Should bosses get something along the lines of a mini enrage, or super TB?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kaynide

Just chiming in, not meaning to be confrontational, but as a player in JP with a professional..chronic.. floortank of a wife, I can assure you JP are not unicorns and certainly have just as many super casual/low skill players as NA.

One of our good friends since 2.0 has YET to figure out Titan’s very predictable pattern here 10 years later. She celebrates if she just makes it to the end without getting knocked off. We love her just the same.

Also, remember, they made a JP tv drama that is almost entirely about a son secretly carrying his dad through Twintania. He tries his best…and they eventually clear, but he's an old man just playing for fun, not necessarily to be a good player.

https://i0.wp.com/dramaswithasideofk...pg?w=425&ssl=1

We (wife and I) call them (including my wife) “tourist players”. They are here to ride the rides, gawk at the things and see the story. Don’t really care about learning the mechanics aside from the one clear needed to progress….and with her new BFF Y’shtola showing her where to stand in raids/dungeons, she doesn’t need me anymore D:

---

haha, that's so cute. I'd be curious to check out that show!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ayche

Oh it does matter.
Even in normal raids there is no reason to punish the other tank just because the other guy died. Two tanks in normal/story content is exactly there for the sake of redundancy.

---

Was not my point; my point was about soloing current expac dungeon content with tanks exclusively.

That is to say, as long as at least 1 tank, 1 healer and reasonable (say at least 1/2) dps, you should be able to clear whatever it is, maybe easily if skilled. Barely skirt by if not.

Obviously unless there is a gimmick/swap that needs 2 tanks.

Outside of current generation, game on. It’s fun to push limits/see what can be solo’d. Even doing wacky things like 8 tanks clearing savage raids…..

But when you see 8 tanks clearing stuff like Pandaemonium Savage or UCoB, it doesn’t really scream good design. No hate on their skill mind you… just if that is possible, what’s the point of doing anything but tanks?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

Your arguing with a person that thinks playing the game for 9 years at the level of doing normal dungeons and alliance raids gives them a complete opinion on the games expansive combat system and content.

Looking up their character on a publicly available website will give you about as much information as you need to just ignore any comment they make about the games combat system, because its very obvious they they do not understand it at all, or don't care enough to actually improve at the game.

---

Is this a "this poster doesn't do savage or ultimate, so clearly has no clue what she's talking about" kind of jab? Isn't that the same content where players use add-ons and third party tools I don't have access to in order to facilitate their clears? Is that the best argument you have because I called out your elitism? Are you one of those players, by chance? I wouldn't want to assume anything. That's your habit.

OK fine. I can admit I don't run savage, but I'm also not referring to those specific duties either. I have specifically stated EX and below, which I have plenty of those clears under my belt, up to current. Including Barb EX before she can be echoed which I believe many players have equated to some savage fights.

And sure, you assume that I don't care to improve my gameplay, which is absolute word vomit you're using to try and get under my feathers. Such assumptions along with lumping all NA players together under the same umbrella only showcases your elitism even more. As if there was a doubt in the first place. That's what is clearly obvious to me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

This is exactly what the problem is.

Look this player up on a publicly available website and every recorded dungeon they have multiple vuln stacks.

Its 100% a skill issue, Move out of the bad.

But we are elitist expecting them to actually learn how to play the game after 9 years, right?

---

No. You're an elitist because you keep making this a skill issue, when all this time I've only been asking if Tanks simply have more sustainability than what's necessary. But see, because you are an elitist, and the worse kind of one because you have an inflated ego to match it, you can't see that. And you have to resort to personal attacks about my inferior gameplay despite never grouping with me once. That's OK though. As I implied before, I would absolutely hate having you in my group knowing the kind of elitist attitude you have, but I would absolutely LOVE to show you just how bad I am at this game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kaynide

But when you see 8 tanks clearing stuff like Pandaemonium Savage or UCoB, it doesn’t really scream good design. No hate on their skill mind you… just if that is possible, what’s the point of doing anything but tanks?

---

To be fair, saying 8 tanks clearing ucob is bad design & why would you play anything but tanks severely underestimates the sheer difficulty and ridiculous lengths, planning & insanely high execution the players have to go to to achieve said results that even among ultimate raid tier capable players, a fraction would be skilled enough / persistent enough to accomplish.

Like how the entire party needs to co-ordinate their movement for liquid hells since sticking a tank out at range to bait them resulted in hitting Twin's enrage. (and once again in twin + Nael phase)
Or how every mechanic that is role based (like Quickmarch/Blackfire) now becomes full on RNG requiring endless flexing and all players to be watching all other players to adjust.

Just becomes its possible to 8 tank fights doesn't mean it's even remotely close to easy. In almost every case where it'd be applicable, In reality it's vastly harder than just a standard comp.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by VictorSpoils

If you do A1 unsynced and survive SD, the fight will just reset with you still standing there. Thought that was kind of amusing.

---

There are a few fights that clearly weren't programmed to think of the possibility of someone surviving enrage, so they just kinda stop, then usually reset. Odin (in the trial at Urth's Font) and Brute Justice also do it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Daeriion_Aeradiir

To be fair, saying 8 tanks clearing ucob is bad design & why would you play anything but tanks severely underestimates the sheer difficulty and ridiculous lengths, planning & insanely high execution the players have to go to to achieve said results that even among ultimate raid tier capable players, a fraction would be skilled enough / persistent enough to accomplish.

Like how the entire party needs to co-ordinate their movement for liquid hells since sticking a tank out at range to bait them resulted in hitting Twin's enrage. (and once again in twin + Nael phase)
Or how every mechanic that is role based (like Quickmarch/Blackfire) now becomes full on RNG requiring endless flexing and all players to be watching all other players to adjust.

Just becomes its possible to 8 tank fights doesn't mean it's even remotely close to easy. In almost every case where it'd be applicable, In reality it's vastly harder than just a standard comp.

---

My point was mitigation alone shouldn’t be enough to survive a current-expac trial, let alone a savage one… Mitigation is where tank abilities should be, not massive self healing.

No hate on people who can do it- they are using the rules/systems as given and finding ways. Awesome on them! But bad on the devs for designing tanks to be able to do this in the first place.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Troxbark

Cried because healers wouldn't heal and dps wouldn't use mits. After the 2nd or 3rd week it was a non-issue when people realized how to actually utilize everything their job has.

---

Thats why I was talking about week one. Why are you bringing 3rd week into it wtf.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Troxbark

Blue carnivale??? Old and outdated content that no one gives a shit about lmao. If you compare savage to equivalent relevant casual content then no, more people don't do savage. The fact you had to cherry pick content that is basically hidden or outdated shows how disingenuous you're trying to be.

---

Outdated content? Holy shit. You are crying here that the normal story raids are too ez, and then cry that the at least a little challenging casual content is outdated and nobody gives a shit about. Man. You are the one who is disingenuous.
y that

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saraide

P7s tankbusters are possibly the worst example of pointing at how much more damage bosses supposedly do. You could solo the "shared" tankbuster week 1 which halves the dot incoming total dot damage. It let me tell my cotank to "let me solo her" but that's about everything.

---

It is. But I said how many people cried about it. There are much harder healers check. But P7S somehow got the most attention. But look at what he posted. Boss AUTOS should do 25% damage. So I compared it to P7S dot for the whole fight durration. On both tanks. Yeah, have fun healing that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gemina

Expecting players to play perfectly because YOU have over 300+ hours in the game is textbook elitism

---

If you have spent as much time in the game, as you spent on the forums with 5k posts... Maybe you would be world racing in ultimates by now.
If I remember right, you liked playing DNC/SAM/MNK. DPS jobs that have great mitigations and self healing. Even if the whole party is bad, you have your tools to keep alive yourself if used right, so even the argument about raidwides is invalid. When you survive alone with the tank, they can keep you alive. So seriously. Look deep down into your play. We dont say you are the worst player and its skill issue. But the game give you so many tools to keep yourself and the party alive, that punishing tanks for being alive in very rare occurances if they are douchebags is not something this game is in need of right now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gemina

Is this a "this poster doesn't do savage or ultimate, so clearly has no clue what she's talking about" kind of jab? Isn't that the same content where players use add-ons and third party tools I don't have access to in order to facilitate their clears? Is that the best argument you have because I called out your elitism? Are you one of those players, by chance? I wouldn't want to assume anything. That's your habit.

---

I can see both sides honestly. I usually do extend greater patience with new players, they are learning- I've been there. However, the sprout icon does exist for a reason and once you lose it, I do expect certain basics (ex. tank stance, no freecure fishing, knowing that a player jumping in place generally means "This is the safe spot!" etc.)

When the poster mentions 300+ hours, they are referring to the limit when the sprout icon gets removed. Its a set of training wheels that communicates to people whether or not you have a certain level of experience. That said, I generally run harder content with my static, because they have a baseline of competency that I can rely on, and avoid the frustrations generally discussed in this thread. Including tanks holding a fight "hostage". We call for a reset, we reset. No sweat.

I think the difficulty of normal dungeons and normal raids has gone completely downhill. It may be because of the stat adjustment over the years and the latest rework.

Some old lower bosses hit you with tankbusters that won't even deal 5% of your MaxHP. Making it questionable if you will even need a heal before the boss is dead, even before you get all the selfheal skills later.

Some raid bosses have mechanics that inflict a vulnerability debuff on you, when you have like 5-8 of them and take damage, it feels like how it should be under normal circumstances. The ability to having to use a cooldown at a tankbuster to survive it. Every normal type difficulty content is made so easy, that it is almost impossible to fail.

Why is it that you can do 8 to16 failed mechanics in a row and still survive it? Sometimes there isnt even the possibility to fail so much, because the debuff runs out before the next mechanic executes.

Meanwhile you have savage content difficulty, where one little mistake wipes the party.... When will SE find the middle ground? The solution is not to add more Boss HP, it is to make the fight more dangerous.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Commander_Justitia

I think the difficulty of normal dungeons and normal raids has gone completely downhill. It may be because of the stat adjustment over the years and the latest rework.

---

I remember the alex raids being rough. Even on my first time doing A8 when I was new, we couldn't even beat it. Now it's a complete joke. But it was also the first time many people saw a stack marker because that was one of the first pieces of content to get a stack marker. The difference now is that instead of being item level 240 or below (probably below), everyone is synced to 270, so it melts. It got to a point where it was barely possible to see the robots shooting everything, which is one of the most fun bits even if just cinematic. After the stat squish, it's now common to see it again (although ocassionally still skipped depending on DPS).

A11 is another one where, I remember that 33% of parties couldn't actually clear it and abandoned. I would often join in-progress and sometimes I would be able to change the outcome for them, but other times the party just couldn't do it even with my help and abandoned. The very end of it was rough with numerous mechanics that overwhelmed heals and caused players to get a confuse buff and run around into aoes. And then there were all these shiva mechanics that P3 also does and add spawns that required tanking.

The only way to make that last part easier for the new players doing it was really to try and DPS through it faster and that too got easier once we were all syncing down to 270, instead of just some of us being 270.

Quote:

---

Some old lower bosses hit you with tankbusters that won't even deal 5% of your MaxHP. Making it questionable if you will even need a heal before the boss is dead, even before you get all the selfheal skills later.

---

Many of the tankbusters cast in the oldest dungeons, such as ARR dungeons, were always tank busters (and I was aware of them), but the majority of players were not aware they were tank busters because of that exact problem. It is also true that even when the content was current, those tank busters did not hurt much if you in max item level gear. I remember one example well and it was in Saint Mocianne's Arboretum HM. The stone TB didn't really hurt enough for me to care.

Even in the newest dungeons right now, when I go in there with my max item level gear, the tank busters just don't hurt. It's like a tickle and I brush it off with my lightest short cooldown. When I heal the same dungeons I see lower geared tanks taking a big hit. So it's just where if you go and do raids and keep your gear cutting edge that you'll see the benefit on things like tank busters. After the content is old, you get synced to max item level anyway and then it's harmless to everyone except on their first time.

Quote:

---

Every normal type difficulty content is made so easy, that it is almost impossible to fail.

---

Well yes, they don't want people to get stuck doing the MSQ or to feel that it's too difficult to progress. And there are people who find some of the easiest content very difficult. You just have to try to think what it might be like for someone who has never played an MMORPG before, has default keybinds, settings and hotbar layouts and let's throw in that they are relatively new to using computers since covid happened. SE has to make it work for everyone so they can experience the story and get to the end.

It's up to them if they ever want to do difficult stuff later on when they understand the game better.

Quote:

---

Why is it that you can do 8 to16 failed mechanics in a row and still survive it? Sometimes there isnt even the possibility to fail so much, because the debuff runs out before the next mechanic executes.

---

Judging by your chosen job, you're a tank. That's why. Tank priviledge. Sometimes other jobs can get away with some mistakes, but 8 to 16 is more tank's territory.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

There are a few fights that clearly weren't programmed to think of the possibility of someone surviving enrage, so they just kinda stop, then usually reset. Odin (in the trial at Urth's Font) and Brute Justice also do it.

---

Speaking of Odin's enrage, it actually deals 999,999 damage now. I do vaguely remember it being 99,999, so they probably changed it in Endwalker to coincide with the epic echo addition.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Commander_Justitia

I think the difficulty of normal dungeons and normal raids has gone completely downhill. It may be because of the stat adjustment over the years and the latest rework.

Some old lower bosses hit you with tankbusters that won't even deal 5% of your MaxHP. Making it questionable if you will even need a heal before the boss is dead, even before you get all the selfheal skills later.

Some raid bosses have mechanics that inflict a vulnerability debuff on you, when you have like 5-8 of them and take damage, it feels like how it should be under normal circumstances. The ability to having to use a cooldown at a tankbuster to survive it. Every normal type difficulty content is made so easy, that it is almost impossible to fail.

Why is it that you can do 8 to16 failed mechanics in a row and still survive it? Sometimes there isnt even the possibility to fail so much, because the debuff runs out before the next mechanic executes.

Meanwhile you have savage content difficulty, where one little mistake wipes the party.... When will SE find the middle ground? The solution is not to add more Boss HP, it is to make the fight more dangerous.

---

This is especially noticeable in most of the Alexander and Omega raids (and ARR/HW trials). 5 Oppressor DoTs deal about as much damage as one regen.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Many of the tankbusters cast in the oldest dungeons, such as ARR dungeons, were always tank busters (and I was aware of them), but the majority of players were not aware they were tank busters because of that exact problem. It is also true that even when the content was current, those tank busters did not hurt much if you in max item level gear. I remember one example well and it was in Saint Mocianne's Arboretum HM. The stone TB didn't really hurt enough for me to care.

---

Yeah and now we have gone from easy to trivial? Is that really the way? It is not just ilvl by now, it is all the implementations to the combat systems like direct hit, tank stance not reducing dmg, vitality equal to strength, general potency buffs all around all classes, the ability to block and parry from all positionals while also being able to block magical spells. Like everything combined did a lot to the survivability.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Well yes, they don't want people to get stuck doing the MSQ or to feel that it's too difficult to progress.
SE has to make it work for everyone
Tank priviledge.

---

That is why there is a big echo buff if you fail a MSQ, so that people who for whatever reason cant play so well, can still clear it. In all other content you can get carried anyway if necessary.

I don't think being tank is fun when there is no tank gameplay necessary other than standing still and pressing 1 skill to get aggro. There is not much depth to it anymore. No aggro management, no facing target to increase mitigation effects, barely any fight that requires the boss get kited/moved around in a certain way, not really required to stun or silence something - which is hard itself with the netcode and mob-casttimes sub 1sec. This is all base gameplay mechanics in other MMOs, but FFXIV doesnt need it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Commander_Justitia

It is not just ilvl by now, it is all the implementations to the combat systems like direct hit, tank stance not reducing dmg, vitality equal to strength, general potency buffs all around all classes, the ability to block and parry from all positionals while also being able to block magical spells. Like everything combined did a lot to the survivability.

---

Accuracy had nothing to do with survivability. Tank stance doesn't reduce incoming damage anymore, but we have a trait that does instead, but I believe content was designed around using tank stance anyway. Content would have been designed around tanks using Vitality, but that was what SE considered the main stat for tanks.

The biggest factors are that item levels increased since the content was current and to a lesser extent HP scaling on vitality changed, there was a stat squish and using level 90 food makes us more powerful. It is true we can parry and block more but this is only going to be different in large pulls where we often can't face all of them at once.

Quote:

---

I don't think being tank is fun when there is no tank gameplay necessary other than standing still and pressing 1 skill to get aggro.

---

As much as I enjoyed the old mechanics, a lot of people have "tank anxiety". It's a massive thing that reduces the number of tanks and pushes them into either the DPS or healer roles. It caused such a shortage of tanks, that SE made tank mount achievements. In order to get more people to play tanks, they made them easier to understand by getting rid of enmity combos and making aggro management similar to playing a DPS, because damage dealing is a universal concept that exists in almost every game unlike tanking.

Quote:

---

not really required to stun or silence something

---

True, but it helps in many cases.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gemina

Is this a "this poster doesn't do savage or ultimate, so clearly has no clue what she's talking about" kind of jab? Isn't that the same content where players use add-ons and third party tools I don't have access to in order to facilitate their clears? Is that the best argument you have because I called out your elitism? Are you one of those players, by chance? I wouldn't want to assume anything. That's your habit.

OK fine. I can admit I don't run savage, but I'm also not referring to those specific duties either. I have specifically stated EX and below, which I have plenty of those clears under my belt, up to current. Including Barb EX before she can be echoed which I believe many players have equated to some savage fights.

And sure, you assume that I don't care to improve my gameplay, which is absolute word vomit you're using to try and get under my feathers. Such assumptions along with lumping all NA players together under the same umbrella only showcases your elitism even more. As if there was a doubt in the first place. That's what is clearly obvious to me.


No. You're an elitist because you keep making this a skill issue, when all this time I've only been asking if Tanks simply have more sustainability than what's necessary. But see, because you are an elitist, and the worse kind of one because you have an inflated ego to match it, you can't see that. And you have to resort to personal attacks about my inferior gameplay despite never grouping with me once. That's OK though. As I implied before, I would absolutely hate having you in my group knowing the kind of elitist attitude you have, but I would absolutely LOVE to show you just how bad I am at this game.

---

Yet the solution to your problem is just learn to play the game.

Its not elitist, it's common sense.

Being bad at something, and then trying to make the game change to adjust to your skill level, is not the solution to anything.

Practice, get better, and stop being the lowest common denominator, be that person that is alive and helping the tank clear the fight instead of sitting on the floor complaining.

Skill issue is a skill issue. Practice, get better.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

Yet the solution to your problem is just learn to play the game.

Its not elitist, it's common sense.

Being bad at something, and then trying to make the game change to adjust to your skill level, is not the solution to anything.

Practice, get better, and stop being the lowest common denominator, be that person that is alive and helping the tank clear the fight instead of sitting on the floor complaining.

Skill issue is a skill issue. Practice, get better.

---

Considering the target audience, and the obvious easy-level of the core game, demanding players to get better than necessary to clear those parts of the game is entirely unnecessary. They could if they like to, or if their group wants higher-skill/faster clears...but for the average joe it's just unnecessary to enjoy the core game.

It's like demanding people to get better at checkers. Or UNO. Or Go-Fish.
I mean you could, and there is certainly a niche circle of people you could enjoy that with... for for your average joe...what's the point ultimately?

And no, before you get mad (you have at me in the past over this), I am -again- not suggesting piss-poor-lazy or parasitic gameplay, but I am suggesting minimal effort is all that the game requires.