FFXI Dragoon No invites repeated

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Originally Posted by Eekiki

Tell them you beat Contra without using the 30 man code. That oughta get 'em back on your side.

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But it feels so much better when you show people they're wrong! "lol drg so bad y u make me cry amy? go blm" /proceeds to out parse every BLM in the party on DRG. Next time - "amy come as drg again"

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Originally Posted by AmyNeudaiz

But it feels so much better when you show people they're wrong! "lol drg so bad y u make me cry amy? go blm" /proceeds to out parse every BLM in the party on DRG. Next time - "amy come as drg again"

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Keep fighting the good fight, show everyone what DRGs are worth then. :p

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Originally Posted by AmyNeudaiz

Yeah, no. I joined up a new linkshell of a bunch of FFXI players who made the hop over to help them out and they all gave me plenty of respect and listened to to the advice I gave, but once those few words passed through the text chat "I never played XI" instantly all the advice I give is bad. I can see there's some of that all around at least on my server as well.
I can already feel any credibility I have on this forum withering away just by typing that.

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I was referring to WoW like players. But please.....do go on. :)

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Originally Posted by Velhart

I was referring to WoW like players. But please.....do go on. :)

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Yeah, uhm.. how was I supposed to know that? lol
But I come from another MMO and from my experiences there will be no meshing. Only "u no play xi? lolz u suck"

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Originally Posted by AmyNeudaiz

Yeah, uhm.. how was I supposed to know that? lol
But I come from another MMO and from my experiences there will be no meshing. Only "u no play xi? lolz u suck"

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Don't know, it sounded pretty clear to me.

You base it off 1.xx's system where it is more heavily based on FFXI ideals, when in fact 2.0 is going by a completely different battle flow. More "dynamic" and "fast paced" as Yoshida puts it. The dynamic content is usually referred to WoW's style of battle flow. From what I see, 2.0 is going to have a fair balance of skill and gear to play. I believe people will be invited into so called "elite parties" based on their gear and achievements and not necessarily what job they are on.

In WoW, the only time I don't see someone of a particular class get invited is when there is already that class in there, for the sake of decreasing competition. Basically, if you can DPS and know the fights, most of the time people don't care what you are on. Some fights do base itself off needing both ranged DPS and melee DPS in fights, but the balance is almost always there. I believe FFXIV 2.0 is falling under these same concepts and hopefully will go in this direction.

What I was speaking about before was a clash of the western based MMO audience who are familiar with WoW ideals and people who were FFXI players clashing together, because that is what is going to happen post 2.0, and what balance will come of that? Not sure. I do know however western MMO's do base fights off more diversely than FFXI/FFXIV players do, and they will still keep that ideal when playing. Hopefully class stackers overtime will see this and play more diverse than they did with FFXI/FFXIV 1.xx.

I state none of this as a fact at all, I just base this off how Yoshida expresses the future of FFXIV 2.0. If he is using a lot of concepts from WoW, then this is what I see happening with the game.

tl;dr version: Don't worry, your DRG will still be loved. :)

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Originally Posted by Velhart

Don't know, it sounded pretty clear to me.

You base it off 1.xx's system where it is more heavily based on FFXI ideals, when in fact 2.0 is going by a completely different battle flow. More "dynamic" and "fast paced" as Yoshida puts it. The dynamic content is usually referred to WoW's style of battle flow. From what I see, 2.0 is going to have a fair balance of skill and gear to play. I believe people will be invited into so called "elite parties" based on their gear and achievements and not necessarily what job they are on.

In WoW, the only time I don't see someone of a particular class get invited is when there is already that class in there, for the sake of decreasing competition. Basically, if you can DPS and know the fights, most of the time people don't care what you are on. Some fights do base itself off needing both ranged DPS and melee DPS in fights, but the balance is almost always there. I believe FFXIV 2.0 is falling under these same concepts and hopefully will go in this direction.

What I was speaking about before was a clash of the western based MMO audience who are familiar with WoW ideals and people who were FFXI players clashing together, because that is what is going to happen post 2.0, and what balance will come of that? Not sure. I do know however western MMO's do base fights off more diversely than FFXI/FFXIV players do, and they will still keep that ideal when playing. Hopefully class stackers overtime will see this and play more diverse than they did with FFXI/FFXIV 1.xx.

I state none of this as a fact at all, I just base this off how Yoshida expresses the future of FFXIV 2.0. If he is using a lot of concepts from WoW, then this is what I see happening with the game.

tl;dr version: Don't worry, your DRG will still be loved. :)

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Well, that's fair enough. But I still don't see any reference to WoW in your other post xD
But still, idk it's -really- hard to have faith in the FFXIV community as of late... lol

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Originally Posted by AmyNeudaiz

Well, that's fair enough. But I still don't see any reference to WoW in your other post xD
But still, idk it's -really- hard to have faith in the FFXIV community as of late... lol

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Well, in all fairness, if things like speed runs didn't exist, or bosses were not so buggy, then diversity would be more common in the fights. If those are fixed and gear/skill is balanced properly. Everything should work itself out naturally.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

Well, in all fairness, if things like speed runs didn't exist, or bosses were not so buggy, then diversity would be more common in the fights. If those are fixed and gear/skill is balanced properly. Everything should work itself out naturally.

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I think speed runs is really whats killing the diversity of groups i agree.

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Originally Posted by Malix

I think speed runs is really whats killing the diversity of groups i agree.

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Thirded.

Actually. Ok, They don't need to eliminate speed runs. What needs to be eliminated is that speed runs is tied to loot. I don't mind it if Speed Runs were tied to an achievement or bonus currency. However, NOT drop rate or chest number.

That said, if they made Battle Regimine beneficial to have a varied party set up (Have combos have a party variance bonus, or only possible to get the best Regimines from a diverse party), that would kill the problem as well.

Diversity isnt happening even if speedrun not there.

Prove > Ifrit, Moogle, Garuda.
PUGs will still stack classes because they are least path of resistance.

You are dellusional if you thinks ppl will suddenly stop class stacking if they remove speedrun.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

Diversity isnt happening even if speedrun not there.

Prove > Ifrit, Moogle, Garuda.
PUGs will still stack classes because they are least path of resistance.

You are dellusional if you thinks ppl will suddenly stop class stacking if they remove speedrun.

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Heres the problem with your theory. It assumes that everyone is elitest when it fact most players are either A. getting thier info from people who cleared the content first or B. people use whatever it takes to win with the most rewards. if u eliminate speed runs for example there WILL still be people who will try to use the best classes for the fastest runs BUT there will be more people doin the content because they can use more classes.

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Originally Posted by Malix

Heres the problem with your theory. It assumes that everyone is elitest when it fact most players are either A. getting thier info from people who cleared the content first or B. people use whatever it takes to win with the most rewards. if u eliminate speed runs for example there WILL still be people who will try to use the best classes for the fastest runs BUT there will be more people doin the content because they can use more classes.

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Except you can speedrun even with any varieties of classes right now and people still stack classes anyway?

so the core problem isn't with the speedrun, the problem is people would go with the least resistance path when given the chance, like it or not.. everyone like it the easy way.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

Except you can speedrun even with any varieties of classes right now and people still stack classes anyway?

so the core problem isn't with the speedrun, the problem is people would go with the least resistance path when given the chance, like it or not.. everyone like it the easy way.

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Well like I said before, it is just the mind flow of FFXIV players to stack a class with the least resistance. I am just hoping 2.0 gives us fights that don't call for class stacking while retaining it's difficulty. Also hoping the mind flow of western MMO players will show itself. I will see what happens.

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Originally Posted by ssppiikkeeyy

noob's use blm because they think because BLM hit hard they are the best DPS, but really there not there just hi hitters its the Overall DPS that matters. i seen loads of DRG out whoop everyone in a Ifrit party.

Me and a few mates of mine after 1.21 came out starting messing about with mnk burns on ifrit and after a few days of trying we finally did it and now we got that shit down.

If i feel like playing DRG to an endgame event and dont get to play it well fuck it i'm not going we shouldnt have to play jobs we dont want to just to get gear for our main that may also never be used.

People need to open there minds a little more and take chances fuck the safe way.

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I could say the same thing with exactly the opposite meaning. I like to play Dragoon it is my main but im not gonna gimp the other 7 people in my group when I could easily switch to a more needed/wanted class. Not to say DRG isnt good in Moogle or Ifrit, it is actually very beast in most any situation. Though I hate people with your type of attitude that think more about yourself instead of your group.

DRG burn in the Princess fight is the fastest strategy. So, I'll just leave you with that. Every class is usefull in this game. So in order to be the best you can be in all scenarios in this game you MUST level all battle classes.

DRG gets plenty of love (ifrit, ifrit-xtreme, princess, mistress), right now the jobs are actually balanced surprisingly well. Of course each fight has optimized setups and DRG has its places to shine.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

Except you can speedrun even with any varieties of classes right now and people still stack classes anyway?

so the core problem isn't with the speedrun, the problem is people would go with the least resistance path when given the chance, like it or not.. everyone like it the easy way.

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not really. have to use specific setup for 17min speed runs

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Originally Posted by Malix

not really. have to use specific setup for 17min speed runs

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We were talking about regular speedrun werent we? 17min is only for relic and isnt tied to darklight drop.

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Originally Posted by Krausus

I could say the same thing with exactly the opposite meaning. I like to play Dragoon it is my main but im not gonna gimp the other 7 people in my group when I could easily switch to a more needed/wanted class. Not to say DRG isnt good in Moogle or Ifrit, it is actually very beast in most any situation. Though I hate people with your type of attitude that think more about yourself instead of your group.

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That's a difference in perspective between you and I.

You believe I'm harming a group by specializing into a single job. I view it as providing them the best that job can offer by specializing. If me being in the group is viewed as highly harmful, I'll opt out.

But if I jump on some class I have leveled just to get my paragons crown in order to conform to the groups wishes, I can't guarantee the same level of performance anymore. I'm now on an under-geared and personally undervalued class my focus is conflicted and my instincts are that of a Dragoon, not a Black Mage or whatever job I have to switch to.

When I'm playing Dragoon, I'm focused, I know my extents and limits.

When I offer my DRG, you know what you're getting. You can be sure that I want to push as hard as I can as safe as I can and be the best DRG I can offer. I can't guarantee that on a job I'm flatly not interested in.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

That's a difference in perspective between you and I.

You believe I'm harming a group by specializing into a single job. I view it as providing them the best that job can offer by specializing. If me being in the group is viewed as highly harmful, I'll opt out.

But if I jump on some class I have leveled just to get my paragons crown in order to conform to the groups wishes, I can't guarantee the same level of performance anymore. I'm now on an under-geared and personally undervalued class my focus is conflicted and my instincts are that of a Dragoon, not a Black Mage or whatever job I have to switch to.

When I'm playing Dragoon, I'm focused, I know my extents and limits.

When I offer my DRG, you know what you're getting. You can be sure that I want to push as hard as I can as safe as I can and be the best DRG I can offer. I can't guarantee that on a job I'm flatly not interested in.

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but you have the attitude of putting the group before yourself which is good, I'm specifically talking about folks that refuse to play any other class because they only want to play one class. I guess DRG is a bad example since it is good in just about any situation. Hamlets come to mind though which DRG is completely useless in.

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Originally Posted by Krausus

but you have the attitude of putting the group before yourself which is good, I'm specifically talking about folks that refuse to play any other class because they only want to play one class. I guess DRG is a bad example since it is good in just about any situation. Hamlets come to mind though which DRG is completely useless in.

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But you do understand that I only want to play one class (at least, battle class) Right? I'm just willing to take that consequence if my specialization becomes unusable.

But the point of the game's content is to be accessible to all classes. If Dragoon is useless in Hamlet, then there needs to be something done to give Dragoon a use there. It does not have to be optimum, but the opinion should never be "Don't ever take [ x battle class] into [y event]." It can be a matter of who has an easier time, that's fine, but a person who sticks it out should still be able to be of use, instead of being completely useless.

Of course, by the time I get interested in Hamlet, I personally won't have a problem, as I'll have a DoH/DoL job to use. (I don't consider them to be classes worth exclusions.)

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

But you do understand that I only want to play one class (at least, battle class) Right? I'm just willing to take that consequence if my specialization becomes unusable.

But the point of the game's content is to be accessible to all classes. If Dragoon is useless in Hamlet, then there needs to be something done to give Dragoon a use there. It does not have to be optimum, but the opinion should never be "Don't ever take [ x battle class] into [y event]." It can be a matter of who has an easier time, that's fine, but a person who sticks it out should still be able to be of use, instead of being completely useless.

Of course, by the time I get interested in Hamlet, I personally won't have a problem, as I'll have a DoH/DoL job to use. (I don't consider them to be classes worth exclusions.)

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If you look back at the original concept of FFXIV, the point of the armory system was to change jobs on the go and prepare for any situation. SE tried to influence this concept on you so hard that they created a Fatigue system to get you to play multiple classes. However, that concept is not as strong as it use to be, and Yoshida is focusing on class/character uniqueness and making balanced party play for all jobs. This is really hard to do with the current Armory system, and hopefully it will be better designed come 2.0.

For 1.xx, you basically have one philosophy clashing together with the current philosophy, creating one giant unbalanced mess. Depending on how the system works in 2.0, I do believe that it will catered towards "Know the fights? Are you well geared? Know your job?", and that will be it. Not "Are you BLM?", unless you know, they already have your job in party and need a BLM to come.

In short, just deal with what it is right now, and see how it balances itself out in 2.0. Current Dev's are working with an overly complex program that is hard to deal with (one of the essential reasons 2.0 came to be). I will blame the Dev's however for making content that didn't cater to 1.xx's system, and for that reason, people get frustrated with the concepts, ending up taking the safe routes and finding any exploit they can. This is their biggest mistake in balance in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Pwnznewbz

Remember that game, FFXI? You know, the one where dragoons never got invites to parties? I am very, very disappointed that the no dragoon culture persists in FFXIV.

I'm relatively new to the 50 game and DRG was my first 50. I've done Ifrit. I've done Moogle. Despite this, I still have trouble getting into pug groups for these fights. What is wrong with everyone!?! Dragoons are amazing! Stop hating and start inviting. /endrant /thankyou

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Drgs are amazing and they dont get the credit they deserve cause of this games horrible AoE fest, I fear even more for Dark Knight seeing as Drg has half of its own abilities and Drks usually have moves that hurt themselves, which sucks more cause whm dont wanna have to heal a dd right now, god help then when a job need more healing than a tank.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

But you do understand that I only want to play one class (at least, battle class) Right? I'm just willing to take that consequence if my specialization becomes unusable.

But the point of the game's content is to be accessible to all classes. If Dragoon is useless in Hamlet, then there needs to be something done to give Dragoon a use there. It does not have to be optimum, but the opinion should never be "Don't ever take [ x battle class] into [y event]." It can be a matter of who has an easier time, that's fine, but a person who sticks it out should still be able to be of use, instead of being completely useless.

Of course, by the time I get interested in Hamlet, I personally won't have a problem, as I'll have a DoH/DoL job to use. (I don't consider them to be classes worth exclusions.)

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Yes I do but you are willing to step out instead of bitch and complain. Also concerning Hamlet I agree every class should be able to contribute but it doesnt change the fact that most classes are usless and will actually hurt progression if brought to hamlet. There is one thing to say "this sucks and should be changed" there is another to say "I dont care you should take me anyways". Also as for hamlet its not that some classes are better suited for hamlet its simply some classes have no use at all there is zero need for any damage in hamlet.

I didn't expect this kind of conversation to start off what I said. I've seen a few people say things that I agree with completely.

-I like playing dragoon over other classes.
-I'm best with dragoon because I play it the most, so it benefits others to have me play this class.
-I do agree that not every NM fight (ie Ifrit, Garuda) require 5-6 dragoons. However, there is a huge difference between a group leader saying "I don't need dragoons because I have them" and "I'm only taking ranged dps bc dragoons are useless."
-I think leveling multiple classes is the part of any mmo, but I don't like that it feels mandatory. I'm not talking sub class ability mandatory (like sentinel for white mage mandatory), but rather mandatory to get a group to do anything. I just leveled my 2nd class to 50 (white mage). I like leveling multiple classes, I just don't like that it feels mandatory for groups.

Anyhow, this is a great discussion about the under valuation of dragoons.

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Originally Posted by Pwnznewbz

I didn't expect this kind of conversation to start off what I said. I've seen a few people say things that I agree with completely.

-I like playing dragoon over other classes.
-I'm best with dragoon because I play it the most, so it benefits others to have me play this class.
-I do agree that not every NM fight (ie Ifrit, Garuda) require 5-6 dragoons. However, there is a huge difference between a group leader saying "I don't need dragoons because I have them" and "I'm only taking ranged dps bc dragoons are useless."
-I think leveling multiple classes is the part of any mmo, but I don't like that it feels mandatory. I'm not talking sub class ability mandatory (like sentinel for white mage mandatory), but rather mandatory to get a group to do anything. I just leveled my 2nd class to 50 (white mage). I like leveling multiple classes, I just don't like that it feels mandatory for groups.

Anyhow, this is a great discussion about the under valuation of dragoons.

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but I think Dragoon is a bad example because anyone that knows anything about this game knows that Dragoons are beast in most situations. There are a few exceptions such as AV speed runs simply because BLM power on coincutter + the ability to stay out of range of his melee AoEs and MNK power on mistress. And Chimera being mostly a ranged battle since it makes it so much easier. And then there is hamlet which isnt a dragoon specific issue its a no dps needed issue. If people are telling you no DRG on any other content then ignorance is to blame.

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Originally Posted by Krausus

If people are telling you no DRG on any other content then ignorance is to blame.

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This is the FFXIV most people know and lo-hate. While it's obvious DRG works in a lot of content, especially if you're feeling adventurous this isn't the case for most people.

I can safely say it's only a minority of the community that doesn't autoshun DRG/MNK from content while the majority only care for BLM stacking.

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Originally Posted by Krausus

but you have the attitude of putting the group before yourself which is good, I'm specifically talking about folks that refuse to play any other class because they only want to play one class. I guess DRG is a bad example since it is good in just about any situation. Hamlets come to mind though which DRG is completely useless in.

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Lol what? Dragoon is a beast in hamlet and our LS used one regularly when farming 60k chests. So much easier to have 1 DD in charge of burning down the special weapon mobs to 5-10% health then leading them to die to archer NPCs so poison can be reapplied ASAP. DRG PLD WHMx2 DoHx2 DoLx2 is a great setup.

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Originally Posted by Crimzon

Lol what? Dragoon is a beast in hamlet and our LS used one regularly when farming 60k chests. So much easier to have 1 DD in charge of burning down the special weapon mobs to 5-10% health then leading them to die to archer NPCs so poison can be reapplied ASAP. DRG PLD WHMx2 DoHx2 DoLx2 is a great setup.

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its not needed at all but there is room for one non whm, pld, dol, doh. Personally I like taking in a brd for the run speed boost >< but generally speaking there is no need for any dps. I can see better players getting away with it but I wouldn't suggest pug groups doing so.

PS: I probably wouldn't compare Blizzard skill to your average joe

i dont know what your talking about cuz dragoon are good dps vs some monsters on xiv

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Originally Posted by Gukie

i dont know what your talking about cuz dragoon are good dps vs some monsters on xiv

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DRG is probably the best DD on Ifrit (Hard and Extreme) especially due to it's reach...but it takes some iota of brain power to know how to play it versus the lack of brain power used to play THM/BLM in it.

My fastest Ifrit kill to date has been with a party consisting of WHMx2 (One for healing, one for dedicated Stone/Aero spam), PLD, BLM, DRG, DRG, DRG, DRG.

And I highly doubt the BLM was a dealbreaker considering how skillfully these DRGs performed.