FFXIV has lost it's heart

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Which actually doesn't make it any better.
She gets kidnapped by Bakool Ja Ja and 30 minutes later beats him easily with a literal random shounen power up.

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It was much longer than 30 minutes by any metric. It sounds like you've skipped the cutscenes. Otherwise you would remember the time the WoL was knocked unconscious by a scullery MAID with a mug of ALE, then one patch later somehow DEFEATED the dreadwyrm NIDHOGG in combat. Omg what's with this power-scaling???

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Originally Posted by Exmo

It was much longer than 30 minutes by any metric. It sounds like you've skipped the cutscenes. Otherwise you would remember the time the WoL was knocked unconscious by a scullery MAID with a mug of ALE, then one patch later somehow DEFEATED the dreadwyrm NIDHOGG in combat. Omg what's with this power-scaling???

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1. The fight with Bakool Ja Ja was in 2 half-areas after the kidnapping (Southern Urqopacha, northern Yak T'el). Not much time had passed, even in universe.
2. The WoL was poisoned/drugged, not knocked unconscious by a maid wielding a mug, and had already been a seasoned god killing adventurer at that point.

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Originally Posted by Astronema

Well when the current armor sets look like what was worn by thugs robbing a CVS in NYC I would say so ... Urban soulless monoculture and dei is taking over the game

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I couldn't have said it better myself. Let's just hope they realised DEI is actually bad for the game and not a good thing. Don't get me started on the overall voice acting quality this expansion (not even including Wuk Lamat)

Hey maybe Yoshi P realises DEI actually kills a game. Let's hope he does.

Meh, I kind of agree. I'm mainly talking about DT here but the overall voice acting is terrible (without even including Wuk Lamat), the story was incredibly forgettable. And now the 24 man drops BIS? Personally I don't like that but the last point might just be me.
DT seems to be full of DEI aswell

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Originally Posted by Zukkii

The simple thing that needed to happen was that we went into Tural by ourselves as an honest-to-god adventurer and explore that new world piece by piece. One expansion we explored Yok Tural, the next Xak Tural, while the story is building up to Sphene and Alexandria. This would make Wuk Lamat an even more endearing character as we would really see her improve under our tutelage.


But.. That's just my 2 cents.

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If Alexandria had to be a thing, it should have been a proper expedition to the 9th, not most of the shard being obliterated by lightning and the last bastion of life being grafted onto Xak Tural. We also didn't need yet another dungeon that's just playing through a recap of the fall of a civilization.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

If Alexandria had to be a thing, it should have been a proper expedition to the 9th, not most of the shard being obliterated by lightning and the last bastion of life being grafted onto Xak Tural. We also didn't need yet another dungeon that's just playing through a recap of the fall of a civilization.

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I agree on the first point. I liked the dungeon so will disagree there. But I found what little we got of proper Alexandria to be more interesting than most of Tural.

The new world (xak tural / yok tural) just feels kind of, solved? Like it speed runned through the discovery and development phases of a continent that has largely been cut off from much of the world because of natural hazards. Especially what with the dome and the "Okay, so in addition to fantasy South American and North America, we are going to do some time dilation 30 years into the future to introduce a cyberpunk society to a continent you barely got connected to".

Like I can only imagine what weirdness that Meracydia is going to be like if this is how the new world is. At most I am expecting one desert zone that is kind of what I imagine Meracydia to be like, such as the outback. Then a bunch of other zones that might or may not fit. Then with one endgame zone, the last zone of the msq, that is meant to be a rehash in some manner to Living Memory or Ultima Thule or Amaurot or Azys Lla. I can't imagine Meracydia being underdeveloped or cut off from the rest of the world.

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Originally Posted by Chasingstars

The new world (xak tural / yok tural) just feels kind of, solved? Like it speed runned through the discovery and development phases of a continent that has largely been cut off from much of the world because of natural hazards. Especially what with the dome and the "Okay, so in addition to fantasy South American and North America, we are going to do some time dilation 30 years into the future to introduce a cyberpunk society to a continent you barely got connected to".

Like I can only imagine what weirdness that Meracydia is going to be like if this is how the new world is. At most I am expecting one desert zone that is kind of what I imagine Meracydia to be like, such as the outback. Then a bunch of other zones that might or may not fit. Then with one endgame zone, the last zone of the msq, that is meant to be a rehash in some manner to Living Memory or Ultima Thule or Amaurot or Azys Lla. I can't imagine Meracydia being underdeveloped or cut off from the rest of the world.

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I don't think there's any lore on Meracydia more recent than Allag's invasion.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

I don't think there's any lore on Meracydia more recent than Allag's invasion.

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"Nearly the entire continent being rendered a wasteland. While some areas remain uninhabitable even today, those which have been repopulated remain recluse and very rarely welcome contact with the civilizations of the northern hemisphere, often times attacking any who approach, whether it be by sea or by air." The art associated with Meracydia from the partial quote I gave is a desert.

So my apologies, I mispoke, it is largely cut off, but because the locals are hostile. What this means on an expansion there could be anyones guess. Maybe Garlemald style where the locals are slow to warm up to you. But I can't imagine they would make it a whole expansion. Maybe as one of two continents you visit.

DT is maybe not as terrible as everyone makes it out to be but its for sure a far cry from the more successful expansions such as HW and SHB, mostly because there’s so much less at stake, so much less heart in the writing, and because our WoL isn’t the main focus of the story anymore. And the MSQ being lacklustre doesn’t help easily distract from all the other flaws the game has, which makes all of it more jarring… SE has lots of slack to pick up. :/

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Originally Posted by Chasingstars

"Nearly the entire continent being rendered a wasteland. While some areas remain uninhabitable even today, those which have been repopulated remain recluse and very rarely welcome contact with the civilizations of the northern hemisphere, often times attacking any who approach, whether it be by sea or by air." The art associated with Meracydia from the partial quote I gave is a desert.

So my apologies, I mispoke, it is largely cut off, but because the locals are hostile. What this means on an expansion there could be anyones guess. Maybe Garlemald style where the locals are slow to warm up to you. But I can't imagine they would make it a whole expansion. Maybe as one of two continents you visit.

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Thavnair was supposed to have slaves, corruption, nobles and pleasure barges, and all that jazz according to some lore items. But it was pretty much solved too and rounded off as a happy go lucky place with just a representative of the nation and a dragon behind it, aside from the apocalypse that lasted for.. half a day? I wouldn't expect much with this writing team, they are doing their best to cut out any nuance and destroy anything (including Garlemald) that would make us look at anything "problematic" or solving politics that they had courage to tackle head on with Heavensward and partially in Stormblood. Anything that isn't "Good vs bad" "Happy vs sad" seems to be hard for them now. I miss that scene where Varis stuck the heads of the Eorzean City States with some hard facts of their hypocricy, and Nanamo fired back at him.

You know what, hot take. But if they are so adamant in simplifying everything into an emotional simple soup of goop. They might as well make the next expansion a straight up love story between two characters in the MSQ. Mix in some politics into that, a bit of Romeo and Juliet, us in the middle of it as observers and solving adventurey stuff. Easy win.

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Originally Posted by AnimaAnimus

You know someone doesn't really have a good arguement or are just looking for reasons to be annoyed in situations like this, when they pull out the ol' diversity boogieman that the internet told them was the reason for all their (mostly fictitious) woes lol

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I just know you and the other guy LOVED concord

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Originally Posted by Gunz_Zbestest

Dei...really? Were you hoping for cheap robes and pointed hats? Lol, thugs robbing a CVS in NYC. I just can't right now.

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Tell me one game that worked well and is still alive with heavy DEI involved.How did Dragon Age Veilguard do? Or a show maybe? I know you loved Concord, I'm sorry it shut down... But there was a reason for it.
DEI doesn't benefit anyone btw, it only lowers the quality of any product, stop trying to play virtual paladin
Also their comment has more likes then yours... Curious, maybe people are tired of token characters and stories?

Elon is that you?

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Originally Posted by Exmo

Elon is that you?

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I'm sorry you can't handle opinions that differ from yours </3

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Originally Posted by BunnyReaper

Tell me one game that worked well and is still alive with heavy DEI involved.How did Dragon Age Veilguard do? Or a show maybe? I know you loved Concord, I'm sorry it shut down... But there was a reason for it.
DEI doesn't benefit anyone btw, it only lowers the quality of any product, stop trying to play virtual paladin
Also their comment has more likes then yours... Curious, maybe people are tired of token characters and stories?

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The critical success of BG3 and never heard of Concord. Why do they always say so little with so many words?

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Originally Posted by Hallarem

Thavnair was supposed to have slaves, corruption, nobles and pleasure barges, and all that jazz according to some lore items. But it was pretty much solved too and rounded off as a happy go lucky place with just a representative of the nation and a dragon behind it, aside from the apocalypse that lasted for.. half a day? I wouldn't expect much with this writing team, they are doing their best to cut out any nuance and destroy anything (including Garlemald) that would make us look at anything "problematic" or solving politics that they had courage to tackle head on with Heavensward and partially in Stormblood. Anything that isn't "Good vs bad" "Happy vs sad" seems to be hard for them now. I miss that scene where Varis stuck the heads of the Eorzean City States with some hard facts of their hypocricy, and Nanamo fired back at him.

You know what, hot take. But if they are so adamant in simplifying everything into an emotional simple soup of goop. They might as well make the next expansion a straight up love story between two characters in the MSQ. Mix in some politics into that, a bit of Romeo and Juliet, us in the middle of it as observers and solving adventurey stuff. Easy win.

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Nuance flat out died when we went from Shadowbringers' MSQ back to "Hydaelyn good, Zodiark bad".
But on top of that they did an any % speedrun to kill any and all mystery in the game as well. Everything has just been Ascians or Ancients all along, even the gods.

Dawntrail is simply continuing that atrocious trajectory. It's actually very reminiscent of Blizzard rushing through all their actually interesting lore every expansion until they had to scrape the bottom of the barrel with clown shows like the Shadowlands and the Jailer.

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Originally Posted by Hallarem

Thavnair was supposed to have slaves, corruption, nobles and pleasure barges, and all that jazz according to some lore items. But it was pretty much solved too and rounded off as a happy go lucky place with just a representative of the nation and a dragon behind it, aside from the apocalypse that lasted for.. half a day? I wouldn't expect much with this writing team, they are doing their best to cut out any nuance and destroy anything (including Garlemald) that would make us look at anything "problematic" or solving politics that they had courage to tackle head on with Heavensward and partially in Stormblood. Anything that isn't "Good vs bad" "Happy vs sad" seems to be hard for them now. I miss that scene where Varis stuck the heads of the Eorzean City States with some hard facts of their hypocricy, and Nanamo fired back at him.

You know what, hot take. But if they are so adamant in simplifying everything into an emotional simple soup of goop. They might as well make the next expansion a straight up love story between two characters in the MSQ. Mix in some politics into that, a bit of Romeo and Juliet, us in the middle of it as observers and solving adventurey stuff. Easy win.

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Yeah, something has changed within the writing team. As much about prior expansions, like shadowbringers and before, was how dysfunctional things were, how there was just an abundance of corruption and suffering, from the elite to those barely getting by on the streets. Like with dawntrail my assumptions based on the teaser stuff was there would be a lot of disputes between tradition and progress, of natives and foreigners, of ceruleum being strip mined by eorezan mining companies (as demonstrated in the blue mage quests). Instead, no, there is hardly any disputes, at most "Those dang trains are too loud and the rnnoek keep getting on the tracks", and both are solved with relative ease. The closet this gets is like a side questline with a pelu who gets scammed by a ul'dah lala, and the lala later apologizes. And like a side quest of how an old guy sold some Shaaloani land for less than it was worth like 20 years ago, but the descendant of the old guy is doing fine as a money loaner.

That it almost feels saccharine sweet with how clean the morality of the Tural societies are. The most morally bankrupt it gets is like over in Solution 9 and Heritage Found, but that is like "You mean the cultish society that likes to memory police people to prevent them from remembering dead loved ones, performs inhumane experiments, and also collects and abuses other's souls for personal survival is...evil? Nah, really?" Its like finding out Sauron and his orcs are the bad guys. Like what gave it away?

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Nuance flat out died when we went from Shadowbringers' MSQ back to "Hydaelyn good, Zodiark bad".
But on top of that they did an any % speedrun to kill any and all mystery in the game as well. Everything has just been Ascians or Ancients all along, even the gods.

Dawntrail is simply continuing that atrocious trajectory. It's actually very reminiscent of Blizzard rushing through all their actually interesting lore every expansion until they had to scrape the bottom of the barrel with clown shows like the Shadowlands and the Jailer.

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Elune is a robot, oh yeah, I know the feeling well. The afterlife, what about beeeehind the afterlife?
Every curtain doesn't need to be opened.

But it's a very japanese rpg thing to kill all gods and remove all mysticism. I absolutely despise this trope, but it is what it is. It leaves fantasy worlds devoid of fantasy and mystery. Destroying your imagination or any theorycrafting.

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Originally Posted by Chasingstars

Yeah, something has changed within the writing team. As much about prior expansions, like shadowbringers and before, was how dysfunctional things were, how there was just an abundance of corruption and suffering, from the elite to those barely getting by on the streets. Like with dawntrail my assumptions based on the teaser stuff was there would be a lot of disputes between tradition and progress, of natives and foreigners, of ceruleum being strip mined by eorezan mining companies (as demonstrated in the blue mage quests). Instead, no, there is hardly any disputes, at most "Those dang trains are too loud and the rnnoek keep getting on the tracks", and both are solved with relative ease. The closet this gets is like a side questline with a pelu who gets scammed by a ul'dah lala, and the lala later apologizes. And like a side quest of how an old guy sold some Shaaloani land for less than it was worth like 20 years ago, but the descendant of the old guy is doing fine as a money loaner.

That it almost feels saccharine sweet with how clean the morality of the Tural societies are. The most morally bankrupt it gets is like over in Solution 9 and Heritage Found, but that is like "You mean the cultish society that likes to memory police people to prevent them from remembering dead loved ones, performs inhumane experiments, and also collects and abuses other's souls for personal survival is...evil? Nah, really?" Its like finding out Sauron and his orcs are the bad guys. Like what gave it away?

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Eorzea and everything is just being washed squeaky clean. I didn't play 1.0 but I hear a lot of stuff including the horrid things the elementals did to people, like turning them into wildlings was washed away. I think the mining guild in Ul'dah was a bordello too? Aaand lo and behold, rubber bullets and happiness, and people casting aside ages of conflict because they like tacos.

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Originally Posted by Hallarem

Thavnair was supposed to have slaves, corruption, nobles and pleasure barges, and all that jazz according to some lore items. But it was pretty much solved too and rounded off as a happy go lucky place with just a representative of the nation and a dragon behind it, aside from the apocalypse that lasted for.. half a day?

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Source on the slaves, corruption, nobles and pleasure barges? I remember absolutely nothing like that aside from the one jerk in the Hildibrand quests.

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Originally Posted by Dikatis

Source on the slaves, corruption, nobles and pleasure barges? I remember absolutely nothing like that aside from the one jerk in the Hildibrand quests.

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Ahldskyf: “I would have the ship’s cook bake some bread using La Noscean flour and offer it as a gift to the ruling houses of Radz-at-Han, telling each house that the others had found its flavor to far surpass that of bread made from Ul'dahn sunset wheat. The nobles would have no choice but to agree, of course, and, not wishing to be outshone by their peers, demand that their kitchens also stock La Noscean flour.”

Ahldskyf: “The nobles of Radz-at-Han are obsessive about their odor. I suppose it comes from living in a land that is subject to the incessant beating of the sun’s harsh rays. The sweltering days and muggy nights leave nearly everyone on the island drenched in a perpetual patina of malodorous wetness. To cope, they spend absurd amounts of coin on all manner of fragrances and perfumes - and as luck would have it, one of the most prized is scented with none other than Althyk lavender! You see, my friend, the plant is very rare, with most wild varieties nigh on impossible to find in even the most fertile corners of Eorzea, let alone an isolated rock in the middle of the sea!”

Humble Servant: “Master sent you to find me? Yes, I suppose I was running a bit late. Please, do spare me the lash. I’m still raw from Master’s last bout of rage. I meant to make my way to the artisan’s shop to pick up Master’s order, but lost my way. Begging your pardon, I am newly come to this place, and have never known such city streets. Surely one so traveled as yourself has no such problems. No doubt the lash awaits me upon my return, but I fear the deed hopeless for me.”

Near Eastern Merchant: “I heard all from my useless servant. Thank you for your help in this. I confess, I know not which I am more eager to see─my servant put to the lash, or my new paper lantern hung aboard my pleasure barge. By the gods, this is a work of art if ever I have seen one. Just as I asked, it is a perfect blend of my own delicate tastes and a faraway exoticism. Servant! What of the job I put to you?”

Humble Servant: “If Master refers to the figureheard carving for her pleasure barge, then all is proceeding smoothly, save for just one small thing. The shipwright is a man of great pride. I fear he insists the special request Master made will require a sum more gil than originally anticipated.”

There's plenty of talk of alchemy houses, nobles.

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Originally Posted by Hallarem

Eorzea and everything is just being washed squeaky clean. I didn't play 1.0 but I hear a lot of stuff including the horrid things the elementals did to people, like turning them into wildlings was washed away. I think the mining guild in Ul'dah was a bordello too? Aaand lo and behold, rubber bullets and happiness, and people casting aside ages of conflict because they like tacos.

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The miner's guild dancers were touched on very briefly in some dialogue where the current guildmaster established that she used to be one.

Mind you, maybe slaves is the wrong word for it, indentured servitude maybe? Something akin to Ul'dahs debt slavery. Maybe I read into that too much, but the whole notion of any nobility was struck out from the main picture. It's not that I crave darkness, but the world was written as pretty dark in ARR even, more so in Heavensward and Stormblood, Shadowbringers too and suddenly it just began softening up. So turning it suddenly into this fluffy paradise is really jarring. It's total change of tone in the worldbuilding and it doesn't fit.

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Originally Posted by Hallarem

Mind you, maybe slaves is the wrong word for it, indentured servitude maybe? Something akin to Ul'dahs debt slavery. Maybe I read into that too much, but the whole notion of any nobility was struck out from the main picture. It's not that I crave darkness, but the world was written as pretty dark in ARR even, more so in Heavensward and Stormblood, Shadowbringers too and suddenly it just began softening up. So turning it suddenly into this fluffy paradise is really jarring. It's total change of tone in the worldbuilding and it doesn't fit.

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Ala Mhigo/Gyr Abania is just really very poor in lore and undercooked as a nation. Doman society isn't a paradise though. That nation made people like Yotsuyu and Asahi happen, Garlean rule notwithstanding.
Tural was already an utopia by the time we arrive in it, which is the problem. And the people of S9 didn't have much of a normal human reaction to us showing up and destroying their way of life overnight.

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

Ala Mhigo/Gyr Abania is just really very poor in lore and undercooked as a nation. Doman society isn't a paradise though. That nation made people like Yotsuyu and Asahi happen, Garlean rule notwithstanding.
Tural was already an utopia by the time we arrive in it, which is the problem. And the people of S9 didn't have much of a normal human reaction to us showing up and destroying their way of life overnight.

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Yeah dark subject matter and conflict..ish is there.. kinda? But they gloss over it with unrealistic reactions for anykind of person real or fantasy.

Ages of conflict... and the way they solve it was... "Combining their foods.." yeah. Sure. Someone shouldve stuffed a big animal into a tub of mulled wine. The Dragonsong war wouldve been over in a jiffy.

Bakool Ja Ja nearly destroyed the continent and he gets the equivalent of a slap on the wrist.

Railway dispute gets solved by a magical whistle where both sides get what they want and is solved in an afternoon.

Its all so uncanny valley and like a childrens cartoon

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Originally Posted by Hallarem

Yeah dark subject matter and conflict..ish is there.. kinda? But they gloss over it with unrealistic reactions for anykind of person real or fantasy.

Ages of conflict... and the way they solve it was... "Combining their foods.." yeah. Sure. Someone shouldve stuffed a big animal into a tub of mulled wine. The Dragonsong war wouldve been over in a jiffy.

Bakool Ja Ja nearly destroyed the continent and he gets the equivalent of a slap on the wrist.

Railway dispute gets solved by a magical whistle where both sides get what they want and is solved in an afternoon.

Its all so uncanny valley and like a childrens cartoon

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In 2.0 there was a moral dilemma presented by the concept of faith, primal worship, and tempering that implied the act of belief itself could give rise to unimaginable harm even when its source was from creatures as mild and well-tempered creatures like moogles. Much like the player and the scions, Gaius (and by extension, the Garleans) sought a solution to the endless spiral of conflict perpetuated by the primals. (The eikons, not the band.)

And then... it kind of just resolved itself overnight. It was a little jarring. What was even more jarring, was after that, they proceeded to use the power of the 'good' primals to fuel the magic rocket ship immediately after. The 'Myths of the Realm' series inadvertently turns the 12 into primals in ALL but name, makes them all simultaneously useless idiots who sit around and get worshipped all day, and then commit suicide by cop as soon as they feel they've 'fulfilled their duty.' We even get some nice bits of apologism from Halone, Nophica, and Rhalgr. (The elementals are only racist to moon cats and duskwights because they WUV YOU)

We went from playing in a nobledark setting to playing the Final Fantasy equivalent of Fairy Tale (as if Kingdom Hearts didn't already exist as a SE property) in a little over the span of a single expansion. Infantile is correct. 2.0's destruction has been catastrophic for the story and any stakes we could have possibly had in it.

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Originally Posted by Hallarem

Ages of conflict... and the way they solve it was... "Combining their foods.." yeah. Sure. Someone shouldve stuffed a big animal into a tub of mulled wine. The Dragonsong war wouldve been over in a jiffy.

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"Combining their food" happened at the celebration after peace talks had already commenced. Its importance is it symbolised a compromise between the two cultures could be reached. Peace talks began in the first place because the biggest meanest motherfucker in the land showed up and told them to sit the fuck down.

Been a player in 14 since the 2.0 launch. This game isn't what it used to be and at first, my response to dawntrail was rather negative. It's neither here nor there anymore since it caused me to finally take a break from playing this game. I had no intention of returning but I have, albeit on a new character and a new account.

I don't disagree that what used to make the "heart" of this game has gradually vanished over the years, but I think it's less to do with the direction of the game and more to do with pining for bygone years. I mean this game was *the* underdog, playing it felt special because it wasn't the big machine it is now. The team have obviously stayed true to their vision for 14 but they've had to accomodate for a massive influx in player count and a stretching of the player skill level.

Jobs don't feel as unique anymore, content is easily accessible (good) and they're trying to cover the basics for everyone whereas before when we were a much smaller community, the direction the players wanted the game to go was the priority. Not so much anymore, now it's just a numbers game for SE. Which again, is okay.

14 Isn't the game i first logged into 10 years + ago. The characters, story, gameplay and world have all changed drastically and we've been witness to its ups and downs. I wish we could get that oldschool 14 feeling back but we can't and after taking a loooong break it's hit me that this isn't a bad thing. It's just the way it was always going to go.

Not to say we shouldn't still raise concerns or voice opinions. I do however think people do need to accept this isn't the 14 of HW anymore and it just won't be. Enjoy it for what it is and grow alongside the game like old friends.

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Originally Posted by Exmo

"Combining their food" happened at the celebration after peace talks had already commenced. Its importance is it symbolised a compromise between the two cultures could be reached. Peace talks began in the first place because the biggest meanest motherfucker in the land showed up and told them to sit the fuck down.

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Who the hell cares? That happened off-screen and before Dawntrail started. Any story and world building where 99% of the attrition gets resolved in flashbacks is pure garbage.

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

Who the hell cares? That happened off-screen and before Dawntrail started. Any story and world building where 99% of the attrition gets resolved in flashbacks is pure garbage.

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The people whining about Dawntrail care enough they have to make up stuff to pretend that's why they don't like it.

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Originally Posted by DisgracedDairy

In 2.0 there was a moral dilemma presented by the concept of faith, primal worship, and tempering that implied the act of belief itself could give rise to unimaginable harm even when its source was from creatures as mild and well-tempered creatures like moogles. Much like the player and the scions, Gaius (and by extension, the Garleans) sought a solution to the endless spiral of conflict perpetuated by the primals. (The eikons, not the band.)

And then... it kind of just resolved itself overnight. It was a little jarring. What was even more jarring, was after that, they proceeded to use the power of the 'good' primals to fuel the magic rocket ship immediately after. The 'Myths of the Realm' series inadvertently turns the 12 into primals in ALL but name, makes them all simultaneously useless idiots who sit around and get worshipped all day, and then commit suicide by cop as soon as they feel they've 'fulfilled their duty.' We even get some nice bits of apologism from Halone, Nophica, and Rhalgr. (The elementals are only racist to moon cats and duskwights because they WUV YOU)

We went from playing in a nobledark setting to playing the Final Fantasy equivalent of Fairy Tale (as if Kingdom Hearts didn't already exist as a SE property) in a little over the span of a single expansion. Infantile is correct. 2.0's destruction has been catastrophic for the story and any stakes we could have possibly had in it.

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The elemental apologist was some hefty bad writing. "Please understand their murder, they love you"
Let alone from one of the Twelve. That was one of the warning bells to me that they are softening the writing and hiding any nuance away of the elementals defending their own territory and their horrid deeds.

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Originally Posted by Exmo

"Combining their food" happened at the celebration after peace talks had already commenced. Its importance is it symbolised a compromise between the two cultures could be reached. Peace talks began in the first place because the biggest meanest motherfucker in the land showed up and told them to sit the fuck down.

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Oh definitely. But lets not pretend that the food wasnt the centerpiece as some weird epiphany of "Oh duh. I never saw it like that. Todler writing.

Same with how the Mamool Ja were just "pretending" to be dimwitted abroad and supposedly for a tribe that sends so many warparties abroad and outside of their territory, none of them had the bright idea to bring seeds to test with them if they grow in their lands. Ah doiiiiiiiii

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Originally Posted by Exmo

The people whining about Dawntrail care enough they have to make up stuff to pretend that's why they don't like it.

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Not gonna lie. I don't know if you hit ur head on the corner of a table, or your less than room temperature IQ tried to go into overclock mode....but what you said is the dumbest thing so far.... im sorry but.........yeah.....that was hella stupid and you should be ashamed of yourself for saying that. Im highly dissapointed you would think ppl are making up opinionated statements lol

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Originally Posted by Hallarem

Oh definitely. But lets not pretend that the food wasnt the centerpiece as some weird epiphany of "Oh duh. I never saw it like that. Todler writing.

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I'm not sure where you're from but where I live we often have these food fairs where people from across the world share their cuisine for locals to enjoy, as a way of sharing culture and encouraging mutual understanding and empathy. My understanding is these kinds of celebrations -using food to strengthen social bonds - is not uncommon in the world. So this story beat in DT didn't feel far fetched to me.

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Originally Posted by Hallarem

Same with how the Mamool Ja were just "pretending" to be dimwitted abroad and supposedly for a tribe that sends so many warparties abroad and outside of their territory, none of them had the bright idea to bring seeds to test with them if they grow in their lands. Ah doiiiiiiiii

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First things a fun little retcon, we don't need to pretend it's a cardinal sin.

Second thing, none of them had the academic background to be able to identify the right seeds for their environment and the connections to procure them. That's what made Koana and Erinville perfect for the job. Recall how there's no great university in the Mamool Ja village and they explicitly resisted opportunities to foster strong relationships with other societies. People who leave that culture wouldn't immediately become genius agriculturalists, friends and brothers to all.

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Originally Posted by Zakuyia

Not gonna lie

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That was a lie.

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Originally Posted by cheeplikor

I don't disagree that what used to make the "heart" of this game has gradually vanished over the years, but I think it's less to do with the direction of the game and more to do with pining for bygone years.

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I disagree. People are "pining for bygone years" because the direction of the game has changed. Shadowbringers and Endwalker destroyed a lot of the mystery that had been built up since 1.0, and Dawntrail gave us an entire continent full of people so agreeable as to be completely ridiculous. Every bit of conflict or discord is quickly resolved in the purifying light of Friendship and Forgiveness.

Even the English script (I can't comment on other languages) has been sanitized and made to be as non-offensive as possible; witness the modern affectation of using they/them pronouns (e.g. calling a singular robot "they" instead of "it," or an NPC calling my character "she" and "they" in the same sentence, which is just silly), or NPCs never acknowledging your character's race (I only remember two Roegadyn in the entire MSQ, Kettenramm and my character, and nobody seemed taken aback by a giant grey-skinned woman). I remember being a little shocked while running an alt through ARR and an NPC said "I brought the Elezen bitch." That line would never fly in the game now. DT sanded off all the rough edges that the game's world used to have.

The story doesn't have to be perpetually violent and dark and depressing, but there has to be some of that to make for an authentic, believable world. Everyone getting along all the time feels fake, and that is just one of many problems with DT.

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Originally Posted by Hallarem

Mind you, maybe slaves is the wrong word for it, indentured servitude maybe? Something akin to Ul'dahs debt slavery. Maybe I read into that too much, but the whole notion of any nobility was struck out from the main picture. It's not that I crave darkness, but the world was written as pretty dark in ARR even, more so in Heavensward and Stormblood, Shadowbringers too and suddenly it just began softening up. So turning it suddenly into this fluffy paradise is really jarring. It's total change of tone in the worldbuilding and it doesn't fit.

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Sure, then. It probably still exists but it definitely isn't the focus of Endwalker because of the expansion of scope. ARR-SB were fights for individual nations and the power dynamics within them. ShB and EW were about a fight for one's very existence in the face of cosmic powers. There's obviously going to be less attention paid to political matters when the storytelling focus is elsewhere.

We COULD have learned more about the nature of bonded and free citizens in Eulmore, but we'd wind up taking away from the sin eater conflict and the nature of the First surviving in a post-apocalyptic environment. We'd also have to take away screentime from Emet-Selch and his idyllic Amaurot, or how he's a multi-faceted character who never lies but is nonetheless an unreliable narrator with rose-tinted glasses born of his love for his people.

Similarly in Endwalker, we could have discussed more about Radz-at-Han's various powerful houses, but that would involve taking away screentime from the meat of the conflict and the storytelling about perservering and the value of life even through the worst of suffering.

I wouldn't say the worldbuilding is weaker so much as the writing has shifted with Ishikawa at the helm versus Maehiro, since she's definitely much bigger on emotions and big philosophical questions than she is on politics. This leads to more focus on contests of ideals versus the shifting of power and the gambits plied by those trying to seize it.

Even in Dawntrail, where the worldbuilding is a bit sparser than past expansions, we still get the picture that Tural is not quite a utopia free of conflict (despite what some people on the Forums would have you believe), but definitely the kind of place where a hero-king made his mark, for better or worse. The focus of the story is more on the weight of memory and legacy and how our interpretaions of both shaped the trajectories of the characters and the nations within it. Gulool Ja Ja isn't perfect or omniscient, but he sets a precedent that encourages his people to live in harmony, resulting in a city-state closest to Minfilia's ideal of people of all shapes living side-by-side in harmony next to G'raha Tia's Crystarium. Even then, we have bandit attacks, reports of corrupt businessmen, dirty cops in the frontiers, and people constant plying the Dawn's Promise for favors in hopes of getting their way.

So while I get your criticisms, I don't really think the worldbuilding is somehow that much weaker that the game has lost its "heart" as the OP put it.

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Originally Posted by Exmo

I'm not sure where you're from but where I live we often have these food fairs where people from across the world share their cuisine for locals to enjoy, as a way of sharing culture and encouraging mutual understanding and empathy. My understanding is these kinds of celebrations -using food to strengthen social bonds - is not uncommon in the world. So this story beat in DT didn't feel far fetched to me.


First things a fun little retcon, we don't need to pretend it's a cardinal sin.

Second thing, none of them had the academic background to be able to identify the right seeds for their environment and the connections to procure them. That's what made Koana and Erinville perfect for the job. Recall how there's no great university in the Mamool Ja village and they explicitly resisted opportunities to foster strong relationships with other societies. People who leave that culture wouldn't immediately become genius agriculturalists, friends and brothers to all.

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"Seed doesnt grow here. Lets try other seed" doesnt need a science degree. Its trial and error the most basic science even a todler can do. But I see you are now writing for the writers. So Ill stop here.

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Originally Posted by Dikatis

Sure, then. It probably still exists but it definitely isn't the focus of Endwalker because of the expansion of scope. ARR-SB were fights for individual nations and the power dynamics within them. ShB and EW were about a fight for one's very existence in the face of cosmic powers. There's obviously going to be less attention paid to political matters when the storytelling focus is elsewhere.

We COULD have learned more about the nature of bonded and free citizens in Eulmore, but we'd wind up taking away from the sin eater conflict and the nature of the First surviving in a post-apocalyptic environment. We'd also have to take away screentime from Emet-Selch and his idyllic Amaurot, or how he's a multi-faceted character who never lies but is nonetheless an unreliable narrator with rose-tinted glasses born of his love for his people.

Similarly in Endwalker, we could have discussed more about Radz-at-Han's various powerful houses, but that would involve taking away screentime from the meat of the conflict and the storytelling about perservering and the value of life even through the worst of suffering.

I wouldn't say the worldbuilding is weaker so much as the writing has shifted with Ishikawa at the helm versus Maehiro, since she's definitely much bigger on emotions and big philosophical questions than she is on politics. This leads to more focus on contests of ideals versus the shifting of power and the gambits plied by those trying to seize it.

Even in Dawntrail, where the worldbuilding is a bit sparser than past expansions, we still get the picture that Tural is not quite a utopia free of conflict (despite what some people on the Forums would have you believe), but definitely the kind of place where a hero-king made his mark, for better or worse. The focus of the story is more on the weight of memory and legacy and how our interpretaions of both shaped the trajectories of the characters and the nations within it. Gulool Ja Ja isn't perfect or omniscient, but he sets a precedent that encourages his people to live in harmony, resulting in a city-state closest to Minfilia's ideal of people of all shapes living side-by-side in harmony next to G'raha Tia's Crystarium. Even then, we have bandit attacks, reports of corrupt businessmen, dirty cops in the frontiers, and people constant plying the Dawn's Promise for favors in hopes of getting their way.

So while I get your criticisms, I don't really think the worldbuilding is somehow that much weaker that the game has lost its "heart" as the OP put it.

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They pretty much admitted that Endwalker was two expansions smashed into one. Thats why the pacing was off and proper time wasnt given to nuance but the main theme. I feel like the worldbuilding has become much weaker bjt I respecr your opinion on it too.