On this day a year ago, Plunge was taken from us (and other Job Identity)

I think the real reason for that push against damaging gap closers is that people don't like that kind of skill expression, which is fair. But denying this is about skill expression is delusional, because it's by design an opportunity cost kind of decision making.
The reason why I'm no huge fan of damaging gap closers is not for the skill expression it brings, I actually like it, but because the kind of skill expression it generates is essentially centered around spreadsheet encounter planning, not much different than how triplecast was used or other tools like that.

As a healer, I am very tempted to say this... We had job identity?

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Originally Posted by Valence

The reason why I'm no huge fan of damaging gap closers is not for the skill expression it brings, I actually like it, but because the kind of skill expression it generates is essentially centered around spreadsheet encounter planning, not much different than how triplecast was used or other tools like that.

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Largely same -- or rather, I don't mind having them and but also don't terribly mind not having them on some jobs... so long as there's still some variety available.

And I would agree with the larger principle too, that the skill expression it brings out isn't particularly exciting within the context of current encounter design... if the same couldn't be said for nearly every aspect of skill expression within the context of current encounter design.

Given that virtually all other skill expressions have the exact same problem, though, it seems like encounter design is something better dealt with as soon as possible rather than cementing it further through further emptying and/or sandpapering of our job kits / individual skill-expressors.

Let's compare it real quick to another area that I don't think is fundamentally all that compelling -- tank stances:

As they existed, tank stances were just a way to play "The Price is Right" (picking when to leave tank stance and never return to it) against your highest Enmity dps because...

1. There were no eHP checks against which survival would depend on the tank stance.
2. There were no early DPS checks for which one would need to drop enmity in favor of damage early on and make that enmity back up later at cost to overall damage.
3. The added defensive value was virtually never an rDPS gain relative [e.g., via extra healer damage] once considering the cost to your own damage.

Fix any of those contexts, though, and avoid the button bloat (you only really need the 1 button we already have now to manage all the agency tank stances have ever provided), and you have what could be pretty damn decent. Instead, though, we simply removed that whole potential aspect of tank agency altogether.

I was more or less okay with tank stances being removed because, by the time they were, they didn't matter, and I associated them with a high button cost. If I had back then the perspective I have now, though... that's much less likely.

In either case, I don't want to see gap closers condemned to the same, especially in a way that makes that much identical atop having less room for skill expression. What's more, though, unlike tank stances, the solution to making gap-closers feel less stale a means of skill expression is a solution that'd help a hell of a lot more than just said gap-closers:

All we really need for gap-closers not to be rote-ly scheduled is the same basic variance that healing and defensive CDs would need in order not to feel dully scheduled ("learn once, repeat rotely forevermore"): Those mechanics, too, would just need some friggin' randomization -- a nigh-universal improvement regardless.

Could jsut do PVP if you really miss plunge and rough ivide that baly. I sitll think teh new gap closers feel more in line wiht teh job then the old ones. I been maining PLD then GNB in ShB and it felt weird that i had to fit my gap closer in my burst rotation so i get the most bang for my back. With Trajectory i have one less button to worry about "ok i need to fit this is in my no mercy burst window" and can now go "alright i can fit my Lionheart combo in my burst window and if i need 2 use trajectory to cancel a knock back and continue my damage"

Shadowstride doesn’t feel like it belongs on drk. The magic is all wrong; there’s either runes/sigils (blood weapon, tbn, dark missionary, dark mind, oblation, shadow wall, unmend, lb3) or manifesting angst (unleash, probably delirium, shadowbringer, flood of edge, DID and I suppose given who it was lifted from and - despite it also being obviously alien* - disesteem too).

Warping is also counter to the berserker theming it shares with warrior. Cowardly and not remotely intimidating. The very second quest has the player character tearing their way through a horde of corrupt knights sustained and egged on by Tyler from flight club. The helping the merchant with qiqirn issues quest has an emphasis on how blood has mysteriously coated everything (ie more brutal than what the merchant was expecting), the invulnerability is not a shirk taking damage ability it’s nearer zombification. Fading out of reality and reappearing at the boss does not work here thematically, especially when it replaced the user throwing themselves across the room sword first at their target.

*it seems to be drawing from twitter bird’s attack/aesthetic, which is a pretty weird choice since dynamis is explicitly said to be weak on hydaelyn and angst/rage is an opposite of despair/apathy.

Edit: obviously none of this really matters in of itself, it’s more that it contributes towards the directionless/structureless feeling jobs have now. It comes across as if the former clear vision for job identity is decaying either through someone leaving and the successor’s unfamiliarity or acquired indifference.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

Having to save your movement utility to deal damage during your burst window was just awful design. While the new animations might not look as cool, removing the potency allows your movement utility to just be movement utility which is a huge W. They should do the same for PLD and WAR.

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BTW this is why FF14 will forever be trash. This is modern FF14 player mentality. NO TRADEOFFS! WHATSOEVER!

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Originally Posted by bic12

BTW this is why FF14 will forever be trash. This is modern FF14 player mentality. NO TRADEOFFS! WHATSOEVER!

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I will tell you right now I am happy for the changes. Rough divide was a gap clsoer with damage you have to weave in your burst rotation to deal optimal damage. Same with PLunge, when they removed those that freed up a slot for alright i can use another ogcd and not worry about screwing up for example on GNB cartridges. You can continue savage claw combo or even place double down with another Ogcd instead of rough divide.

Yes, burst windows are important and the more you fit in them the better your group's collective damage. No, I don't believe for a second that plunge being under buffs is going to make more difference than improving uptime would for 99% of the playerbase. Doubtless you're already doing so, but moving a tbn proc into buffs will have more impact than the auto-tier damage on plunge.

Man .. I'mma go cry. Plunge was SO helpful, now all I get is Unmend :')

As a DRG main, I miss RoT (Ring of Thornes), SSD and DS. Additionally, I was pretty PO'd when they took the Nastrond charges back from 3 to 1 "OP" attack; You can't give me more and then expect me to take less!

/cry

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Originally Posted by Mercury_Grey

I will tell you right now I am happy for the changes. Rough divide was a gap clsoer with damage you have to weave in your burst rotation to deal optimal damage. Same with PLunge, when they removed those that freed up a slot for alright i can use another ogcd and not worry about screwing up for example on GNB cartridges. You can continue savage claw combo or even place double down with another Ogcd instead of rough divide.

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We wouldn't want to screw up our rotation

As someone who initially really liked the new gapcloser I gotta say.

Yeah, I be missing plunge.

And job identity was being stripped long before Plunge, though it's been a trip seeing that Plunge is the straw that broke the camel's back for many people

Give back dots and egi being able to attack and defend.

But yea I agree much job identity is being lost

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Originally Posted by Valence

We wouldn't want to screw up our rotation

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ahhh yes the rotation of press the shiny buttos, press OGCDs ad randomly slamming the greatsword like we telling the boss "I said no hory"

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Originally Posted by Mercury_Grey

ahhh yes the rotation of press the shiny buttos, press OGCDs ad randomly slamming the greatsword like we telling the boss "I said no hory"

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We wouldn't want to actually consolidate the depth of jobs

I actually removed both """"gap closers"""" from my DRK/DRG hotbars. they straight up feel like an insult to the old designs and a complete waste of resources imo. I'd rather pull with Unmend and minmax my Elusive Jumps

I was SERIOUSLY let down after I logged back into my SMN alt and noticed that 3/4 of my hotbars were greyed out. i REFUSE to update it, I'd rather the memories of ShB SMN live in my mind




If I close my eyes, I can still hear Dark Arts...

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Originally Posted by Zairava

And job identity was being stripped long before Plunge, though it's been a trip seeing that Plunge is the straw that broke the camel's back for many people

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It generally hasn't been "the [final] straw", though. This has just been the latest protest against vertebral damage, with compounding importance the fewer disks we have left. We saw similar responses with almost every featural/expressive removal prior.

I miss old DRG, I was a DRG main since I started in Fall 2015 but now I have been playing more as a DNC for DPS roles.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

I dimly remember them saying that they were going to replace Intervene and Onslaught too, just that DRK and GNB were first in line because they had the busiest full burst windows.

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Been a while but I needed to pick this back up again.
Because if that's the case they better replace those with new oGCDs on top of whatever movement tools they plan for the two jobs.

You may not agree with it but you can at least understand the reasoning behind moving the gap closers out of the burst windows of GnB and DrK, two jobs who already had stuffed burst.
But removing them from Warrior and Paladin, who already feel like barren GCD spam even during their burst, would be completely awful.
Granted Dark Knight also suffers from this issue outside of burst windows but the entire rework was a disaster in hindsight, it's mindless 1-2-3 filler spam for a majority of your gameplay.

So they're probably going to do it and replace them with nothing.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

You may not agree with it but you can at least understand the reasoning behind moving the gap closers out of the burst windows of GnB and DrK, two jobs who already had stuffed burst.

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I mean, the first is a reason to increase the potency of Shadowbringers by an Edge (on primary target) and Flood (on all other enemies) but give it a 3000-MP cost and massively increase Syphon Strike MP regen in compensation, shifting that 2 actions per 2 minute out of window while also replacing the 3 APM lost to the removal of Plunge and Blood Weapon outside of the burst window with additional Edge casts. Instead, rather than moving the APM, it simply deleted it.

Meanwhile, high burst APM is essentially the identity of Gunbreaker, and most "mobility issue" that could be "caused" by having damage attached to its gap-closer could be solved by having Rough Divide always act as if affected by No Mercy or by having No Mercy affect only weaponskills, with due potency adjustments in either case, reducing its banking incentive to just that of raid buffs (very small) rather than its far larger self-buff. (The same could be said perhaps for Intervene on PLD.)