Can i have some of that popcorn? Had a real hard day =(Quote:
Originally Posted by Renalt
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03-25-2023, 06:06 AMQiyoJoyo
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03-25-2023, 06:38 AMKyu-MomoThe cancel culture crowd don't seem to have any tolerance. If you don't agree with them, you're demonized and are an 'enemy' to them. It's very hard to take them all seriously when they started frothing at the mouth, giving deaths threats and harassing streamers who dared to play a video game they didn't like.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thelasoriao
It's be nice if humans would stop spewing hatred and vitriol every chance they get, or better, to stop killing each other over the dumbest things, but here we are. Hatred is fun, greed and money are all that matter, empathy is for chumps, and everyone who doesn't agree with you isn't a human being anymore and deserves to be treated like garbage, am I right? /sarcasm
Twitter and the internet was a mistake. -
03-25-2023, 06:47 AMroniboschI have some cheddar popcorn, if you're interested.Quote:
Originally Posted by QiyoJoyo
Hope you feel better. -
03-25-2023, 06:55 AMSassyAssassinToo…late…save…me…Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk
Thank you yes finally! Day 12 symptoms are clearing up, tiredness still here, I don’t wish corona on anyone, I never had such horrible throat pain in my life, barely even ate and even my skin hurt, weirdest feeling ever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renalt
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03-25-2023, 07:17 AMDiaDeem
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03-25-2023, 07:30 AMZeastria
You can always pretend it exist :)
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03-25-2023, 07:48 AMHurlstoneJudging by their posts I think this is their hobby.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nessun
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03-25-2023, 07:57 AMTheMightyMollusk
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03-25-2023, 09:07 AMKolainaSpectating is so boring though. It’s about the participationQuote:
Originally Posted by Renalt
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03-25-2023, 11:17 AMMelorie
I mean, the troll was sucessful. But the funnier aspect of the thread is to see people with their sensitive asses screaming because they don't want to see any sort of relationship in their videogame or how it's all western culture and blahblahblah. Imagine being this superficial and still having that stone mindset in 2023.
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03-25-2023, 11:31 AMValkyrieL
There is literally zero heterosexual romance in this game so why do we need a spot light on this? Keep romance of any kind out it, most writing is vague, make out of it what you want...
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03-25-2023, 12:31 PMHurlstone*Stares at Urianger and Moenbryda, Y'shtola and Runa, Chai-Nuzz and Dulia-Chai (BEST COUPLE EVER!) Little Sun and his quest to find his Nhaama, Thancred and all the ladies he wooed, the countless number of side quest NPCs who mention their opposite sex attraction/partner, whatever is going on with Hoary Boulder and those sisters, Gegeruju and his dancers, the whole mining/botany part of the Stadium gather quests, Fourchenault and Ameliance, that FATE(?) where we seem to accompany a prostitute to her meeting, Lalai and Zhai'a Nelhah, Curious Gorge and Dorgono (IT COULD HAVE BEEN ME!) Alka Zolka and Setoto ect.*Quote:
Originally Posted by ValkyrieL
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03-25-2023, 01:01 PMChloe_Saunders
*sigh* being lgbt myself ... I wish things would stop enforcing it in a untactfull way.. should it be done yes, but make it make sense. Honestly thats not hard in final fantasy I always picture zidan/Kuja as bisexual Cloud seems like he might be trans. I know it may not be cannon but I do enjoy writting fanfiction of the said characters. That being said I do wish they could write the story similar to how Cloud honestly is a good representation for some ptsd and disassoting disorders, not counting he was good with helping me understand my bdp when I was growing up. Perhaps they could write a kid who was harmed, or cursed in the story then slowly starts to realize he is a girl, and have to seek out a beast or great evil that cursed her as a secondary character.
Give them a blajah shark plushy to kill people
(Totally don't own 5) -
03-25-2023, 02:22 PMSilverObi
He's talking to himself with his own accounts now... this man needs the number to a hotline but not sure which kind at this point
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03-25-2023, 02:45 PMRenaltHell yeah you can! What kind you want me to make?Quote:
Originally Posted by QiyoJoyo
Sorry you had a rough day and I hope the next is much better. -
03-25-2023, 02:47 PMRenaltI think I ate an entire gallon of sherbert when I was sick. I couldn't much taste it but it at least made me feel a bit better.Quote:
Originally Posted by SassyAssassin
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03-25-2023, 02:49 PMRenaltReminds me of one of my favorite quotes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolaina
"If you worry about what everyone is trying to do, you become a spectator and not a player." -
03-25-2023, 03:00 PMRenathrasThis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thelasoriao
It's not a hate mob, it's a valid point: Focus on good writing and a good story. It shouldn't matter the race/gender/orientation of people as long as they're good characters. One doesn't have to be an ambiguously asexual 12 foot tall 10,000 year old white guy with three eyes to recognize Emet-Selch is a well written character.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitanMenII
The style of his comment is somewhat brusque, but the core point is correct. And blocking someone who disagrees with you is far closer to a "hate mob" than someone voicing his position that the focus should be on good writing.
.
Besides which:
Quina was non-binary (or...simultaneously binary?) before it was cool, being s/he. If FF9 was made now, Quina's pronouns would probably be they/them. Japan isn't all on board with the social justice train, but they're fine with it at the same time. They aren't actively promoting it, but they won't back down if in countries where it's not popular or allowed - unlike, say, virtue signaling Disney that plays it up in the West then quietly removes their LGBT stuff in Muslim majority countries, etc. Japan also doesn't tend to focus on it. If it's part of someone's character, it just is. In Outlaw Star, one of the characters was very obviously and explicitly gay. But it wasn't really relevant. It was part of his character, not HIS ENTIRE CHARACTER. That's the RIGHT way to write characters - LGBT or cis as a cowboy action hero that's also straight as a supermassive black hole jet. Casual things done off screen and not making a big deal of it; that's actually the RIGHT way to write characters.
Hell, all the things in Il Mheg go by "they", as do SOME of the Lopporits, while others go by he and she, indicating they actually ARE gendered beings that recognize a non-binary (whereas in Il Mehg, it's possible they just don't have genders in the first place)
You also have (ambiguously) Ryne and Gaia.
We aren't exactly drowning in straight couples. Offhand, there are only four I can think of - Moonbrida's parents, the Chais, the cute couple from the Goldsmith quest, and the Twins mom and dad. That's it, and I had to stop and think a bit for some of those. There might be random "straight" NPCs in the sense of parents to children, but we don't really run into people that are expressly STRAIGHT or that talk about their straightness.
Both Hauchefaunt (especially in the original Japanese) and Zenos were absolutely infatuated with your character (meaning they're gay or at least bi if your character is a male, in addition to Zenos being combatsexual), and Graha somewhat seems to be as well. Alise is into your character as well, so if you're female, she's gay/bi for you. Both she and Graha are as main as main characters can get. Then there are the aforementioned Fey of Il Mehg and the Lopporits.
I'm not sure what more you want. A main character to "come out" to you? A bunch of homosexual couples with children that are also somehow main characters? An NC17 rating with same-sex sex scenes? If it's just two guys that appear to be close hugging, you'll write that off as "only implied", but this is a E for Everyone game, so they aren't going to address sexual themes in general. I'm not sure what more you want. For all we know, Y'Shtola is lesbian. She's definitely quick to shoot down most men (at least, the ones that she doesn't consider friends - she's nicer to them), and has the strong will and not-quite-but-also-kinda butch thing going when she feels like it.
How would you even know she's NOT lesbian? It's not like you can tell by looking.
For all you know, we could already have SEVERAL LGBT main characters in the cast! They just don't wear their sexual/gender identities on their sleeves.
Does...does anyone want to tell him?Quote:
Originally Posted by TitanMenII
Go to non-Western cultures. You'll often find them FAR less accommodating than Western ones... <_<
"gay couple"Quote:
Originally Posted by DragonFlyy
"Wonderer's Palace"
...
...
...
"(Hard)"
XD
Sorry, sorry. I just couldn't help it. Even I have to be juvenile every now and again. XD
That said, I don't remember this one. Going to have to go and watch it... -
03-25-2023, 03:12 PMQiyoJoyo
Thanks my Friend. The Lalafell-Devil is in your debt. On your darkest day, i will come an kick shins in your name!
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03-25-2023, 03:21 PMRenalthttps://i.ibb.co/7r3hhqD/Untitled.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by QiyoJoyo
Perhaps my Lala Alt will. -
03-25-2023, 03:26 PMZanarkand-RonsoWhen the Potato Peels Back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renalt
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03-25-2023, 06:47 PMSotarisI mean, it sounds like the left in general.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thelasoriao
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03-25-2023, 09:57 PMNiceNox
3 minutes into the western side of the forum and my head is already about to commit 9th Umbral Calamity. As someone from Southeast Asia, I don't see much of the appeal of the force representation, as some of you call it "Token". In my opinion, it doesn't matter what sexuality the character is, the good character doesn't need to show its sex/gender, but its contributions and stands in the story and world-setting in general; having the character's "gender" or color as the main and sole quality implies that, besides its gender/color, it's nothing else. Having LGBTQ+ characters is not the problem, the problem is how that character's written and cooperated into the story, world, and setting. I don't want the character to be just a "black dude" or a "gay character", I want a character that plays it part in the story and the world, regardless of what it is.
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03-26-2023, 01:47 AMVelvet_Lunarfang
I will be like the people of Uganda and not acknowledge it
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03-26-2023, 02:23 AMHurlstoneIf only they where just 'not acknowledging it' and not introduce offences including death and life imprisonment...Quote:
Originally Posted by Velvet_Lunarfang
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03-26-2023, 02:54 AMMelorieWhat I don't understand is that when it's a hetero white character, they are already existing. But when it's not, then you need to put them in the story with an extremely tactical way otherwise it is a "token", you are "forcing". The game is full of little romantic stories and romance is a very powerful storytelling tool. You have entire fandoms around different ships. Making a crush or something to not be hetero has nothing to do with tokenize. Or putting a character that's not a white-haired with white skin person is not "forcing" PoC in the story. Besides, we have so many characters that are quite far from overly complex people that are sooo part of the world in the story, and yet just because they aren't gay I don't see anyone crying about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by NiceNox
I am from latin america and the culture of the land that I live is incredibly diverse. There are so many types of people from all sorts of queernesss. Yes, we do suffer with fundamentalist religion ideas, but that does not change the reality of the people that live here. The mythology is full of these people. Even the culture we usually consume the most in western culture like greek myths is hella gay. But if you put that in the story then you're forcing something? Actually diversifying and bringing characters of different backgrounds, cultures, skin colour, sexuality and putting it in the world building would make the history BETTER and not worse.
Besides, this whole "aww this is western culture!" is so stupid. You know what is western culture is as well? It is great at creating stereotypes of other cultures and reducing their complexities. That's what you are doing when you act like people being able to be in stories with different aspects of humanity represented is something exclusive to western culture. Conservative americans and europeans love to use other cultures as a token in other to justify their own prejudices. Don't get me wrong, I have tons of criticism to the whole marvelesque hollow way of including certain aspects of people in media, but still, buying this "old men yelling at clouds" from conservative people isn't going to help anyone.
Funny to see all this talk of "tolerance" from the same people that claims they love storytelling, but can't deal with a bunch of gays, or with a romance, or whatever. Tell me about lack of tolerance. -
03-26-2023, 04:40 AMNiceNoxLet me put it this way, if the story is set in the land where the prejudice and racism run rampant, very xenophobic, isolated, and homophobic, as well as that has very pale native inhabitants. Suddenly, despite the setting/lore, there's a dark-back character who is openly gay and tell everyone he meets that he is gay, yet, despite the setting of the location and lore, he serves no other purposes beside telling other people and players that he is dark and gay native, that, in my opinion, is what the token character is; the character than has no "character" and reason to be there beside to "be there" and make it more "inclusive" than it should be. Representation is good when it's not forceful and is flowing in the way the story progress, not just "just put one black man here and call it off" without serving any purpose. What I see in many western spheres is the notion of "just put gay or black characters here! What's so hard about that!" in which doesn't only disrupt the flow and logic of the world/setting, but instead of promoting diversity, they, on the contrary, also create the sense of animosity toward those people you want to represent as well, because, in the end, many people just want to play a good game, regardless of having representations or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Melorie
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03-26-2023, 04:42 AMCaptainLagbeardFor black characters, those complaints are pretty much always when it's something with a historical context. Writers adding black characters to places where there really weren't any.Quote:
Originally Posted by Melorie
Lets reverse the situation... Imagine if you had something taking place in a fictional setting based off Africa, or even actual real world Africa, from several hundreds of years ago... And in that setting, you just had a random white guy in some tribe there who's presence is never acknowledged as special or anything, because "white people have always been in there".
Or they just take an already existing story, decide to do it all over again, except this time a character in it is black. Because shut up you racist.
As for the gay characters, writers have a very strong tendency to make that their entire character. Just "being gay" does not make for a very interesting character, specially when you know they were added in just to fill in a quota. -
03-26-2023, 05:14 AMMelorieDo you have an actual example where that happens? Because I can't honestly recall any. Most of the examples that people give are probably very out-of-reach, I have seen bad cases of representation and even then rarely match these fantastical examples. I would say that most of these examples are also bad because it is written by people with zero experience with these specific experiences. And even if this happens... It is just a bad story, it shouldn't be a big deal. Putting the blame on people that are gay or black or whatever and putting the blame on representation is a weak argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by NiceNox
Why should black people or gay people serve a purpose? Why the rest of the people are ok to be there without a purpose? Your own argument to justify your vision is part of the thing you criticize.
So many people get all teary-eyed when there is a story about prejudice against, I don't know, dragons or beast tribes or whatever, and then if you put a gay person that deals with it (like Dragon Age Inquisition with Dorian, a superb enjoyable companion that trust us with his story), then suddenly you can't enjoy your game anymore? That is ridiculous. I thought that people that enjoy stories are able to embrace all the journeys that people and places go, that's what histories are about.
But at the same time, that complain comes from people that know next to nothing about history. They don't realize how diverse most commerce hubs were. There is examples of that even here, on this thread, of a guy crying how Raubahn is a black guy in a "spaniard place". It is a troll, but that is a normal argument I have to see from people that barely ever read a history book on the period that they defend it was a certain way. Most of the time it comes from people that believe in a pure white Europe, for example, which is very far from the truth. Or even an all-black Africa. Like, these places are actually huge continents that had trading hubs and a deep story with Middle-east/Africa/Asia in some parts. It is a poor vision of how the story was, and the worst of all is when you go to a fantasy setting and demands some type of historical accuracy. The idea of what most people have of "medieval" for example, is poor as fuck. It is based on a bunch of fantasies they read and have little to do with the lives of medieval people.Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard
There are TONS of non-interesting character in all media. Literally a guy being gay and not interesting should not be a big deal. Fact is, if there is a "quota" there is a demand for that. It makes MONEY. People want to see these kind of histories. A lot of company milks on that and make mediocre media, but that is the same for every other subject. What is the point of acting like this is such a big deal? There is bad storytelling everywhere, acting like putting someone gay or black is the source of that is ridiculous and serves nothing.
I am tired fantastical histories of brave western soldiers that go kill people in other parts of the world. But, I guess, there is a demand for that. You know what I do? I go and consume good media. I don't go crying in forums how I CAN'T see that in my game because I can't deal with it, how this should not exist, blablabla. You are surprised that there are weak histories out there being popular? Oh, colour me surprised. This has nothing to do with representation ruining things, there are simply a demand for meh stories out there. -
03-26-2023, 05:28 AMCaptainLagbeardExcept, you are here, crying about it. Coping with the fact that there was in fact not billions of black people in medieval Europe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Melorie
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03-26-2023, 05:32 AMMelorieWhere did I said that there were billions of black people in medieval europe? See? You people are always so sensitive. I said that many people that act like someone not being white in a certain setting most of the time know next to zero about history and how complex it is. You are so dumb, you go and buy the same extremes and modern ideas of 8 or 80, black and white, y'all criticize. You cry regarding how people are obsessed with race but the ones that are actually obsessed with it are yourselves. The american concept of race doesn't exist in the rest of world's history. It's funny, really. Stop being such a simpleton and go see how complex the world is. Go take a look at the black people in The Garden of Earthly Delights from Hieronymus Bosch, perhaps?Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard
I'm not here crying because there is no representation. I literally just said I find that diversifying the different stories around human journeys is always good, and don't see what the big deal is. The ones crying about it are the ones in the thread acting like seeing a gay dude in their video-game somehow ruins it. -
03-26-2023, 05:44 AMCaptainLagbeard
Sure, diversity of characters is good, but most normal people want diversity of ideas.
Even in a fantasy setting, if a character looks completely out of place, it's going to make the story feel quite silly and will take you out of it, and I do acknowledge that I am saying this as the forum avatar still has my cat hoodie from my crafting glams... -
03-26-2023, 05:48 AMMelorieYou can't bring diversity of ideas without diversity of characters. The different ideas we form comes from different places, regions, cultures, ideas of beauty, ways of dressing up, relationship with nature, bla, bla, bla. What is the point of bringing different ideas and excluding the variations of people that come with it?Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard
Maybe a character looking out of place can bring a new story. Maybe he comes from a distant place, maybe he is trading, traveling, maybe his grandmother ended up there and now it isn't a big deal. There is literally no need to fuss over this kind of explanation like it ruins a story. A good story won't be bad because of it.
And if a fantasy story allows for people being out of place, like your cat hoodie glam, then maybe embrace it already? And use it as a tool for storytelling wisely. I am tired of white-haired people, personally. Would love to see someone out-of-place in our party. -
03-26-2023, 05:52 AMCaptainLagbeardIn most places around world historically, you had different countries with very different cultures, right next to each other. The people looked the same, but had different ideas. It's a very narrow minded way of thinking that you think all people of a single "race" are completely homogeneous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Melorie
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03-26-2023, 05:56 AMMelorieI never said that. I said that if you want different ideas but can't accept and don't want to see different characters, maybe YOU have a narrow mind of what different ideas can be. If you enjoy stories, there's no reason for you to not want new perspectives from different people and different places.Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard
I agree that even inside a certain group of people that share genetic characteristics, there is not a consensus of ideas. But that is beyond the point of the discussion? The discussion here is how people treat anything that's not status quo as "a token from western culture" and how that's, well, ridiculous, and against what the world was and is. -
03-26-2023, 06:21 AMCaptainLagbeardThe point still stands, populations were largely ethnically homogeneous, but not ideologically. So when you place a story in a historical setting, or make a fantasy setting based off of that history, then you start adding things that don't fit in the particular setting they pretty blatantly stand out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Melorie
Just to bring the conversation back towards FF 16 a little, Yoshi-P has said the game's world, or at least the corner of the world the game takes place in, is inspired by Medieval Europe, which was at least 99.99% white. And then people got mad that ~0.01% wasn't being represented in the game. So it's either continue on course, or add in a random black guy there for the sole reason that idiots online cried about him not being there. -
03-26-2023, 08:33 AMpurgatori
You make this sound like some sort of new thing, but I will set my life's savings aflame if characters like Laguna and Kiros are straight.
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03-26-2023, 09:01 AMTehmon
Ultimately the whole FF16 race debacle boils down to a stupid irrelevant question being asked, and it got a stupid irrelevant answer by Yoshi-P.
If asking '' are there any black people in your game '' is seriously an important question you want to ask a director of a game, you must be out of your damn mind. I am always craving for more gay characters in video games, but I'd never ask anything of the sort like '' are there gay characters in the game???? '' from any developer. It's such an awkward goddamn question.
But Yoshi-P's answer or rather justification was pretty dumb as well. Many medieval European inspired fantasy worlds are filled to the brim with '' diversity '' and those limitations you put on yourself and the game you are creating are wholly artificial and self-imposed. And ultimately as I've browsed through all the trailers and pictures of FF16, it's not really heavy-handed with the medieval European inspirations to begin with, so the '' race '' thing being one thing they are seemingly holding fast to seems silly. The whole '' while the characters might not be diverse, they have a diversity of ideas and backgrounds and stories!! '' thing also kind of irked me, as if you could only have one or the other! But there's a kernel of truth there as well, sadly it's generally used AGAINST having diverse characters, as if to maintain the current hierarchy and disregard diversity entirely.
Even so, I don't think Yoshi-P has any ill intent though and I think he just built the foundation of FF16 on a generic vision of medieval European inspired fantasy, and generally speaking those worlds do tend to look a certain way in terms of characters and people in them, mostly white, if not all white. I don't believe there was any deliberate decision to exclude anyone, just the dev team following common tropes and that's that. That doesn't make the game '' worse '' either for not including certain type of characters, and to say that would be weird, EXTREMELY weird. -
03-26-2023, 09:08 AMEliaStormblade
If people can make a generic medieval/oldtimey anything, they can do so for Europe as well. No one will begrudge you for not adding white and black people to games where the setting is based on Feudal Japan. I don't get the whinging.
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03-26-2023, 11:53 AMRaoabolic
I know this is a troll but would you still play XIV if it had it's own WoW 9.1.5 patch and sudden lore changes that technically wouldn't break it(think something along the lines of Chromie from WoW)?