So uh..why does this forum hate FFXIV youtubers so much?

Some people just don't care for youtubers and their opinions, same as some people don't care for opinion pieces on blogs or in the newspaper. I did find it kinda funny how when the general consensus is "game good" from youtubers, the people who hate the game too much say it's not valid or they're shills and the people who love the game too much flock to them. But when the inverse happens and a few big streamers start saying "game bad" then suddenly both side's positions flip. Human nature I guess

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Originally Posted by JamieRose

There are a lot of really good FFXIV YT channels that don't get enough traction.

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I appreciate your continued support.
Don't forget to smash that bell!

So, was this really 9 pages of "You should enjoy this YouTuber. You should vilify this YouTuber. Who the heck puts anything except memes and humorous videos on YouTube?" with the inevitable "white knight/dark knight" controversy?

I liked that one person who provided an ultimate guide to Dark Knight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmSNVYkKFAY

? I dont think about them enough to hate them. I watch youtubers all the time.
I just prefer to watch ones who do and teach useful things in real life, like cooking, housekeeping, fitness, university, career tips-if I watch a gaming channel, it'll be someone happily playing the game.

I think the disconnect here are that a lot of the channels linked here are not actually gaming channels. They're drama channels.
Remember the big rise of the makeup community "tea" drama channels? Congratulations, you watch makeup tier tea drama channels, just in relation to the same game over and over again. Don't know how any of you do it, not interested in finding out. If you love rehashed overly forced drama content about lalafell chairs and streamer arguments, then by all means, go ahead and watch that. but don't link it to me and try to tell me that I can't stand criticism about the game just because I refuse to give your desperate view and engagement farming drama lords a like, share, and subscribe. I'm not doing that. Not interested. I'm not watching it, go away. They're not going to say anything of any value to me. I don't need their dragged-out-for-more-ad-revenue-and-monetization validations of things that I likely already think to myself anyway. It's not useful to me. I can't apply anywhere. It's not a life skill, it doesnt make me any happier. I'm not enlightened, I've learned nothing new, it does nothing for my growth or soul nor does it even earn a smile, let alone a laugh. It's just useless drama peddling over ultimately, nothing of any actual serious importance. Take care.

I like to hear different thoughts and opinions from some of these youtubers.
Regardless if they say anything I like & Agree with, or if they say things I disagree with or even find dumb, its just their opinion.
Everybody on each side is allowed to have one and should voice it.

But I find it weird that anybody Attacks and Vilifies their Opinions, or Put them up on a Pedestal and Worship & Protects them like a K-Pop Idol.
Its just a Videogame, my goodness.

Any youtuber who uses that silly 'wwuuuttt' face in the video's thumbnail image because of Youtube's algorithm deserves to be mercilessly mocked.

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Originally Posted by Poporito_Popoto

Any youtuber who uses that silly 'wwuuuttt' face in the video's thumbnail image because of Youtube's algorithm deserves to be mercilessly mocked.

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I'm throwing my lot with this one.

people be angy if you say bad things about their comfort game.

when criticism began for EW over just stuff being generally sloppy, they were very aggressive to the point of it being concerning.

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Originally Posted by Kaliesto

I really don't understand it.

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It doesn't.

It's more people hate folks that are eternally negative of the game and post incessantly about it trying to use YouTube content creators, often ones they badmouthed in the past when said creators were positive about the game, to support their positions and speak for them, as well as presenting those opinions as authoritative. Basically: Appeal to authority fallacy.

They also like to use anyone not agreeing with said creators (or the negative posters) as "proof" of this fantasy they have that the FFXIV community is "toxic positive" to the point of rejecting any negativity...because the community doesn't appreciate terminal/perpetual negativity (which isn't unique to the community; Humans in general dislike spending time around people that are perpetually dour) nor does it appreciate attacks on the community/players. Mainly because no one likes being insulted and attacks on other players are not critiques of the game. Case in point:

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Originally Posted by Swordsman

The most important rule applies: If someone criticizes FFXIV, they will be hated.


Edit: This is not a good thing, and it happens way too much in this community.

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...it really doesn't.

That used to be fairly true, but I've personally found you can be critical of the game, but as long as you are so respectfully, people don't hate on you. It's more often people who are being negative and insulting who have this illusion you can't be critical at all. People like to use this "the community hates anyone who criticizes the game" as a fig leaf shield against people being critical of them personally being kind of jerks. That is, negative people who are also being jerks to others try to act like people hate them for being negative of the game, not for them being jerks.

The double irony is that here on this forum in particular, the negatives outweigh the positives. A negative post here will get dozens of upvotes and streams of reinforcing replies while a positive one is lucky to get double-digit likes and such posters are routinely attacked and dogpiled on by the negative posters who seem to prefer being negative to other players than they often are critical of the game itself.

Which will continue so long as the more moderate critical voices, the people who are negative towards the game but otherwise respectful, continue to support the negative toxic voices rather than point out when they're unfairly attacking others.

I don't really think it's a "hate" thing at large, but people who hate them unjustly will inevitably exist, as for most things. It's more the unnecessary chain of threads being made here with the videos instead of just lobbing it all into the first thread to keep it contained (even I find it unnecessary, frankly. I'd prefer if it was all contained into one thread). There's also the people who feel like we aren't forming our own opinion when we've had these concerns years longer than they have been vocal about.

There's the vocal users who "don't care" and it proceeds to derail the entire thread because not only does it actually serve no purpose for discussion, it feels like the content creators' concerns and feedback don't matter. Content creator or not, they are another player of the game, and content creators have far more influence and popularity than we do to take these concerns directly to YoshiP himself.

I watch MrHappy, I've kept up to date with this whole bit with Zepla despite not watching her otherwise because I feel like her concerns come with a genuine passion for wanting the game to be the best it can be, which happens to aligns with my concerns and my desire to see the game be better than it currently is, because it absolutely can be.

For me personally, I'm among those who had these concerns toward the game for much, much longer than they have been vocal about it for. While it was initially job design, now it's both job design and content longevity. Which are both valid concerns whether you want them to be or not.

I view their concerns as veteran players of the game, not as content creators, which is why I've been seen to bluntly retaliate at people who dismiss them unjustly regardless of how they feel about content creation. They have a more powerful voice than we do here, where it feels like we're shouting into the void.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

It doesn't.

It's more people hate folks that are eternally negative of the game and post incessantly about it trying to use YouTube content creators, often ones they badmouthed in the past when said creators were positive about the game, to support their positions and speak for them, as well as presenting those opinions as authoritative. Basically: Appeal to authority fallacy.

They also like to use anyone not agreeing with said creators (or the negative posters) as "proof" of this fantasy they have that the FFXIV community is "toxic positive" to the point of rejecting any negativity...because the community doesn't appreciate terminal/perpetual negativity (which isn't unique to the community; Humans in general dislike spending time around people that are perpetually dour) nor does it appreciate attacks on the community/players. Mainly because no one likes being insulted and attacks on other players are not critiques of the game. Case in point:



...it really doesn't.

That used to be fairly true, but I've personally found you can be critical of the game, but as long as you are so respectfully, people don't hate on you. It's more often people who are being negative and insulting who have this illusion you can't be critical at all. People like to use this "the community hates anyone who criticizes the game" as a fig leaf shield against people being critical of them personally being kind of jerks. That is, negative people who are also being jerks to others try to act like people hate them for being negative of the game, not for them being jerks.

The double irony is that here on this forum in particular, the negatives outweigh the positives. A negative post here will get dozens of upvotes and streams of reinforcing replies while a positive one is lucky to get double-digit likes and such posters are routinely attacked and dogpiled on by the negative posters who seem to prefer being negative to other players than they often are critical of the game itself.

Which will continue so long as the more moderate critical voices, the people who are negative towards the game but otherwise respectful, continue to support the negative toxic voices rather than point out when they're unfairly attacking others.

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This, children, is what we call gaslighting 101.

I don't hate them, but I do find the exaggerated reactions, the character playing and the costumes cringe as hell. It's nice when they take a break from the shilling to actually criticize the game for a good reason (meaning not useless glamour or housing whining)

I don't watch them often, because quite frankly, there is almost no interesting content generated from XIV. The game has been so formulaic and rigid for over 10 years that unless you're a hardcore fan the videos are unfunny and very boring to watch. Streams are even worse. Unless it's someone reacting to the MSQ for the first time, there's basically no entertainment value thanks to how unlikely you are to witness raids being handled differently, etc.
The last time a content creator made anything entertaining XIV related was back when Speakers of Hydaelin made lore content instead of their boring patch/discussion videos.

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

This, children, is what we call gaslighting 101.

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I thank you for your example of gaslighting... Oh, you meant the post you were responding to? Weird.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Because posting about them is an easy way for trolls to stir up controversy.

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This is the real answer, but I'll also explain why I don't like certain streamers for their critiques of any game, not just FFXIV:

Comparison is the thief of joy. When you're playing a new video game, you should approach it with an open mind, and accept the game as it's presented to you. When you judge a game based on how other games in the same genre are played, you do both games a disservice. Games, especially MMOs, are a competition for your time, but they need to be viewed and judged on their own merits rather than how the person attempting it wishes it was played instead.

I do not like YouTubers who approach a game their own audience has asked them to play with preconceived notions, and who deliberately play it poorly so they can say to their audience "see? This is why I said it sucked." And then they do a job skip because someone offered to pay for it, and try endgame, and they are terrible since they didn't have the 80 levels of tutorial everyone who leveled properly did.

On the other end of the scale, criticisms from a streamer like Zepla hit harder because we know she loved this game and gave it a fair chance for so long, and she needed a break after months of disillusionment and burnout.

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Originally Posted by Catwho

On the other end of the scale, criticisms from a streamer like Zepla hit harder because we know she loved this game and gave it a fair chance for so long, and she needed a break after months of disillusionment and burnout.

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Zepla also said she has played since 2015 and only needed a break now. That’s 8 years so that’s a great, outstanding run. How many games have you played for 8 years before needing a break? For me that number is zero.

So for me it didn’t hit hard at all. If anything I’m surprised she wasn’t bored sooner. But I guess making money off XIV can extend one’s interest in the game.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

I thank you for your example of gaslighting... Oh, you meant the post you were responding to? Weird.

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Cute uno reverse attempt but this isn’t it champ thanks for playing

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Originally Posted by Catwho

Comparison is the thief of joy. When you're playing a new video game, you should approach it with an open mind, and accept the game as it's presented to you.

I do not like YouTubers who approach a game their own audience has asked them to play with preconceived notions, and who deliberately play it poorly so they can say to their audience "see? This is why I said it sucked." And then they do a job skip because someone offered to pay for it, and try endgame, and they are terrible since they didn't have the 80 levels of tutorial everyone who leveled properly did.

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I don't remember the name of said streamer but I remember when it happened; while I agree getting stomped by raid he was completely unprepared for was well deserved, let's not pretend the game does a very good job of teaching you how to play or even gear for that matter, 80 levels means nothing in the long run.

Also, the same can be said for people who ask their streamers to play the game for story, they expect reactions to parts of the story a certain way so they can relish and agree with them live(parasocial relationships are weird.)

I don't watch XIV content anymore, the only thing I did watch prior were mizzteq guides to dungeons when first starting out in ARR. I did watch Zepla's video out of pure curiosity because of the threads posted here and besides the nauseating amount of positivity she had to sprinkle in before each criticism, she spoke like a disgruntled consumer who wants the game to change for the better. She has a platform and I'm glad she's using it to speak out, it might not even reach the devs but at least there was an attempt.

Most of them do not even know what it mean to cover a game and end up being their self pompous thinking they know everything about the game and then expecting their views on the game is the only view on it.

Most of them is Clowns with a Mic and a Webcam, be it streamers or youtubers or both in one.

I still like playing the game and I got close to 23500 hours clocked on it.

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Originally Posted by Cyanamists

I don't remember the name of said streamer but I remember when it happened; while I agree getting stomped by raid he was completely unprepared for was well deserved, let's not pretend the game does a very good job of teaching you how to play or even gear for that matter, 80 levels means nothing in the long run.

Also, the same can be said for people who ask their streamers to play the game for story, they expect reactions to parts of the story a certain way so they can relish and agree with them live(parasocial relationships are weird.)

I don't watch XIV content anymore, the only thing I did watch prior were mizzteq guides to dungeons when first starting out in ARR. I did watch Zepla's video out of pure curiosity because of the threads posted here and besides the nauseating amount of positivity she had to sprinkle in before each criticism, she spoke like a disgruntled consumer who wants the game to change for the better. She has a platform and I'm glad she's using it to speak out, it might not even reach the devs but at least there was an attempt.

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You’re likely thinking of quin. It was very apparent he had no intention to attempt to play the game in good faith and was just hopping on the XIV bandwagon during the wow exodus.

He’s a streamer known for raging and over dramatic childish behavior so it was kind of expected.

Hate is a strong word, but most people know many XIV social media figures are wined and dined.....
https://sportshub.cbsistatic.com/i/2...20122-ctrl.png

The real reason is that it's just someone parroting someone else's opinion. Youtubers are just people; their opinions aren't any more or less valid than anyone here. So it's weird when someone shares a youtuber's opinion as if it's more important than what's already being discussed here.

That being said, I do enjoy watching these Youtubers and hearing what they have to say. It's just that everyone should remember that they aren't a spokesperson or anything. They're just normal people with opinions that may be good or bad.

The forum doesn't hate youtubers but shallow criticism. You can see Xenosys for example, he always criticized some tank mechs, alliance raid low ilvl, etc...and he is barely mentioned here even if he get more views than Zepla nowadays.

The problem is that we have too much 'content creators' surrounded by drama and feeding on it like MrHappy, Rin and Pyromancer.

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Originally Posted by Themarvin

Most of them do not even know what it mean to cover a game and end up being their self pompous thinking they know everything about the game and then expecting their views on the game is the only view on it.

Most of them is Clowns with a Mic and a Webcam, be it streamers or youtubers or both in one.

I still like playing the game and I got close to 23500 hours clocked on it.

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Zepla hate is alive and well, I see !

Cuz we're the worst.

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Originally Posted by Themarvin

Most of them do not even know what it mean to cover a game and end up being their self pompous thinking they know everything about the game and then expecting their views on the game is the only view on it.

Most of them is Clowns with a Mic and a Webcam, be it streamers or youtubers or both in one.

I still like playing the game and I got close to 23500 hours clocked on it.

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Oh look, one of the people that consistently attempt to invalidate their feedback as veteran players of the game and forever missing the point.

You calling them clowns then saying their voice means nothing because they make content is nothing short of ironic.

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Originally Posted by Zairava

Oh look, one of the people that consistently attempt to invalidate their feedback as veteran players of the game and forever missing the point.

You calling them clowns then saying their voice means nothing because they make content is nothing short of ironic.

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They barely touched the game for the most part, I don't hate the person behind the character... I hate the character the person(s) is attempting to be, you need to look behind the curtains, and most of all discovering the worlds oldest profession.

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Originally Posted by Themarvin

... the worlds oldest profession.

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gardener?!

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

Cute uno reverse attempt but this isn’t it champ thanks for playing

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No, he's actually right.

Your reply to me was gaslighting. So you know, it's possible for you to be doing a thing that you accuse others of. It's actually very very common. People try to use "herp derp uno reverse" as a defense to allow them to do the very things they condemn, but it's not actually a defense at all.

The worst part is, what I did wasn't even gaslighting:

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Gaslighting is a form of psychological abuse in which a person or group causes someone to question their own sanity, memories, or perception of reality. People who experience gaslighting may feel confused, anxious, or as though they cannot trust themselves.

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Source: https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/art...hting-examples

Technically, neither of us directly engaged in gaslighting, though what you did is similar to the Diverting case, so much closer than what I did, which was presenting an actual argument based on reality.

.

EDIT:

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Originally Posted by Noumenon

k

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Appeal to ridicule fallacy.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

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khttp://10char.png

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Originally Posted by Renathras

No, he's actually right.

Your reply to me was gaslighting. So you know, it's possible for you to be doing a thing that you accuse others of. It's actually very very common. People try to use "herp derp uno reverse" as a defense to allow them to do the very things they condemn, but it's not actually a defense at all.

The worst part is, what I did wasn't even gaslighting:



Source: https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/art...hting-examples

Technically, neither of us directly engaged in gaslighting, though what you did is similar to the Diverting case, so much closer than what I did, which was presenting an actual argument based on reality.

.

EDIT:



Appeal to ridicule fallacy.

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Honestly there are so many misuses of the word "gaslighting" in these forums that it's just not worth the effort pointing it out. However, once it is used, even incorrectly, it will get some clapping seals to go along with it lol.

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Originally Posted by Noumenon

khttp://10char.png

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This is cringe

I don't hate them I just don't pay attention to them. someone said this awhile back and I can remember who but most of the ffxiv content creators or at least the major ones, basically do the exact same thing or at least the bare minimum of it. I mean, if each had a script and they exchanged them with each other I doubt any of us would notice a difference.

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Originally Posted by Bonoki

This is cringe

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Engaging with ren with any degree of seriousness is cringe

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Originally Posted by Kaliesto

I really don't understand it.

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Because youtubers and streamers are a blight upon every gaming community, feeding on drama especially with others of their kind. Which wouldn't be that bad if they wouldn't turn every community into a toxic battlefield where their simps wage war in the name of their idols crude opinions.

And for what? Money. It's always money obviously. Which gives them a certain pressure to perform so we get abominations of thumbnails and they create fake drama so they stay just a bit longer afloat. Cause if they stop to be the clown, what is really left of them then?

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Originally Posted by Ranaku

Because youtubers and streamers are a blight upon every gaming community, feeding on drama especially with others of their kind. Which wouldn't be that bad if they wouldn't turn every community into a toxic battlefield where their simps wage war in the name of their idols crude opinions.

And for what? Money. It's always money obviously. Which gives them a certain pressure to perform so we get abominations of thumbnails and they create fake drama so they stay just a bit longer afloat. Cause if they stop to be the clown, what is really left of them then?

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Funny enough, gaming itself has slowly become a blight on the genre in general. Its not just youtubers and streamers.

Back in the old times we didnt have such easy access to social media and online communities to be toxic or annoying. Back then, you only had word of mouth in school or that circle of friends you shared small bit of game stuff from magazines and such and it was honestly a lot more healthier than how its handled today imo.

Games are taken so seriously now

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Funny enough, gaming itself has slowly become a blight on the genre in general. Its not just youtubers and streamers.

Back in the old times we didnt have such easy access to social media and online communities to be toxic or annoying. Back then, you only had word of mouth in school or that circle of friends you shared small bit of game stuff from magazines and such and it was honestly a lot more healthier than how its handled today imo.

Games are taken so seriously now

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I mean we saw that with the latest starfield controversy about pronouns where both parties just used the drama to push their agenda. Instead of just letting a game be a game.

Back then we just enjoyed a good game for being a good game and not cause of some political implications no matter if left or right. But thanks to the internet we have now this unified stupidity.

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

Engaging with ren with any degree of seriousness is cringe

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I know he isn't a likable person around here (and for good reason), but editing what he said in a quote is the lowest form of a mock ever. It's petty highschool level behavior. I rather talk to Ren than someone that does whatever Noumeon was doing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bonoki

I know he isn't a likable person around here (and for good reason), but editing what he said in a quote is the lowest form of a mock ever. It's petty highschool level behavior. I rather talk to Ren than someone that does whatever Noumeon was doing.

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But what constitutes a 'likeable person'?

I don't dislike Ren at all and I'd rather read his posts over anti-Endwalker thread #290

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

But what constitutes a 'likeable person'?

I don't dislike Ren at all and I'd rather read his posts over anti-Endwalker thread #290

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Apparently "will sometimes/often disagree with me and is willing to write long posts" is unlikeable? For me, if someone isn't actively malicious/doesn't refuse to have a real discussion, that's my line for likeable, or at least tolerable on forums.

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

Apparently "will sometimes/often disagree with me and is willing to write long posts" is unlikeable? For me, if someone isn't actively malicious/doesn't refuse to have a real discussion, that's my line for likeable, or at least tolerable on forums.

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Ren has a tendency to frustrate people, and not everyone seems to deal with that frustration in a reasonable way. Personally, I think it would be best for all parties involved if the frustrated folks would just stop interacting with him. I've mostly avoided interacting with him directly after seeing how he approached arguments with other people in other threads.

As for reasons, well.. Ren like to argue past people; That is to say, sometimes he doesn't actually seem to read or understand the thing he's replying to, and will just continue to make arguments and points that don't really make any sense in the greater context of how the conversation has progressed. He resorts to bad-faith tactics a lot, because he tends to take positions that are very difficult to defend otherwise. This by itself is not by any means uncommon on these forums, but he often pairs it up with accusations of his opposition doing the very the thing he himself is actually doing.

Again, people should really just leave the dude alone. Nothing productive will come from the constant back and forth.