No exploratory content

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Originally Posted by Ransu

You literally only ever complain about this game and never have any valid criticism. You are no better than the Titan trolls.

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Perhaps you should stop harassing people?

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Talera? I made much the same comments in this thread

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...87#post6305787

...and was roundly shouted down.

Funny how you say the same thing I did , yet we aint seeing the same responses.

Odd. Innit?




Thats nice. Now tell us what the player numbers are on other datacentres.

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I think part of that might be that while I do agree with you on points often, your presentation is rather vehement and confrontational. That can put people off.

For others mentioning that there are Discords for BA and DRS, that's part of the issue. The developers aren't in charge of Discords. But for some of this content, it's in third party applications where participation in the content is organized. There isn't a lot of in-game design providing accessibility. Whereas there is more of that with Variant. Maybe they need to boost the Echo more in Eureka and and Bozja, or possibly put in some daily missions. And give some better in-game tools for organizing people for things like BA and DRS. Those would help the current situation or can be things to look at for future exploratory content.

Also Supersnow, what is your gauge of peak time? I'm also on Aether and Eureka when I was going in there recently in NA prime time most zones had at most 30 people. Pagos could go up higher if it was time for Cassie. Pyros I think is a bad example because it seems to have a really bad bot infestation. Fully half of the zone of people would just be bots waiting at the bunny FATEs. And it often wasn't the easiest thing to get a group for FATEs past Anemos so you could get the necessary credit because many were often only premades going into together or they broke up after one or two NMs.

I haven't been in Bozja too much but from what I could see in NA prime time it had less people than Eureka. I was doing FATEs in Zadnor by myself (or trying) and when I went to help a friend try to do CLL for his relic there were only 5 people signed up. Hopefully they reconsider the in-instance CEs for any future exploratory content.

Or we may get something entirely new from both exploratory and Variant that fixes the drawbacks with both.

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Originally Posted by Fortecael

This must be the worst cope I've ever seen...

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I mean, I think he's correction that the RESOURCES that would have gone to Exploration Zones were instead consumed on IS and V&C. Obviously neither one scratches the same itch (V&C isn't drop-in/out content and has limited exploration and story which are all self-contained and not continuous across them; IS has no combat and no shared progress with other players), so they aren't an adequate substitute. But if he just means Dev resources, he's probably right.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Ngl, despite that many people cry 'they're troll(s)!!', these 'trolls' actually instigated many discussion nowadays than real people lol.

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I think that may be more due to them just posting such a high volume of threads (during the height of Fanfest, the front page was full of majority posts started by the usual suspects; they just started so many threads that SOME of them generated discussion, but they were also drowning out other people's threads trying to start discussion, so it's a mixed bag...)

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

Yoshida has disclosed in a Famitsu interview that they are planning a new type of battle content (probably) for 7.X, as well as stating that the next iteration of exploratory content is being discussed.

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Yeah, I'd really like to see an official translation of this, just to make sure the words are saying what people are thinking they're saying. Trust but verify and all that.

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

Those on the forums who are tripping themselves defending V&C might want to look at the Famitsu interview, because it looks like Yoshida would disagree with you that the game is "fine as-is". He wants to improve it (as us naysayers do), much to your chagrin.

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There are two classes of people who make negative posts about the game.

One is people who genuinely still like the game and don't hate it, who raise valid points and offer criticism of the game with idea and suggestions for improvements, who don't attack other people who enjoy the game as it is, and so on.

The other is people who lash out at the game, flailing for anything to say negative about it, constantly badmouth it, and attack anyone who doesn't share their disdain for it, often while encouraging people to quit or permanently leave it to play other MMOs (as opposed to taking a break), and are more critical of other posters who aren't negative like they are than even of the game.

If you're in the first camp, you're fine. Just don't move into the second camp.

Yoshi P is saying he wants to improve it, not that he thinks it is currently garbage and should be shut down. That's a wide gulf.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

There are two classes of people who make negative posts about the game.

One is people who genuinely still like the game and don't hate it, who raise valid points and offer criticism of the game with idea and suggestions for improvements, who don't attack other people who enjoy the game as it is, and so on.

The other is people who lash out at the game, flailing for anything to say negative about it, constantly badmouth it, and attack anyone who doesn't share their disdain for it, often while encouraging people to quit or permanently leave it to play other MMOs (as opposed to taking a break), and are more critical of other posters who aren't negative like they are than even of the game.

If you're in the first camp, you're fine. Just don't move into the second camp.

Yoshi P is saying he wants to improve it, not that he thinks it is currently garbage and should be shut down. That's a wide gulf.

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"There are two classes of people who make negative posts about the game.

The people I agree with.

And the people I disagree with.

If you're in the first camp, you're fine. Just don't move into the second camp."

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

I think part of that might be that while I do agree with you on points often, your presentation is rather vehement and confrontational.

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https://media.tenor.com/7IQjJTKejV0AAAAC/okay-ok.gif

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

I remember that exact same excuse after Endwalker fanfest.

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Difference being that all three Endwalker Fan Fests had to be merged into one single digital Fan Fest, due to covid-19 restrictions.

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

Those on the forums who are tripping themselves defending V&C might want to look at the Famitsu interview, because it looks like Yoshida would disagree with you that the game is "fine as-is". He wants to improve it (as us naysayers do), much to your chagrin.

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He says that all the time, when has he actually done it? Like 33% success rate at best

And let's be honest, the vision and the budget are the biggest issues facing FF14 right now. Not individual problems with content. The entire formula is aging and cannot compete with modern 2023 games. Even these "yeah there are problems with variant" conversations are a distraction from the real issue: they treat this game as a milking factory and their vision consists of Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V'ing every expansion.

There's WoW shaking up the formula every expansion and missing the mark 80% of the time, and then there's FF14 calcifying itself around the sacred formula slowly petrifying.

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Originally Posted by Koros

There's WoW shaking up the formula every expansion and missing the mark 80% of the time, and then there's FF14 calcifying itself around the sacred formula slowly petrifying.

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The sad thing with WoW's missing the mark, too, is that the miss is often just some relatively fine detail or arbitrary restriction, such that the errant new system is actually totally fine... (only) by the last third of the expansion's lifespan.

A reward-balance tweak there and the removal of a bad rule here and voila, it's actually pretty darn good. And yet stubbornness there, too, often keeps that from happening until they've already lost a ton of players again.

I wish XIV's issues were so often so simple.

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

"There are two classes of people who make negative posts about the game.

The people I agree with.

And the people I disagree with.

If you're in the first camp, you're fine. Just don't move into the second camp."

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Oh hey, you again. I guess you're done agreeing with me on topics (I think you agreed with me on two) and are back to the trolling.

I don't agree with all the people that make respectful and well argued critiques while not attacking other players. I still see them as a good thing and doing it right.

There's no way to agree with someone who is being a jerk and not making any arguments, instead just lashing out at people and insulting people.

So no, it's not a matter of agreement or disagreement. I've seen some valid complaints and even upvoted people who I disagreed with but who were being respectful and making good arguments. From time to time, really good arguments about problems can change my mind on them, too.

In short:

Stop trolling.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Oh hey, you again. I guess you're done agreeing with me on topics (I think you agreed with me on two) and are back to the trolling.

I don't agree with all the people that make respectful and well argued critiques while not attacking other players. I still see them as a good thing and doing it right.

There's no way to agree with someone who is being a jerk and not making any arguments, instead just lashing out at people and insulting people.

So no, it's not a matter of agreement or disagreement. I've seen some valid complaints and even upvoted people who I disagreed with but who were being respectful and making good arguments. From time to time, really good arguments about problems can change my mind on them, too.

In short:

Stop trolling.

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"you agreed with me in 2 threads so I liked you, now you stopped agreeing so you're a troll"

Rerathros’s definition of “echo chamber” at this point is “the person didn’t agree with me so they are in the echo chamber and I’m enlightened”

Awesome you are probably the only person who regularly posts in these discussions whos “side” I’ve never been able to figure out, i don’t really care my opinions are my own and I’m don’t do them to fit into a side (contrary to what renrathos thinks I do) but it’s interesting you are the only person I can’t figure out what your actual stance is

Thanks for the edit that makes sense

Wait, didn't Yoshi-P recently say in an interview that the dev team were discussing the possibility of adding an Exploratory Zone for Dawntrail? As for the 'lifestyle content' they were talking about, I could absolutely see it being an instanced 'house' of sorts, just to permanently nix the housing issue.

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Originally Posted by ElysiumDragon

Wait, didn't Yoshi-P recently say in an interview that the dev team were discussing the possibility of adding an Exploratory Zone for Dawntrail?

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The last I can think of was the July 7th one with Famitsu, which then said they'd say more in the upcoming Live Letter (since passed)... after which I then heard no one here discussing any mention of further Exploratory Mission stuff?

For the full interview.

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Originally Posted by Yoshida Naoki (Famitsu July 2023 Interview)

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ヴァリアントダンジョンおよびアナザーダンジョンに続き、今後も新たな4人用エンドコンテンツの開発計画はありますか？　これまでのところ、どういったフィードバックがありましたか？　また、こういったコンテンツの実装を受け、今後は72人用の新しいコンテンツはないと考えてもよろしいでしょうか？

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ヴァリアントダンジョン、アナザーダンジョンのシステムの完成度がすごく高いので、まずはこのシリーズで4人用のエンドコンテンツを作っていきます。もちろん、フィードバックをいただいたものをどんどん反映して、カジュアルに、かつエキサイティングなコンテンツにパワーアップさせていきたいと思っていますが、しばらく4人用のエンドコンテンツは、ヴァリアントダンジョン、アナザーダンジョンシリーズを続けていく予定です。

ただ、これまでにないタイプのまったく新しいバトルコンテンツも、いま企画を出し合っている最中です。そして"南方ボズヤ戦線"や"禁断の地エウレカ"のような、エリア全体を使った大規模な遊びも、次のシリーズをどうしようという話し合いはしていて、また新しいチャレンジをするつもりです。ヴァリアントダンジョンに関しては、明日（日本時間で7月30日、ファンフェスティバル2日目）のプロデューサーレターLIVEをお楽しみにしていただけると！

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Rough Translation:

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Originally Posted by Yoshi-P

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Following the Variant and Criterion Dungeon, do you have any plans to develop new four-player endgame content in the future? What kind of feedback on such have you received so far? Also, with the implementation of this more Variant/Criterion/4-man content, is it safe to assume that there will be no 72-man (large-scale / Exploratory Mission] content in the future?

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We feel that Variant and Criterion dungeons are pretty well complete as systems, so we want to go ahead and first create more endgame content within that type. Of course, we want to progressively reflect more on feedback and improve that content to be more casually accessible and exciting, but for the time being we plan to continue providing Variant/Criterion dungeons for that 4-man endgame content.

However, we are currently in the process of finalizing a never-before-seen type of new type of battle content that has never been seen before. As for large-scale games that use the entire area, such as "Bozjan Southern Front" and "The Forbidden Land, Eureka", we are discussing what to do with the next iteration in that series, and we plan to take on new challenges. As for Variant Dungeons, please look forward to the Producer's Letter LIVE tomorrow (July 7th in Japan hours, the second day of the fan festival)!

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

The last I can think of was the July 7th one with Famitsu, which then said they'd say more in the upcoming Live Letter (since passed)... after which I then heard no one here discussing any mention of further Exploratory Mission stuff?

For the full interview.


Rough Translation:

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To be fair, Eureka was too grindy and Bozja didn't have a sufficient reward system to encourage long-term play. If they've learned from both of them, then a Tural-themed Exploratory Zone would be a wonderful idea.

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Originally Posted by ElysiumDragon

To be fair, Eureka was too grindy and Bozja didn't have a sufficient reward system to encourage long-term play. If they've learned from both of them, then a Tural-themed Exploratory Zone would be a wonderful idea.

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Eureka was too grindy……If this is the only MMO youve ever played

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Eureka was too grindy……If this is the only MMO youve ever played

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That's what ive been saying lol. And there's way griendier and more BORING activities (looking at you achievements) that no one calls out.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Eureka was too grindy……If this is the only MMO youve ever played

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I said this in another thread, and I think it's relevant here so I'll just drop a quote of myself.

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

Bozja and Eureka were designed for people who love MMOs, the Manderville relics were designed for people who hate MMOs.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Eureka was too grindy……If this is the only MMO youve ever played

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I enjoyed Eureka, but... it would almost certainly have had greater community engagement and had been more enjoyable to the average player if the EXP requirements for leveling up were lower, leaving that grind instead to the horizontal progression of Relics instead of something that'd more inflexibly split apart its players across a given zone.

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Originally Posted by Minarisweet

That's what ive been saying lol. And there's way griendier and more BORING activities (looking at you achievements) that no one calls out.

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They're not each being called out because they've only collectively --not individually-- had the kind of impact or reward-access that Exploratory Missions have had and because we're literally in a thread about Exploratory Missions.

In a thread about Exploratory Missions, you can expect Exploratory Missions to get a larger share of the discourse even if other content forms were just as good/bad/neutral in regard to a given criteria.

Moreover, a critique doesn't stop being valid just because it doesn't include every other item that might also meet its description.

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

Bozja and Eureka were designed for people who love MMOs, the Manderville relics were designed for people who hate MMOs.

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That would imply that the only (respectable) enjoyment one can get out of MMOs to large-zone mob- and FATE grinds...

I like both, in the right contexts, but liking other parts of the MMO experience more than that aspect in particular doesn't mean that one doesn't like/love MMOs, let alone that they hate them.

__________

Again, I like Exploratory Missions. I certainly think they're a more fitting, efficient, and lucrative content form than the likes of Variant/Criterion Dungeons, and would rather have EMs than any other form of "Side-content". I'm going through Bozja again right now on this forum alt. But that content doesn't get better over successive iterations from refusing to parse criticisms of it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ElysiumDragon

To be fair, Eureka was too grindy and Bozja didn't have a sufficient reward system to encourage long-term play. If they've learned from both of them, then a Tural-themed Exploratory Zone would be a wonderful idea.

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What seems about the sweet spot to you, in terms of vertical grind progression for an EM? How might Bozja have been encouraged long-term play? And are there other sorts of novel mechanics or intrinsic motivators that you'd like to see in a new Exploratory Mission in Dawntrail, if we get one?

Say they did add another yalls complaints would then shift to "they're not doing anything new and things are just formulaic now". There is no pleasing some of you. Interesting to see a "These zones are for MMO lovers" when most folks I saw in these zones sat on their ass while a small group does the work (namely in Eureka). The only reason Boz escaped this somewhat is because the FATEs requires some form of contribution. But if in order to be an MMO lover you have to like long drawn out padded grinds then maybe being one is detrimental. Eureka and Boz get boring fast and only serve as time wasters after awhile.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

But that content doesn't get better over successive iterations from refusing to parse criticisms of it.

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True. It also doesn't get better if another iteration isn't made because people it wasn't designed for didn't like it. Relics and exploratory zones weren't originally designed or intended for the target audience of the Manderville weapons. It's clear that a shift in target audience has occurred, and unless it shifts back we won't be getting proper exploratory content at all.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

Say they did add another yalls complaints would then shift to "they're not doing anything new and things are just formulaic now". There is no pleasing some of you.

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Why is it so hard for some to understand that the people who complained about Eureka/Bozja when it was current and the people who are complaining that there's no EW exploratory zone are two entirely different groups of people? The people who complained about Eureka/Bozja got what they wanted, the people complaining now are not those guys, we're the people who had some of our favorite content taken away in exchange for a glorified tome weapon vending machine.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

Interesting to see a "These zones are for MMO lovers" when most folks I saw in these zones sat on their ass while a small group does the work (namely in Eureka).

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That's not an issue with the content, that's an issue with human nature. Most people don't bother to work on spawning S rank hunts or scouting A ranks for trains either. Your point is invalid.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

Eureka and Boz get boring fast and only serve as time wasters after awhile.

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Maybe you think this because you don't like actual MMOs? That's a valid opinion to have, but if you don't like MMOs, that would explain why you don't like content that is designed to emulate an MMO.

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

True. It also doesn't get better if another iteration isn't made because people it wasn't designed for didn't like it. Relics and exploratory zones weren't originally designed or intended for the target audience of the Manderville weapons. It's clear that a shift in target audience has occurred, and unless it shifts back we won't be getting proper exploratory content at all.

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There are some suggestions not worth seriously/furtherconsidering because their costs would obviously be too high to those who already mostly enjoy the content.

But... who and what was being dismissed out of hand on the basis that they must not like the content / must hate MMOs? A suggestion to slightly improve the grind length and reward schemes of Exploratory Missions, from someone who'd played through both.

???

Or was that a truly terrible mismatch between quote and reply?

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

True. It also doesn't get better if another iteration isn't made because people it wasn't designed for didn't like it. Relics and exploratory zones weren't originally designed or intended for the target audience of the Manderville weapons. It's clear that a shift in target audience has occurred, and unless it shifts back we won't be getting proper exploratory content at all.



Why is it so hard for some to understand that the people who complained about Eureka/Bozja when it was current and the people who are complaining that there's no EW exploratory zone are two entirely different groups of people? The people who complained about Eureka/Bozja got what they wanted, the people complaining now are not those guys, we're the people who had some of our favorite content taken away in exchange for a glorified tome weapon vending machine.



That's not an issue with the content, that's an issue with human nature. Most people don't bother to work on spawning S rank hunts or scouting A ranks for trains either. Your point is invalid.



Maybe you think this because you don't like actual MMOs? That's a valid opinion to have, but if you don't like MMOs, that would explain why you don't like content that is designed to emulate an MMO.

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When did I ever say they were the same group? Oh right...I didn't. I even specified "some of you" but you know...reading is hard sometimes.

Yes it IS an issue with the content cause if spawning NMs was fun more would be helping. That wasn't the case. To call that invalid is just dumb. I'd be willing to bet that's why they got rid of most of that in Boz.

Also who made you the be all opinion on who does and doesn't like MMOs? You don't get to just say "Don't like Eureka style content? You must not like MMOs". No that's not how that works. Last I checked MMOs aren't just excessive grinds that are padded to waste time. Things like dungeons and raids are also a key part of MMOs. One can like the later 2 and not the former and still like MMOs. Come on now...

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

Maybe you think this because you don't like actual MMOs? That's a valid opinion to have, but if you don't like MMOs, that would explain why you don't like content that is designed to emulate an MMO.

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It sounds like your definition of a MMO is very narrow when if you look up the definition of MMO it's rather broad.

Massively Multiplayer Online - an online game with a large number of players online at the same time on the same server. That's it.

The MMO genre in general has evolved quite a bit since the old days of the original Everquest, Runescape, Ultima Online, etc.

If you want to say that Eureka and Bozja are for players that like old school style MMOs, I would agree with that. It's still subjective opinion, though.

I've always associated some degree of grinding with the genre and the gameplay honestly starts feel unfulfilling to me if there isn't any tangible sense of progress.

For that reason the initial post-expansion period where I'm leveling everything to the cap tends to feel the most interesting to me, but different strokes for different folks I guess.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Eureka was too grindy……If this is the only MMO youve ever played

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I remember that Pagos on release was despised because it was both grindy and poorly designed, and that you can still find complaints about Pagos and Hydatos being a chore to this day. I have at least two Eureka weapons complete, and 3 more on the go, so it's not like I don't have any experience with Eureka...

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I enjoyed Eureka, but... it would almost certainly have had greater community engagement and had been more enjoyable to the average player if the EXP requirements for leveling up were lower, leaving that grind instead to the horizontal progression of Relics instead of something that'd more inflexibly split apart its players across a given zone.



They're not each being called out because they've only collectively --not individually-- had the kind of impact or reward-access that Exploratory Missions have had and because we're literally in a thread about Exploratory Missions.

In a thread about Exploratory Missions, you can expect Exploratory Missions to get a larger share of the discourse even if other content forms were just as good/bad/neutral in regard to a given criteria.

Moreover, a critique doesn't stop being valid just because it doesn't include every other item that might also meet its description.



That would imply that the only (respectable) enjoyment one can get out of MMOs to large-zone mob- and FATE grinds...

I like both, in the right contexts, but liking other parts of the MMO experience more than that aspect in particular doesn't mean that one doesn't like/love MMOs, let alone that they hate them.

__________

Again, I like Exploratory Missions. I certainly think they're a more fitting, efficient, and lucrative content form than the likes of Variant/Criterion Dungeons, and would rather have EMs than any other form of "Side-content". I'm going through Bozja again right now on this forum alt. But that content doesn't get better over successive iterations from refusing to parse criticisms of it.



What seems about the sweet spot to you, in terms of vertical grind progression for an EM? How might Bozja have been encouraged long-term play? And are there other sorts of novel mechanics or intrinsic motivators that you'd like to see in a new Exploratory Mission in Dawntrail, if we get one?

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So I think Eureka nailed it with regards to long-term play, with noticeable gil rewards (everyone loves gil) tied to bunny chests and the like, as well as having super rare and valuable items that maintain their value to this day, and the Eureka armor sets encouraging repeat visits.

As for Bozja, I'd argue it was about the right amount of grindy for the relic questline, with several ways to make the grind a lot easier if you knew what to do. That, and I feel Bozja overall handled instanced content better despite accessibility issues, with several different pieces of content compared to Eureka only having BA.

My ideal relic zone would have Eureka's aesthetic, bunny fates, community, and alternative reward incentives, with Bozja's progression grind, ability to level jobs inside the instance, and instances (though the instances should ideally be either soloable or not gatekeep relic progression, and be far easier to spawn).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

Say they did add another yalls complaints would then shift to "they're not doing anything new and things are just formulaic now". There is no pleasing some of you. Interesting to see a "These zones are for MMO lovers" when most folks I saw in these zones sat on their ass while a small group does the work (namely in Eureka). The only reason Boz escaped this somewhat is because the FATEs requires some form of contribution. But if in order to be an MMO lover you have to like long drawn out padded grinds then maybe being one is detrimental. Eureka and Boz get boring fast and only serve as time wasters after awhile.

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"Yeah let's never get rid of slavery because then people will complain about gender inequality next"

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Originally Posted by Reap00

I enjoy variant dungeons.

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Same. It's a big step in the right direction. Same with Criterion. More, please. :)