If leveling is a grind fest then I'd rather them leave it out of the game.
If they can make leveling fun then they should make it fun long lasting content. As it stands, leveling is inbetween.
Character Growth: Leveling is part of RPGs
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07-03-2012, 05:21 AMIngolf
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07-03-2012, 05:28 AMJeronlmo
Going to repeat this same thing again, because people keep repeating the dumb poll.
Kinda late in this thread i guess, it was the first responce, but they linked this http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/46535 .
But if you would read down just a bit... like the next few lines of text.
"50% of you thought the pace of leveling was just about right, while 20% felt it was too fast. And then there was the 10% who had more to say on the matter.
For most MMOs, you might expect around 60-70% of players to respond with “too slow”, but as the current leveling speed for FFXIV is intentionally set at a higher pace, I’m fairly satisfied with these results."
If nothing else, he admits its set at a higher pace than normal. -
07-03-2012, 05:52 AMPnight= Loves Instant GratificationQuote:
Originally Posted by Churchill
Exclude waiting time and ffxi had perfect leveling speed xp/hr. I'm not so opposed to the leveling speed in ffxiv. Perfect leveling speed for me would be around 4-6 weeks consistent play 3-4 hrs per day. My biggest problem with ffxiv leveling is the style, it's ugly, sloppy, lazy and boring. I much prefer 1 mob which needs attention and skill to kill (if that means more xp/mob fine), not attack 15 mobs half asleep... swing once.. blm nuke.. grab 15 more mob style. -
07-03-2012, 05:55 AMFelis
The main problem are the levels 40-50. If SE can reduce the exp you can earn in this levels or increase the exp you need to level up, it would be ok. The last 10 levels should always be longer than the first 20 levels, not the other way.
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07-03-2012, 06:02 AMSeif
People only complain the length when it's delivered in a boring way.
You don't hear people complaining about the length of Xenoblades Chronicles for example.
You can never have enough of a good thing and the only problem now is that the actions we're doing in the game just aren't that fun.
I for one want to be able to progress in this game for years to come but at the same time I understand why people are complaining about this. Cutting the game shorter doesn't make it better. I'd rather see them addressing the problem with a better battle system more story content actually a LOT more and better made story content in all areas of the game.
Long story short. Don't stop working on the game and don't think cutting it shorter will distract from the fact that these people just don't care for a massive portion of your current product. -
07-03-2012, 06:43 AMHyristOther way around. Majority of poll voters were not forum members. So it may very well be the majority in both cases. Difficult to tell as SE did not release total game population numbers nor total poll numbers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soukyuu
I'd like to agree, but experience has lead me to believe that this is more a mannism of a minority who cannot bear having their opinions regulated to a single thread. They want attention on the issue even though their point of view could be seen as damaging to the majority.Quote:
The thread-locking didn't have much to do with the topic but with the attitude of several people unable to handle others expressing a different opinion in a calm and objective way.
To keep in mind yes. But the root problem, as I stated before, isn't leveling. Leveling itself is merely a transition, and the slower it is without substantial content to support it, the worse of an experience it is. Thus a grind.Quote:
I agree. It still is a point worth keeping in mind though.
But what people who are pro-slower leveling are neglecting one major problem, development wise, with their argument.
There is a catch-22 problem involved with creating low-level content. I'll help analyze this now so people can understand that's going on.
There are two major types of of low level content. Repeatable and Non-repeatable.
Repeatable low-level content, suffers two primary problems that cannot easily be addressed without worsening one the other. The first is the feeling of grind. Any repeated action will eventually be boring, so the longer you use the content, the less it feels worth.
Secondary and contary to this is dead content. Once you outlevel the range, that content loses play use. Compare to creating an endgame dungeon which can be designed for long term goals, repatable leveling quest end up having no long-term use or goals for them. Only way to counter that is to make difficulty scaling for levels, which in turn makes it more of a grind.
Idealy, scaling content that has different goals, monster placement, and loot could counter both of these issues, and SE has stated that this will actually happen in their dungeons ('Normal' vs 'Hardmode' runs.)
The other type of Quest, Non-Repeatable, have to have worthwhile goals to be attractive in the immediate term, such as good gear yeild, decent story, exp rewards, etc. You really can't do that without speeding up the process of leveling we already have - and the same thing with doing worthwhile repeatables.
Leveling is going to speed up not because of a lack of content, but rather because content, and therefore rewards, are going to be more plentiful. You will be doing more, and therefore be getting more back for it. The only way to counteract this is to increase the curve, which would be pointless when the level cap goes up anyways, as that will already extend the curve exponentially.
They want players to level multiple jobs and classes. In order to do this, they're expediting the process of leveling by meeting our other requests for more content.
While I am not in agreement with the potential consequence of loss of character and player identity by over-encouragement of multiple leveled jobs. I do see the purpose for it. It's just my hope that in the release of new jobs, players can settle into an individual character identity while still being variable in the types of roles they can fill - but that is another discussion entirely.
To summarize - players wanted more low level content. So they're more one-off quests and storylines to accompany that.
They also want to get people involved in dungeons early adn throughout, but not done at the waste of created content. So they created tiered difficulty instances and dungeons.
The consequence of this is more content to level with, and as a result, faster leveling all around as there are multiple sources to level from that are impossible to tone down without making one of these elements not worthwhile to do on their own.
Therefore, leveling will be faster, but we're likely not going to care as content will carry us up, rather than flat out grinding. What will matter instead is that there is enough endgame content to sustain the playerbase at the end of the level rise. Which, between Legatus, Dungeons, Primal Fights, Primal Hunts, Relic Weapons and PVP, I'd say they've got a good starting point for 2.0.
People are going to still argue, however, as they view portions of this game in isolation from each other, with little to no information to go on. The augments will change once everyone is in the beta. -
07-03-2012, 06:51 AMAceofspades
Agreed. Not too sure if XI was bareable because of content between LVLing or if it was the action of LVLing itself. Pretty sure it was the action of LVLing tbh. When it takes, on avg., a week for somone to get from 10-20 , hitting 20 was kinda a mile stone , not to mention the actual mile stones in the game, for instance, traveling to Jueno for the first time on your own with no choco, getting your choco in jueno, getting your airship pass to lvl past 35, ect , ect. Fact is there was more to celibrate in XI BECAUSE it was 10x more difficult. Maybe its a new generation of gamer, or just a layzier version of the same generation. honestly I dont know and dont care. Cant blame SE for accomidating these gamers as they bring in the money that keeps the game going , but certainly there is a way to balance out casual content and endgame content, Used to be that the LVLs were the great dividers and casual gamers accepted the fact that they would not see endgame content untill they achived such lvls. Just pray that Yoshi P realizes that his hard core gamers need ensentives to stay , making all the content easly atainable simply becuase of :: on the forums is not a good reason to do so. If you want endgame content and you are a casual gamer, would certainly be a hoo of you to understand that said content shouldnt just be handed to you with a weekends worth of work, or grind or questing. You should be forced to earn it as should anyone who decideds they want endgame content. This of course is my own opinion in wich I am sure somone dis agrees.
Look at the alternative, it either that or use "endgame content" in a recycled fasion that just eventually blands said content to the point of being unintersing alltogether. -
07-03-2012, 07:22 AMHyrist
It's not so much about cutting the game shorter as it is about extending the game in the right places. The leveling process is great for single players as it progresses with the story. MMO's just don't work that way. You play through the story and it ends, and then you either have to spread out the story to the point where you're only getting chunks of it between grinding (FFXI was a grind. If you loved it, fine, but it was masochistic for many, especially those who wanted to play their own way or with their friends who may not have played the most popular jobs. Seriously, trying getting a RDM and WHM together in a party past CoP era.)
This era of gaming cannot be sustained by prolonging the content. You've got to fill in the gaps. If you do fill in the gaps, leveling is going to be comparatively faster.
Right now, Leves were the primary source of leveling, you add a good number of quests and storyline quests to that and of course your leveling pace is going to go up. The point is making content that supports it throughout.
The biggest crux of the matter is top-heavy populations. The slower you make leveling, the more that becomes a problem. Suddenly you are either being handheld through party content by your high level friends or you're stuck feeing alone grinding up to get the levels you need to play at endgame with the rest of your buddies.
There's simply no reason to go back and help as the rewards won't assist endgame goals at all, and any loot drops lose effectiveness as you level anyways. So, better to have a richer endgame and an expedient path to it. Plenty of other ways of getting your grind-feels, and plenty of jobs to level to get your feeling of long term progression.
Leveling one class too slow for you? Go for your Paragon's crown. Or go level a craft or 3 to 50, believe me, you won't be complaining about leveling too fast once you step out of the bubble of combat classes. -
07-03-2012, 07:28 AMdarkstarpoet1i have every class capped and have since november or somewhere around there and i say leveling is wayyyyyyy too fast. i guess you were wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
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07-03-2012, 07:52 AMChurchillI never accomplished anything in XI, it was too hard for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pnight
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07-03-2012, 11:49 AMFallenRaine9yrs of playing ffxi and i never got gear either lmao. my first 75 and main was Pld and when I'd get into a Ls they would have a main tank that gets all the gear. even being backup tank i wouldn't get gear because someone who never came to events on Pld would be nxt in line or some bs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Churchill
And this happened to me in several linkshells over the years til i gave up on pld about a year b4 abyssea came out and got Blu to 75(when ppl didnt wanna pt with them still Refresh problem) and couldnt use it in endgame hardly either.the job lock on that game was ridiculous. if you didn't have a certain job lvled you were getting the short end of the stick.
Yea my pld was in demand,of course... but to be made to main tank dynamis week after week after week.and to kite in sky..only to watch a friggin MONK get first dibs on pld gloves just so he can complete a gear set on a job he never used for the LS and no one knew he had. something i could have used to keep main tanking for them lol so lame...maybe thats why everything is RNG in this game because the point system LS would set up for gear drops in ffxi was unfair at times. -
07-03-2012, 11:53 AMIngolf
Abyssea completely changed XI for the better in regards to casual players. It isn't instant gratification, but you can log on for 30 minutes and work on something and actually make progress.
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07-03-2012, 11:57 AMFallenRaineyea pretty much i quit like 3 months after it came out but i might go back for my Blu just to much fun.only got 1 piece of af3+1 lmaoQuote:
Originally Posted by Ingolf
I don't see the problem with slow lvling it took me like a year to get my first 75(pld) between school and work. And i didn't feel to far behind maybe just gear wise. -
07-03-2012, 04:50 PMDuelleGear was one of several problems FFXI had. Itemization was pretty terrible between rare drops with stats, and a ton of gear with either worthless stats (elemental resisatances come to mind) or no stats at all. The CoP crafter sets pretty much shows how stupid their approach was; stuff like Luisant and Trader's sets having no stats NQ and good stats HQ are pretty much the epitome of alpha/omega itemization.Quote:
Originally Posted by FallenRaine
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07-03-2012, 06:01 PMJeronlmo
This "actual" progression of which you speak, is what made 11 beatable. Abyssea is a joke, i solo'ed my ninja empy in like... 10 days or something, literally solo'ed nin/dnc. Then shortly after did about 60% of my whm empy before I asked myself "why and I playing this if I can solo the best weapon in the game".
People like/love to say its not asking for things being handed to you, and I guess you will never understand, that it is. -
07-03-2012, 09:25 PMFallenRainei would be in pld af in endgame and one Ls leader told me that i was wearing exp gear... i was like yea... why do you think i joined your Ls?Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
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07-04-2012, 02:43 AMJudge_XeroBalancing is pretty good IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Enma
1) Casuals can actually get 1 lvl 50 in a decent amount of time
2) Hardcore can get all 50's in a reasonable amount of time.
For casuals: grabbing all Sidequests in each of the cities and then completing them while you do leves is a great and fun way to level a class. The sidequests are both funny and compelling IMO.
Lots of hardcore players have for a while. Botters were even faster.Quote:
Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1
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07-04-2012, 03:07 AMSoukyuuI feel like we're talking at cross-purposes here (is that how you say it in English? lol).Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
The majority from the poll wants the speed to stay the same as in 1.x, the minority wants it to be faster than in 1.x. YoshiP making it sound like the leveling will be faster in 2.0 means the majority wants it to be slower in 2.0 (=same as it is now) and the minority wanting it to be faster than now.
I agree with what you are saying, and with the recent clarification that "reaching lvl50 in short time" doesn't mean it's going to be as fast as people might think (see Rein's translation thread), I think we can rest assured it won't really be much faster than it is now, if at all. Or maybe it will just seem faster with less grinding on mobs and more questing.Quote:
To keep in mind yes. But the root problem, as I stated before, isn't leveling. Leveling itself is merely a transition, and the slower it is without substantial content to support it, the worse of an experience it is. Thus a grind.
But what people who are pro-slower leveling are neglecting one major problem, development wise, with their argument.
<snip>
To summarize - players wanted more low level content. So they're more one-off quests and storylines to accompany that.
They also want to get people involved in dungeons early adn throughout, but not done at the waste of created content. So they created tiered difficulty instances and dungeons.
The consequence of this is more content to level with, and as a result, faster leveling all around as there are multiple sources to level from that are impossible to tone down without making one of these elements not worthwhile to do on their own.
If that's the case, I hope they won't go the way Tera and some other recent MMOs are doing it, by making you move to the next area once all quests are completed, leaving half the world deserted as time goes by, with quest largerly consisting of "kill x mobs" or "go to y, kill x, bring back z"