Whatever happened to “We don’t balance fights around healers needing to do damage?”

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Originally Posted by UkcsAlias

For example: you get a GCD dps ability that can have 2 charges, but relies on 15 ticks from the DoT to charge up (or 1 charge and not on GCD). It adds a second button that needs some spare awareness, its not disruptive your normal damage rotation/or disrupting potential heals. Yet it adds something else to watch for. Its a simple thing they can add, and even with little damage does something.

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Mmm, I suggested a button that just has a 15sec CD (so you know you're gonna use it every 6th GCD) and shortening the DOT down to 12sec duration (so you use it every 5th GCD), but that on it's own would be very barebones. So I wanted to add a gauge that builds by casting Glare, DOT ticks from Dia and a bigger amount per 15sec GCD cast (to incentivize using it asap), and then the player spends that gauge on a big damage-neutral healing tool. We have 'healing feeds damage' with lilies, this would be 'damage feeds healing'. I even made a video to try to demonstrate the 'new' rotation. But I think the more important part is that the damage and healing kits are more intertwined. Old Cleric Stance made it feel like you were swapping between two completely seperate kits, the 'healing half' and the 'damage half'. Now the stance dance is gone, but they haven't really done much to make it feel like one cohesive kit. The closest we've got is 'some things are damage neutral' and even then, it took over 2 years for Misery to be damage neutral.

People complain and want changes and when those changes come they will complain again and do a 180 like always-

Healers wanted more tight healing chekcs you got that in this tier than a big chunk of the healers started crying that they actually have to properly mitigate and heal instead of pressing random ogcds and still getting through the fight.

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Originally Posted by SenzorialBoundries

People complain and want changes and when those changes come they will complain again and do a 180 like always-

Healers wanted more tight healing chekcs you got that in this tier than a big chunk of the healers started crying that they actually have to properly mitigate and heal instead of pressing random ogcds and still getting through the fight.

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by contrast many healers have said its great they have something to heal. To yoshida's face no less during hte 14hr stream

many of those supposed healers that have quit are sylphies or freeloaders. Savage and extreme should require a modicum of skill with a healing kit at minimum. The fact that many pf parties had "healers" before then with <70% uptime illustrates how little skill most of them had and were simply there for free loot since only diehard skilled healers remained. The rest of the good ones quit in shb

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Originally Posted by SenzorialBoundries

People complain and want changes and when those changes come they will complain again and do a 180 like always-

Healers wanted more tight healing chekcs you got that in this tier than a big chunk of the healers started crying that they actually have to properly mitigate and heal instead of pressing random ogcds and still getting through the fight.

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Have you considered that the healers that asked for more healing to do, and the healers that cried when there was more healing to do, might be two seperate groups of players? Also, I've never really asked for 'more healing to do' because I've seen many times, over each raid tier, how quickly that 'more healing to do' falls away thanks to gear scaling, hence I ask 'can we have a bit more of an interesting DPS rotation'. I've complained, but I sure as heck haven't 180'd on things

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Originally Posted by SenzorialBoundries

People complain and want changes and when those changes come they will complain again and do a 180 like always-

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Who asked for SCH to lose 80% of its damage kit... seriously, who? And who asked for Aero III to be completely removed?

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Originally Posted by SenzorialBoundries

People complain and want changes and when those changes come they will complain again and do a 180 like always-

Healers wanted more tight healing chekcs you got that in this tier than a big chunk of the healers started crying that they actually have to properly mitigate and heal instead of pressing random ogcds and still getting through the fight.

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Here's a spicy take.

The healing check still isn't enough. Kefka hit far harder and repeatedly forced you to throw a ton of HPS in very tight windows. Even E12S pt1 threw more damage overall IMHO. This tier just chucked some moderately spicy dots around which occasionally gives me reason to throw regen again. Remember when we would have an almost constant regen uptime back in the day? Stuff used to hit hard enough to warrant it.

I think you'll find that yeah, it's the mitigation check portion of things that's frustrating a lot of people because it's just not in our own hands for the much part. Tank was late with their cooldown and now the dot is eating 30% HP a tick? Healer problem. It's annoying within my own static, I dread to think how irritating it'll be in pugs.

Throw the damage at me faster, force people out of aoe range, make me triage. That's a healer check. Not this 105% of our max hp in an aoe + bleed every few minutes.

This. Quit healing. Things get better then

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Originally Posted by SenzorialBoundries

People complain and want changes and when those changes come they will complain again and do a 180 like always-

Healers wanted more tight healing chekcs you got that in this tier than a big chunk of the healers started crying that they actually have to properly mitigate and heal instead of pressing random ogcds and still getting through the fight.

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The healers who asked for more heal checks are actually the dps spamming healers who got by on just oGCD's. We're having a lot of fun with healing this tier. The dps aspect is still poor, but the incoming damage this tier is a good step in the right direction.

The healers who quit are the healbots, the "if you want to dps roll a dps" self proclaimed REAL healers who are frustrated because blindly spamming Medica's and afk'ing isn't working anymore.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Here's a spicy take.

The healing check still isn't enough. Kefka hit far harder and repeatedly forced you to throw a ton of HPS in very tight windows. Even E12S pt1 threw more damage overall IMHO. This tier just chucked some moderately spicy dots around which occasionally gives me reason to throw regen again. Remember when we would have an almost constant regen uptime back in the day? Stuff used to hit hard enough to warrant it.

I think you'll find that yeah, it's the mitigation check portion of things that's frustrating a lot of people because it's just not in our own hands for the much part. Tank was late with their cooldown and now the dot is eating 30% HP a tick? Healer problem. It's annoying within my own static, I dread to think how irritating it'll be in pugs.

Throw the damage at me faster, force people out of aoe range, make me triage. That's a healer check. Not this 105% of our max hp in an aoe + bleed every few minutes.

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I would argue that even though kefka his heal check was harder it’s even worse uninspired healing mechanics. Stormblood was the era of “heal too 100 % max hp or die” and it’s not a good design in my eyes. But yeah fights we’re really fun and cool otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

The healers who asked for more heal checks are actually the dps spamming healers who got by on just oGCD's. We're having a lot of fun with healing this tier. The dps aspect is still poor, but the incoming damage this tier is a good step in the right direction.

The healers who quit are the healbots, the "if you want to dps roll a dps" self proclaimed REAL healers who are frustrated because blindly spamming Medica's and afk'ing isn't working anymore.

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I've heard that SGE can do P8S phase 1 without a single 'DPS loss GCD' so it could still be increased further ;)

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Originally Posted by Mortex

I would argue that even though kefka his heal check was harder it’s even worse uninspired healing mechanics. Stormblood was the era of “heal too 100 % max hp or die” and it’s not a good design in my eyes. But yeah fights we’re really fun and cool otherwise.

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Always fun to see someone get stuck with the long debuff in Heartless Archangel because they were missing 54 HP when the server snapshotted the cast (but were actually full when the castbar filled to max) Though I think Neo Exdeath was pretty cool for healer/tank interaction, as the healing pump you had to do to counter the damage would give lots of threat, and the tanks would constantly have their threat lead reset because Grand Cross featured aggro resets. Also the tanks didn't want to be in tank stance because that loses damage, so a certain bearded streamer came up with the idea of 'just dont try to get aggro before the earthshakers, and cover the WHM'. Stuff like that is cool to come up with, little tricks that allow everyone in the team to get more damage, but now aggro is not a mechanic anymore, tank stance can be up without any penalty, healing generates less aggro than ever, etc. Over time we're having more and more things removed for the sake of 'well this is an inconvenience', but it also removes room for the devs to be creative with the inconvenience as a mechanic.

Actually, on the subject of 'creative mechanics' can we have a boss like Loatheb? Every time the healers cast a heal they get a debuff for 15s that means they can't cast a heal. Maybe then the 'healers should only heal' players would throw some Glares.

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Originally Posted by SenzorialBoundries

People complain and want changes and when those changes come they will complain again and do a 180 like always-

Healers wanted more tight healing chekcs you got that in this tier than a big chunk of the healers started crying that they actually have to properly mitigate and heal instead of pressing random ogcds and still getting through the fight.

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Those "tight healing checks" always fade away with more gear and we're back the the exact same basic problem as always:

Healer downtime is boring.

FOund this little nugget from mrhappy interview all the way back from 4.2 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...NwqZTwPUw/edit

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First of all, we do not expect healers to contribute to DPS. However we know a lot of the cutting edge players enjoy this aspect about the job and that those progressing in the raids early on use it help clear the fights. We decided to make it so that the idea was more approachable and less punishing so that if a player wants to try it, they aren’t sacrificing all of their healing capabilities to do so like they were with the old Cleric Stance. We didn’t like seeing healers doing entire dungeons in Cleric Stance, especially if they forget to switch back and heal!

That being said, and I want you to really reinforce this to your viewers, I firmly believe it shouldn’t be mandatory and we do NOT have the expectation of them to DPS.

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I only bring this up because this was the most recent position that Yoshi-P said on the whole matter. He may of since changed on this stance with SGE's whole inclusion per say but man, it does make you think.

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Originally Posted by Maltothoris

FOund this little nugget from mrhappy interview all the way back from 4.2 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...NwqZTwPUw/edit



I only bring this up because this was the most recent position that Yoshi-P said on the whole matter. He may of since changed on this stance with SGE's whole inclusion per say but man, it does make you think.

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Aged like room temperature milk