Occult Relic grind needs to change.

After Endwalker relic, I feel like I have something to do when I log in now.

Normally I've been doing the following.
Login 4-6 days a week.
Do a few Duty roulettes, nothing happening in FC log off.
After I get my 1st set of gear in the patch cycle.

Login 1-2 times a week do random roulette or help FC.

Now with this content,
Login knowning I need to spend time to get content done.
I don't mind that and it's very laid back so I can muiltitask.

"Relics grinds are too hard! Make them easier!"

"Ok, now they're easier."

"Relic grinds are too easy! Make them harder!"

"Ok, now they're harder."

"Relics grinds are too hard! Make them easier!"

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Tpzq-k9hv9M/maxresdefault.jpg

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Originally Posted by StarRosie

It's mostly that they can't understand that people DO want to do the grind...but they also want their time RESPECTED! The current grind is a one off grind, and yes it is similar to the atma grind of ARR's relic. That doesn't excuse the fact it is incredibly disrespectful of people's time. Nor does it make it a good grind.

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Exactly, but people would rather push their hyperbole than understand what the real issue is. I did Fate and CE grinding for 9 hours yesterday and did not receive a single Demiatma. Not one.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

I don’t think the issue is that there is a grind, from what I can gather it seems like the issue is type of grind or how that grind is actually designed. I think most people would prefer a a very slow but guaranteed progress grind, over a grind that is a grind by virtue of random chance - even if they ultimately take the same length of time to reach the end destination

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Case in point, four hours inside OC and I had six atmas while a friend of mine put in more than double that time and had 1. Yes, RNG can be fickle, but that stark a difference will always upset people since it feels like their time is being wasted.

As for people insisting "this is what y'all wanted!!!!!!" First and foremost, neither the forums nor reddit is one singular hivemind. People who liked the tome step aren't going to be posting here because... well, why would they? They liked the system, thus have nothing to say. People don't typically come to forums or reddit to say how great something else.

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Originally Posted by Memento

This is where we are as a community? Complaining that we have to pay attention? Good lord....

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Complaining that I have to pay attention for hours of mind-numbing fate grinding? Yeah.

I get bored doing the same fights over and over and over and over for hours. But I can't just watch youtube or something on the side because I need to focus on the fights I'm having to do. There's nothing I can do to make the experience more tolerable because if I try to listen to an audiobook or something, I won't be able to absorb anything of what I'm listening to because the fights demand you pay attention and do the mechanics properly.

This is where we are as a community? Misrepresenting people's arguments so we can feel smugly superior and assume other people are stupid and lazy? Good lord....

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Case in point, four hours inside OC and I had six atmas while a friend of mine put in more than double that time and had 1. Yes, RNG can be fickle, but that stark a difference will always upset people since it feels like their time is being wasted.

As for people insisting "this is what y'all wanted!!!!!!" First and foremost, neither the forums nor reddit is one singular hivemind. People who liked the tome step aren't going to be posting here because... well, why would they? They liked the system, thus have nothing to say. People don't typically come to forums or reddit to say how great something else.

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After day 2 of grinding this event, I currently have 3 of the items I need. My friend who has been there with me from the start and has done every single fight in a party with me has ZERO. He has had to go check repeatedly to make sure he's on the quest, and we're on the same step together. It's just not giving him anything.

This is why RNG grinds are awful.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Case in point, four hours inside OC and I had six atmas while a friend of mine put in more than double that time and had 1. Yes, RNG can be fickle, but that stark a difference will always upset people since it feels like their time is being wasted.

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The entire point of an in-game "grind" is to "waste" time.

If anyone wanted to feel otherwise, they'd close the game and spend their time trying to alleviate any number of issues plaguing the not-in-game world.

after 2 days (about 20-22 hours) all grinding Fate in this new location I still can't complete the first relic I still don't have a single Orpiment Demiatma and Malachite Demiatma...

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Originally Posted by CidHeiral

"Relics grinds are too hard! Make them easier!"

"Ok, now they're easier."

"Relic grinds are too easy! Make them harder!"

"Ok, now they're harder."

"Relics grinds are too hard! Make them easier!"

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Huh, it's almost like the only two options they know are "Free" and "Screw you grind for 40 hours"

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Originally Posted by CidHeiral

"Relics grinds are too hard! Make them easier!"

"Ok, now they're easier."

"Relic grinds are too easy! Make them harder!"

"Ok, now they're harder."

"Relics grinds are too hard! Make them easier!"

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The Limsa crowd will always cry if they have to do anything remotely time consuming that takes them away from their AFK spot for too long, or having to do anything remotely challenging that wont let them show off their "earned" glam before the end of the day.

The only thing that needs to change is they need to remove the option to progress in occult crescent without actually being in occult crescent.

And maybe bump up the event spawn rate for the southwest corner.

The moment I noticed they’re bringing a sliver of RNG grind that is pseudo-atma grinds, I know exactly that I’ll be disappointed if I solely focus on that, so I take a moment to reevaluate my approach. In the end I came up with the following goals:
- I want to max all phantom jobs.
- I want to pick up all the Arcanaut’s gears, at least the base gears.
- Upgrading the gears, probably!

Relics? Maybe I’ll get it in 5 days. Maybe I’ll get it in a month or two. But I don’t think that matters to me. I will be spending a long time to get those two or three goals foremost. I have a wide window of time to ‘try my luck’ to blast through the RNG grind, and thankfully they’re only one-time completion! Beyond that, it’s 1,500 tomes per weapons.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

The moment I noticed they’re bringing a sliver of RNG grind that is pseudo-atma grinds, I know exactly that I’ll be disappointed if I solely focus on that, so I take a moment to reevaluate my approach. In the end I came up with the following goals:
- I want to max all phantom jobs.
- I want to pick up all the Arcanaut’s gears, at least the base gears.
- Upgrading the gears, probably!

Relics? Maybe I’ll get it in 5 days. Maybe I’ll get it in a month or two. But I don’t think that matters to me. I will be spending a long time to get those two or three goals foremost. I have a wide window of time to ‘try my luck’ to blast through the RNG grind, and thankfully they’re only one-time completion! Beyond that, it’s 1,500 tomes per weapons.

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This is also where I am at but to me those were always the goal, I am still missing 3 Phantom Jobs(Ranger, Geomancer, and Thief), and I only leveled 2 to max, so I feel I have a long, long way to go on that front alone, surely I will get everything I need by the time I am done.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

Huh, it's almost like the only two options they know are "Free" and "Screw you grind for 40 hours"

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ShB relic wasn’t as grindy as ARR/HW or free like EW.

Never understand what’s in the mind of SE they seem swinging from one extreme to another

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Originally Posted by Misutoraru

ShB relic wasn’t as grindy as ARR/HW or free like EW.

Never understand what’s in the mind of SE they seem swinging from one extreme to another

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Honestly. If nothing this already confirms they are lacking vision and direction for the future. All they need to do is say something like: "Oh it was a big bad pulling the strings that made all these nations go to war and devour their neighbours. Not just greed / self preservation." Dawntrail softing and ruining lore from before, and we got a wonderful 5/10 finished product.

OC is very mid at best. Not offensively so, but its far from exciting. Doesnt help that they took SO LONG to release where a lot of the playerbase is mentally checked out already

It might actually be tolerable if they'd hotfixed fate HP, but that's a blood from stone thing with SE.

With it being a one time grind (if the rumors are true) I think it's perfect. It's the best of both worlds. People that wanted the grindy bit still got the grindy bit that they need to work towards, and then it becomes a tome sync, so it's a good middle ground!

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Originally Posted by Zakon

Does it make sense now?

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I mean, frankly, no. But more in a "that's not how I work" kind of way.

I don't measure how valuable my free time is by how much I've achieved or progressed by the end. I value it by how much fun I've had.

I could play an RPG and gain 10 levels, or I could play some random casual multiplayer game and make no notable progress, but if I enjoyed the latter more, I value that time more.

My free time is for doing what I want to do, and what I want to do is have fun, not necessarily make number go up. I do enough of that at work.
Speaking of.

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Originally Posted by Shialan

I only read the comments from you on this page, but holy do they scream "no work".

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Then I would kindly suggest you get your hearing checked, because the screaming is not coming from me. I work a contracted 0900-17:30, 5 days a week, and every other week am on call 24/7.

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

The entire point of an in-game "grind" is to "waste" time.

If anyone wanted to feel otherwise, they'd close the game and spend their time trying to alleviate any number of issues plaguing the not-in-game world.

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There is a stark difference between willing "wasting time" while engaging with something fun and spending hours grinding for something someone else got in half the time because RNG said "sucks to be you"

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Originally Posted by Iyrnthota

I mean, frankly, no. But more in a "that's not how I work" kind of way.

I don't measure how valuable my free time is by how much I've achieved or progressed by the end. I value it by how much fun I've had.

I could play an RPG and gain 10 levels, or I could play some random casual multiplayer game and make no notable progress, but if I enjoyed the latter more, I value that time more.

My free time is for doing what I want to do, and what I want to do is have fun, not necessarily make number go up. I do enough of that at work.
Speaking of.

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You really don't understand that when given the option between two activities, both of which you find enjoyable, you would prefer to pick the one that is actually rewarding you for the time you spent on it?

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Originally Posted by Hallarem

Honestly. If nothing this already confirms they are lacking vision and direction for the future. All they need to do is say something like: "Oh it was a big bad pulling the strings that made all these nations go to war and devour their neighbours. Not just greed / self preservation." Dawntrail softing and ruining lore from before, and we got a wonderful 5/10 finished product.

OC is very mid at best. Not offensively so, but its far from exciting. Doesnt help that they took SO LONG to release where a lot of the playerbase is mentally checked out already

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This is honestly one of my biggest problems with the current expansion schedule... By the time it actually releases I am beyond caring for it, and have absolutely no motivation to get on it whatsoever.

3 days of 'grinding' with my friend, I only got 1 demiatma. My friend is super lucky and has already finished her relic. This is just like a gacha game without any guaranteed pull.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

This is honestly one of my biggest problems with the current expansion schedule... By the time it actually releases I am beyond caring for it, and have absolutely no motivation to get on it whatsoever.

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This is precisely where I'm at. While I already was ambivalent towards XIV before Dawntrail came out, Occult Crescent was one of the things I had been looking forward to. It taking nearly a year to finally release despite them constantly trying to hype it up pretty much killed any real motivation I had. I'm still doing it, but the engagement just isn't there. It's hard to stay excited or even interested in content that's a year away. Especially when there was so little else to sink my teeth into outside of high end raids.

Whats your take on the books from ARR Zodiac relics? They were pretty tedious to do, but it felt rewarding when finishing each book. They had multiple missions and were not tied to one specific content.
Would you like to see a return of this type of quest?

https://i.imgur.com/PGIk64W.png

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

Exactly, but people would rather push their hyperbole than understand what the real issue is. I did Fate and CE grinding for 9 hours yesterday and did not receive a single Demiatma. Not one.

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I was in OC yesterday for about 2 hours. I would say I was severely under levelled compared to most others in the groups for CEs. I only got one demiatma (yellow) for all the fates and CEs I did. I was hoping for a bit better drop rate in OC. I have not done a bunch or DT fates for reference. I have 21 relics to do. Yes I am a glutton for punishment but at least throw us a bone in terms of drops.

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Originally Posted by xbahax92

Whats your take on the books from ARR Zodiac relics? They were pretty tedious to do, but it felt rewarding when finishing each book. They had multiple missions and were not tied to one specific content.
Would you like to see a return of this type of quest?

https://i.imgur.com/PGIk64W.png

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It's a cool concept but it was implemented really poorly. I like the idea of using a relic to develop it but I don't want the randomness.

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Originally Posted by Allyissa

I was in OC yesterday for about 2 hours. I would say I was severely under levelled compared to most others in the groups for CEs. I only got one demiatma (yellow) for all the fates and CEs I did. I was hoping for a bit better drop rate in OC. I have not done a bunch or DT fates for reference. I have 21 relics to do. Yes I am a glutton for punishment but at least throw us a bone in terms of drops.

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The atma step for every weapon after the first is just 1500 tomestones instead.

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Originally Posted by xbahax92

Whats your take on the books from ARR Zodiac relics? They were pretty tedious to do, but it felt rewarding when finishing each book. They had multiple missions and were not tied to one specific content.
Would you like to see a return of this type of quest?

https://i.imgur.com/PGIk64W.png

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I've been saying for years this is something that should be revisited, albeit done much better. While Wondrous Tales is a bit too easy, that version is closer to what could be an ideal "book" phase: randomly chosen objectives you need to do to progress your relic.

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Originally Posted by CidHeiral

"Relics grinds are too hard! Make them easier!"

"Ok, now they're easier."

"Relic grinds are too easy! Make them harder!"

"Ok, now they're harder."

"Relics grinds are too hard! Make them easier!"

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Tpzq-k9hv9M/maxresdefault.jpg

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SO.MUCH.THIS.

it doesn't matter what Squeenix does, there will always be people complaining that the relic is not the one exact grind they had in their heads so the devs should go ahead with whatever they feel like, they can never win anyway

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Originally Posted by Daralii

The atma step for every weapon after the first is just 1500 tomestones instead.

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If the drops themselves are going to be miserable, it will still be kind of painful. Also if you look at it this way, I will still have to grind out 30k tomestones. At least that I can do through general gameplay. I will still have to decide whether to buy the crafting materials off the market board or farm the tomestones like crazy. I wish they would have said something or did I miss that bit of information?

So after a few days of farming it, my take is that the drop rate is completely fine, but I am finding issue with how the CEs are sorted, let me explain, and for that look at this map:

https://i.imgur.com/Tb3pui9.png

The way Demiatmas work is that they drop per zone, the Shark Attack Critical Engagement can only ever drop a Realgar Demiatma, and because of the way CEs are sorted, this makes Verdigris remarkably rarer than all other options, because not only it is covered by a single CE, the one CE that drops it is the rarest of them all, and actively requires players to spawn the thing by killing Inkstains, which a lot of players may not even realize they need to do.

Perhaps the best way to solve this would've been to add an additional CE to the map, perhaps at the top of the spire to the left of the Calamity Bound, but as it is, Verdigris will be a lot of player's bottleneck.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

This is honestly one of my biggest problems with the current expansion schedule... By the time it actually releases I am beyond caring for it, and have absolutely no motivation to get on it whatsoever.

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I hate how the Beast tribe is released together, as now my mind is set on the Relic grind and i already forgot doing the tribe one day >_>

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Originally Posted by SoleilAlphi

SO.MUCH.THIS.

it doesn't matter what Squeenix does, there will always be people complaining that the relic is not the one exact grind they had in their heads so the devs should go ahead with whatever they feel like, they can never win anyway

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This is always and will always be such a silly argument. The playerbase is not one collective hivemind. People who liked the previous relic step aren't going to post on the forums praising how much they like it, but many certainly will complain if they don't like the current change because, well... they liked the previous system. Likewise, people frustrated with EW's tome relics are much quieter now because they prefer having a grind.

What's especially funny is how that response you quoted blatantly ignores the discussion in this thread where almost every player criticism the atma step isn't doing so because they hate grinding, but rather dislike the RNG aspect of it. In other words, they didn't bother reading and just tried to make a meme.

I spent a bit over 4 hrs since Day 1, and I just got 2x atmas from running CE as Fates often died before I could reach them. I did manage to collect 3k silver pieces just for the riding map alone, but boy is this RNG harsh on me.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

This is always and will always be such a silly argument. The playerbase is not one collective hivemind. People who liked the previous relic step aren't going to post on the forums praising how much they like it, but many certainly will complain if they don't like the current change because, well... they liked the previous system. Likewise, people frustrated with EW's tome relics are much quieter now because they prefer having a grind.

What's especially funny is how that response you quoted blatantly ignores the discussion in this thread where almost every player criticism the atma step isn't doing so because they hate grinding, but rather dislike the RNG aspect of it. In other words, they didn't bother reading and just tried to make a meme.

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my response is perfectly fine, you can have all the discussion you want, the relic will never be fine, how much you bet if it was light farming people would complain about it too. Maybe give criticism in good faith instead of stomping feet and crying like babies. You have 2 months to complete the relic, you don't have to do it in 1 day and you can pace yourself with how many fates you do at a time, and it is just a 1 time grind since all others can be bought with tomes after. seems a good compromise to me.

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Originally Posted by CNitsah

Honestly, with atma being nearly unanimously considered as bad, and them acknoledging it in the cutscene, it baffles me that's what they went for...

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Oh for sure, but at least it's a one time step at the start, lessons the blow ever so slightly.

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Originally Posted by SoleilAlphi

I am not salty, but i have to laugh at how first no grind sucks, then the grind sucks, give it a week and folks will want the tomes back

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Most players, like myself, don't mind the grind, but GRINDING for me should produce results. Even though this is the first step of the relic, the grind should produce & not frustrate players. Players should not have to be in a zone for 6 hours to end up getting 0 to 1 with the horrible RNG. That's stupid to me & I have been playing video games for over 43 yrs; so I know what I like when it comes to grinding. This first step shouldn't frustrate players. FFXIV is my first MMO & played it since ARR. The only relics I obtained were from EW. I agree, tomestone grinding was boring & different steps should have been added like obtaining crystals or atmas from 24 man raids, certain dungeons, instances, etc. But when it came to relic weapons, EW relics were the only ones I obtained.

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Originally Posted by CidHeiral

"Relics grinds are too hard! Make them easier!"

"Ok, now they're easier."

"Relic grinds are too easy! Make them harder!"

"Ok, now they're harder."

"Relics grinds are too hard! Make them easier!"

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Tpzq-k9hv9M/maxresdefault.jpg

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LOL.
I have posted in several threads, there should be productivity when it comes to grinding. Players, like myself, don't have an issue with grinding, but it has to be productive; it has to produce. Players who have been grinding the FATES in one zone for 6 hours to result in getting 0 to 1 atma should complain because it's ridiculous!! Especially since this is the 1st step for the relic, we have 3 more future patches to make grinding more involved & a little more time-consuming in the end, results for grinding have to be produced in a timely fashion. Just my opinion.

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Originally Posted by CidHeiral

"Relics grinds are too hard! Make them easier!"

"Ok, now they're easier."

"Relic grinds are too easy! Make them harder!"

"Ok, now they're harder."

"Relics grinds are too hard! Make them easier!"

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One day we will realize that different people want different things from the relic and that the community isnt a hivemind. One day.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

One day we will realize that different people want different things from the relic and that the community isnt a hivemind. One day.

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This is a very ambitious post.