" type of deal, rather than certain attacks that are hazards are marked. Eruption and Plumes are just arena hazards, Ifrit's swinging can hit multiple people so that's technically something that will get an AoE marker lol. So changing the flow of battle really depends on how far they take it and what they consider to be an AoE attack worthy of displaying the range or not.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Hehehee strategy. Anyway, all they have to do is allow 2 songs per bard like XI and there's zero issues.

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Yes, or there will be issues with brd as sometimes it's better to have different songs for different players in the group.

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

Cracks under your feet is an indicator, yet people still die from eruptions.

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Ifrit isn't even what I had in mind at all, and of course there's endless excuses about Ifrit and Eruptions anyway (IE Server lags) issues that should be solved, we'll see how many new excuses in 2.0.

Could be fun, could be pointless.

My only concern is that they don't supplant graphic indicators with simple symbols for each one. I happened to like the visual queues for both the cracks and the tornadoes for their respective primal. I don't want that to be replaced by tiny red circle outlines.

As far as its impact on the game's playstyle. Seeming the game is faster paced in the future, I'm ok with this.

Any mention of dodge ala GW2?

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Originally Posted by Gidonoidon_Sur

Any mention of dodge ala GW2?

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This would be a cool feature of course. But you might receive backlash from those who don't want it to be an action game or people saying that "if you're good, you won't need this feature" lol.

But I fully support this.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Happy Friday everyone!

In A Realm Reborn we will be implementing a system for raid dungeon bosses and other big baddies where an AoE range display will be shown as they are charging up to perform their attacks, and after a couple of seconds everything in range will be hit (hint: MOVE!). Similar to the suggestions in this thread, it is very possible to have the same kind of system for players in the future, so the development team will keep this in mind.

As an aside, in A Realm Reborn the buffing range is extremely wide and has been set to 40m, so if you are in a dungeon you will be able to cast the spells on all party members easily, so no more players getting out of range of Stoneskin and other enhancements :p

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Sweet. For me this is mostly an issue with offensive AoEs, such that the caster doesn't accidentally hit enemies they didn't mean to hit with their spell.

What would be EVEN MORE awesome is if we could target an area of ground with AoEs instead of requiring them to be centered on a target. This of course would make the targeting radius even more importent.

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Originally Posted by Psykotsu

This would be a cool feature of course. But you might receive backlash from those who don't want it to be an action game or people saying that "if you're good, you won't need this feature" lol.

But I fully support this.

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Well Yoshi did say he has no intention on turning this into an action game lol.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Well Yoshi did say he has no intention on turning this into an action game lol.

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Yea, I remember that. Something they're holding on to for their next mmo I bet.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Happy Friday everyone!

In A Realm Reborn we will be implementing a system for raid dungeon bosses and other big baddies where an AoE range display will be shown as they are charging up to perform their attacks, and after a couple of seconds everything in range will be hit (hint: MOVE!). Similar to the suggestions in this thread, it is very possible to have the same kind of system for players in the future, so the development team will keep this in mind.

As an aside, in A Realm Reborn the buffing range is extremely wide and has been set to 40m, so if you are in a dungeon you will be able to cast the spells on all party members easily, so no more players getting out of range of Stoneskin and other enhancements :p

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What's that in yalms?

Woot, I'm excited about this I was gonna mention the Raid boss hint system in another thread now I don't have to!

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Originally Posted by Suirieko

Honestly, I'd rather them show the distance indicator than the AoE attack range indicator. This is making the game a little too easy, but to each their own.

Oh, and before some of you even begin to tout "They'll make it so you can turn it off." that means nothing. If it's there, may as well have it on. this is the same case with aggressive mobs indicator, a lot of people were upset about it because they feel it makes the game easier and ruins exploration (which is true, it eliminates the fun out of exploring, by making things less unknown).

Being spoon fed displays isn't what makes a player a better player, but actually learning from the mistakes and problems from the previous fights and applying it to the next fight is what makes the players stronger. I can agree that it can be tricky to judge the distance from the mobs (case in point, coincounter in Aurum Vale), but that can be easily combated with a distance indicator, rather than displaying the AoE attack range.

Secondly, I personally always like the challenge and the guess work of judging what the attack range of each bosses will be. Does giving us the ability to toggle this display changes that? No. I'm going to have to play it on because people I'm going to play with will expect me to have it on.

In the long run, this is good news for those who don't play as much or as well as others do, and makes it less likely for parties to fail due to players not able to judge distance, so I guess I'm indifference about it.

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Guess work isn't skill or challenge, it's guessing. The display of information means nothing if the player doesn't know what to do with it or isn't skilled enough to act on it. Information is just that, nothing more. It's not dodging attacks for you, it's just telling you whether or not you're in range. Being spoonfed information doesn't make you a better player and by the same token it doesn't make you a worse player. Just like the aggro indicator it means absolutely nothing if you don't know how to use that information.

A visual display isn't better or worse than a range number skill wise. It's just different ways of displaying information for the same reason.

In fact for something like the Nael Darnus hard mode fight, a visual indicator of his AoEs would do you little good as they go off too fast for you to react. The range number add-on that some used was the only way to make sure you were always at the appropriate range, no matter what the attack was. Some would say it requires less skill as you don't even have to react to it.

This is casualizing the fights.

I think it should be better if the boss mechanics actually helped you to learn the range and all that, instead of giving an external indicator, but oh well...

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Originally Posted by Dannythm

This is casualizing the fights.

I think it should be better if the boss mechanics actually helped you to learn the range and all that, instead of giving an external indicator, but oh well...

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Hi Kenshiro,

Initially it feels like it maybe "casualizing" the fight as you say, but as Arcell mentions above, remember the outcry over the Enmity / Aggro Indicator when they first talked about? People were decrying that it'd ruin the game.

Instead the Enmity Indicator has been really helpful and useful and allows players to gauge how to manage their attacks and how far they can "ride Red Enmity" without ever going over into Flashing Red Enmity, etc.

While I personally don't need to have this new AOE Range Indicator, I think it would be helpful, as sadly, Square's Battle Team have already implemented some Boss Attack Moves that just *don't* read very well at all. Some examples:

• Garuda - Mistral Shriek: Why do so many people want to skip Phase 2 of Garuda? Mistral Shriek and Song are 2 key reasons. There have been times that I could've sworn I was far enough away on the opposite end of the Arena when Garuda did Mistral Shriek, only to be hit still. The Visual FX, Animations, Environment all *failed* to indicate properly how far away to be. Of course you can just try to "hug the oppposite wall" to be totally sure.

• Nael Deus Darnus (Rivenroad Hard) - Iron Chariot + Lunar Dynamo: I'm still baffled that the Battle Team actually put in these 2 AOE Attacks and expected players to be able to accurately "guess" the perfect distance to be far enough away from Iron Chariot, but not too far away to be hit by Lunar Dynamo (you have a, what?, 1.5 yalm "gap" to stand to not be hit by either). Of course people with a 3rd Party App can read the distance, but without it? It's all eyeballing. Again, here, the VFX and Animations fail to teach the Player how to counteract this.

So in 2.0, having an AOE Indicator might actually be helpful and useful. Players will still have to decide what to do with the information and react to it.


Currently, an average player fighting Van Darnus Hard and figuring out Iron Chariot and Lunar Dynamo ranges without any help is an exercise in frustration.


Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Kiara

Hi Kenshiro,

Initially it feels like it maybe "casualizing" the fight as you say, but as Arcell mentions above, remember the outcry over the Enmity / Aggro Indicator when they first talked about? People were decrying that it'd ruin the game.

Instead the Enmity Indicator has been really helpful and useful and allows players to gauge how to manage their attacks and how far they can "ride Red Enmity" without ever going over into Flashing Red Enmity, etc.

While I personally don't need to have this new AOE Range Indicator, I think it would be helpful, as sadly, Square's Battle Team have already implemented some Boss Attack Moves that just *don't* read very well at all. Some examples:

• Garuda - Mistral Shriek: Why do so many people want to skip Phase 2 of Garuda? Mistral Shriek and Song are 2 key reasons. There have been times that I could've sworn I was far enough away on the opposite end of the Arena when Garuda did Mistral Shriek, only to be hit still. The Visual FX, Animations, Environment all *failed* to indicate properly how far away to be. Of course you can just try to "hug the oppposite wall" to be totally sure.

• Nael Deus Darnus (Rivenroad Hard) - Iron Chariot + Lunar Dynamo: I'm still baffled that the Battle Team actually put in these 2 AOE Attacks and expected players to be able to accurately "guess" the perfect distance to be far enough away from Iron Chariot, but not too far away to be hit by Lunar Dynamo (you have a, what?, 1.5 yalm "gap" to stand to not be hit by either). Of course people with a 3rd Party App can read the distance, but without it? It's all eyeballing. Again, here, the VFX and Animations fail to teach the Player how to counteract this.

So in 2.0, having an AOE Indicator might actually be helpful and useful. Players will still have to decide what to do with the information and react to it.


Currently, an average player fighting Van Darnus Hard and figuring out Iron Chariot and Lunar Dynamo ranges without any help is an exercise in frustration.


Thanks.

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While I agree with you, I still think it would be better if some game mechanics or boss behavior could help the players understand the fight and perform it correctly. Each boss should have it's tricks and that would be fun to learn, but this will give the design team also a harder time designing the new encounters, as they should include all the mechanics needed for the players to see, adding aggro or AoE indicators may help the players, but it help more the developers giving them something less to worry about while designing a boss, and this is a double edged sword, as it may deliver for more complex and fun fights, or just make everything easier.

I will judge when I see it in action and when I experience it in-game though, just haring my thoughts on the matter.

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Originally Posted by Kiara

Hi Kenshiro,

• Nael Deus Darnus (Rivenroad Hard) - Iron Chariot + Lunar Dynamo: I'm still baffled that the Battle Team actually put in these 2 AOE Attacks and expected players to be able to accurately "guess" the perfect distance to be far enough away from Iron Chariot, but not too far away to be hit by Lunar Dynamo (you have a, what?, 1.5 yalm "gap" to stand to not be hit by either). Of course people with a 3rd Party App can read the distance, but without it? It's all eyeballing. Again, here, the VFX and Animations fail to teach the Player how to counteract this.

So in 2.0, having an AOE Indicator might actually be helpful and useful. Players will still have to decide what to do with the information and react to it.


Currently, an average player fighting Van Darnus Hard and figuring out Iron Chariot and Lunar Dynamo ranges without any help is an exercise in frustration.


Thanks.

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But there is an indication for both of those abilities, you just have to get hit by it once to figure it out ;D

These circles are pretty damn obnoxious in GW2. It's like the entire game is either "get out of the circle" or "get in the circle."

If SE implements these I hope its limited a bit and not spammed all over the place.

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Originally Posted by casker

These circles are pretty damn obnoxious in GW2. It's like the entire game is either "get out of the circle" or "get in the circle."

If SE implements these I hope its limited a bit and not spammed all over the place.

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Obnoxious? I was thinking helpful.

Not really something I was hoping to happen, but se la vie.

People can't figure stuff out on their own anymore, and I get it. People don't want the school of hard knocks in their game, nobody wants things to ever be hard. It's really up to the developers how/when they present what they find the challenge of the game will be.

Hopefully we don't see too many circles allover the place, personally I don't need to see a giant cone when a Malboro uses "Bad breath" I just get the hell out of the way. If i really need to figure out the distance it's a matter of trial and error, and becoming a stronger player from your knowledge and not just your gear.

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Indicator will make the game easier

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I think Really high Tier Hard mode Tera Bosses will have to disagree with this.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Hopefully we don't see too many circles allover the place, personally I don't need to see a giant cone when a Malboro uses "Bad breath" I just get the hell out of the way. If i really need to figure out the distance it's a matter of trial and error, and becoming a stronger player from your knowledge and not just your gear.

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I definitely agree with this, but at the same time, it helps if the game isn't terribly laggy and what you see on-screen accurately depicts your position in relation to the monster's attacks. I don't know about you, but there's been countless times when I was trying to tank Coincounter, moved in a straight line away from him AS SOON as I saw him about to use 100-Tonze Swing, and STILL got hit by it. Same thing with Ifrit's Eruptions and Plumes, although at least there's somewhat of an attack pattern he has so you can anticipate it in advance... :( Granted, I'm hoping the regional data centers they've been talking about will help alleviate this issue.

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Originally Posted by Psykotsu

Obnoxious? I was thinking helpful.

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Yeah...they are helpful for getting out of aoe's. That's not the point.

The point is that GW2 dungeons, pvp, and general gameplay is TOTALLY DOMINATED by these damn chalk-outline circles.

As I get a bit older I appreciate things like this more so I'm not going to complain. I'd bet the reason they are doing this is because Yoshi has said he doesn't want ARR to be a game where you stare at the battle log for the entire fight, so this gives the players a good visual cue when something is about to happen. Could you do the same with more subtle mob animations of some kind to increase the difficulty? Sure, but this is probably a heck of a lot easier to pull off.

With the extended range for buffs it seems like this idea will be superfluous for enhancing magic. I wouldn't mind a simple graphic for offensive magic as long as it is only visible to the caster.

I'm still waiting for the "protective dome" spell we see used in the opening movie for 1.0!

No thanks, it's like automating or visually removing the necessity for skill. If I were to give an analogy it's like calling yourself an artist but needing a ruler to draw a stick figure. I much prefer my gaming to be one where I hone my skills as an artist.

My experience includes BRD, WHM and BLM as for Rampart and other classes AoEs I do not know.

BRD should be re-positioning himself to add different buffs to melee and mages most of the time, doing so really isn't difficult at all in my experience.

WHM only AoE 3 things, Stoneskin, Protect and Regen (Benediction's range is massive) Out of those 3 things only one is done frequently which is Regen. The increased range for buffs is a welcome addition however.

BLM and Flare? Resonance... It's always up when Flare is and it increases range to an absurd amount.

Now, what I would like is an indicator that is visible to everyone else so even the people who ignore chat macros or don't learn other classes will see they are outside of buff ranges. Also for BLM so it can be seen if mobs have moved outside it's range and can prepare for additional actions. This would offer a good opportunity for animation "flash" as glowing runes or whatever can be seen by the party and visually appealing to everyone.

The way you state it is leveling the playing field for good and bad players, personally I like that segregation. I'm not saying it is game breaking but it is another drop in the bucket of not needing to learn your job. Skill is what differentiates FF from the rest of the crowd. I take pride in becoming good at something by honing it not by visual indicators. I understand making the game casual friendly, however that should be done via drop rates, content finding ease and short duration content rather than short sighting the depth of the classes and jobs.

No... but real artist use Rulers aaalllllll the time.....lol
And the hardest boss in Tera is still hard with indicators on the ground. "where" aoe will land is not the only danger in boss fights.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Sweet. For me this is mostly an issue with offensive AoEs, such that the caster doesn't accidentally hit enemies they didn't mean to hit with their spell.

What would be EVEN MORE awesome is if we could target an area of ground with AoEs instead of requiring them to be centered on a target. This of course would make the targeting radius even more importent.

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Except that it will not work with controllers so that option is pretty much out. There isn't much need to AoE things without hitting others and mobs move so targeting the mob is often better imo. Nothing more frustrating than to target the ground and actually end up hitting nothing.

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Originally Posted by RoninDarkchild

No... but real artist use Rulers aaalllllll the time.....lol

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Yes but not for stick figures >.>

ctrl+r is my best friend in PS and AI but I think I can do 5 lines and a circle without.

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Originally Posted by Synfrag

The way you state it is leveling the playing field for good and bad players, personally I like that segregation. I'm not saying it is game breaking but it is another drop in the bucket of not needing to learn your job. Skill is what differentiates FF from the rest of the crowd. I take pride in becoming good at something by honing it not by visual indicators. I understand making the game casual friendly, however that should be done via drop rates, content finding ease and short duration content rather than short sighting the depth of the classes and jobs.

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In a word, agreed. I feel like something like this is minor enough to not be a real issue (after all, player abilities are something that can be tested outside of instances, and NPC abilities can be learned through trial and error), but also creates a nice little separation between the people who will take the time to really get comfortable with their AoE's, and the people who won't. It's not a huge gap but it's there and it's reasonable.

The indicators just seem like they would end up cluttering up the screen and just be too much hand-holding. I mean, I'll be the first person to admit to using a distance add-on for fights (you can see it in my videos ;P), but when it comes down to it, I know the range of my songs, and I know where to stand to be safe, because I take the time to figure this stuff out. It's not too much to ask that of other people.

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Originally Posted by TheFatHousecat

I mean, I'll be the first person to admit to using a distance add-on for fights (you can see it in my videos ;P), but when it comes down to it, I know the range of my songs, and I know where to stand to be safe, because I take the time to figure this stuff out. It's not too much to ask that of other people.

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Ditto, well, it's more so for HP% in my case but I do think range finders are acceptable to "Optimize" your ranges. I used one in XI as well to get max range on BLM pudding farming. But that was a much larger range and for WHM buffs I never used it, nor would it really have been helpful anyhow.

DO NOT LIKE!

this is such a dumb idea and 40m buff range? lets dumb down the game some more. i really hope i eat my words, i really do... it's crap like this that is really scaring me.

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Originally Posted by Synfrag

Yes but not for stick figures >.>

ctrl+r is my best friend in PS and AI but I think I can do 5 lines and a circle without.

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Yea but thats a pretty big Extreme :-\

People wipe to Argon queen shandra manaya in Tera all the time.
Hell people wipe to Ifrit Extreme despite being able to see Cracks, and Lava :(
The use of the "ruler" isnt the only difficulty.

i like the idea of aoes marking the floor and being able to control the distance of your aoe by holding down a button.

example: you hold down stone-skin and the circle grows until you let go and everyone in the circle gets the buff.

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

i like the idea of aoes marking the floor and being able to control the distance of your aoe by holding down a button.

example: you hold down stone-skin and the circle grows until you let go and everyone in the circle gets the buff.

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But that would take so much longer than just knowing where your AoE is supposed to land and either going to people or having people know to stand close at certain points for buffs