HOUSING NEEDS TO CHANGE

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Originally Posted by ShadowyZero

this kinda sounds a little fatalistic sorry but i will disagree with you on this particular point, things change because people push for changes they are pessimistic, they are unrealistic, unhinged, crazy, or visionary people label them names or downplay their conspiracies or theories but some do listen to them an do follow not far behind. if we want to talk realistic then yes change doesn't happen over night it takes months or even years of planning but when it does land it reaches those who supported it. to those that didn't support yes they may be bitter about it for a while but they do come around and overtime accept it and move on with their lives (at least most do.) an better still there are those who will not be affected by the change at all an will just be happy that someone else has found a reason to be happy.
and thats why i say that both side can be happy for eachother that everyone has a house whatever shape of form that takes that only the introduction of new housing or a drastic overhaul to the current would bring about.
you may disagree still on that but you've been respectful toward the points of those frustrated by limitations or inconveniences that SE has yet to address so i will extend that kindness still to you.
we may not reach a middle but i can respect that you're at least coming from a more civil point of view on this an not trying to dunk or trash on anyone's wishes or be disingenuous or discourteous about the problems people do have. so thank you for that.

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I appreciate the civility, and I agree that advocacy can lead to change over time. My point isn’t that change shouldn’t happen, it absolutely should.

What I’m emphasizing is realism: in a system with finite plots, social visibility, and years of accumulated player investment, no overhaul or addition will make everyone happy. Some players will inevitably be frustrated by choices, timing, or trade-offs. Changes like these are ultimately what made me quit another game, from personal experience. We can’t simply say that people will eventually be happy, because the truth of the matter is, they never will be and guess what? That’s okay. Acknowledging that reality doesn’t mean being pessimistic; it means planning solutions that balance fairness, feasibility, and player experience. Especially in a game that is already struggling (currently).

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Originally Posted by ShadowyZero

jealous eh? didn't think you were the type sweetums~

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There it is. If a point becomes an inconvenient truth, don't address it at all, move attention away from what you cant reconcile or address. Re-iterate your point, and start from there again.

Im watching you dance around Nyastra. Im aware of what you're doing. But I'm enjoying it. If you fundamentally disagree with my perspective . You are either going to stop broaching this subject soon if they keep prying into it to keep your perceived allies, or you will turn on them for not conforming to your PoV

My money is on the former.

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Originally Posted by Solowing

There it is. If a point becomes an inconvenient truth, don't address it at all, move attention away from what you cant reconcile or address. Re-iterate your point, and start from there again.

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well now your just projecting :P but my nap is due , should we meet here again same time tomorrow? you promise? i'll hold you to it~

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Originally Posted by ShadowyZero

well now your just projecting :P but my nap is due , should we meet here again same time tomorrow? you promise? i'll hold you to it~

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Enjoy your sweet dreams of being a martyr lol

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Originally Posted by Solowing

Enjoy your sweet dreams of being a martyr lol

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i did enjoy my sleep thnx ~ but anyways looks like people have found more grounded solutions and compromises they don't need me here any further <3 but if you want to keep yapping with me feel free too ;3

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Originally Posted by Solowing

There it is. If a point becomes an inconvenient truth, don't address it at all, move attention away from what you cant reconcile or address. Re-iterate your point, and start from there again.

Im watching you dance around Nyastra. Im aware of what you're doing.

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Originally Posted by Nyastra

The disconnect here is between “this sounds feasible to me as a player” and “this is fair, scalable, and sustainable for the game as a whole.” Those are not the same thing.

Simply asserting that a proposal is feasible doesn’t make it fair or consequence-free. Players aren’t responsible for maintaining parity between millions of users, preserving years of legacy investment, or balancing technical debt with long-term support. Square Enix is. That distinction matters.

Acknowledging constraints isn’t defending stagnation. It’s recognizing that housing touches gil sinks, retention, RP communities, FC structures, and long-term ownership. If a proposal can’t clearly explain who benefits, who loses, and why that trade-off is acceptable, then it isn’t a finished solution, it’s a wishlist.

Criticizing SE for slow or incremental change is fair. Claiming there’s a zero-cost, zero-conflict fix they’re simply choosing not to implement is not.

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Originally Posted by ShadowyZero

i did enjoy my sleep thnx ~ but anyways looks like people have found more grounded solutions and compromises they don't need me here any further <3 but if you want to keep yapping with me feel free too ;3

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Right on schedule. This is the part where you stop addressing them to not make enemies. So we're in phase two, dismissal. You've tried to be nice and it's not getting you anywhere because their point of view hasn't shifted. So now you're just trying to ignore their response. . And if they keep pushing, the way you respond to them is going to change drastically.

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Originally Posted by Solowing

Right on schedule. This is the part where you stop addressing them to not make enemies.

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oh good you're here! see i was wondering if you were going to just bow out of this thread an go to another one lol or if you'd just come back to keep yapping along xD and why should i be enemies with someone who hasn't caused me to have an ire with them? hating for the sake of it doesn't really add up now does it? and i told Nyastra already i don't agree with their fatalistic sounding tone of "Costs vs Benefits" but other than that they've been slightly more sympathetic to the opposite side of the argument which is how respectful debates happen, both sides shake hands agree on at least one thing, they agree to disagree on the rest and don't diminish eachother further. and the one thing that Nyastra and i were able to settle on is that there does need to be further changes and implementations to at the very least curb some of the problems people have without it completely snubbing out the old system entirely.

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Originally Posted by ShadowyZero

oh good you're here! see i was wondering if you were going to just bow out of this thread an go to another one lol or if you'd just come back to keep yapping along xD and why should i be enemies with someone who hasn't caused me to have an ire with them? hating for the sake of it doesn't really add up now does it? and i told Nyastra already i don't agree with their fatalistic sounding tone of "Costs vs Benefits" but other than that they've been slightly more sympathetic to the opposite side of the argument which is how respectful debates happen, both sides shake hands agree on at least one thing, they agree to disagree on the rest and don't diminish eachother further. and the one thing that Nyastra and i were able to settle on is that there does need to be further changes and implementations to at the very least curb some of the problems people have without it completely snubbing out the old system entirely.

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Well , for a start , would you like me to go to your thread with your 3 replies and pretty give you the exact same reasoning? I'm trying to be very respectful of the echo chamber your are trying to create. Because this isn't the first time you've done this when you get mad at something I say , you run creating a new thread to complain, it gets no traction, nobody responds , then you run back to the thread with more traction , and then start up there.

At this point , the threads kind of derailed , it's just pointing out your hypocrisy, double standard, and inability to see anyone's perspective outside of the one you want.

I can give you solutions to get a plot. But your solution doesn't give me what I want.It just punishes me for having it prior to instanced housing or takes it away entirely.

Your response is "who cares its a video game"

While you complain about a video game virtual house...

It's crazy you can't even see your own hypocrisy. Lol must be all that self righteousness blocking your view

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Originally Posted by Solowing

Well , for a start , would you like me to go to your thread with your 3 replies and pretty give you the exact same reasoning? I'm trying to be very respectful of the echo chamber your are trying to create. Because this isn't the first time you've done this when you get mad at something I say , you run creating a new thread to complain, it gets no traction, nobody responds , then you run back to the thread with more traction , and then start up there.

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i come to threads like these because i agree with the frustrations people have with this game's poorly designed and implemented housing feature. not because of a popularity contest. and i make other threads because i am adding too the spreading of awareness and push for changes.
you and i have disdain and discomfort towards eachother for reasons i've pointed out many times already but you insist that you're not part of the aggression other posters have even pointed out how much they disliked some of your takes an even asked you to stop or go away. did you listen to them then? the answers is no you did not you continued to push your agenda an felt validated when others of the same mindset as yours came in too continue to downplay and discredit those other posters.
so its a bit too late now for you to be crying wolf now isn't it? :^)
and now that i've continuously given you back a taste of your own medicine all of a sudden you are the victim here, and i'm just the big bad troll on the internet making this place worser for everyone else because i won't conform to how you feel or think.
you are more then welcome to join my other threads if you'd like i'm not the forum police or thought police nor am i crying here for you to not make a comment or reply.

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Originally Posted by Solowing

Imagine being on a public forum and then trying to police what suggestions can be made and who can post.

That's called "Controlling a narrative"

If you have to make up a term to win your argument because using it correctly would disprove your own complaint. You've already lost. Housing is housing. You and whoever can disagree, disagree with facts all you want. But it doesn't care how you feel. You're just arguing with your emotions.

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still mad huh? lol mad that a bigger group won't see your perspective eh? you know if you really wanted to hype up the current system you love so much why don't you ever make a thread of your own to explain and show why you like it so much? you obviously have those that will agree with you.
but explain to me why you come to these threads to bother people not happy with it? thats something you've yet to tell me or anyone for that matter you leave us in the dark to speculate an make assumptions.
are you just lonely Roll? is that what it is? most threads i see on this forum relating to housing are complaints or requests for more things but rarely do we ever see someone post "housing appreciation thread" or "i love this game's housing"
why is that? you make alot of claims but these supposed facts you try to claim don't align with the player sentiment here clearly and plainly. and even if you go to outside this little bubble of SE's control and purview you'll see that its the same thing as here people are not actively promoting or praising this system they are complaining about it, wishing it was better, making a joke of it, and thats because its such a chore to even obtain it let alone keep it. its only gotten worser over time.
ignoring the clear signs that there in fact issues with this system is just you closing your eyes an pretending they don't exist, its delusional.
your refusal to acknowledge said issues means your are culpable in perpetrating it that you support those issues cause they don't directly effect you.
and thats what it keeps circling back to is YOU which is a selfish mindset its ignorant.

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Originally Posted by ShadowyZero

still mad huh? lol mad that a bigger group won't see your perspective eh? you know if you really wanted to hype up the current system you love so much why don't you ever make a thread of your own to explain and show why you like it so much? you obviously have those that will agree with you.
but explain to me why you come to these threads to bother people not happy with it? thats something you've yet to tell me or anyone for that matter you leave us in the dark to speculate an make assumptions.
are you just lonely Roll? is that what it is? most threads i see on this forum relating to housing are complaints or requests for more things but rarely do we ever see someone post "housing appreciation thread" or "i love this game's housing"
why is that? you make alot of claims but these supposed facts you try to claim don't align with the player sentiment here clearly and plainly. and even if you go to outside this little bubble of SE's control and purview you'll see that its the same thing as here people are not actively promoting or praising this system they are complaining about it, wishing it was better, making a joke of it, and thats because its such a chore to even obtain it let alone keep it. its only gotten worser over time.
ignoring the clear signs that there in fact issues with this system is just you closing your eyes an pretending they don't exist, its delusional.
your refusal to acknowledge said issues means your are culpable in perpetrating it that you support those issues cause they don't directly effect you.
and thats what it keeps circling back to is YOU which is a selfish mindset its ignorant.

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If you're not happy with the system, World of Warcraft has the exact solution you asked for. Oh you don't want to go? Then you are all talk and no action. An should be treated as such.

You're just a complainer whos going to stick around regardless.

just put the credit card info in the subscription page lil bro..

Can I make a Solowing & ShadowyZero duke it out in the final phase of M13S thread at this point or...?

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Originally Posted by Nyastra

Can I make a Solowing & ShadowyZero duke it out in the final phase of M13S thread at this point or...?

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I should ask for a mechanic where a question is "Are Apts Housing?" pops up and if you answer wrong your group wipes. :P
https://media1.tenor.com/m/8kCSTOFZB...toro-smirk.gif

idk, why am I insisting on trying to get straightforward answers from him. Its like "Stop running..Just answer the question dude.."

Guilty pleasure I guess. Gives me something hypothetical to think about.

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Originally Posted by Solowing

If you're not happy with the system, World of Warcraft has the exact solution you asked for. Oh you don't want to go? Then you are all talk and no action. An should be treated as such.


You're just a complainer whos going to stick around regardless.

just put the credit card info in the subscription page lil bro..

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and there it is if you annoy SW enough he's going to fall back on every toxic FF players usual reply to things they don't like to hear "just go play other games bro. if you're unhappy here." to dismiss anyone's arguments or points magnificent i finally did it made him reveal his true stripes at last. i.e. ELITIST/PURIST and entitled GATEKEEPER.

so there you go decent folks who are trying to advocate for change or a middle ground we shouldn't take his words or opinions at face value anymore he's going to continue to grift an harass, downplay, disenfranchise, gaslight, and stalk you all so he can elite on housing and gate keep it.

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Originally Posted by Solowing

I should ask for a mechanic where a question is "Are Apts Housing?" pops up and if you answer wrong your group wipes. :P
https://media1.tenor.com/m/8kCSTOFZB...toro-smirk.gif

idk, why am I insisting on trying to get straightforward answers from him. Its like "Stop running..Just answer the question dude.."

Guilty pleasure I guess. Gives me something hypothetical to think about.

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Housing Savage (legit finally)

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Originally Posted by ShadowyZero

and there it is if you annoy SW enough he's going to fall back on every toxic FF players usual reply to things they don't like to hear "just go play other games bro. if you're unhappy here." to dismiss anyone's arguments or points magnificent i finally did it made him reveal his true stripes at last. i.e. ELITIST/PURIST and entitled GATEKEEPER.

so there you go decent folks who are trying to advocate for change or a middle ground we shouldn't take his words or opinions at face value anymore he's going to continue to grift an harass, downplay, disenfranchise, gaslight, and stalk you all so he can elite on housing and gate keep it.

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He is not wrong though, if a game makes you unbearably unhappy, go play another game. God, Blade and Soul made me unbearably unhappy when every time I logged in the gear path has changed and I was not geared high enough to even be able to take the correct paths - hence quitting. BUT that does not mean don't advocate for change where needed within reasonable parameters obviously.

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Originally Posted by Nyastra

He is not wrong though, if a game makes you unbearably unhappy, go play another game.

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i am sorry a game you loved made you unhappy to the point of quitting i've been there myself in fact with a game really enjoyed an wanted to do better but sadly it was shutdown and even worse they brought it back an made it severely bad to the point i was gunna break something lol cause thats how frustrating it was and i had the same people say to me "just go play something else." when i tried to ask for change or to point out why i think certain systems were bad. but what if i don't want to leave? what if i want the game to do better ? sure its just a game to some people but to others its an experience that brings joy into their life or relaxation when there is no other better games or things to do. why should i stand by and let something i have passion about go down the drain without even having tried to put up a fight for it?
so no i will not leave or abandon a game because i've been dissatisfied i will fight tooth an nail until the company itself pulls the plug at least that way i can feel better that i made a real difference either for myself or for small contingent having my voice heard or noticed means that it wasn't all in vain, that all my hours of investment, were not done for nothing. so what if i didn't get the feature i desired ? at least people will remember that someone tried against all the odds and that can at least have some impact.

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Originally Posted by ShadowyZero

at least people will remember that someone tried against all the odds and that can at least have some impact.

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Originally Posted by Solowing

Enjoy your sweet dreams of being a martyr lol

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You have a good day man. Im tapping out after that one.

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Originally Posted by Solowing

You have a good day man. Im tapping out after that one.

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may you finally know peace and find common grounds with the group you belong too https://tenor.com/view/jim-carrey-salute-gif-27701630

and please do not come back to threads such as these for your own sanity and ours. we'll leave you alone if you leave us alone.

on a more positive note: my fc leader finally won a house for our guild \o/ and has been mad busy decking the halls lol he won a medium in the goblet.

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Originally Posted by Nyastra

He is not wrong though, if a game makes you unbearably unhappy, go play another game. God, Blade and Soul made me unbearably unhappy when every time I logged in the gear path has changed and I was not geared high enough to even be able to take the correct paths - hence quitting. BUT that does not mean don't advocate for change where needed within reasonable parameters obviously.

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People should have rights for their own opinion and unhappiness. If someone dislikes the game, it's most likely due to recent changes or something that devs did which was wrong. Just because most of us are negative doesn't mean that we want to go to another game. Putting this altogether means that we are fighting for better rights and a better game design because some of us still hold this game and hope it will eventually get fixed *spoilers, it won't probably*.

He is right though, housing system is garbage compared to other games and mainly made so it keeps your sub. Nothing else.

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Originally Posted by MayuAmakura

People should have rights for their own opinion and unhappiness. If someone dislikes the game, it's most likely due to recent changes or something that devs did which was wrong. Just because most of us are negative doesn't mean that we want to go to another game. Putting this altogether means that we are fighting for better rights and a better game design because some of us still hold this game and hope it will eventually get fixed *spoilers, it won't probably*.

He is right though, housing system is garbage compared to other games and mainly made so it keeps your sub. Nothing else.

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WoW gave him what he asked for and he doesn't want it.

So rather then going to the system he wanted, the whole system has to change here? Like I love Ace Combat, but Ace Combat 7 Pvp sucks. So I play Ace Combat for the Story, and GTAO as a Pseudo Ace Combat Online. Until MFS makes it over to PS5

That's not even addressing the issue of creating a second housing system to specifically undermine the first one.

But people addressing it with "Everyone gets one though!" is being willfully ignorant of the nuances. And is using their sense of right and wrong as fact an not opinion. If I ask why Apts aren't housing, they immediately jump to the opinion "its not good enough" but opinions are subjective. The facts are Apts are "Housing" and have the exact same functionality on the interior of a plot of ANY size. If the housing system sucks for Apts they suck for Mansions too. Unless its specifically the size that sucks? They might as well rework the entire housing system? But what about those who may like it? They cant have a say because people like trying to morally browbeat them over the head with emotional arguments and morality policing? Because "everyone should have a mansion, and its not fair everyone doesn't have the size of the plot they want!" Despite all of us having the same opportunity (not outcome) to get a plot. And if you disagree you're gatekeeping?

As you go up in each housing size, the item density drops. Objectively Mansions have the worse size to item density ratio. But is most sought after because of purely its size. You have to reduce the size of your "house" to get the most out of mansions. Where my Apt can be fully decorated with density, no need to cut off sections of it. Subjectively to me, that makes Apts a more appealing choice to me. I don't want to have to cut down the size because the item slots cant support its density, and I don't want too many repeated rooms.

Youre fighting for a different system, not so much a better one as a instanced system will have its own set of drawbacks and losses switching to a instanced system will create.. Its not "bad" just "different" just like the ward system is not "bad" just "different". If we get top down changes, eventually you can make it up to a Mansion sized Apt. But I want them to do that over time to respect my investment of keeping my plot active over an extended period. I am here through the games thick and thin, highs and lows to maintain my plot. And players demanding something requiring that investment while also giving themselves the ability to sidestep that commitment because they don't want to. While holding me to that commitment is messed up. And something only a few posters here are seeing as a valid concern while a few here are 404ing and going back to "But everyone gets it, so its fine!"


DCUO has a instanced Housing system that is actually baked into Metropolis and Gotham, everyone gets a plot where they choose but because of its instanced nature. They need to have you on a list for you to see their location. Parties or Venues? Hope you like adding every single unique individual person to your allowed list to enter. Making it more of a hassle then its worth doing. Most of its players don't really engage in housing there. Had they used XIVs unique limited supply system giving each location a unique player fingerprint, that's baked into the world itself? That can be freely accessed? Demand would SKYROCKET, but the same problems of accessibility would crop up.

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Originally Posted by MayuAmakura

He is right though, housing system is garbage compared to other games and mainly made so it keeps your sub. Nothing else.

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This is a Instanced housing system, thousands of players may live in this location, and the only ones I can see are those who have added me to their entry list. I cant even invite a friend over to another friends home unless they add them. Its accessible to all, but less accessible to reach others not within your circles.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/G_bdXMvX...name=4096x4096
Its not a magic bullet, its a trade off. And personally I don't like that trade.

But you should go to Excalibur, Lavander Beds, Ward 8 Plot 46 to check out someones plot who loves themselves some pink. IDK them, its just a random players plot I liked. An I felt like sharing their plot location with you. You don't need permission, its open and easy enough to locate if you know the ward system. In a instanced system, I wouldn't be able to do that, I'd have to contact them to get permission for their house to show up, I couldn't organically come across their home. Where I have had friends bring friends over while I've been offline to show them my housing units here in XIV without me ever knowing who they brought over. Limited in supply, however its much easier to access to a general audience that can organically come across it.

What if they did a maintenance fee like New World did that's the same as paying a property tax to maintain ownership. They could even make it that it's deducted or paid through gil on your retainers, also this idea would not be valid for inactive subs.

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Originally Posted by Solowing

This is a Instanced housing system, thousands of players may live in this location, and the only ones I can see are those who have added me to their entry list. I cant even invite a friend over to another friends home unless they add them. Its accessible to all, but less accessible to reach others not within your circles.

Its not a magic bullet, its a trade off. And personally I don't like that trade.

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You're using a single example of an implementation of instanced housing with obvious design flaws to write off the entire concept of instanced housing, without even considering that things could ever be implemented differently.

There are countless other games with instanced housing that work very differently from what you're described. Rift, for example, has instanced housing (dimensions) but enables players to find and visit other player's 'housing' better than even FFXIV's systems provide. There is a dimension directory system for player 'housing' that lets players name and tag their personal dimensions, similar to what FF has, but they're also fully searchable from the unified directory. Dimensions can be set to be fully accessible to the public, friends only, or otherwise private/invite only. Players can also upvote other players dimensions if they like them, and you can filter the directory search based on certain tags, number of upvotes, by player name, friended players, etc. This actually allows for players to setup venues for RP or otherwise and advertise them entirely through the dimension directory, which in FFXIV players have to rely on shout spam in cities and cluttering up the party finder with venue advertisements.

It makes more sense as to why you're so quick to write off instanced housing as a 'limited and flawed' if you're basing your opinion off a single game's flawed attempt at implementing instanced housing. I really do think you need to be more open minded about what's actually possible with instanced housing, because it can and has been done far better than what FFXIV even has now with ward housing.

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Originally Posted by Xylira

single game's flawed attempt at implementing instanced housing.

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You're expecting a 10 year old game, to scrap it housing system for an entirely new one, like rifts? For no RoI unless they plan of reworking in micro transactions for just the smile on your face? I think you need to see reality. They are too deep in the hole to come out now and the only path forward is improving the system we have.

Improve the system, not undermine it. Improve plots first, and then push for apt changes. If Plots got a x2 size increase, then boom. You could argue. Hey, Plots are much bigger, can apts, get the plot layout of their smaller original counterpart as a Apt layout? Id be all for it as it tries to keep pace, but it doesn't encroach on housing that is subjected to the demo timer.

That way people can complain about their Apt mansion isn't as good as a Housing layout of a Ward plot. And you can tell them "shaddap, back in my day we were limited to Apt room sizes! Be Grateful Kid!"

Just like I tell people, back in my day, Apts didn't exist, so their was NO WAY TO PARTAKE IN HOUSING @ ALL if you didn't have a Plot O_O. So be grateful for Apartments, because at least you can decorate without a plot unlike back in my day lol

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Originally Posted by Solowing

I think you need to be realistic, different games do housing differently. And this is just one of them. Every other game has better housing then XIV, they can play those games for housing and return to XIV for Content.

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So we're back to "go play something else if you don't like it".

Great argument, very constructive. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Solowing

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You standards are extremely high lol

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Editing your posts when you get called out, classy.

You're the one that has been setting the standard as to what you find acceptable with regards to housing. You provided an example of a game with instanced housing and pointed out an obvious flaw as a reason why you don't want instanced housing. That was you, you set that standard.

I simply pointed out that the limit you take issue with isn't inherent to all instanced housing, and provided an example of another game that does it better than not only your example, but better than even what FFXIV offers with regards to housing discoverability and accessibility.

But I guess we shouldn't ever improve the game systems at all, they just are what they are and if we don't like it we should just go play something else. Again, according to you.

Adding to reply to Solowing's second edit

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Originally Posted by Solowing

You're expecting a 10 year old game, to scrap it housing system for an entirely new one, like rifts? For no RoI unless they plan of reworking in micro transactions for just the smile on your face?

Or creating a second housing system, made to undermine the primary one.

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In other threads I've stated before that if SE can make the ward system better such that it drastically increases housing supply and makes it accessible to all players, I'm all for it. But I'm also being realistic, as should you, that the ward system is fundamentally flawed on a technical level such that it strains the game servers if they add too many wards.

Every suggestion I've made has been to add a housing system in parallel to wards as an alternative option for players, not a replacement. As for the ROI on the addition, obviously it's through making housing vastly more accessible to players, and therefore increasing overall player satisfaction, and conversely it would be doing so in a way that doesn't require SE to invest in server hardware expansion, which is clearly a limiting factor with the current hardware shortages. The groundwork is basically already done per what SE has provably shown is possible with regards to island sanctuaries.

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Originally Posted by Xylira

So we're back to "go play something else if you don't like it".

Great argument, very constructive. :rolleyes:

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"Oh I like this housing system!"

"Well I dont like it and it needs to be like RIFTS Housing system!"

"So why not play Rift for its housing system?"

"No, I want it here"

"But I like this housing system"

"IDC, bring that system here"

"Why don't you go play that?"

"Because I don't want to play that"

"But I like this housing system"

"NO, it needs to be like RIFT!"

"THEN GO PLAY RIFTS HOUSING SYSTEM!"

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Originally Posted by Xylira

Editing your posts when you get called out, classy.

In other threads I've stated before that if SE can make the ward system better such that it drastically increases housing supply and makes it accessible to all players, I'm all for it. But I'm also being realistic, as should you, that the ward system is fundamentally flawed on a technical level such that it strains the game servers if they add too many wards.

Every suggestion I've made has been to add a housing system in parallel to wards as an alternative option for players, not a replacement. As for the ROI on the addition, obviously it's through making housing vastly more accessible to players, and therefore increasing overall player satisfaction, and conversely it would be doing so in a way that doesn't require SE to invest in server hardware expansion, which is clearly a limiting factor with the current hardware shortages. The groundwork is basically already done per what SE has provably shown is possible with regards to island sanctuaries.

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I edit my posts all the time, the traffic is slow enough I finished editing and that's seen as the original. Has nothing to do with you calling me out, refresh frequently enough you'll see it gets edited multiple times, up or down. I stop editing once it gets quoted to not mix anyone up.

You are expecting them to take another games housing system 1:1 idealistic especially given XIV housing system has been here for over a decade now. Not really considering those who enjoy this ward system. As well as happily making a duplicate system designed to sidestep the primary housing ruleset like that equity under unequal rulesets is fair.

3 Posters have pointed that out. You haven't addressed it, and reverted back to "Instanced Housing for all so its fine!"

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Originally Posted by Nyastra

What I’m pushing back on is the idea that instancing automatically removes all conflict or fairness concerns. History shows it doesn’t.

Saying “this is a game, so there don’t need to be trade-offs” ignores the reality of persistent, shared online systems. Housing in FFXIV isn’t a single-player feature, it’s visible, social, finite by design, and for many players, a primary space of escape, creativity, or community. Those qualities inherently introduce constraints and responsibilities, regardless of intent.

I agree that both ward and instanced housing could coexist. Where we differ is that I don’t think this happens without new friction points: size choice, pricing parity, demo rules, social visibility, and perceived value between systems. Those aren’t moral objections, they’re implementation questions that must be answered.

A complete overhaul may be one option, but it’s not the only one, nor is it a guaranteed fix. Square Enix has consistently chosen incremental changes precisely because drastic resets would invalidate years of player investment and community structures, especially on RP-heavy worlds.

So no, I don’t think this “fixes itself” cleanly through drastic change alone. I think it requires acknowledging that any solution will help some players and frustrate others. That doesn’t mean change shouldn’t happen. It means pretending there’s a zero-cost, zero-conflict solution isn’t realistic.

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We are at a fairness issue , and hand waving it away because "everyone gets it" isn't addressing that problem. Its selectively solving your problem while ignoring every other problem you created in doing so.

I want top down changes, that way Apt standards go up without encroaching on plots without Plots getting improvement first. The status quo remains but everyone's standard rises over time. Eventually maybe you could have Apt sized Mansions, but maybe Plot have different larger layouts. Which makes them more appealing them mansions. Improvements but the status quo and its rules remain the same. Im not reworking the system, I'm not disrupting it by making it so some player with a small, feels slighted because they left for a month and lost their plot, but another player left their mansion for 6 months and it didn't demo.

You are looking for instant gratification that puts you on equal footing with plot owners, without the commitment. You are going to have to give something up, or be held to the same rules as plot owners. Or you could give more to the Plot system, and use that as justification to ask for plot sized Apts...(Which is what I recommend) Everything stays the same functionally, Apts will be non-demo but can reach OG plot sizes. The progress isn't as fast as you want it, but you are getting what you want within the current system over time..

Im with you on expanding the sub outside of plots, I want Housers in my ward. No these sub farms that turn plots into a means to an end.

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Originally Posted by Solowing

"Oh I like this housing system!"

"Well I dont like it and it needs to be like RIFTS Housing system!"

"So why not play Rift for its housing system?"

"No, I want it here"

"But I like this housing system"

"IDC, bring that system here"

"Why don't you go play that?"

"Because I don't want to play that"

"But I like this housing system"

"NO, it needs to be like RIFT!"

"THEN GO PLAY RIFTS HOUSING SYSTEM!"

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Solowing

You are expecting them to take another games housing system 1:1 idealistic especially given XIV housing system has been here for over a decade now. Not really considering those who enjoy this ward system. As well as happily making a duplicate system designed to sidestep the primary housing ruleset like that equity under unequal rulesets is fair.

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Do you often have delusional one sided arguments with yourself? I never said nor implied any of this strawman argument you've constructed in your mind.

You claimed instanced housing was bad because of 'X' reason. I countered your statement by pointing out that in fact, no, instanced housing isn't inherently bad for 'X' reason because another game with instanced housing completely circumvents 'X'. Nowhere did I say that the housing system in said game should be copied over to FF. I only said that it does many things better with the implication that SE should look into maybe using that as reference for ways to improve FF's housing system from the mess it currently is.

I will repeat, again, for probably the sixth time, my desire is for the housing system in FFXIV to be better. That means more customizability, more decoration limit, more options, and most importantly more accessibility to the system for all players. Instanced housing is one means toward making those things possible. And sure, I fully agree that it's not necessarily the only way. If SE can do all of the aforementioned through the existing ward system, then fine. However, there are technical flaws that make the existing ward system very limiting, which is why I think considering other iterations of housing should be considered so the game isn't forever held back by technical debt caused by past design decisions.

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Originally Posted by Xylira

I will repeat, again, for probably the sixth time, my desire is for the housing system in FFXIV to be better. That means more customizability, more decoration limit, more options, and most importantly more accessibility to the system for all players. Instanced housing is one means toward making those things possible. And sure, I fully agree that it's not necessarily the only way. If SE can do all of the aforementioned through the existing ward system, then fine. However, there are technical flaws that make the existing ward system very limiting, which is why I think considering other iterations of housing should be considered so the game isn't forever held back by technical debt caused by past design decisions.

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Top down changes, over time you'll get what you want.

Ive read through all 12 pages of this thread at this point, there were a lot of good points and a lot of bad points, but the biggest take awy I have from reading everything is that Solowing is not a nice person and argues in bad faith and tries to bring down every single person that disagrees with them. Can we please stick to the topic at hand and stop attacking people? This is supposed to be a conversation about how housing needs to change, and it does. Using the excuse that its good how it is because its exclusive and gives people a sense of FOMO is not a good argument. Housing SHOULDN'T be exclusive, is that not why the changes were made to make it a lottery system instead of the old clicking system? This is also coming from someone that preferred that system because if its meant to be exclusive well, that was the more exclusive method. Now its more "Fair" because its a lottery system, but its not because you have FC's taking up 5-10 plots in a single ward, how exactly is that supposed to be fair when the plots are so limited? I have to agree with the instanced housing solution, that is the best method to fix a lot of the problems there are with housing. They don't need to get rid of the wards with this method they can just make them two separate kinds of housing, and who actually cares if there is a different set of rules for the different kind of house you have? That argument falls a bit flat when you realize that apartments are ALREADY a different set of rules from plots when you realize apartments are not subject to demolition. I saw someone's post about using the buildings in Solution 9 as instanced condos and such and I think that's a great idea because you can have different sizes for what different people can afford, and it can all be instanced just like apartments are already, doing that, they would fall under the second set of rules that is already primarily established for apartment housing with the differences from wards and the player base would get the best of both worlds.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Echohitomi

Ive read through all 12 pages of this thread at this point, there were a lot of good points and a lot of bad points, but the biggest take awy I have from reading everything is that Solowing is not a nice person and argues in bad faith and tries to bring down every single person that disagrees with them..

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Is this is how you shape a personal attack as a point?

You guys are way too used to having an echo chamber. And swatting aside facts you don't like.

Again when they said "condo" that's another way of saying "Small Plot+ without the demo timer"

Trying to intentionally be vague about what a "condo" is. In terms of size and functionality.

Multiple posters have mentioned where the lines of fairness get drawn. And that's a topic that needs to be broached. But some of you keep running back to emotional arguments and smearing.

If you cant see that having 2 similar housing systems and hold both participants to different rules is unfair and problematic. but I think you're indifferent to that for the end-goal. I guess maybe I am mean, but at that's least honest.

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Originally Posted by Solowing

You guys are way too used to having an echo chamber. And swatting aside facts you don't like.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Solowing

Multiple posters have mentioned where the lines of fairness get drawn. And that's a topic that needs to be broached. But some of you keep running back to emotional arguments and smearing.

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Interesting statements considering a very strong case could be made that you're behaving exactly the way you're accusing everyone else of behaving.

You've repeatedly misunderstood, ignored, misrepresented, and outright fabricated meaning and intent of what other posters, myself included, have said in regards to the conversation. You constantly fall back on appeals to emotion about how any proposed improvement that involves instanced housing would be 'unfair' to you, while ironically ignoring how unfair things currently are for everyone else. You then have the audacity of accusing other posters as being 'entitled' or 'greedy' for wanting wider access to housing being made available.

So I have to agree with Echohitomi, you haven't been engaging the conversation in good faith.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xylira

You then have the audacity of accusing other posters as being 'entitled' or 'greedy' for wanting wider access to housing being made available.

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Entitlement stems from a pervasive, often learned belief that one deserves special treatment, resources, or admiration regardless of actual contribution or merit. It is driven by psychological factors like narcissism, childhood upbringing, and a defense mechanism against anxiety or perceived injustice. It is a self-centered, emotional state reinforced by cultural messages.

Yea and I stand by it. Because that's the definition that is fitting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nyastra

What I’m pushing back on is the idea that instancing automatically removes all conflict or fairness concerns. History shows it doesn’t.

Saying “this is a game, so there don’t need to be trade-offs” ignores the reality of persistent, shared online systems. Housing in FFXIV isn’t a single-player feature, it’s visible, social, finite by design, and for many players, a primary space of escape, creativity, or community. Those qualities inherently introduce constraints and responsibilities, regardless of intent.

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We all went through the Ward system for a plot, and you have the opportunity to obtain a plot LIKE EVERYONE ELSE.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by s32ialx

Also the whole "sidestep" the demolition timer is the whole point it's in the title. Why are you so salty about this?

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nyastra

even if condos are permanent, customizable, a gil sink, and optional, that doesn’t automatically guarantee fairness. It still depends on how they compare to ward housing in practice — cost, size, value, restrictions, and long-term impact.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nyastra

The disconnect here is between “this sounds feasible to me as a player” and “this is fair, scalable, and sustainable for the game as a whole.” Those are not the same thing.

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I'm not going to be tiptoeing around people sensitivity to the truth. Like Apartments are housing, and once they offered you that "housing" as a feature was fulfilled. Its the players onus to find their own plot as Apt as accessible (which is is) and easily obtainable.

"Equal outcome with unequal rules" describes an equity-focused approach that applies different standards or resources to individuals based on their circumstances, aiming to ensure everyone reaches the same result, often contrasting with "equality of opportunity," where the same rules apply to all.

Key Concepts and Perspectives

Definition of Equity: This approach, often called equity, argues that because individuals have different starting points or abilities, treating them exactly the same (equality) can reinforce disparities.

Mechanism: It involves providing more, or different, support to those with greater needs to achieve a uniform outcome, such as providing more financial aid to a lower-income person than a high-income person.

Critique: Critics argue this approach requires systemic discrimination, creates unfairness by ignoring merit, and involves coercive, top-down control to force results.

Contrast with Equality: While equal rules (equality) focus on the process being the same for everyone, equal outcomes focus solely on the final result.

People often mistake equity for equality because both concepts aim for fairness and justice, often leading them to be used interchangeably in casual conversation. While equality means providing the same resources to everyone, equity involves providing resources tailored to individual needs to ensure equal outcomes.

Shared Goal of Fairness: Both terms are used when discussing social justice and improving conditions, causing confusion between the two distinct methods.

Surface-Level Similarity: Both concepts appear to aim for a "level playing field," leading people to assume treating everyone the same (equality) is the same as giving everyone what they need to succeed (equity).

Lack of Differentiation: Many, even in professional contexts, may not understand that equality assumes everyone starts at the same level, whereas equity recognizes systemic barriers require different support levels.

Goal-Oriented Misconception: Some may view equity merely as a tool to achieve equality, merging the two concepts into one idea of "fairness".

In summary, equality ignores specific, individual needs while equity prioritizes them to achieve a fair outcome, a nuance frequently missed.

Some people think Equity = Equality and that simply not the case. (college course stuff apparently, I was told by my roommate. I think its pretty cool to have that topic come up in a forum setting for a video game.) Its just that's their no systemic barriers here. So every attempt to re-write the rules to favor those without is creating equity, not equality.

If I'm "not nice" oh well, I'm sorry that facts get in the way of your opinions but I cant help that. But I'm not going to let your emotions dictate my response. Nystra is more neutral in their words, but progress isn't going to be made until we talk about the unfairness issue. But this keeps getting dragged back to "but everyone gets it so its ok!". Which I return to "that's equal outcome, not equal opportunity" And we bounce between <everyone should have equal outcomes, and everyone already has equal opportunity>

In any financial transaction there is one question both parties have to ask themselves, what leverage do I have in this transaction? (in regards to a plot) and the answer in your case is none. "~2 and a half men"

You keep subbing until you get a plot (not housing because you already have access to it via apartments), and if you have to keep using it or you lose it, indirectly tied you to sub a few times a year. It's a game where the house always wins. And you're asking the house to give up leverage. An they arnt going to.

I keep asking for the definition of housing. Here it is


hous·ing1
/ˈhouziNG/
noun
noun: housing; plural noun: housings
1.
houses and apartments considered collectively.

I really don't understand how am i arguing in bad faith , pulling up the dictionary? How can we argue with the dictionary?

Exterior and interior housing is available without having a plot. Tell me where that statement is untrue?

Which is why i say you bit more specific , so you don't encapsulate housing overall , with the plots that you actually want.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Solowing

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That's a lot of gish gollop to say that you don't want more people getting access to housing because it would hurt your feelings.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xylira

That's a lot of gish gollop to say that you don't want more people getting access to housing because it would hurt your feelings.

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you don't feel like apartment's a good enough.And you feel entitled to something more..

You can think mighty highly yourself if you think I care about your virtual house. I've said the rules need to be applied evenly.And you cannot create a secondary housing system to sidestep , the first one.

As even the OP said it themselves that was the intent of the condo system.

You're doing with shadow does and run to personal attacks when you run out of steam. I've been saying , is they have a counter argument for every argument that you could make , and i'm simply giving you those arguments and you guys are upset over that.

Imagine getting mad at somebody for saying everyone should be held to the same standard lol. But if this is the sentiment you share, I think we should be able to ask square, can you give us the Neck tattoo? And while we're at it , you can add my name to the credits of ARR. It's not fair that that group gets an exclusive tattoo and their names added to the credits. I think it's more fair for everyone if we all have access to it.So we should get it , and if whoever disagrees is just gatekeeping

It's pretty easy to undermine the reason why they got the neck tattoo.If I can frame it as an accessibility problem. And say who disagrees is gatekeeping.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Solowing

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Yep, you really must not care when you can't help but complain about how it would be unfair to you when anyone asks for housing in the game to be expanded and more accessible to all players. ;)