8.0 rework will be a joke

Feel like I should point out, with how lackluster DT is being, future patches not looking exactly great either, people relying on an "exploration" zone to save the expansion... why is there such huge faith in 8.0?

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Originally Posted by Yeol

Heavensward & even Stromblood got a lot of backlash from the playerbase.

People constantly complained if their favorite job wasn't part of meta. Most of the people complaining aren't even participating in World Race nor clearing Savage week 1.

Non-meta comps can still clear Savage week 3~4 just fine with tome gear & Savage loot drops. Yet, people still complained just because they want to feel good about playing a meta job.

There were a lot of problems in PF. People were locking out/kicking certain jobs because they're not part of meta. Despite the fact that it was probably week 4+ where forcing meta is redundant.

https://media.giphy.com/media/c1dwjOnIrYkUg/giphy.gif

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the problem was Gordias (gear check) not the balance, it's like if M4s or P8s had a "i730" "i630" min ilvl requirement

The problem is not just the devs. Its the community. This community does not accept uniqueness. Dont forget ppl who were protesting against viper design saying it was too hard to use vs those demanding not to change. If SE wants to do this right. They need to ignore ppl who refuse to learn to play these jobs. At least thats a theory. Still this community needs to embrace change first.

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Originally Posted by Lilapop

Feel like I should point out, with how lackluster DT is being, future patches not looking exactly great either, people relying on an "exploration" zone to save the expansion... why is there such huge faith in 8.0?

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Its called copium / coping.

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Originally Posted by Zakuyia

The problem is not just the devs. Its the community. This community does not accept uniqueness. Dont forget ppl who were protesting against viper design saying it was too hard to use vs those demanding not to change. If SE wants to do this right. They need to ignore ppl who refuse to learn to play these jobs. At least thats a theory. Still this community needs to embrace change first.

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It's also, people unhappy are more likely to be vocal than people who are happy. For every jaded unhappy person here in the echo chamber, there's probably a dozen happy people who play the game without interacting with the forums or reddit. Half the people on the forums/reddit can't even agree upon what they want, the other half can't read, the rest are "skill issue git good"

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Originally Posted by Lilapop

It's also, people unhappy are more likely to be vocal than people who are happy. For every jaded unhappy person here in the echo chamber, there's probably a dozen happy people who play the game without interacting with the forums or reddit. Half the people on the forums/reddit can't even agree upon what they want, the other half can't read, the rest are "skill issue git good"

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Quote:

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“Only 1 out of 26 unhappy customers complain. The rest churn. A lesson here is that companies should not view absence of feedback as a sign of satisfaction. The true enemy is indifference.”

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Source

That last part is important. Silence does not equal satisfaction or happiness

Even the SE devs said they "apparantly" learnt this back in the old days.
https://i.imgur.com/NHDNnZU.png

Number 3!

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Originally Posted by CaedemSanguis

the problem was Gordias (gear check) not the balance, it's like if M4s or P8s had a "i730" "i630" min ilvl requirement

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Yep, it was mostly gear-gated. Since fights only dropped random gear that was job locked + 2 drops instead of 3. Meaning you can go few weeks without members getting any useful loot from Savage.

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Originally Posted by Yeol

Part of the reward for playing a high-ceiling job correctly is dealing more damage. This doesn't mean that more punishing jobs aren't fun to play. HW DRK & MCH come to mind. It felt satisfying & rewarding when playing them correctly. They were punishing to mistakes, but still fun. Others might disagree & say they had a bad design. This entire topic about job design & what people find fun is subjective. What we should agree on is that more effort should be rewarded with more damage. Equating high effort with low effort is not fair.

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I agree with everything you said except for the part of damage output differences based on skill, for the simple reason that I do believe in good accessibility across the board and high ceilings across the board as well.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Number 3!

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People complain about everything though? One person's complaint can contradict another person's complaint entirely? Things along the lines of "this is bad" doesn't really say anything either. Why is it bad? How can it be better? This community can't even agree what the terms "casual" and "hardcore" mean, the "complaints" are hardly much better.

What I expect from 8.0 "Job Identity" Patch:
-Intervene Deleted, Onslaught deleted, All Tanks get the same no damage gap closer

What I want from it:
-WAR gets to keep damage gap closers but gets a lot of them
-DRK can either do the shadowstride gapcloser, or do it with no target and teleport forward similar to en avant or hell's ingress
-GNB can gap close to allies or the boss, and has a shorter CD on it
-PLD can gap close to allies or the boss with a standard CD, but when you gap close to allies they get a shield


Or something like that, this shits so easy to give jobs their own flavor and fit into their identities, I just don't think SE cares.

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Originally Posted by Lilapop

It's also, people unhappy are more likely to be vocal than people who are happy. For every jaded unhappy person here in the echo chamber, there's probably a dozen happy people who play the game without interacting with the forums or reddit. Half the people on the forums/reddit can't even agree upon what they want, the other half can't read, the rest are "skill issue git good"

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I agree cause the amount of dt too hard vs no its not is amazing. Your lvl 100 and crying dt too hard.... were in serious trouble.

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Originally Posted by Zakuyia

I agree cause the amount of dt too hard vs no its not is amazing. Your lvl 100 and crying dt too hard.... were in serious trouble.

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DT is harder in it's casual content and easier in it's hard content

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Originally Posted by Oizen

-DRK can either do the shadowstride gapcloser, or do it with no target and teleport forward similar to en avant or hell's ingress

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One idea I had thought of ages ago for DRK was to have Plunge be a ground-targeted AoE; keep the animation, but rather than attacking a target, it goes to wherever the player clicks and the animation plays mostly the same, but the vfx at the end changes to like a small dark explosion. Not exactly a necessary change, but considering how samey the gapclosers were in EW (and how dreadful Shadowstride looks and feels), it would give Plunge a bit more uniqueness and possible extra mobility that the other tanks wouldn't have.

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Originally Posted by Lilapop

People complain about everything though? One person's complaint can contradict another person's complaint entirely? Things along the lines of "this is bad" doesn't really say anything either. Why is it bad? How can it be better? This community can't even agree what the terms "casual" and "hardcore" mean, the "complaints" are hardly much better.

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That's where it's the developer's job to sift through the negative feedback to figure out which of it is valid, make an effort to find out concrete information on why people think it's bad.
It sure sounds annoying but that's the unfortunate reality.

The people complaining actually still care, when they simply quit you know you have messed up.

Because those people have been through the process of getting annoyed, complaining, slowly getting angry and ultimately becoming apathetic.
And during this entire process they most likely have been searching for a replacement game, so when they finally quit it is very unlikely for them to come back, they don't care anymore what you do.

The proof is in the pudding, the only proof they have given us so far is that they are REALLY SLOW with their promised features and QoL. They are very rigid, lacking resources or just straight up incompetent on a lot of things when it comes to innovation. I have 0 reason to believe that 8.0 will somehow be somekind of saving grace, I've finally begun to understand what kind of a minefield the japanese language is to navigate and how you can't really take ANY sentence at face value. Combine that with P.R talk and you get a fine mess of lack of honest communication from the devs.

And worst case scenario, they actually release a banger and prove me wrong? But until then, I think it's my duty as a customer to keep complaining until I feel like my wallet is given its worth for a MONTHLY PAYMENT.

8.0 is my "vote with my wallet" moment though. If the story is equally childishly written and the gameplay is stagnant, I'm gone.

I feel like healers and tanks will get mostly ignored honestly, I feel as if the balance team doesn't really even know what to do with non dps roles in a game where DPS is number 1. Which I think is funny because Healers and tanks are most in need of new updated designs.

Most likely what you'll see is some reversion on 2 minute meta, as this has become one of the key complaints which is valid but I also don't think 2 minute meta is the only issue, some job reworks that aren't really getting some play right now, maybe one or two attempts at a "unique" skill on a job.

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Originally Posted by CaedemSanguis

I think they can manage balance (not perfect balance oc but it will only affect HC raiders) + reward + fun

they did it in HW

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You must be a ShB baby

HW was absolutely not balanced. The meta was triple piercing + NIN.

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Originally Posted by CaedemSanguis

the problem was Gordias (gear check) not the balance, it's like if M4s or P8s had a "i730" "i630" min ilvl requirement

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And saying Gordias was a gear check... LOL

CN cleared Gordias in week 1. Most top raiders from that time agree it wasn't a gear check in retrospect. People were just bad. Check the A3S vod, they were playing very suboptimally.

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Originally Posted by Kazuke_Miso

You must be a ShB baby

HW was absolutely not balanced. The meta was triple piercing + NIN.

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No I've raided gordias / midas and creator

And I consider that HW was balanced, maybe not for week 1 - week 2 raiders but who cares, if your HC you're supposed to play meta (gear check aside), and overall casuals didnt give a fuck about the balance from what I remember

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Originally Posted by Kazuke_Miso

And saying Gordias was a gear check... LOL

CN cleared Gordias in week 1. Most top raiders from that time agree it wasn't a gear check in retrospect. People were just bad. Check the A3S vod, they were playing very suboptimally.

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kekw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iewfOmHjwYU
https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...d28688cb23af11

week5=week1, okay dude

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Originally Posted by CaedemSanguis

kekw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iewfOmHjwYU
https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...d28688cb23af11

week5=week1, okay dude

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Mr. ShB baby, do you know what "CN" means?

Why don't you go on The Balance and search what Aya Liz had to say about this.

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Originally Posted by CaedemSanguis

No I've raided gordias / midas and creator

And I consider that HW was balanced, maybe not for week 1 - week 2 raiders but who cares, if your HC you're supposed to play meta (gear check aside), and overall casuals didnt give a fuck about the balance from what I remember

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Casuals didn't even do Gordias or Midas lmao

Statics were actively filtering MNK. If you were a MNK you basically had close to no shot of joining a static. No one cared about Blunt. You either gimp trick or gimp piercing with a MNK choice.

This revisionist history is just sad.

Using external tools to analyze battles is officially prohibited.
Even if you are simply referencing figures posted on a website by a third party, using them to disparage other people is prohibited.
We recommend you read the Terms of Use again.

https://support.na.square-enix.com/f...&la=1&ret=rule

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Originally Posted by Andras63

Using external tools to analyze battles is officially prohibited.
Even if you are simply referencing figures posted on a website by a third party, using them to disparage other people is prohibited.
We recommend you read the Terms of Use again.

https://support.na.square-enix.com/f...&la=1&ret=rule

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Oh no, what will I do? Oh no I have to switch to another throwaway account

all i want is my Kaiten back :(

https://na.finalfantasy.com/topics/30

The Controversial Gordias (Savage)

―Alexander: Gordias, particularly the savage version, generated a lot of controversy. What was your intent when designing the raid?
Sudo: We had gotten feedback about the Final Coil of Bahamut being too easy, so we felt that we should respond accordingly. Not in a spiteful way─we truly thought that we needed to make it tough in order to meet people’s expectations. I think the general perception was that we needed to make something that wouldn’t be cleared within a month.


―There were a lot of tricky mechanics, like Digititis and Ferrofluid in sector three, and Judgment Nisi in sector four. How do you come up with those?
Sudo: The Living Liquid in sector three was based on Liquid Flame from FFV, whose magnet mechanic would switch characters between the front and back rows. Ferrofluid is what I figured that would look like if you dropped it into FFXIV [laughs].
All: [laughs]


―Was it hard to make two separate difficulty tiers for normal and savage?
Sudo: Alexander was the first eight-player raid with a savage tier, but we had experience creating separate difficulty levels from our work on A Realm Reborn. I feel like we didn’t struggle too much in balancing normal mode, because the whole team was on the same page in aiming for something with about the same difficulty as a hard-mode primal fight.


―What about the difficulty level for savage?
Yoshida: Gordias (Savage) had a gear check─which is to say that you couldn’t do it unless your gear was above a certain level. While there aren’t four difficulty tiers like in World of Warcraft, we did want there to be a clear difference between the first two and the last two sectors, so we carefully calculated the numbers so that you wouldn’t be able to do sector three without running the first two sectors repeatedly to improve your gear. We balanced it precisely, and that didn’t go over well. Unlike in the Final Coil of Bahamut, players couldn’t progress through all four turns, and with weekly limits, they couldn’t run it over and over. Essentially, we ended up forcing raiders to wait until they upgraded their gear to progress, with nothing to work at in the meantime. Then, on top of all of that, they had to deal with tough mechanics like Judgment Nisi in sector four. I have a lot of regrets, but in retrospect, I do think that our failed experiment in designing based on numbers alone helped us to grow. I would say that we took seriously the feedback on progression in the Final Coil being too quick, and in our attempt to create the “perfect” raid to make up for it, we overcompensated. Then for Midas, we loosened the gear level restrictions and relied more on mechanics─but managed to overdo it again. I think we finally reached a nice balance with Alexander: The Creator.

As a question, whilst I know the Chinese version is behind the rest of the world content wise, how are they with battle changes? ie. are they still on the old HW designs or, are they in the HW expansion, but with modern job changes?

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

As a question, whilst I know the Chinese version is behind the rest of the world content wise, how are they with battle changes? ie. are they still on the old HW designs or, are they in the HW expansion, but with modern job changes?

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They're in 7.0.

8.0 rework...
5 jobs..
Tank, Healer, RangeDPS, MeleeDPS, MagicDPS.
True Harmonization

I still want Dragoon back.

Well. The reworks are 3 years away give or take. And if youve instantly declared them a failure then what are Devs meant to do? They've already spoken about how the community bullying is demotivating them in every way, I can source if needed. And things like this are what he meant. People forget these Devs are not machines but creative and talented artists and writers. We should be encouraging them not putting them down from even trying. If you were one of this games devs and u saw posts like these DAILY how exactly would u feel?

I'm an artist and cosplayer and sometimes when I was making my cosplays or drawing my art and I read nasty comments online about how bad it'd be when done I'd also loose motivation. We all have a role in this.

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

Well. The reworks are 3 years away give or take. And if youve instantly declared them a failure then what are Devs meant to do? They've already spoken about how the community bullying is demotivating them in every way, I can source if needed. And things like this are what he meant. People forget these Devs are not machines but creative and talented artists and writers. We should be encouraging them not putting them down from even trying. If you were one of this games devs and u saw posts like these DAILY how exactly would u feel?

I'm an artist and cosplayer and sometimes when I was making my cosplays or drawing my art and I read nasty comments online about how bad it'd be when done I'd also loose motivation. We all have a role in this.

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If the devs want praise then they need to something actually worthy of praise, the reason people have no faith in them is because they have given us nothing to have faith in. Like they were already discussing “8.0 is the expansion when all the jobs get good again” while we were looking at actions for 7.0 only for 7.0 job design to basically be universally worse than 6.0 job design and people have been complaining about 6.0 job design since 5.0 at this point and you certain classes. It doesn’t really fill you with confidence

I’ll give praise if they actually do something worth praising (PCT for example is the best launch class this game has ever made and you will not hear me struggling to praise it), right now their net job design is not something worth praising or even “pity encouraging”

Who cares about the feelings of the developers? They're not your friends. This is a transactional relationship. You're paying to play a game they produce. If they serve you trash, you aren't gonna pat their backs and say "Way to go!". The customer is always right in matters of taste. When the food tastes like shit, we're going to complain. The reality is the backlash they're facing could EASILY BE AVOIDED if Yoshi P put out a statement saying "Yes, we're aware Dawntrail has not lived up to expectations. Moving forward, here is our plan;" I don't see that statement anywhere. Nor do I see them taking issue with any aspect of Dawntrail so far. I think the team behind this game has convinced themselves that this is 100% normal and nothing is wrong. I easily can say that nothing will change in 8.0, and I seriously doubt they're getting upset over forum posts they haven't been reading or responding to in 5 years.

What about my feelings on their product? They simplified Viper as soon as it came out, that's not encouraging at all. There is 0 indication of who they're listening to or what their plan is, and the time to collect feedback is now.

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

Well. The reworks are 3 years away give or take. And if youve instantly declared them a failure then what are Devs meant to do? They've already spoken about how the community bullying is demotivating them in every way, I can source if needed. And things like this are what he meant. People forget these Devs are not machines but creative and talented artists and writers. We should be encouraging them not putting them down from even trying. If you were one of this games devs and u saw posts like these DAILY how exactly would u feel?

I'm an artist and cosplayer and sometimes when I was making my cosplays or drawing my art and I read nasty comments online about how bad it'd be when done I'd also loose motivation. We all have a role in this.

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You're confusing the devs speaking out against bullying and the devs unwiling to face valid criticism.
When I worked in the industry, I was actually happy to see players raise concerns or critiques, and most of the time agreed with them because the actual common enemy was higher ups, usually all powerful divas (creative directors or art directors) that were too stuck up their *** to even admit that they either could be wrong, or would have to change their tune.
There is no excuse to be offensive to the devs and going into full ad personam, but constructive criticism is fuel to novelty and creativity and I'll die on that hill.

The devs also do something great that is regular liveletters, but they do not use those liveletters to do anything beyond building commercial hype (at the cost of a lot of spoilers, often). Instead of using those, you know, to actually discuss the hot topics, lay out their plans and talk about the hard things that need to be addressed.
They don't talk to us, they mostly advertise to us. It's like they're too scared of being told that something they're working on is bad, that they're above all too afraid to get involved into debates and take stances, and instead we're always presented with done deals.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

Well. The reworks are 3 years away give or take. And if youve instantly declared them a failure then what are Devs meant to do? They've already spoken about how the community bullying is demotivating them in every way, I can source if needed. And things like this are what he meant. People forget these Devs are not machines but creative and talented artists and writers. We should be encouraging them not putting them down from even trying. If you were one of this games devs and u saw posts like these DAILY how exactly would u feel?

I'm an artist and cosplayer and sometimes when I was making my cosplays or drawing my art and I read nasty comments online about how bad it'd be when done I'd also loose motivation. We all have a role in this.

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They've been declared as a failure due to their pretty high consistency of making choices that a lot of people don't agree with, in combination with their incessant gutting of systems. People need to realize what they say they will do, and what they are going to do in actuality are 2 entirely different things.

It's well and good coming in with the "Let's cut some slack", but I do posit the question... Have they actually been trying, or have they just been sticking to a rote formula because it works? They are more concerned with sticking to a near decade old formula, than what they are with delivering a good product, and it shows.

I'm happy with encouraging as much as the next guy, but people have been encouraging them to try something new, to try something better, long long before I was even active on these forums, and long before I saw issues myself. How long should people be encouraging them for before we realize it is a fruitless endeavor? 2 years? 3 years? 5 years? 8 years?

Besides, in your own words I am pretty sure you yourself have said in the past that everything in the game feels "lazy, half-baked, half-hearted and unfinished"...

So let me ask you, why should people expect otherwise? lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

Well. The reworks are 3 years away give or take. And if youve instantly declared them a failure then what are Devs meant to do? They've already spoken about how the community bullying is demotivating them in every way, I can source if needed. And things like this are what he meant. People forget these Devs are not machines but creative and talented artists and writers. We should be encouraging them not putting them down from even trying. If you were one of this games devs and u saw posts like these DAILY how exactly would u feel?

I'm an artist and cosplayer and sometimes when I was making my cosplays or drawing my art and I read nasty comments online about how bad it'd be when done I'd also loose motivation. We all have a role in this.

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Imagine choosing game developer as a career and being sensitive to internet posts, to the point of refusing to work.

Even if this post isn't serious, the fact that Yoshi-P considered to stop releasing Ultimates, due to some people using mods, makes me think some people really find this true.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

Well. The reworks are 3 years away give or take. And if youve instantly declared them a failure then what are Devs meant to do? They've already spoken about how the community bullying is demotivating them in every way, I can source if needed. And things like this are what he meant. People forget these Devs are not machines but creative and talented artists and writers. We should be encouraging them not putting them down from even trying. If you were one of this games devs and u saw posts like these DAILY how exactly would u feel?

I'm an artist and cosplayer and sometimes when I was making my cosplays or drawing my art and I read nasty comments online about how bad it'd be when done I'd also loose motivation. We all have a role in this.

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The ff14 player needs to spend $40 every expansion and $13 a month on the sub and who knows how much on mog station so that they can get the privilege of praising the developer team

IGN's Interview with Yoshi-P at Brasil Game Show tackles 2 mins meta

Yoshida: " "That's a difficult question," begins Yoshi-P. "We have skill rotations varying between 60 and 120 seconds for the most intense phases and that's how it works currently. But the reason it's like this today is that we've received, in the past, feedback from all over the world saying that the timing of fights were difficult, it was difficult to align skills between classes, we were asked to unify everything, and precisely because we received these requests to homogenize this, we homogenized it"."

In fact, in past expansions like Heavensward and Stormblood the design of fights and classes were very different from how it is today. Just look at classes that have completely changed from their original versions, like Summoner, Astrologian, Bard, and Machinist. Furthermore, the design of the bosses and the arenas in which fights take place were different, which created different situations - and functions - between melee and ranged classes. There are those who say that having the game less "on track" is more fun - and Yoshi-P is not against this idea, but there is a balance that needs to be discussed.

Although hardcore players make up the majority of those who complain about how FF14's combat has become homogenized over the years, there is a significant portion of players, who we can consider as intermediates, who may not dedicate themselves to the more difficult encounters as diligently, but who do want to challenge themselves to overcome the game's most difficult fights and engage more frequently with the combat system than others who really stick more to the non-combat options offered by the MMO.

Yoshida: "We're okay with making things a little crazy and having different timings between all the classes, but again, we made these changes because we got feedback that it was too difficult before. We understand that there are two types of players, so going forward, Regardless of whether we change this or not, the community needs to reach a consensus: what is better? Before changing something we need to get feedback from everyone", concludes Yoshi-P, reiterating that feedback through official means is taken into account by the developer.

And from this the question arises: how much should Square Enix listen to the hardcore portion of players, who engage immediately and frequently with the most difficult content that FF14 proposes, seeking to optimize each and every possible movement, in relation to the average and casual player. Who also likes combat? It definitely doesn't sound like an easy task.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CaedemSanguis

If they want to bring back identity (with balanced jobs) they need to make 15-20 "new jobs" (considering they already have an idea (data + 2.0 - 3.0 jobs)), also I think the game netcode/current pve structure (2mn meta for instance) is a problem

Im 80% sure that the 8.0 rework will be underwhelming, I hope im wrong but I dont have any faith in SE

what do you guys think ?

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want my honest opinion? i think SE is primed to make the same screw up WoW made but it have far worse consequences and im not talking the WOTLK downfall oh players are back copium argument thats been going on for god knows how long at this point.

PvP is both balanced and unbalanced IE - this class feels really good overall but this one is broken and other classes "yeah, just don't touch this one for pvp unless its CC"

the way pvp is set up and how everythings equalized if they do it right they could balance it fairly well and maintain job identity, but ive only ever seen 2 games make pvp balanced and those games died, a lot of people want balance but when you get it, it becomes skill based and more people are likely to leave.

for PvE - honestly i don't even know where to begin like we have DPS classes capable of soloing bosses from 50% or so hp in some extraordinary cases

but as for levels/content etc... i believe their close to making the same blunder WoW did.

WoW and XIVs stat scaling is somewhat similar to eachother, XI imo has the superior stat scaling for LONG TERM GAMEUPDATES.

the type of scaling WoW has imo is better suited for SINGLE PLAYER TITLES

but oh wait thats the thing XIV is basically a single player game with online functions...

and if you know what happened with wow after passing level 100 was around level 120 or 130 they had to do a level squish back to like 60 or something which kinda borked their games entire storyline and overworld content in a way

EDIT: TL;DR i see SE making the same screw up WoW did within the next 1-3 expansions

EDIT: oh right and you hate slogging through quests that GIVE exp? (ik these players exist) if they decide to level cap at 100 the last MSQ to ever give exp will be in dawntrail