Is SE planning to deal with ilvl cheese people?

I just leave when I get CT, saves me a lot of boredom. When I get them we wipe so much anyway that its not worth doing it for the tomes

A quick and easy solution is for the game to ignore player item level when you queue through the roulette and determine raid eligibility by character level.

If your item level is below the minimum requirement, you will be scaled up to that.

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Originally Posted by CamuiKushi

Even if they fixed ilevel cheese, there's not much that can be done about people who don't unlock further raids. As other have suggested, spinning the optional alliance raids out into another roulette with its own separate rewards might help.

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This. It's not just new players but people who make alt characters know full well that they have complete access to raid roulette without having to do further raids and having to run the risk of getting those raids.

This would probably be hated, but what if we extended the raid roulette requirements to require unlocking the HW raids too? Alliance Raid roulette gives really good experience and it's one of the main roulettes people do if they're not doing all of them. The reward is already there if you're leveling.

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Originally Posted by NekoMataMata

This. It's not just new players but people who make alt characters know full well that they have complete access to raid roulette without having to do further raids and having to run the risk of getting those raids.

This would probably be hated, but what if we extended the raid roulette requirements to require unlocking the HW raids too? Alliance Raid roulette gives really good experience and it's one of the main roulettes people do if they're not doing all of them. The reward is already there if you're leveling.

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I'm afraid this is the reality of the situation. If there were people queueing for other raids then the non-ilvl cheesing people would get them, because they are the only people elligble for it. The way the roulette is structured it favors CT raids above and beyond any others. It only needs a single person forcing CT to create a CT run but it would take the roulette an entire 24 group to not force CT to have a chance at another one.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

Then you'll have another 500 threads from the same 20 or so ppl pretending to be the majority crying that they're being "gated out of content" because they need to learn mechanics... just like with steps of faith when HW launched and shinryu normal with stormblood launched. They even did it to solo MSQs like the Lakshmi solo msq...

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I would like to laugh at them. I will also take this moment to do so.

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Originally Posted by OskarXCI

A quick and easy solution is for the game to ignore player item level when you queue through the roulette and determine raid eligibility by character level.

If your item level is below the minimum requirement, you will be scaled up to that.

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I think that way you'd still get the 50's mostnof the time because theres almost always someone that is new and needs to do them.

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Originally Posted by Wolwosh

I think that way you'd still get the 50's mostnof the time because theres almost always someone that is new and needs to do them.

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But it negates entering the roulette naked. You can be ilvl 130 at lvl 90. You get still synced to 590 upon entering.
At the same time, when someone lacks the gear for the 2nd one (but otherwise its unlocked), and starts the roulette. That player can now also get the raid while lacking the gear, and still be in sync (it does require luck then, but again, not an issue).

There is barely any gain for someone behind, but disrupts those that want to exploit the system.

It is a nice idea, but i think it can be improved: Upon starting the next expansion, the roulette now requires you to have all the raids of the previous expansion unlocked. Using the system of forced upsync based on lvl, it means all raids then will always be available, and when lazy you cannot do the roulette anymore. Since we look at the next expansion instead of 'current'. Its only the newest raids that arent forced upon the people. But as they are the newest, they are popular anyway and by that more likely to show.

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Originally Posted by UkcsAlias

But it negates entering the roulette naked. You can be ilvl 130 at lvl 90. You get still synced to 590 upon entering.
At the same time, when someone lacks the gear for the 2nd one (but otherwise its unlocked), and starts the roulette. That player can now also get the raid while lacking the gear, and still be in sync (it does require luck then, but again, not an issue).

There is barely any gain for someone behind, but disrupts those that want to exploit the system.

It is a nice idea, but i think it can be improved: Upon starting the next expansion, the roulette now requires you to have all the raids of the previous expansion unlocked. Using the system of forced upsync based on lvl, it means all raids then will always be available, and when lazy you cannot do the roulette anymore. Since we look at the next expansion instead of 'current'. Its only the newest raids that arent forced upon the people. But as they are the newest, they are popular anyway and by that more likely to show.

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They did that for Bozja, it can be tinkered to work in Alliance raids, in how you get put to 80 with all your skills and a flat Ilvl.

Cause after you beat an expansion. there is no reason you can't gear up faster than you can reach the .2-.3 of the expansions content.
<current expac excluded cause of how long it takes to gear>
so it's reasonable to upsync players who have reached that point.
[I could suggest adjusting ARR ilvls, but that would throw out the ideas of gearing intentionally with low ilvl for stuff.<since min ilvl only does so much> but would help out remove the unnecessary extra AF gear. and direct people to tomes.]

all in all though. if we push for a solution one can be found.<doing nothing won't help anything>

I fail to see why you'd make then get all three coins.

After farming the glamour from aglaia I never want to step foot in there again.

CT raids need their own roulette or need to be trust enabled so they can be taken out of alliance raid roulette.

I think even if they do take away CT raid series off the roulette, the next raid people will likely cheese to get would be Void Ark so long the reward remains lopsided.

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Originally Posted by Imora

Why the hell would they make you use a coin from each of the three ARs to upgrade tomestone gear? Don't recall them doing this previously.

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then your memory is faulty, because they've done this every time. it's a way to make sure that the prior ones in the series are still run

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Originally Posted by Wolwosh

I just leave when I get CT, saves me a lot of boredom. When I get them we wipe so much anyway that its not worth doing it for the tomes

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Wait, you wipe on CT? That's possible?

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Originally Posted by NekoMataMata

This. It's not just new players but people who make alt characters know full well that they have complete access to raid roulet

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I still feel they need to change all of that and make unlocking ALL the content of an expension mandatory before being able to start the next one.

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

Wait, you wipe on CT? That's possible?

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Was gonna say, Srycus is like actually impossible to wipe on outside of some insane memery.
CT is mostly just condensed to Atomos & Ancient Flare, don't think I've seen a wipe on any of the other bosses in literal years.

Remember when CT was fun back when it was implemented? How we were desperate on the last boss so the meteors mechanic didn't wipe us all?

Well, legit new players who are experiencing this raid will never be able to feel the thrill.

So this proposal is to """"""try""""""" to make everyone happy. (because there will be someone who will cry their eyes out for anything, lol)

Rebalance of ALL RAIDS in roulettes to make it less braindead and more challenging/fun, with equally rebalanced rewards

Rebalance CAP, ILVL, HP or whatever is needed so all 24 ppl raids are able to show ITS LAST HARDER SCRIPTED MECHANIC, normally each boss "presents" you the mechs, then combines them till they hit difficulty cap, then repeat those mechs till is defeated (or we wipe). Well, balance the fight so we can get that last "difficult combined mech" script and, if we are all in our ep**n ilvl gear we should be able to defeat the boss right after that mechanic. That way, it won't be braindead boring and legit new people will actually enjoy the raid as it was originally implemented.

Yes, yes, yes, "but-i-dun-wanna-stay-30+-mins-on-a-raid" "I-wanna-my-#instantgratification-HP/EXP-or-gtfo-waaah" I can hear that already. Well, for that, rewards have to be upgraded BASED on ilvl and current level, so if a high level has to help a legit sprout throughout a 30+ min raid they get well rewarded, like a 30% upgrade or so.

That way ppl won't cheese ilvl and others can have fun on a real challenging raid (as how CT was on its days), ppl get well retributed, everyone happy.

Well... Till someone whine and make another thread and complain how they want 5 mins raid and get his char from 89 to 90 in one hit. :3

Peace!

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

Wait, you wipe on CT? That's possible?

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Absolutely. You've never had a run where people lose at a game of chicken with Phlegethon's second Ancient Flare?

Should just add a Crystal Tower Roulette at this point with how quick these tend to go now, I miss when I used to get the Nier raids with more frequency.

CT being mandatory now means that it should remain accessible and easy as it stands... so I'd say rebalance Void Ark to be a bit tougher since that's likely going to end up being the next Syrcus Tower,

I doubt iLvl cheese is that much of a problem. I think that it is mostly that the player base is a much bigger for the CT raids. They are mandatory, people may be levelling a job and their level is too low to access the next tier, the other raids are 100% optional, ftp are limited to CT and HW raids so that eliminates 3 out of 5 series, someone may not have completed HW regardless of their level, someone may be queuing CT specifically (relic weapon quest or just because).

Also, there is a lot of content in the game for someone starting to play just now. People may want to do their MSQ and unlocking all that side content takes a significant amount of time. I made a new character on the new DC and bought a level boost...there is an incredible amount of blue markers all over the maps and unlocking the optional ARs is not my priority.

I’d rather see them provide incentives to unlock the other raids by upping the rewards. Also, maybe move the initial quest givers to more “in your face” locations, maybe even give them a special marker with a new color: several new people in my former fc didn’t know of their existence. They can be easy to miss.

If they want to make it difficult to cheese the ilvl, have a system that detects if a persons ilvl drastically changes from when they queue for the raid to the end of the raid. If there is a dramatic ilvl jump, sends a flag to GMs for investigation.

Still wouldn't really change the outcome of always getting CT due to factors listed by so many others, but that is a way they could have a system to punish ilvl exploits.

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Originally Posted by Osteichthyes

If they want to make it difficult to cheese the ilvl, have a system that detects if a persons ilvl drastically changes from when they queue for the raid to the end of the raid. If there is a dramatic ilvl jump, sends a flag to GMs for investigation.

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that would be a lot of trouble for something that may have little to no effect in the end. Also, people can switch to different jobs, including crafters while waiting for the queue to pop.

Anyway, I find that non CT raids is not much an issue on my server. The other raids regularly pop (I got 2x Ivalice and 2x Nier out of 4 times queuing last week). Haven’t queued this week yet.

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

Wait, you wipe on CT? That's possible?

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I've seen so many people purposely die on these raids that it becomes actually funny at some points. Unless the entire alliance decides to derp on Ancient Flare in CT and blow up the ice shields in ST with the Amon boss or the Angra Mainyu on WOD with doom.

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Originally Posted by Ralphe2449

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...16/dgsdgsd.jpg

This is getting a bit much

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Remove the ilvl requirements from most alliance raids (With the exception of EW alliance raids)
See the definition of chaos with your own eyes
Have fun because this is going to be fun :)

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Originally Posted by Osteichthyes

If they want to make it difficult to cheese the ilvl, have a system that detects if a persons ilvl drastically changes from when they queue for the raid to the end of the raid. If there is a dramatic ilvl jump, sends a flag to GMs for investigation.

Still wouldn't really change the outcome of always getting CT due to factors listed by so many others, but that is a way they could have a system to punish ilvl exploits.

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This is easier said than done and I don't think it helps that it would have to be specifically targeted to the one roulette. We're allowed to to gear up to match the item level for the duty, as one would ideally do for ultimates. This problem (with the questionable level of use) is a side effect / loophole of that and (as folks continue to mention) one of many factors in CT coming up in roulette.

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Originally Posted by Osteichthyes

If they want to make it difficult to cheese the ilvl, have a system that detects if a persons ilvl drastically changes from when they queue for the raid to the end of the raid. If there is a dramatic ilvl jump, sends a flag to GMs for investigation.

Still wouldn't really change the outcome of always getting CT due to factors listed by so many others, but that is a way they could have a system to punish ilvl exploits.

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it's a good idea, but has some holes.

it would have to distinguish between Armor Sets, or count your highest ilvl based on gear on hand.(which can be gamed)
the first one here is pretty simple but someone would complain cause they didn't save their gear to a set. the other would put way more effort that many would thing SE would not.
(despite their small chunk of interest in keeping old content populated)

As for someone else saying people change gear whilst waiting/crafting.
It only would take into account the class that queued, the set, and/or Armor. once inside and after the roulette ends.
Which will need to block regearing after getting in to the instance, including locking being able to switch gear at all.
<which would annoy people if they're doing it for a quest, or any relic that needs to be presently used, yet they forgot>

Good idea, but it would need to be ironed out.
<since finding a good idea that would settle most expectations. yet not so consuming that SE wouldn't consider it>

The only way to "solve" the ilvl cheesing is to either:

A) Put the CT raids into their own roulette/add to MSQ roulette(which would still require a bunch of tweeking to make it work)

Or

B) Change how AR works so that you can only access it after having cleared all items that are contained within, taking into account the job level that you queued as(somewhat like how Mentor Roulette needs you to have cleared everything already to be able to access it, just narrowed down to only alliance raids), and not having ilvl be a deciding factor - which could definitely lead to some very frustrating runs, but if people are refusing to do stuff/put on their recommended gear, well, GMs will be a bit busier.

Edit: Or change it so that the EXP rewarded by CT raids is 1/10 of what any of the other raids give since it is 1/1000000 of the attention needed to do them

I still fail to understand why you guys are in favor of forcing a playstyle, which is against ToS in normal circumstances to begin with.

Just don't do the roulette if you don't want s random raid.

I regularly get the Void Ark ones. I hate Dun Scaith. I do it anyway, because that's what the roulette gives me.

They'll never fix it so at this point I would rather they just rework the CT raids to give them more interesting mechanics. I don't care about all us veteran players, I care about the fact that new players get 3 uninteresting raids with very few mechanics. These aren't exciting at all for sprouts and it sucks that a new player's first experience in a 24 man is something so bland that everyone just steamrolls. I don't think they need to make them difficult, but they should be something more than a turn off your brain and roll your face on the keyboard raid. It'll also resolve the ilevel cheese if people actually have to put any sort of effort into them.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

If you take off all your gear before queuing for alliance raid your ilvl becomes too low to queue into anything but the crystal tower series, and as crystal tower is way quicker and gives the same exp, people do this on purpose to get a quick roullete

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Does this work on trials because I keep getting the same crap ones and I need something different, even if it's Ifrit.

Some of you that are so bothered by the cheese really need to ask yourselves why you do the roulette and what is that you get that you can't get some other way.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

Some of you that are so bothered by the cheese

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Well I like alliance raids and I like doing roulettes but get sick of getting the same one 90% of the time. It's completely fair to be annoyed when your "roulette" consists of only 3 choices (and the most awful 3 out of all alliance raids) because people refuse to do the others.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

really need to ask yourselves why you do the roulette and what is that you get that you can't get some other way.

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This literally applies more to people who unequip gear than it does anyone else lol. Why even queue for this roulette if you need to remove all your gear first so that you ONLY get the first raids? Go do some fates, or a quest, anything else.

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Originally Posted by GrumbleBeard

This literally applies more to people who unequip gear than it does anyone else lol. Why even queue for this roulette if you need to remove all your gear first so that you ONLY get the first raids? Go do some fates, or a quest, anything else.

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Factually incorrect. There's:

1) People who need it for the MSQ (every single person going through it), and a single person needing a CT raid will drag 23 other people into it.

2) People who need CT for ShB Relics (Need a whopping 15 of them per relic). This is the main culprit. People want to knock out 2 birds with one stone. Unequipping items to guarantee a CT raid makes it go fast, and gets them progress for relic, blame that one on the lack of foresight of the FFXIV Dev team. And the solution is ridiculously simple: Simply make it use the Alliance Raid to gain the Relic item INSTEAD OF CT RAIDS..

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

Some of you that are so bothered by the cheese really need to ask yourselves why you do the roulette and what is that you get that you can't get some other way.

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Deveryn, please. Imagine I give you a deck of cards, shuffle it up, but then put the Ace of Spades on top of it and told you to draw the card on top. What you're saying is no different than "What do you mean it's rigged, I shuffled it before, so it's random".

What do we get out of it? Maybe a cooler alliance raid that won't bore us to death and actually keep us engaged. Orbonne Monastery is engaging and makes me appreciate the gameplay. CT makes me appreciate the 1 and 2 keys on my keyboard and that's all.

The easiest thing for them to do is just to lower the ilvl sync of the CT raids to the point where people actually have to do the mechanics again. It was honestly needed all the way back in ARR.

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Originally Posted by Fyrebrand

I would be more a fan of adjusting and restoring Crystal Tower content to actually represent the challenge level it was meant to be when it launched, so that mechanics aren't skipped and we can actually see what the bosses are meant to be like.

https://i.imgur.com/O3NUP8l.jpg

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After a decade of skipping his mechanics, I still remember them. How every odd.

Just FYI, once you’ve queued up you can re-equip your gear and nobody in CT will know you cheesed it. Have a great weekend.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

Deveryn, please. Imagine I give you a deck of cards, shuffle it up, but then put the Ace of Spades on top of it and told you to draw the card on top. What you're saying is no different than "What do you mean it's rigged, I shuffled it before, so it's random".

What do we get out of it? Maybe a cooler alliance raid that won't bore us to death and actually keep us engaged. Orbonne Monastery is engaging and makes me appreciate the gameplay. CT makes me appreciate the 1 and 2 keys on my keyboard and that's all.

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I'm not doing that at all. I (and others) have acknowledged that the odds are unfortunately stacked on something with only 13 possibilities.

You think I'm trying to be slick or something, but there are people want a 1 in 10 shot at something different, which is very inconsiderate of those that might actually need to do CT for one reason or another. Why should they suffer long queues? The team isn't going to push that kind of change.

I'm not against it. I don't see them adjusting the fights anytime soon, at least not until Duty Support is all caught up. I also feel like this is something they might not do at all because you don't want the first alliance raids to be that much more difficult for people. Rather than a slight change, they'll likely favor no change.

All that being said, I'm in favor of taking a more proactive approach as things just take time to get looked at or even changed. If you want to do Orbonne, run Orbonne.

Hell, instead of fighting the cheese, why not join in? Get some lower level gear to swap to if you find yourself in CT. Make that a thing.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

2) People who need CT for ShB Relics (Need a whopping 15 of them per relic). This is the main culprit. People want to knock out 2 birds with one stone. Unequipping items to guarantee a CT raid makes it go fast, and gets them progress for relic, blame that one on the lack of foresight of the FFXIV Dev team. And the solution is ridiculously simple: Simply make it use the Alliance Raid to gain the Relic item INSTEAD OF CT RAIDS..

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Why in the world do you think anyone looking for specific relic updates (CT is also included in relics for ARR and HW so it's not just ShB btw) would not direct queue instead of relying on cheesing a roulette?

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Why in the world do you think anyone looking for specific relic updates (CT is also included in relics for ARR and HW so it's not just ShB btw) would not direct queue instead of relying on cheesing a roulette?

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It's where you play the long game and "farm" up the relic drops over 15 days to snag up 15 roulette rewards on top of that.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Factually incorrect. There's:

1) Simply make it use the Alliance Raid to gain the Relic item INSTEAD OF CT RAIDS..

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They will never do that because their main concern is to cater to new players, they don’t want new players to wait around or go completely helpless into duties. Thats why every damn time there’s some event, whatever gives the most tomes it’s always crystal, labirinth, world of darkness and of course, preatorium. I wish they removed it from msq, better for all of us.

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Originally Posted by SassyAssassin

They will never do that because their main concern is to cater to new players, they don’t want new players to wait around or go completely helpless into duties. Thats why every damn time there’s some event, whatever gives the most tomes it’s always crystal, labirinth, world of darkness and of course, preatorium. I wish they removed it from msq, better for all of us.

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Actually, there's a tendency to push Orbonne or Void for moogletomes. If they ever had CT in there, it was likely related to something major coming up. (but watch it come up for the 6.3 build up :D )