Skill trees and Alternate Advancement

if you ever played a mmo you guys know theres no choice on skill trees people will only want "that" build then your pretty much were you were without it. and who knows how many years it will take to fix a skill tree after they build it and after they raise the lv cap.

i would rather get merits than a skill tree and im not trying to XP when im at lv cap thats the most retarded thing in FFXI it was like leveling back up to 75 again on the same job. they need to make extra ablitys and spells, etc as a quest most like getting relics than getting xp.

I don't think its a good idea, just look at what has happened with "that other game". There is no real customization and balancing has become a nightmare because every spec has, effectively, become its own class.

This game just needs secondary weapon options and a much larger variety in clothing/armor choices.

Someone's probably already said this, but I don't think having a permanent skill tree choice would be beneficial at all. If it makes you better at some things and worse at others, then surely that limits the kind of content you can do? For example, if you became a fire-oriented BLM, you can't do Ifrit and so on. Effectively locking you out of content isn't going to help a game where people already complain there isn't enough to do.

http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...entry?e=386946

I blogged about now i feel jobs/classes are.

MMOs are starting to move away from the talent tree model to some more interesting ideas.

WoW is now going to use a perk inspired system were every x levels you pick from one of three talents that have a similar general same aim, but achieve it in different ways.

GW2 is using a system where you distribute attribute points which unlock passives, some of which you can pick whilst some are fixed. http://www.gw2tools.com/

Maybe FFXIV could have a kind of system were you pick between different passives.

E.g. A Monk might have a selection of passives relating to Second Wind, of which only one can be picked - Second Wind heals more, or it has a shorter cooldown, or monk receives a 5 second defensive buff when using Second Wind.

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Originally Posted by Skies

Hrm... Aren't skill trees quest-based and called Jobs in this game?
I mean, that's what it looks like to me.

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How I see skill-tree is that you earn points during killing a enemy or level up and you buy with the points the next skill you want. You choose yourself what skill you want to learn next (as soon as you saved up enough points).
There are skill tree models where you can learn every skill if you grind enough over time:

FF Tactics
http://lparchive.org/Final-Fantasy-T...011_222333.png

FF XII
http://www.galbadiax.com/ff12/licens...fxii-board.jpg

And there are skill tree models where you can't learn every skill and have to choose which skill you want for your end build

Ragnarok online
http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/5758/profett1.jpg

Ive already explained 100 times in this thread why there wouldnt be an "ultimate" build for each class. Use your imaginations and creative thinking proccesses which i know a lot of people dont seem to have.

Also yes.. a skill tree could be a 1 path only thing OR they could also let you max all the paths if you wanted but only after you have maxed 1 specific path. And then the exp required to get skills from another path would be exponential and very time consuming. Some players would be happy with the path they have chosen and leave it at that, while more hardcore players would want to push there character even further and im talking 500k+ exp just for 1 skill upgrade on a second path so it would really be an endgame form of character advancement that would take a lot of time. But its there as a choice if you wanted.

It would be nice if we had a system where you could buy/choose between X number os skills.
And once you choose the one you want, you cannot undo that action.
You'll have to stick with those skills until the end.

That way it would make each player more unique in its on way.

Adding some of these ideas will make it a pain to balance, especially if they plan on adding some sort of PvP. Well, that is if they decide not to split PvE/PvP skillsets into 2 different sets.

I'll admit though, mr./ms. 5000 hour playtime guy one shotting all the casuals in PvP because he is AA maxed would be pretty funny. Maybe.

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Originally Posted by Sagagemini

It would be nice if we had a system where you could buy/choose between X number os skills.
And once you choose the one you want, you cannot undo that action.
You'll have to stick with those skills until the end.

That way it would make each player more unique in its on way.

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And let you buy the other skills later, after you earned enough points again.

I left EQ for FFXI within 48 hours of playing FFXI... Please do not bring EQ and WoW to Final Fantasy. Especially please do not bring skill trees that can not be easily completely changed.
Many people who play FF greatly enjoy the flexibility of being able to do whatever they like at any point. We like being able to just switch jobs anywhere and the ability to switch roles within a job.
Although skill trees are neat and fun, they tend to lend themselves to exploitation and elitism with the whole "you don't have X at max skill level? GTFO of party"

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FF Tactics This would be sweet
http://lparchive.org/Final-Fantasy-T...011_222333.png

FF XII This would also be sweet, if you take out all extra stat bonuses and traits
http://www.galbadiax.com/ff12/licens...fxii-board.jpg

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Skill Trees are kinda limiting, but I like the idea of further progression through stat points and upgrading spells and such.

I'm excited to see what kind of system appears in 2.0.
For now, even though you can level all classes and cross class 60% of skills and yet all classes/jobs are IMO well balanced, why ruin a good thing.

Cookie cutter builds will always be the norm as long as you can just google "FFXIV Best BLM Build"

On a side note: A guy I work with is big into a certain game "OWO" Did you know you can just go to a website, type in your class and it will tell you what skills you need to have to maximize your potential?
Then when you have all your skills done you can type in your current gear setup, and it will tell you what pieces you need to change, and where and how to get them.

We barely know what the stats even do in this game, so I can understand some peoples frustrations (sarcasm :D)

I know ppl hate hearing XI but I would like to see a return of the merit system in the bonus point system we have now. It was such an awesome concept, in my opinion. What I would like to see is when there are multiple jobs per class, you can earn bonus points for the class that can be spent on one of the jobs.

For example say you get max 10 bonus points for GLA. You can spend them to crank up PLD abilities or hypothetically DRK abilities. So while You can play any class, at the end you will pick a job to specialize in per class. Of course have the option to reroll, but no on the fly or without penalty.

Also, you guys need to get within your theories the fact that "Once you choose it, you can't alter it" and "It takes effort to change your skillset" are actually counter to XIV's game design.
From the get go we were always able to quickly change and adapt our skillset. So remember for whatever ideas you throw around, keep in mind that you need to be freely able to shift and change between builds at no cost. Just how the Armory System as it is right now won't impose on you nothing but having to re-wait on the cooldowns again when you classchange.

If we're looking at a skill path with a set amount of skill points, then a Keeper of the Hymn could reset to be under the same system as the attribute point lock down.

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Originally Posted by Firon

You must have been a bad player for using classes before jobs came out learning the fight on class or job will make you better.



That's whole point i was saying PGL IS GOOD FOR SOLO!!!!!! I even use it for fighting lvl 54 mobs cause they drop some of the items i sell!!!!

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Actually I've been in many parties with him and HE was the one who helped me become a better healer when I wasn't able to play as ofter as I could I go to him for advise on jobs and classes because he knows how to play them and he is good with them. As with a lot of our other Ls members. I value his advise a lot. Thanks Kraus for helping me and teaching me one of the best ways to play as a Conjurer when I was still going wtf.

FF14 is one of the few games where they have the ability to keep us unique because they didn't make crafting a sub menu for your combat. Allowing us to be unique crafters also avoids the FotM of min/max. I would prefer a Ranger that was a split with a gathering class and able to set loot priority so they became a master at gathering hides or shells, capable of unlocking unique loot tables only a Ranger can get. Break that down further and make a Specialist Ranger who can loot unique or rare gems from the beasts they slay. Dragons Eye or Tortoise pearls. Needing Mining, Jewel crafting and a combat quest line for such a specialist.

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Originally Posted by Kyra

Ive already explained 100 times in this thread why there wouldnt be an "ultimate" build for each class. Use your imaginations and creative thinking proccesses which i know a lot of people dont seem to have.

Also yes.. a skill tree could be a 1 path only thing OR they could also let you max all the paths if you wanted but only after you have maxed 1 specific path. And then the exp required to get skills from another path would be exponential and very time consuming. Some players would be happy with the path they have chosen and leave it at that, while more hardcore players would want to push there character even further and im talking 500k+ exp just for 1 skill upgrade on a second path so it would really be an endgame form of character advancement that would take a lot of time. But its there as a choice if you wanted.

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What you're describing will do nothing but foster animosity and frustration throughout the entire player base and cause a balancing nightmare for the developers. This isn't a fresh idea, many MMOs have (unsuccessfully) tried to balance around these types of conventions and it just doesn't work. Players are left on the bench or forced to play specs/classes they don't enjoy. Developers have to balance the game around 3x as many character choices. It just becomes a mess and I'd rather they devote that time to giving us new classes.

I'm not saying that there is no place for skill customization, I just don't think skill trees belong here. Instead, I'd like to see a resurrection of the merit system that isn't just tied into grinding mindlessly.

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Originally Posted by Skies

Also, you guys need to get within your theories the fact that "Once you choose it, you can't alter it" and "It takes effort to change your skillset" are actually counter to XIV's game design.
From the get go we were always able to quickly change and adapt our skillset. So remember for whatever ideas you throw around, keep in mind that you need to be freely able to shift and change between builds at no cost. Just how the Armory System as it is right now won't impose on you nothing but having to re-wait on the cooldowns again when you classchange.

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As long as the progression system isn't both permanent AND has a maximum point expenditure, it's not a problem if it takes effort to change skillset, or even if the new skillset you've decided you want has to be leveled from scratch, as long as it's class/job-specific.

That I think matches FFXIV best. After all, we can't take back the levels we've put into Gladiator and stick them into Lancer instead. They are permanent changes. If you want something else, you level something else. I think the same should apply to whatever alternate or parallel system we come up with.

Throwing some of these out here to flesh it out possibilities a little more. Some of these modifications may already be in the game under some of the items or patch notes beyond 1.20. (whether these end up as traits from items, materia, level cap increase, or an alternate advancement system)

Examples/Sample (not full listing):

Gladiator

• Reduces TP cost of Fast Blade by 250.
• Savage Blade grants Savage Might, increasing Critical Attack Power for 20 seconds.
• Reduce recast time of Riot Blade by 20 seconds.
• Expand Savage Might to affect you and nearby party members.
• Increase range of Enhanced Rampart by X yalms.
• Increase enmity generated by Phalanx.
• Triggers Sentinel at low health for 15 seconds. This effect may occur once every 3 minutes. Does not affect recast time of Sentinel.
• Expand Sentinel to affect you and nearby party members.
• Increase healing receive by 8%.
• Grants chance to stun with Phalanx.
• Grants TP on successful block.
• Increases magic damage reduction by 8% when using a shield.
• Expand Tempered Will to affect you and nearby party members.

Archer

• Ranged attacks sometimes do not consume arrows.
• Increases Light Shot damage by 20% when attacking within 8 yalms of target.
• Reduces recast time of Decoy by 30 seconds.
• Increases critical rate when using Hawk's Eye.
• Increases maximum stack of Raging Strike by X.
• Reduces recast time of Shadowbind by 20 seconds.
• Increases resistance to Accuracy Down and Blind effects by 20.
• When Raging Strike is at 3 stacks, Light Shot generates TP for allies near target.
• Increases critical rate against a target afflicted by Bind or Heavy.
• Increases number of attacks granted by Barrage by 1.
• Increases range of songs by 10 yalms.

Pugilist

• Generate additional TP when attacking from the rear.
• Reduced enmity when attacking from the rear.
• Generate TP on successful evasion.
• Generate TP for party members when Featherfoot effect fades.
• Reduces damage received from most area attacks by 15%.
• Increases evasion against physical area attacks by X.
• Increases healing received by 8%.
• Increases damage against a target afflicted by Stun or Bind.
• Counter attacks deal additional damage.
• Throwing weapons deal damage to an area of enemies, but generate less TP per additional target.

Marauder

• Generate TP on successful parry.
• Generate TP for party members when Foresight effect fades.
• Enduring March reduces damage received by 8%.
• Increases duration of Pacification by 20%.
• Increases resistance to Pacification and Paralysis by 20.
• Provoke lowers target's resistance to Critical Hits.
• Maim reduces healing effects received on target by 50%.
• Grants Overpower a chance to afflict Paralysis for 5 seconds.
• Throwing weapons have a chance to stun enemies.

Lancer

• Generate additional TP on successful critical hit.
• Reduces damage received from most area attacks by 15%.
• Throwing weapons ignore some of target's physical defense.
• Generate TP for party members when Invigorate effect fades.
• Feint reduces enmity on target.
• Increases resistance to Heavy and Slow by 20.
• Increases the maximum stacks of Power Surge and Life Surge by 1.
• Power Surge grants Attack Up to nearby party members for 15 seconds.
• Life Surge increases healing received by nearby party members for 15 seconds.

Conjurer

• Blissful Mind increases Magic Accuracy.
• Gradually regenerate HP.
• When Stoneskin effect fades, increase Earth Magic Potency for 15 seconds. Maximum stack of 3.
• Shroud of Saints reduce enmity of nearby party members.
• Repose reduces target's Earth Resistance for 30 seconds.
• Stonera afflicts Rasp for 20 seconds.
• Aerora afflicts Choke for 20 seconds.
• Increases resilience (resistance to ailments) by 10.
• Triggers Shroud of Saints at low health for 20 seconds. This effect may occur once every 3 minutes. Does not affect recast time of Shroud of Saints.

Thaumaturge

• Increases range of Blizzara by X yalms.
• Dark Seal increases effectiveness of the Combo Bonus of the next spell.
• Increases resistance to Silence and Amnesia by 20.
• Reduces MP cost of Thunder spells.
• Reduces enmity generated by Fire spells.
• Resonance extends the duration of the next spell's enfeebling effect.
• Increase elemental resistance by 8.
• Restores MP when resisting or partially resisting a spell.
• Sanguine Rite deals a small amount of umbral damage to the attacker.
• Triggers Sanguine Rite at low health for 10 seconds. This effect may occur once every 3 minutes. Does not affect recast time of Sanguine Rite.

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Originally Posted by Nazrakin

What you're describing will do nothing but foster animosity and frustration throughout the entire player base and cause a balancing nightmare for the developers. This isn't a fresh idea, many MMOs have (unsuccessfully) tried to balance around these types of conventions and it just doesn't work. Players are left on the bench or forced to play specs/classes they don't enjoy. Developers have to balance the game around 3x as many character choices. It just becomes a mess and I'd rather they devote that time to giving us new classes.

I'm not saying that there is no place for skill customization, I just don't think skill trees belong here. Instead, I'd like to see a resurrection of the merit system that isn't just tied into grinding mindlessly.

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The game isnt balanced and it never will be, I can make my character stronger with gear making me unbalanced compared to someone in lesser gear than me. Why cant I do this with skill growth to. So its ok for an unbalance between characters if its gear related because you have worked on getting that gear, but its not ok to be unbalanced with upgraded skills because you have worked on getting those skills?

If you guys want a gear orientated game then you have it, there is no real customisation with skills once you have all classes to 50 which doesnt take long. All my class and jobs action bars are set with the skills i need, maybe one or two i would swap out depending on the situation but thats it.

Basicaly I feel like i completed the game 6 months ago in terms of my character growth. All it has been since then is about getting new gear, adding materia to gear, or other game content for gear or achievments. I just dont get excited when they add new gear each patch, im quite happy with my sets i have for this level cap. I want to grow my character another way. Anything... something, stop adding more stupid gear lol.

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Originally Posted by Rannie

Actually I've been in many parties with him and HE was the one who helped me become a better healer when I wasn't able to play as ofter as I could I go to him for advise on jobs and classes because he knows how to play them and he is good with them. As with a lot of our other Ls members. I value his advise a lot. Thanks Kraus for helping me and teaching me one of the best ways to play as a Conjurer when I was still going wtf.

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awww thanks Rannie, no worries though Firon already proved his knowledge or lack there of in Reinhearts thread concerning CC's and black mages.

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Originally Posted by Fiosha_Maureiba

Throwing some of these out here to flesh it out possibilities a little more. Some of these modifications may already be in the game under some of the items or patch notes beyond 1.20. (whether these end up as traits from items, materia, level cap increase, or an alternate advancement system)

[HIDE]Examples/Sample (not full listing):

***See previous page. It'll be worth your time.***

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Great list. It's fun even just imagining the bonuses in use. Being the nit-pick I am I'd like slightly more unique effects like the AoE resistance for PGL being based on number of recent attacks and current TP remaining (less so), or increased when next to someone else (Fleeting Dance), while the one for Lancer protected himself and others in a conical area facing away from the target he's attacking (Strike Leader). Something of that sort that gives identical effects not so identical applications and feel like their classes.

Skill tree type systems just simply doesn't work in MMOs like XI/XIV because they're not designed to allow specialized progression on the one and only single class you can be on your character, you can be multiple classes with jobs adding some more specialization to the base. Merit type system can work depending, but XIV still has a flawed attribute system ontop of a flawed dlvl calculation to even think of stat/ability specialization.

Love this concept but as such with this community the strongest/most useful abilities would be the only ones to be used. I seriously doubt SE could fairly balance something that will allow everyone to be "unique"

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Originally Posted by Sagagemini

It would be nice if we had a system where you could buy/choose between X number os skills.
And once you choose the one you want, you cannot undo that action.
You'll have to stick with those skills until the end.

That way it would make each player more unique in its on way.

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But in the end, the mathcraft will reveal an optimal combination of skills for the least amount of grinding, and people will use this or be considered gimp.

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Originally Posted by Mirage

But in the end, the mathcraft will reveal an optimal combination of skills for the least amount of grinding, and people will use this or be considered gimp.

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The mathcraft won't be released until people have gone through all content, or else the mathcraft will be basically useless. Every situation will have difference. Theorycrafting that doesn't keep that in mind will fail utterly. It just requires fight complexity, something MMOs haven't always done well, but certainly can do.