Difficult experience in Forked Tower – a reminder to respect public content

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Originally Posted by 0blivion

The people out here demonizing premades seem to not understand that if there were no premades, there would be no runs at all. And even if people only organized in-instance, their entitled attitude towards other people's time would mean they wouldn't get a party, or never clear. You can switch instances. Can't find enough people in another one? Yeah, I figured. Maybe you should consider why that is. :)

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I see that as a positive. It would force SE to fix the problem.

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Originally Posted by itachi-otsutsuki

It is impossible to rally 48 people in a 72 casual player instance to do a savage raid. Hence there should just be a PF alliance queue in option like with DRS and Chaotic.
I am not saying the discords are entirely to blame for creating this environment , although many of them seem to revel in it. That's just a toxic player-ego issue.
But it has effectively lead to a monopolization because of the impracticality of organizing anything inside the game itself. It is just completely failed content.

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We 100% agree this is only possible to do via discord organisation in a practical sense

That doesn’t mean it’s the discords fault it’s like this nor are they the problem or some kind of boogeyman, they are doing the best with what they have because of squares awful design decisions. I think it’s rather pointless demonising the discords over this

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Like surely the fights are not "that" tight that a single or two goofballs of 48 can ruin *everything* that this was a necessity? What if they never were selected for those mechanics in the first place and they could just handle things based on intuition?

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To belatedly answer your question: the second fight in particular is that tight.

https://i.ibb.co/nq499TXr/nya.png

If anyone is too late on fireballs, they may, while getting there late, be the "closest" of their role, getting the cone. There is a high chance that they will cleave the entire other side of the area, immediately causing a wipe. DPS have also stood on healer side before, equally causing a crazy amount of casualties. And you know what? I agree that tankbustering them on purpose sucks, but I also can understand why you'd feel the urge lol.

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Originally Posted by Volgia

Back in my day when dinosaurs still roamed the earth we used Teamspeak and Ventrilo to do content, and content in old WoW and FF11 was 100 times rougher and clunkier than whatever Forked Towers throws at you now.

I don't know if I could call out SE on this one given how popular and liked the Baldesion Arsenal is, and how doing that on discords was okay for almost 10 years now, but suddenly out of nowhere Forked Tower is an outlier?

They are called antisocial because they refuse to interact with people to organize for content, and they are called leeches because that's what snipers on FT do, they wanna get carried through the content.

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See this is the problem. You actually BELIEVE this archaic design is 'acceptable' cause you're one of them discord elitists and if people aren't part of your clique they're 'anti social dumb casuals'.

People organizing in game like they're suppose to is 'antisocial' to you.

I like how you're calling it a clique when the biggest one on EU has like 10k members.

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Originally Posted by 0blivion

I like how you're calling it a clique when the biggest one on EU has like 10k members.

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I think you're being deliberately obtuse. What word to describe a small group of people controlling access to game content would be satisfactory to you then?

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Originally Posted by Volgia

I don't know if I could call out SE on this one given how popular and liked the Baldesion Arsenal is, and how doing that on discords was okay for almost 10 years now, but suddenly out of nowhere Forked Tower is an outlier?

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The answer, in my opinion, is very straightforward.

The first time was a mistake.
The second time was intentional.

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Originally Posted by Naoki_Yoshida

- Reflecting on the Baldesion Arsenal (Nakagawa)
Having said that, due to the abovementioned issues and other things we’ve learned through your feedback, we’ve caused our players a great deal of stress, and this is something we deeply regret. We’ve been made to realize there are many things we can change and improve upon. We’re determined to correct all the major issues and take the experience with us when we develop future content.

...

In the future, should more issues like this arise, I promise to take your feedback to heart, communicate openly with you all, and quickly take the necessary measures to improve things. Thank you for your continued support.

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This is what is colloquially known as "lying".

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Originally Posted by Volgia

Back in my day when dinosaurs still roamed the earth we used Teamspeak and Ventrilo to do content, and content in old WoW and FF11 was 100 times rougher and clunkier than whatever Forked Towers throws at you now.

I don't know if I could call out SE on this one given how popular and liked the Baldesion Arsenal is, and how doing that on discords was okay for almost 10 years now, but suddenly out of nowhere Forked Tower is an outlier?

They are called antisocial because they refuse to interact with people to organize for content, and they are called leeches because that's what snipers on FT do, they wanna get carried through the content.

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Teamspeak existed back then yes but it was just that, teamspeak (we only used ingame chat tbh) and the number of players using it was quite low.
No raid plans like today, no pings with passwords or such things.

BA was “accepted” because it was old content and at the very end of the field zone but even back then it came into being because the system was bad.
The forked tower is at the very start and that after CLL, DR and Dalriada which were thought of as “SE has learned the lessons of BA” so of course it will be hated.
Also many players are new and only know BA years after it was optimized but now find themselves struggling with it despite being new content.

But as long as you also continue to throw insults at one part of the playerbase I see no reason to continue interacting here.
People can and are social outside Discord.

Do whatever you all want at this point, both sides are just hating each other now anyway.

I said what I wanted ti say here.

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Originally Posted by itachi-otsutsuki

See this is the problem. You actually BELIEVE this archaic design is 'acceptable' cause you're one of them discord elitists and if people aren't part of your clique they're 'anti social dumb casuals'.

People organizing in game like they're suppose to is 'antisocial' to you.

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I mean the "archaic" design is exactly what they were going for, and it hasn't stopped players from clearing the content they presented. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's failed content.

You can organize it in-game through text, but most people with a crumble of common sense would ask why don't we just do this through voice? Cuz it's easier to call out on voice than to have to write stuff mid-mechanics.

I'm not sure why you're so scared of discord anyways, you can outright mute yourself and follow instructions and get through FT just fine.

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Originally Posted by Volgia

I don't know if I could call out SE on this one given how popular and liked the Baldesion Arsenal is, and how doing that on discords was okay for almost 10 years now, but suddenly out of nowhere Forked Tower is an outlier?

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Most people hate the fact that they have to submit to a clique gatekeeping this content, but they do it anyway or they will never get the mount or the achievements. If they don't submit to the clique they will get griefed. Just because that's how it's been doesn't mean people are happy with it. This issue with Forked Tower is just bringing the long-running undercurrent of discontent to a head.

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Originally Posted by Volgia

I mean the "archaic" design is exactly what they were going for, and it hasn't stopped players from clearing the content they presented. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's failed content.

You can organize it in-game through text, but most people with a crumble of common sense would ask why don't we just do this through voice? Cuz it's easier to call out on voice than to have to write stuff mid-mechanics.

I'm not sure why you're so scared of discord anyways, you can outright mute yourself and follow instructions and get through FT just fine.

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I on the other hand am quite sure why the person you responded to has a difficult time with discord.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

We 100% agree this is only possible to do via discord organisation in a practical sense

That doesn’t mean it’s the discords fault it’s like this nor are they the problem or some kind of boogeyman, they are doing the best with what they have because of squares awful design decisions. I think it’s rather pointless demonising the discords over this

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Overall you are probably right, the root cause is SE for some incomprehensible reason choosing a janky 10 year old eureka entry method for a savage alliance raid.

I just despise the toxicity this is breeding towards casuals-randoms who are referred to as snipers. And that is a choice in part by the people who run these discord groups. It is an entirely expected outcome, but I still don't approve of their behavior.

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Originally Posted by Volgia

I mean the "archaic" design is exactly what they were going for, and it hasn't stopped players from clearing the content they presented. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's failed content.

You can organize it in-game through text, but most people with a crumble of common sense would ask why don't we just do this through voice? Cuz it's easier to call out on voice than to have to write stuff mid-mechanics.

I'm not sure why you're so scared of discord anyways, you can outright mute yourself and follow instructions and get through FT just fine.

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Who says I am scared? I tried to enter via discord, I just absolutely hate the hoops you have to jump through to get in a run, even WITH discord. The content is failed period. 99% of people will give up just trying to get any consistent prog going.

Nah, the discord mods are typically toxically positive and insist group leaders carry snipers through, and the community kinda has to filter them out quietly as a result.

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Originally Posted by OdinelStarrei

The answer, in my opinion, is very straightforward.

The first time was a mistake.
The second time was intentional.



This is what is colloquially known as "lying".

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lol, thank you for finding that snippet. They really thought they were cooking with this new zone.

I’ll remind people pointing to BA as an example of “see it’s fine BA works like this”. BA “works” because it’s been nerfed 6 ways from Sunday since it launched

When it was current we were melding imperial jade accessories and running healers in Templar and defensive magia. Now 70% of damage can come from 5 people doing DE and everyone has an osode and our main stat is maxed when we used to have to meld it

AND even launch BA wasn’t as hard as forked because Art and owain or Raiden don’t enrage and the only personal responsibility mechanic in the entire raid is on ozma

No matter which side of the argument you stand on modern BA mostly “working” isn’t an argument for or against forked

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Originally Posted by itachi-otsutsuki

Overall you are probably right, the root cause is SE for some incomprehensible reason choosing a janky 10 year old eureka entry method for a savage alliance raid.

I just despise the toxicity this is breeding towards casuals-randoms who are referred to as snipers. And that is a choice in part by the people who run these discord groups. It is an entirely expected outcome, but I still don't approve of their behavior.

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The toxicity is a two way street.

What would you rather be called?

A "sniper" in a video game?
Or a manipulative, selfish, sociopath?

One of those is worse than the other.

And at the neverending tug of war, who is watching, and not saying a single word?

Square Enix, and the development staff.

Perchance, have you seen that JP post where someone did get in to a fairly large instance, sprinted forward and pulled the boss, and then yanked all 40+ people in a boss room with no waymarkers, no discussion, no planning, intentionally so that all those people who used ciphers, nevermind spent their evenings preparing to go in, had their raid destroyed?

That's pretty bad.

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Originally Posted by OdinelStarrei

Perchance, have you seen that JP post where someone did get in to a fairly large instance, sprinted forward and pulled the boss, and then yanked all 40+ people in a boss room with no waymarkers, no discussion, no planning, intentionally so that all those people who used ciphers, nevermind spent their evenings preparing to go in, had their raid destroyed?

That's pretty bad.

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There'll be more of this. This deafening silence from SE on this royal eff up will see more frustrated players acting out.

Not defending the behavior, just noting how frustrated people can behave.

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Originally Posted by OdinelStarrei

The answer, in my opinion, is very straightforward.

The first time was a mistake.
The second time was intentional.



This is what is colloquially known as "lying".

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Maybe he regretted it then, but BA has been popular for a long time, so maybe it was a happy mistake, cuz I agree this was intentional, and I don't think it's a bad thing.

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Originally Posted by Voidmage

Teamspeak existed back then yes but it was just that, teamspeak (we only used ingame chat tbh) and the number of players using it was quite low.
No raid plans like today, no pings with passwords or such things.

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CLL, Dalriada and all of that went dead for a while. Whereas BA still has a community around it doing content even 8 years after it came out. Also, that was not my experience, every single hard-type content raid I got asked to join a Ventrilo (which I think you needed to connect in a F2P with passwords and ips) or Teamspeak. Organizing it through text was a nightmare.

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Originally Posted by Anonemoose

Most people hate the fact that they have to submit to a clique gatekeeping this content, but they do it anyway or they will never get the mount or the achievements. If they don't submit to the clique they will get griefed. Just because that's how it's been doesn't mean people are happy with it. This issue with Forked Tower is just bringing the long-running undercurrent of discontent to a head.

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I think people don't know what they want. They want to get through the content but if it were too easy it'd be dead within a few weeks or months (I had instances at the end of ShB where getting into Dalriada was simply impossible where as I had no issues grabbing a group for BA on EW's drought), so what you think is bad or inconvenient might turn out not to be so.

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Originally Posted by 0blivion

Nah, the discord mods are typically toxically positive and insist group leaders carry snipers through, and the community kinda has to filter them out quietly as a result.

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Sounds like a really healthy community all round. Do y'all cackle on vc as you leave "snipers" dead on the floor? Maybe make some videos, it'd be prime YT content.

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Originally Posted by itachi-otsutsuki

Who says I am scared? I tried to enter via discord, I just absolutely hate the hoops you have to jump through to get in a run, even WITH discord. The content is failed period. 99% of people will give up just trying to get any consistent prog going.

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I mean the way you call me Discord Elitist makes me think you're scared of engaging with people through voice. Like Discord's a standard for playing games online, you can go into OverwatchMarvel Rivals ranked with a group and you will 99% of the time use Discord.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

I on the other hand am quite sure why the person you responded to has a difficult time with discord.

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I wanted to give him some grace but it's starting to look like that for me as well lmao.

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Originally Posted by Volgia

I mean the way you call me Discord Elitist makes me think you're scared of engaging with people through voice. Like Discord's a standard for playing games online, you can go into OverwatchMarvel Rivals ranked with a group and you will 99% of the time use Discord.

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You understand this applies to a significant minority of the player base?

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Originally Posted by Volgia

I think people don't know what they want. They want to get through the content but if it were too easy it'd be dead within a few weeks or months (I had instances at the end of ShB where getting into Dalriada was simply impossible where as I had no issues grabbing a group for BA on EW's drought), so what you think is bad or inconvenient might turn out not to be so.

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The difficulty of content is irrelevant. That's a totally separate issue independent of a clique self-inserting themselves as the gatekeepers of a piece of content, which is made possible due to CBU3's poor implementation. It's objectively bad for the game and it's objectively inconvenient for everyone involved.

So I say it again. Discord cliques and their consequences have been a disaster for the human race. Just say no. These cliques cannot exist without your submission.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

You understand this applies to a significant minority of the player base?

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I'm not sure where you're going with this.

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Originally Posted by Anonemoose

The difficulty of content is irrelevant. That's a totally separate issue independent of a clique self-inserting themselves as the gatekeepers of a piece of content, which is made possible due to CBU3's poor implementation. It's objectively bad for the game and it's objectively inconvenient for everyone involved.

So I say it again. Discord cliques and their consequences have been a disaster for the human race. Just say no. These cliques cannot exist without your submission.

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Well, you look like you live for the drama.

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Originally Posted by Volgia

I mean the way you call me Discord Elitist makes me think you're scared of engaging with people through voice. Like Discord's a standard for playing games online, you can go into OverwatchMarvel Rivals ranked with a group and you will 99% of the time use Discord.



I wanted to give him some grace but it's starting to look like that for me as well lmao.

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You are a discord elitist. I just explained the why. And you insist on making up some sort of personal attack about me being 'big scared to enter voice chat'. The voice chat isn't even the crux of why discord is such a barrier for people, and even if it is, you can even do ultimates without voice chat. SE doesn't design content to require voice chat so people shouldn't be forced to use it by discord gatekeepers and elitists like you.

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Originally Posted by Volgia

I'm not sure where you're going with this.

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Few extroverts have the ability to view the world through an introvert lens.

These discords exist to help YOU. That is their intention and their teams work hard to help players with the subject matter of the discord server, even providing guides and tutorials.

It's not a clique and their teams are the nicest people ever just helping the community get things done, and most people are appreciative enough to say thanks given the opportunity.

If anyone thinks otherwise, my guess is that they misjudged them, misinterpreted them, jumped to conclusions about them, or did something really bad and got banned for it, then came to vent all over the forums and reddit.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

These discords exist to help YOU. That is their intention and their teams work hard to help players with the subject matter of the discord server, even providing guides and tutorials.

It's not a clique and their teams are the nicest people ever just helping the community get things done, and most people are appreciative enough to say thanks given the opportunity.

If anyone thinks otherwise, my guess is that they misjudged them, misinterpreted them, jumped to conclusions about them, or did something really bad and got banned for it, then came to vent all over the forums and reddit.

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Gaslight, gatekeep, girlboss.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Few extroverts have the ability to view the world through an introvert lens.

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I think you are confusing narcissist with extrovert

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

These discords exist to help YOU. That is their intention and their teams work hard to help players with the subject matter of the discord server, even providing guides and tutorials.

It's not a clique and their teams are the nicest people ever just helping the community get things done, and most people are appreciative enough to say thanks given the opportunity.

If anyone thinks otherwise, my guess is that they misjudged them, misinterpreted them, jumped to conclusions about them, or did something really bad and got banned for it, then came to vent all over the forums and reddit.

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Here we go with Dr. Pangloss again.

Discords reflect the owners/mods running them. The owners/mods are drawn from the parent population known as "humanity."

It follows some Discords will be driven by hard-working philanthropists, whereas other will be the domain of total AHs.

I've experienced both.

If it's possible to snipe then it's designed with the intention to be pugged, "snipers" are acting within their right to pug content as designed. But if it is too difficult to feasibly pug then it de facto requires organization, so the discord groups are also acting within their right to enter as a group and ignore any puggers that manage to get in with them. Neither side is in the wrong here, yall need to stop screaming at each other and start screaming at CBU3.

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Originally Posted by itachi-otsutsuki

You are a discord elitist. I just explained the why. And you insist on making up some sort of personal attack about me being 'big scared to enter voice chat'. The voice chat isn't even the crux of why discord is such a barrier for people, and even if it is, you can even do ultimates without voice chat. SE doesn't design content to require voice chat so people shouldn't be forced to use it by discord gatekeepers and elitists like you.

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I want to touch on the voice chat topic (Not the rest directly, this is a bit too inflammatory for me)

Ultimate, at the time of the content introduction, was thought to be unpuggable. Something like UCOB is mainly an execution check, and the ease of entry (direct queue) meant that you did have people get reasonably far in the opening days. Once strategies started to become more normalized, it became feasible, but that came through years of community effort through guides, toolboxes, videos, and simulators. Shoutout to clees.

The reason why I fundamentally disagree with you saying that "ultimates are designed without voice chat" are because of the puzzle ultimates. Those are not execution checks, they are obscure, esoteric knowledge checks that you have to develop a plan for, with a consistent team over the course of days if you're doing it entirely blind, and even then, a conversation/live demonstration through screen share/collective studying is invaluable. You need to have a real dialogue to begin understanding the awakening system from UWU, the Enigma Codex from TEA, how to even access P5 in DSR, ANYTHING regarding Dynamis in TOP, etc etc. I don't think most people consider when Square Enix designs a puzzle in the encounter, it has to be at least implied to be discussed over voice over the course of hours/days, because that is also how it's tested, with a group of people talking during production and testing. Even UWU was designed from the ground up to be enjoyed with a live-audience where discussion out of the game was prominent. Just because a team of guide designers or crack raidplan composers made an easy step by step guide to pug an ultimate, doesn't mean that the content was originally planned out that way. The first pug clear of UCOB was a big deal! It was a community milestone even, it took months, but those people had resources to rely on.

Forked Tower is markedly different, as the content itself is fighting the players. The content does not want to be entered, and progressed, and completed in a manner that makes sense to it's participants. It's deliberately hostile, and that's the core difference. Anyone can enter a legacy ultimate. Entering FT in a way that makes a clear even possible is like, harder than the entire raid, which still, at the population required for clearing and the gear we have at this moment, isn't a walk in the park either.

It is literally against the target objective to be as hostile as you are painting it. Clearing content at the end of the day is the goal. I hate Discord, as an introvert, but I recognize it as a tool to be used. Nothing more.

The developers have actively shown either their incompetence or maliciousness. This is plain to see by anyone. That's who the ire should be pointed to, anything else is a waste of time, or designed to aggravate someone.

I wouldn't have Ozma, or Cerberus without those people in the Discords, the world prog for BA was the best experience I ever had in the game, despite it's massive problems. Some of those people are still my friends to this day. One of them bought me a sub so I would come back to Exploration, as I was really in love with Eureka. I don't really like seeing all these people hate on them for coming up with a solution for a problem Square Enix created. Yes, that makes me biased, but, isn't this a bit much guys?

It's awful.

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Originally Posted by OdinelStarrei

[snip]

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A studio that designs content that explicitly requires voice in a game that does not include such a feature is grossly incompetent.

An alternative reading is that the devs do not actually do this at all, and that the use of vc is a convention imposed by a subset of the players.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Few extroverts have the ability to view the world through an introvert lens.

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If I were an extrovert I would probably not be posting on these forums, lol.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

A studio that designs content that explicitly requires voice in a game that does not include such a feature is grossly incompetent.

An alternative reading is that the devs do not actually do this at all, and that the use of vc is a convention imposed by a subset of the players.

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Yes.
I've been saying this since Shadowbringers ended. I have a long treatise somewhere on the expansion of high-end fight complexity at the expense of individual responsibility being a problem, but that's not for this topic.

That makes way more sense than "the content designers and content testers do not talk to each other at all when testing content for release, if they are even different people in the first place."

People talk when they play video games together. The game requires strategy, and some things can only be accomplished by a team that is on the same page. It's easier to get to that point when you can speak your thoughts than type them, if you are not already following the same script/raidplan.

oop, here some of it is

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Originally Posted by OdinelStarrei;

But I will highlight that it's not "too many" people failing a mechanic leading to a wipe. It's one person doing something major, or sometimes minor incorrectly, and the result is the entire party exploding instantly. It's okay to have those things in fights. But when it's every fight, I feel that it starts breaking the trinity somewhat, outside of the more common issues detailed in this thread, because you didn't wipe because "the tank didn't get aggro" or "the dps check was failed" or "the healers were out of MP", you failed because Player 5 was out of position on mechanic sequence 4, or Player 2 didn't read their partner's debuff correctly and did 999999 damage to the group.

I feel that it promotes really frustrating and darwinistic perspectives for progressing through content.

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When you then take that mentality and then you scale it up from 8 players to 48, and add in thrice come ruin, three death limits, and the most convoluted and tedious entry method the game has ever seen, it is no surprise that it's become...untenable, putting it lightly.

I'm divided on this.
On one hand, you did steal their pre-planned spot for that raid, leaving behind 2 people who were in that plan.
On the other, Square designed it this way, this you got in there "legitimately". Purposely trying to kill you and refusing you raise you is disruption of your play. You can report them tbh but that's a dick move considering first point.

All boils down to Square's SHIT design of this fight. TBH who asked for this?
Utter garbage.

I am an avid white knight of Square and 14 but Forked Tower and most of their recent updates are not defendable at all.

I root for Square and 14 to succeed as I am in love with this game but they have to be better. Always the goddamn shitty fights that are nearly impossible for the average player. No wonder most of my friends stopped playing already. It's so frustrating.

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Originally Posted by tsuchii

I'm divided on this.
On one hand, you did steal their pre-planned spot for that raid, leaving behind 2 people who were in that plan.
On the other, Square designed it this way, this you got in there "legitimately". Purposely trying to kill you and refusing you raise you is disruption of your play. You can report them tbh but that's a dick move considering first point.

All boils down to Square's SHIT design of this fight. TBH who asked for this?
Utter garbage.

I am an avid white knight of Square and 14 but Forked Tower and most of their recent updates are not defendable at all.

I root for Square and 14 to succeed as I am in love with this game but they have to be better. Always the goddamn shitty fights that are nearly impossible for the average player. No wonder most of my friends stopped playing already. It's so frustrating.

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Tbf, you're part of the problem. People need to stop white knighting for them, otherwise they'll think what they're doing is great.

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Originally Posted by 0blivion

To belatedly answer your question: the second fight in particular is that tight.

https://i.ibb.co/nq499TXr/nya.png

If anyone is too late on fireballs, they may, while getting there late, be the "closest" of their role, getting the cone. There is a high chance that they will cleave the entire other side of the area, immediately causing a wipe. DPS have also stood on healer side before, equally causing a crazy amount of casualties. And you know what? I agree that tankbustering them on purpose sucks, but I also can understand why you'd feel the urge lol.

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Just seeing this makes my brain bleed. Like...if I have to memorize this shit to do a fight - no thanks.

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Originally Posted by OdinelStarrei

I wouldn't have Ozma, or Cerberus without those people in the Discords, the world prog for BA was the best experience I ever had in the game, despite it's massive problems. Some of those people are still my friends to this day. One of them bought me a sub so I would come back to Exploration, as I was really in love with Eureka. I don't really like seeing all these people hate on them for coming up with a solution for a problem Square Enix created. Yes, that makes me biased, but, isn't this a bit much guys?

It's awful.

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To me it's weird because while I agree that Square created a problem where some toxicity might arise, it's also that clunky weird way of designing this content that built a community around Eureka and BA, and it's where I met a lot of people I am currently friends with. It's why I say it was probably intentional, and why I can't decide if it's terrible design, despite people calling me a discord elitist narcissist and being hostile towards me.

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Originally Posted by PaulusHamsteru

Tbf, you're part of the problem. People need to stop white knighting for them, otherwise they'll think what they're doing is great.

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They think what they're doing is great regardless. See: their response to the negative Island Sanctuary feedback.