FFXIV Healer Strike and the 'How would you fix it?' line

Class concepts aside, I love seeing people's hotbar setups. Isn't your hand cramping up having to press CTRL+ 2 and CTRL 4? I would die..

And how do you move mid-fight? I still use asd movement xD.

Ah, I have my mouse set up so that the buttons on the side are considered 'CTRL' and 'Shift', so me pressing CTRL-2 is actually me pressing 'side mouse button' with my right hand, and 2 with my left

I also have big hands, such that I could theoretically hit 6 on my keyboard (I wouldn't want to though). I use QWES for movement, rather than WASD

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kohashi

In any case, I don't think making 10 bars filled with spells to juggle and systems will get people to stay. Complexity doesn't have to be resumed to how many spells you have and how many different buttons you push. And sure, let's say they make every single class an incredibly high ceiling to master. For a while it will keep ppl "happy" and then, people will master it, and they will say it's not complex enough anymore.

---

Can we please just throw out the idea that making players think at all will scare them into quitting entirely? It's a stupid idea, and I'm tired of dancing around the issue.
Take a look at any competitive game at all, and you'll see mountains of people who put in the time and effort to master every little nuance of their game. Why do they do this? Because it's fun of course. And every person who is good at the game was once a lowly level 1 struggling to keep GCD uptime against world mobs. It didn't scare them away, and the fear that it might isn't a good reason to ruin the fun for the rest of us. Can we stop pretending that having the same exact damage rotation from level 4 to level 100 is a good idea for a difficulty curve? What are people even doing through leveling if not learning how to play their class properly?
Furthermore, so what if a few players go "oh, I can't wrap my head around this. it's not for me"? Nothing can be for everyone. Not even this critically acclaimed MMORPG with a free trial up to level 70. Maybe some people just don't resonate with healers as a concept. Maybe some people just don't like tab targeting hotkey based combat. Are we going to start getting worried about losing out on that demographic and change the game to a first person shooter instead? And What of the healer main who watched their favorite role getting lobotomized into the ground to appeal to people who don't even like healers in the first place? Aren't you glad that you put in the time and effort to develop your skills in healing only to have some floor-licker whine about it being too hard, only for Square to decide that this is the mindset we need to cater to in order to create a better game.

My point being, People can adapt to a lot of things. Having a bit of complexity, or even a decent amount of complexity isn't going to hurt anyone. On the contrary, it will foster a large amount of dedicated players who put in the effort to squeeze every last bit of optimization they can out of their chosen job. Meanwhile, the casual who doesn't care about playing properly will just continue mashing broil and physick because they like the animation and don't care to read tooltips. This player isn't planning to play Extremes, Savages, or especially not Ultimates, So what does it matter that he can't be the best?

Also, Even if this casual player gets scared and logs off because pressing more than two buttons puts him into an anaphylactic shock, Why can't he just go play a different class without a complex rotation?
Seriously, we've got Gunbreaker and Dark Knight, which are known as the busy tanks as opposed to the simple tanks of Paladin and Warrior. Why can't we have White Mage be the simple healer with a simple rotation, and if you want complexity you play Scholar, Sage, or Astrologian? Remember, the main damaging rotation on all four healers right now is exactly the same. The only difference is that they get an extra button to press around burst windows, and Sage gets Phlegma, which you press twice every 80 seconds. riveting.

10 bars makes no sense, and we used to have more intricate and demanding toolkits before, and people went through casual content just as fine. They just had to learn slightly different things than today, where today you spend 95% of your time learning about encounter mechanics in modern dungeons and whatnot, back then you spent time as a tank for example how to pull and position mobs (not behind you), as a caster how to manage your mp, etc.

I do agree with the design but the other problem healer are now facing is DPS and tank role mostly warrior paladin are sadly a problem in themself and I will keep saying it all healing should be removed from every job that isn't a healer

What healer strike?

I see plenty of people playing healer, plenty of healers in PF.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GartredZW

Can we please just throw out the idea that making players think at all will scare them into quitting entirely? It's a stupid idea, and I'm tired of dancing around the issue.

---

I don't necessarily agree that we should ignore 'how scary the change might be for players if they have to think' (whether they're level 1 or 100) entirely. I do think that we need to have some flexibility in how much we can expand the skill ceiling (compared to where it is now), but I'd rather address the concerns of 'what if I press the wrong button' from some players with safety nets in the design, rather than simply telling them 'LOL you don't do content where it matters anyway'. An example is in the WHM, the potency of Dia was changed from its current 75 (plus 75 per tick) to 150 (plus 70 per tick) to rebalance it in regard to its duration being shortened to 12s. This also helps players however, who need to move for a mechanic but don't have anything else they can use for that mobility (eg a spare Lily), as a current-game player who presses Dia to fill the GCD of movement will get 75p and refresh the DOT, whereas in this WHM they'd get 150p (literally 2x as much potency), plus refresh the DOT (which also deals less damage per tick, and lasts less time, therefore 'losing' less potency to early refreshes). Additionally, Water/Banish are only 40p stronger than their Stone/Glare counterparts and are instantcast, allowing a player to choose to delay casting them (instead of using them as soon as they're available) at an average cost of 6.6p per GCD of delay, but recouping that lost damage by using the spell in a GCD where the player has to move (and would normally lose the GCD entirely)

SE's decisions for the DOTs (very strong per tick, very long duration, very low upfront damage) all combine to make a very inflexible combat environment where the very player who it's meant to help, is the player that suffers the most from misplays

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valence

10 bars makes no sense, and we used to have more intricate and demanding toolkits before, and people went through casual content just as fine. They just had to learn slightly different things than today, where today you spend 95% of your time learning about encounter mechanics in modern dungeons and whatnot, back then you spent time as a tank for example how to pull and position mobs (not behind you), as a caster how to manage your mp, etc.

---

I recently found some old screenshots, and here's a pic of my old ARR SCH hotbars (from the days before I learned to rebind my hotbar keybinds):

https://i.gyazo.com/7d93bbe5a50b6177...89b2c25c8d.png

Note how we had more attack spells (Bio/Bio2 separate, Miasma, Miasma2 instead of AOW, Shadowflare, Bane), and managed to have less hotbar bloat than we now do. Also, check out those MP costs, currently our 10k MP gets us 25 casts of Broil (before factoring in MP regen from any source). With these numbers? 82 casts of Ruin 1!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nero-Voidstails

I do agree with the design but the other problem healer are now facing is DPS and tank role mostly warrior paladin are sadly a problem in themself and I will keep saying it all healing should be removed from every job that isn't a healer

---

Healing on tanks is fine. Healing on tanks, as SE has designed them, is not fine. For example, I didn't mind the idea that WAR can use Equilibrium to heal itself once per minute when it was introduced in HW. I didn't even mind it when they removed the 'you have to be in the stance that costs you damage' requirement from it. I do mind that it can fully restore its HP, three times, each 25s, because Bloodwhetting is 'per enemy hit' instead of the expected 'per weaponskill used'.

I think a lot of the issues with tanks and how they're 'doing all the healing' would be solved by converting the healing of these tank actions, into barriers. For example, rather than Equilibrium being 1200p, plus 1500p worth of Regen, changing it to 1200p, plus 5 layers of 300p Barriers (like Haima). This protects them equally as effectively (technically moreso, because they'd now have access to a 300p Barrier for a tankbuster), but if they don't fully consume the Barrier layers, then it simply falls off. Same for Shake it Off, 300p of upfront Barrier, plus 5 layers of 100p Barrier for allies, will protect allies just as well against DOTs as the current form does, but once the barriers fall off, then allies HP will not have moved.

Finally, we've got stuff like Holy Sheltron. Rather than 4 ticks of 250p (1000p healing, same as a Clemency but without the MP cost or loss of damage!), 4 layers of 250p of Barrier, means that the PLD (or their Intervention target) is more protected vs now, but doesn't remove the need for a healer to heal them after the barriers fall off.

Of course, none of this would happen because people would perceive it as a nerf (when it's actually ironically a buff)

Rewrote SCH damage potencies, they should now be balanced against Dawntrail SCH (like how the WHM design is balanced against DT WHM). Biggest change is massively frontloading Miasma's damage, making Ruin 2 a part of the levelling path (between Ruin and Broil), and replacing Ruin 2's mobility aspect with Miasmalysis. Also, took the liberty of giving Art of War a slow scaling over expansions, to have it keep pace with other actions in the kit (such as Shadowflare, which has to keep pace with Broil). Even though Broil is massively increased in potency compared to Dawntrail (340 here, vs DT's 310), the meme lives on and 'Art of War is a gain on two'.

Also gave WHM's Holy/Holy 3 some gradual scaling and a higher potency at max level, to keep better pace with SCH's Art of War (while still keeping BOTE/Quake/Flood/Tornado as more total potency than Holy/Holy/Holy/Holy)

I'll get round to balancing AST/SGE damage potencies vs their DT selves at some point

I've always been a proponent that every role and sub role should have 1 "braindead" job and 1 "complex" job, so there is one job for every kind of player in a role. The playerbase wouldn't implode if they made jobs with higher skill ceiling if there was always 1 or 2 alternatives in a role for players who are intimidated.

Not every job needs to be accomodated to players who like really simple gameplay.

Funny enough I feel like magic DPS is the only role where that scaling complexity of job mastery is noticeable. SMN is clearly the bottom, followed by RDM, then PCT and BLM come next.

1. Add more dps buttons such as Procs, extra Dot's or anything to keep track of, shouldn't be intense but healers should feel different even with slight dps differences. Even high damaging attacks that cost a lot of MP, using too much will burn your MP.
2. Lower healing output on all jobs, I don't mind tanks or dps having some small cooldowns that have healing tied to it, but they need to be weaker, Healers cooldowns are also way too strong healing wise. (Get rid of per enemy healing effects on BW)
3. Get rid of some bloat skills & useless ones.

Just some things i can think of on the top of my head.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ReynTime

I've always been a proponent that every role and sub role should have 1 "braindead" job and 1 "complex" job, so there is one job for every kind of player in a role. The playerbase wouldn't implode if they made jobs with higher skill ceiling if there was always 1 or 2 alternatives in a role for players who are intimidated.

Not every job needs to be accomodated to players who like really simple gameplay.

Funny enough I feel like magic DPS is the only role where that scaling complexity of job mastery is noticeable. SMN is clearly the bottom, followed by RDM, then PCT and BLM come next.

---

I often semi-joke that if people wanted a simple healer, they could always revert back to CNJ and have fun with that, lol.

"Don't Fix It"

I love my brain-dead Scholar compared to 2.0

How to fix it?
well it's simple : SE need to get some courage (to stay polite) and start nerf Tanks mit and HP Sustain and DPS heal/self-heal.

Because, bottom line, it's because thoses parts are too powerfull that we don't even need half of our healing kit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FudoMyoo

"Don't Fix It"

I love my brain-dead Scholar compared to 2.0

---

Luckily, this design retains such gameplay, as all of the potencies/effects of actions when using the default 'stance', Strategy: Offensive, are identical (or in some cases, even stronger) to Dawntrail SCH

Actually, that's a slight lie, because I also redesigned Dissipation and Summon Seraph so that they don't have the obscure 'mutual exclusivity' rules that they currently have in the actual game, so if anything it could be argued that this design is 'more braindead' at its skill-floor, while also offering a higher skill ceiling. Not to mention how busted strong this design's version of Seraphism/Manifestation/Accession are (though that's partly due to having to adapt how busted strong they already are ingame, to fit with the design's functions)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ReynTime

I've always been a proponent that every role and sub role should have 1 "braindead" job and 1 "complex" job, so there is one job for every kind of player in a role. The playerbase wouldn't implode if they made jobs with higher skill ceiling if there was always 1 or 2 alternatives in a role for players who are intimidated.

Not every job needs to be accomodated to players who like really simple gameplay.

Funny enough I feel like magic DPS is the only role where that scaling complexity of job mastery is noticeable. SMN is clearly the bottom, followed by RDM, then PCT and BLM come next.

---

While this could be 'a solution', I'm not a massive fan of it as a design decision. Take two players who want to play healer. One really likes the vibe of SCH, the fairy, the tactician aspect, etc. But they don't want to have too much of a stressful time trying to optimize the game and deal perfect damage at all times. The other, really likes WHM's flower motifs and being 'the classic FF healer', but also enjoys doing Savage and the like. I don't think I'd be alone in saying that having WHM be 'the simple healer' and SCH 'the technical healer' is not a good idea, because it alienates both of these hypothetical players. Conversely, if the difficulties were swapped, and WHM was technical and SCH was easy, then there'd be other players that get alienated.

Instead, I think the best path (and what I've tried to make with these designs) is the middleground: all four healers are simple to get into, and easy to execute for less competitive things like EX roulette, MSQ, Maps etc, but offer a layer or two of additional optional complexity for those players who want to make use of it, be that for week 1 progression or trying to show they're the best of the best at the job. The so called 'low skill floor, high skill ceiling' approach.

Since the example was brought up above, take the SCH design. You could simply ignore Strategy swapping as a gameplay element entirely, staying in Strategy: Offensive 100% of the time, and the job would play identically (kind of, some healing/mitigation actions are actually stronger in this design) compared to the current DT SCH. But for people who want to optimize their healing rotations, maybe swapping to Strategy: Defensive before hitting an Indomitability means that you can apply a barrier and mitigate a raidwide at the cost of an Aetherflow (-100p) instead of needing to use a GCD (in current game, -310p). But because of the way SE balances DPS checks in content, these optimizations are truly 'optional', you would not need to make use of them to clear Savage/Ultimate content

How to fix it ?

If I had to fix it, I'll try by adding more unavoidable damage.
- You did the mechanics correctly ? Good, still receive 50% damages to your pretty face.
- Constant DoT to everybody.
- Damage done reflected to players.
- Mini tank-buster to a random player (who maybe will need protection from the tank in hard content)
- More frequent heal-check

Here are the few options I'm thinking right now.

And reducing cost of healing spells so heals don't go OOM too fast. (you know, they'll use them far more often than now)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jidka

How to fix it ?

If I had to fix it, I'll try by adding more unavoidable damage.
- You did the mechanics correctly ? Good, still receive 50% damages to your pretty face.
- Constant DoT to everybody.
- Damage done reflected to players.
- Mini tank-buster to a random player (who maybe will need protection from the tank in hard content)
- More frequent heal-check

Here are the few options I'm thinking right now.

And reducing cost of healing spells so heals don't go OOM too fast. (you know, they'll use them far more often than now)

---

Yeah, pretty much just more damage.

The adds that deal raid damage in the lv. 100 dungeons were a nice idea but unfortunately most healers will just kind of inherently heal through it by accident while using their equivalent to asylum/assize for single target healing on the tank/damage. It would be nice if it actually required intentional AOE healing.

It's still casual content at the end of the day. I don't think it should be "hard". It just needs to have enough going on to require you to use at least half of your kit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jidka

Here are the few options I'm thinking right now.

And reducing cost of healing spells so heals don't go OOM too fast. (you know, they'll use them far more often than now)

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BigCheez

The adds that deal raid damage in the lv. 100 dungeons were a nice idea but unfortunately most healers will just kind of inherently heal through it by accident while using their equivalent to asylum/assize for single target healing on the tank/damage. It would be nice if it actually required intentional AOE healing.

It's still casual content at the end of the day. I don't think it should be "hard". It just needs to have enough going on to require you to use at least half of your kit.

---

The issue, I think, with 'change healing requirements' as being the entire solution, is that A: it would take so much more work to rebalance, recheck, make sure everything still works correctly re: old content, and B: it only solves the problem with specific gear levels. Take the aforementioned EX roulette dungeon mobs, that spammed raidwide damage. When we first encountered them, in our new lv100 AF gear at i690, they hurt, quite a lot. Many took to the forums, reddit etc to say 'this is great, we have to actually heal again' because we had trouble keeping up without using GCDs. Fast forward... literally a week? To when we had i700, and suddenly we didn't need to GCD heal anymore. Then another couple of weeks later, we have i710 crafted/normal raid gear, and we're healing it like it's just another EW dungeon. The speed at which we outpace 'challenge via how much we have to heal' due to our gear upgrading, is simply too fast IMO to be a viable solution.

That's not to say that it (increasing healing requirements) can't be a part of the solution (hence why I included some extra healing options in the designs, because I'd assume SE would increase healing requirements a bit alongside such designs), but I don't think it can be the whole solution. Because once we figure out 'how much healing is needed', we go back to the current damage that so many are not happy with. I don't think it'd solve anything, to go from 100% of my GCDs in a dungeon on trash (as, say, SCH) being damage, to 70% (because I'm required to press Adlo/Succor occasionally), because those 70% are still just going to be Art of War. Rather, having a situation where the skilled player can reach 100% damage GCDs again, and those damage GCDs being more varied, but a less skilled player finding their 1-button damage gameplay being broken up by pressing Adlo/Succor instead, would be the better solution I think. It gives the learning player a goal to strive for (swap out Adlos for Art of Wars, and Succors for Shadowflares, etc), and a player that has learned, something as a reward structure of sorts for their knowledge (having a variety of actions to use for damage). The 'variety' in buttons pressed when they're damage buttons, is also 'gear agnostic', it would not matter if the player was i690 or i730 in the Tender Valley if there were more variety in damage buttons to press, as they'd be able to interact with that button variety regardless of gear level, whereas with 'heal more', that might be true at i690, but maybe they don't need to GCD heal at all (even with increased healing requirements) at i730, and so they'd be in the same situation as now, where their GCD gameplay is back to being a single button

I did some maths back in Endwalker's 6.5, when Aetherfont was still a current dungeon of EX roulette. And IIRC, to get the first boss (the axolotl (?) looking thing) to deal enough damage to put me, a BIS SCH, in a situation where I'd have to use even a single GCD heal, it'd have to have done a raidwide for 20k damage, every 15ish seconds, on top of what it already was doing. I could go do the same maths for DT dungeons (eg the new one), but thanks to stuff like Divine Aura (1000p of regen) it's even more difficult to burden the kits. The sheer amount of healing potency we can blast out is honestly obscene, and I'm not sure how much work it'd take to get us into a situation where the incoming damage justifies the kit's power. Even if it were possible, I'd expect it'd cause less skilled players to be unable to keep up, and cause player friction, and we know SE hates player friction.

Edited the first post to include some musings on an idea on how to increase 'how much healing is required', via a new system I'd call 'Aetherblight', effectively Heal Absorbs from other games. Here, however, we could include additional functionality to the debuff, such as letting it be negated entirely if the player who it'd apply to has a barrier applied (which changes how a Healer might approach tackling the effect), or making it cleansable via Esuna (for example, if a Savage raid has a mechanic that applies '100% of your max HP' to everyone as Aetherblight, is it worth it to heal through that on all 8 players, or is it better to split up the two healers to cast Esuna on 4 players each?)

Tangent, but the more I think about what interesting support and healing features may be possible, the more I come to hate the idea of a cure-all/undo-mechanic Esuna, especially where spammable (no CD or low-CD and multicharge, and without limiting longterm resource costs). Hear me out.

Imagine we actually have some specific buffs. We'll start small. Take a CNJ, for instance, with its baseline Earth, Wind, and Water. Let's say we can use the Earth to Fortify allies, increasing physical defense, Wind to increase movement speed (not scaling with the target's existing movement speed), and our Water actions remove additional stored periodic damage or healing absorb based on its healing done.

Now, let's say there are specific afflictions, such as Ice/Cold/Frost/Freezing damage (whatever you want to call it), which as a Trauma (an affliction that lasts, at proportionately and increasingly reduced effect, until healed for the damage dealt, with its maximum duration --if any-- counting over time as proportionate healing done) will reduce its victim's Speed (movement, global recast, auto-attack, and casting).

You can therefore choose to heal that amount as quickly as possible to free up all those effects, or simply counter the debuff with a buff of your own to speed them out of would-be danger (especially since Wind's flat bonus to movement speed would be that much more noticeable when slowed). Or, as a WHM, perhaps you could counter the effect with Bravery, causing all effects against them to deal a flat portion less effect (a 50% or 30% debuff being reduced to 20% and 0% respectively). Etc., etc.

Esuna, unfortunately, just removes all that decision making. Instead of choosing between dealing with a specific portion of a debuff, trimming all just enough for now, or dealing with all of them simultaneously but less quickly, you simply have an "Undo mechanic" button. The only reason it'd ever have competition is the overpoweredness of AoE heals that, frankly, should be far more limited from the start.

Neither AoEs nor Esuna should be so strong. AoEs should be changed more towards weaker smart AoEs, as to not so anti-synergize with spot-heals and personal defensives, and/or be more limited by MP, gauge, and/or CDs. Immediate 100% cleanses like Esuna, likewise, should be more limited by MP, gauge, and/or CDs.

Thank you for making another thread on this subject. The presence of just one thread routinely in the top ten was simply not enough to handle all the endless, circular discussion surrounding this topic.

Plus, you made it because "you were tired" of "repeating yourself", and having a second thread will definitely, totally fix that.

Thank you once again for your "efforts" regarding thr quality of discussion on these forums.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by klu

Thank you for making another thread on this subject. The presence of just one thread routinely in the top ten was simply not enough to handle all the endless, circular discussion surrounding this topic.

Plus, you made it because "you were tired" of "repeating yourself", and having a second thread will definitely, totally fix that.

Thank you once again for your "efforts" regarding thr quality of discussion on these forums.

---

Tfw when one's post history is *exactly* as would be expected from its latest instance.

Oh look:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by klu

The.*
/10chars

---

___________________

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

I often semi-joke that if people wanted a simple healer, they could always revert back to CNJ and have fun with that, lol.

---

Okay, but do I get my Thunder, Stone-with-Heavy, and second Aero back, too? : o

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by klu

Thank you for making another thread on this subject. The presence of just one thread routinely in the top ten was simply not enough to handle all the endless, circular discussion surrounding this topic.

Plus, you made it because "you were tired" of "repeating yourself", and having a second thread will definitely, totally fix that.

Thank you once again for your "efforts" regarding thr quality of discussion on these forums.

---

Amazing when a problem doesn’t get fixed it births more threads complaining that a problem doesn’t get fixed

Is this like your first time on the internet or something

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Tfw when one's post history is *exactly* as would be expected from its latest instance.

Oh look:

___________________



Okay, but do I get my Thunder, Stone-with-Heavy, and second Aero back, too? : o

---

When you cant refute the statement, something something profile troll.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Amazing when a problem doesn’t get fixed it births more threads complaining that a problem doesn’t get fixed

Is this like your first time on the internet or something

---

... The forums have been further crapped up with another unnecessary thread, because yet another OP required his own special bespoke whine, thus increasing the signal noise and diluting the message...

But it's *my* first time on the internet. Yeah, let's go with that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by klu

... The forums have been further crapped up with another unnecessary thread, because yet another OP required his own special bespoke whine, thus increasing the signal noise and diluting the message...

But it's *my* first time on the internet. Yeah, let's go with that.

---

Yeah because signal noise causing message dilution is 100% the problem here in terms of the devs ignoring feedback

But increasing that noise *will* help?

People all creating their own threads on subjects that already have their own megathreads will help the devs more than confining the conversation to the megathread?


That's some kind of Schrodingers Dev Response right there, my guy.

The dev will either listen, in which case one megathread will serve, or they won't listen. In which case multiple threads of people "being tired" of using the megathread wont assist that goal.

Pick a lane.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by klu

The dev will either listen, in which case one megathread will serve, or they won't listen. In which case multiple threads of people "being tired" of using the megathread wont assist that goal.

Pick a lane.

---

Thank you for bumping the thread, it allows more players to see it, and contribute to the discussion. These designs are actually partially a collaborative work, as some aspects of them were suggested by other players, aspects that I thought 'hey, that's pretty good, I should weave that into the design'. The WHM having Protect upgrade to Plenary Indulgence, for example, came from someone I butted heads with almost a year ago, even when there's some disagreements, common ground can be found. So the more people that see this thread, and comment, the more the ideas evolve

The 'constantly repeating myself' that was getting tiring, was players like yourself coming into the megathread, saying 'yeh but I don't see anyone offering ways to fix it' and then me explaining a portion of these designs, to show that 'this is how I would fix it'. Typing out the potencies, the maths behind how close in performance 'playing optimally' vs 'spamming Broil' would be, etc. was a lot of work for something that ended up happening every 20ish pages on average, so I elected to make this thread so that I can just say 'This is how I'd fix it' and link here. If they don't want to read this, they weren't ever looking for an answer to their question in the first place, instead just looking to 'gotcha' people who aren't as obsessive-compulsive with the topic as I am.

After several expansions of us saying 'This design direction for healers is not going the way I'd like it to' and radio silence from SE, I don't care to just carry on saying 'this direction doesn't match what I'd like', I'd rather suggest ways to fix the problem. If SE uses anything I've written (even if it just inspires new ideas, rather than directly taking 1:1), that's a win in my book. If they don't, I can at least say I've tried everything I can (short of printing it out and thrusting it into the hands of Yoshi-P directly at a live event). The ingame 'Leave a suggestion' menu does mention this specific part of the forums as the place to leave suggestions, though:
https://i.gyazo.com/f4a735af7ade2466...0075c3c6bd.png

Strangely, no mention of keeping to a single Megathread

As for 'One megathread is sufficient', JP might use the concept of megathreads, but the west seems a lot more inclined to use the 'multiple threads on the same topic' method. For example, the concept of 'megathreads' didn't stop people throwing up so many threads about their character creator issues, where 'one megathread would have been sufficient'. But IMO it's a good thing that those players could make multiple threads on the topic (of character creator update), because it allowed for more detail to be placed in each individual thread. The Elezen problems were not drowned out by the Viera problem reports, the Viera reports were not drowned out by the Miqo'te posts, etc.

Assuming you read the designs on the first page, how would you suggest that I fit all of THAT, into the megathread without it A: being an unreadable mess, B: being in relatively the same place in the thread (eg: since people post so fast in there, how can I guarantee that all four Healer posts are one-after-the-other, not split between pages, etc), and C: easily findable by anyone at SE (or the forum moderators) who was looking for it? I don't think such a thing is possible, and even if it somehow were, it'd disappear into the sea of comments saying 'is this stupid crap still going' and the like, which doesn't do much good when the ideal scenario is 'SE sees these ideas and gets inspired by them somewhat'

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by klu

When you cant refute the statement, something something profile troll.

---

Given that it would take all of four sentences to have explained for any reasonable person why the OP would have the new thread would be a reasonable, relatively efficient response to the problem that allegedly gave rise to it... a desire to meta-critique unproductively and in purposeful neglect of evidence just to satisfy some emotive need of your own (in consequence, trolling) does seem the most accurate and useful explanation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by klu

But increasing that noise *will* help?

People all creating their own threads on subjects that already have their own megathreads will help the devs more than confining the conversation to the megathread?

---

Not necessarily, but some degree of specialization of purpose does improve the conversation itself even when subject matter may overlap. Or do you have only one political party, one union, one book on each subject where you come from?

Quote:

---

The dev will either listen, in which case one megathread will serve, or they won't listen. In which case multiple threads of people "being tired" of using the megathread wont assist that goal.

Pick a lane.

---

The OP wasn't tired "of using the Megathread". They were tired of people using the Megathread to comment on its contents without even being aware of said contents (e.g., making claims about its discussion that would have been easily refuted for themselves had they just searched a few more pages). Making a new thread that lead with the very mockups that the megathread's critics so often said was lacking from the megathread reduced the amount of useless criticism from those who happened to be ignorant of said mockups to those willfully ignoring their existence or for whom the complaint was only an excuse with plenty of other goalposts to retreat to.

You're pushing a dichotomy here that is painfully obviously false.

Hey man, if you can crap up the forums, by all means do it.

But you *are* crapping them up.

Not as painful as someone making their own bespoke thread to whine that they're "tired" of reiterating their points...

Which *definitely* won't happen here, right fellas?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by klu

Not as painful as someone making their own bespoke thread to whine that they're "tired" of reiterating their points...

Which *definitely* won't happen here, right fellas?

---

>> Please let us claim that X does not exist despite all the evidence to the contrary, since said evidence does not always appear on the same page as my post and no one could be expected to skim through the thread they comment on. If you must claim it does exist, please recopy it for us in clean, full detail independent on replied-to context each time we request it. Don't merely link a post, since those shuffle around.

<< Okay, then since this falls into just one specific approach to a given problem and can thereby deserve its own thread, I'll make a new thread and just link that instead?

>> Haaaa. Narcissists, amirite?

/sigh

__________________

Anywho...

As an increasing amount of my free time has been going towards MOBAs and hero shooters, lately, I can't help but notice how incredible some of those kits are by comparison in terms of density of available action/nuance per separate ability.

Let's take the Paladins' AST-vibe-ish support hero Ying, for instance.

Her kit is simple. Effectively...

• Filler attack
• Healing Turret
• Teleport to Healing Turret (or the location of the one most recently standing)
• Overdrive / Blow up your healing turret (as an AoE attack, customizable to instead AoE heal)
• Ultimate: Big AoE heal nuke that grants self and allies a brief moment of CC immunity

Yet, it manages to play significantly off the unique appearances granted to those skills:

• Her healing turrets are instead each a Mirror Image.
• Because they are placeable at range, she can use them to teleport over walls.
• When she "detonates" them, they seek out nearby enemies to blow themselves up for AoE damage.
• Since they have truesight, she can use them to guard against stealthed enemies, scout for enemies around corners, or finish off camped enemies.
• Once using her Ultimate, Ying can use allies as illusions in some ways, such as by being able to teleport to them as well.
• (And that's before even considering customization, such as in allowing one's illusions to heal nearby allies instead of damaging nearby enemies.)

Just by taking the basics of a turret-based healer a bit further, we end up with those 4 abilities (plus primary fire) offering some extreme leverage and some really fun min-maxing opportunities, such as from setting up ambushes (damaging Illusions) or fall-backs (healing Illusions), ability to pump damage from off-angles and teleport back, to heal-nuke one's main force via her Ultimate before diving with a flanker while the enemy team is suddenly overextended, to have her Illusions intercept damage for her, etc., etc.

Imagine what then could be done with even just a single skill more at such density, or a whole 12 skills at nearly that density. Or if the mirror images could act more like the player herself, mimicking her past movements. Imagine that being extended into a rehaul of an AST, with a small palette of skills spent towards Cards and the rest towards fate-weaving and manipulation of time, space, and/or mass (though I guess that last bit would ultimately be redundant?), perhaps using reflections of herself over time.

It makes me wonder what the PvE experience and PvP experience here could be like, both, with better netcode (so that PvP at 20ms ping here didn't feel like WoW's at 200ms) and a PvE design more open to more broadly integrated interaction instead of dividing the concerns of each role (outside of their sole nearly-uncapped output, damage) as to reduce the experience increasingly towards one of dancing around striking dummies.

New update, this time for the SGE (I was bored):

- Updated damage potencies. GCDs spent per 2min loop are now balanced to be 'roughly in line with Dawntrail SGE' (it's about 200p per 2min higher than DT's SGE). I based it on the assumption that the player would use 3 Toxikon burst windows per 2min cycle, but additional factors like Piety could make that value higher and complicate the maths further.

- Increased MP costs of Augments to 1500MP, and decreased MP gained from Addersgall actions to 500MP. Even with this change, the SGE would gain around 12000 MP per 2mins via 2 Lucid Dreamings, 6 Addersgall actions, and the occasional Rhizomata giving a free use of an Augment (effectively giving 1500MP), plus enough Addersgall for one spender.

- Decreased Eukrasia's MP cost to 500MP, and halved its Toxikosis generation. Reduces the likelihood of someone needing to use it, but not having the MP to do so. The MP cost cannot be removed fully, as there'd be no reason to not press it before every action.

- Decreased Psyche's damage to 50% of its current value, but halved its cooldown. Effectively, same damage, but you press it twice as often, which contributes to the 'fast paced' feeling of the class that this design intends. Additionally, Psyche triggers Kardia, so using it also helps with healing somewhat. It doesn't benefit from the Augments or consume them, it's just a regular instance of Kardia, so that Psyche uses don't interfere with setting up for a healing-burst window by unexpectedly stealing stacks (forcing you to either mess up your preparation, or delay Psyche until after, both of which feel bad)

- Increased MP restoration effect of Feedback Cycle, but limited its effect to Toxikon stacks (and Pneuma).

- Cleaned up some typos, unclear wording, and a stray reference to 'Toxikon 2' that slipped through

Honestly, I don't think I fully grasped how far into the 'bloated potencies' corner we've been painted until I tried to get this one's 'damage output from GCDs' close to the DT value. For example, I had to reduce Dosis 3 all the way back down to 310, a whole 60p off of what we currently have in DT, in order to make room for the whole '1.5sec GCD burst phase' part of the design. These filler potencies are out of control!

Maths is still potentially off when it comes to balancing the total outputs (OGCDs included) of SGE vs SCH, due to a hefty portion of SCH's potency per 2min being tied to the raidbuff Chain Stratagem. Though, I have tried to base the GCD output of my SCH off of DT SCH, and now this SGE off of DT SGE, so there should theoretically only be a disparity in potency output between the two if there is already such a disparity in DT. If SCH somehow ends up being the one that is behind in damage by a large amount, however, I do have a potential idea to help rectify it somewhat:

Nymian Libra (I'd suggest putting it at Level 50):
Upon executing Nymian Libra, the target is afflicted with 3 stacks of Nymian Libra.
One stack is consumed each time the target is afflicted by a DOT attack (Bio, Miasma, Shadowflare, Baneful Impaction) from the SCH, and guarantees that the initial damage, and every tick of the DOT, is a critical hit.
If a DOT with the 'guaranteed Crit' effect is spread via Bane, every secondary target's copy of the DOT is also guaranteed to Crit.
Upon reaching level 66, Nymian Libra would upgrade to Chain Stratagem, adding its effect to the listed effects of Chain Stratagem (the Crit Rate raidbuff, and the 'one free use of Bane').
Upon reaching level 92, a 4th stack is applied, and Baneful Impaction is able to consume a stack to guarantee it is critical on every tick.

Also, I may revisit the SGE, if I can come up with a good way to allow players to choose between using Toxikon on the fast burst window, or using it to empower Dosis for a slower gameplay closer to the current cadence. I expect there are a number of players who would not want to be 'forced' into playing as fast-paced a design as is listed above, and so giving them an option to play at the current speed would be nice. I'm just not sure (at this time) how to go about making sure that the potency outputs are equivalent, such that there isn't one of 'Fast SGE vs Slow SGE rotation' that is more 'optimal' than the other, but maybe I'll have a Eureka Moment at some point about it

Nice necro.

We don't need two threads about this subject on the front page. We never did.
Please cease crapping up the forums.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by klu

Nice necro.

---

Thanks. If people are going to keep bumping threads about other stuff, like 'can we get more Glamour Plates plsssss' because the problem still persists, I think I'm allowed to bump this one whenever there's a big update. There's a thread from 2022 currently on the second page. This thread is also not quite 'the same subject' as the #healerstrike thread. That one is 'there is a problem with the healer role and people are taking a stand'. This one is 'there's a thread where people have said there's a problem with the healer role, and here's my take on how to address the concerns raised'. If you'd prefer that everyone simply complains about the role, but offer no potential solutions and just repeatedly yell 'healer role broken fix it now SE' without giving any more detail about how it's broken... well, that doesn't sound productive for us or for SE.

As soon as SE makes healing fun in all content, this thread's purpose will expire, and it can fade into obscurity.
Until such a time, I will occasionally update the posts on page 1 with ideas I have, and then make a post explaining the changes (like patch notes).

Sorry that you had to read this thread again. I understand that it detracts from your enjoyment of the General Discussion forums, with such quality reading material as 'Dawntrail bad' and 'where are Viera hat'. If this thread bothers you so much, maybe don't post in it and bump it yourself next time

My guy.

If everyone jumped off a bridge, would you do it to? What about the anonymity of the internet makes people so self assured at seeing a gaggle of foolishness, and saying to themselves "Well I should engage in it too."

This threads purpose will not "expire" when SE makes healing align with your tastes. It never had a purpose, because there is already. a. thread. on. this. subject.

And you know that. You want YOUR special bespoke thread. And you're pretending that other people's lack of standards excuses your own.

Please cease crapping up the forums.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by klu

My guy.

If everyone jumped off a bridge, would you do it to? What about the anonymity of the internet makes people so self assured at seeing a gaggle of foolishness, and saying to themselves "Well I should engage in it too."

This threads purpose will not "expire" when SE makes healing align with your tastes. It never had a purpose, because there is already. a. thread. on. this. subject.

And you know that. You want YOUR special bespoke thread. And you're pretending that other people's lack of standards excuses your own.

Please cease crapping up the forums.

---

Problem, uits's too bloated. 1020 pages. That seems like way too much to shift through.

People on the healerstrike thread

“Why are you diluting your message with crap I don’t know what you are asking”

Seperate thread pops up giving specific explanation of what a lot of people want

“Why make two thread when one thread do job”


It’s like people will argue literally anything other than the problems people have with healers

I'd kindly ask you to also stop crapping this thread similarly as shown by your behavior from 3 months ago in that other thread.

“Why use second thread to complain use primary thread”

On primary thread

“Why complain shut up”

The comedy writes itself

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by klu

If everyone jumped off a bridge, would you do it to? What about the anonymity of the internet makes people so self assured at seeing a gaggle of foolishness, and saying to themselves "Well I should engage in it too."

---

No, but you're literally sitting here purposely derailing a fork that had every typical reason to fork (easing discussion of a more specialized sub-topic relevant to the mega-thread but optional to the mega-thread's continuance) just because you have a personal issue with the conversation it forked from. Don't pretend it's anything more than that, or you would have a far greater issue with the several copies of each topic to grace the General Forums that are not healer threads. That those somehow do not, judging from your post history, draw your ire more greatly in proportion to their waste, makes your issue with this one pretty obviously secondary or an outright excuse.

This is like somehow DDoSing the download server for a program variant on the basis that, to your mind, the the purpose of that program --and somehow only that purpose in particular-- could never deserve adaptation or specialization...

Quote:

---

Please cease crapping up the forums.

---

Please note the bathroom mirror if the obvious is lost on you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

New update, this time for the SGE (I was bored):

---

I appreciate the intention to tighten the maths here, but focusing on the absolute potencies over just the thresholds and targets (e.g., how much excess MP-over-filler-attack should be spendable per minute, and the bonus potency in relation to a filler that MP provides, etc., and the intended use cases for the given skills) does make it take longer to get to the heart of imagined gameplay.

Would be a bit easier to imagine, for instance, off just knowing how many Augment-granting casts should be available per minute, etc.

Similarly, the spitballed Nymian Libra effects do feel a bit bloated at this point.

(Nitpick/mostly-irrelevant, but Chain Strategem also doesn't yet feel very... Strategic, and while Libra could be potentially interesting as a sort of timing anchor like single-charge Reassemble or ShB Tsubame-Gaeshi, it also feels similarly... ehh? Though, I'm not sure how to make it actually feel any more Libra-like, either, off the top of my head.)