Yoshida-san: Please Give Us a BETTER System for Relics and Future 2.0 Challenges!

I dunno but I find this no different than the relic weapons you get from Dynamis in FFXI.

In short, they're both time consuming and money sinks regardless of them being luck based or not.

Except you can buy the Dynamis currency in XI while in this game, the beastmen seals drop straight into your inventory and are U/U.

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Originally Posted by Alegis

And u dont even want to understand the true intention behind this.

You are may not be able to think that far, but there are many ways to make it more fair but not faster/easier at the same time. Ppl even ask for difficulty instead of luck with drops.

To see some progress instead of only crossing fingers for random stuff all the time.

Would you call CoP (in the first years, idk how difficult it is anymore) easy just because it didnt had any RNG in there?
RNG ≠ Difficulty.

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I'd call CoP in 2004 difficult because it was difficult in design, as in the battle related content was difficulty. Nowadays it's easy because you can level past it's level range (designed and balanced around level 30 players) and blow through it solo.

Difficulty = Subjective, no matter how you spin it it comes down to what you personally deem as difficult or not.

Teh, yea screw that shit

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

If all the hardcores have weapons, why does the casuals not team up to beat it? Is it because the onyl thing they can do is waiting for the hardcores to carry them?

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It is because they have a real, more active life than the hardcore player. For everything you do in this life, the more you do it the better you become at it. It's a fact. You cannot expect casual players to find 8 other casual players (because in this game nobody plays in random parties if they already have a ls) that know perfectly what they are doing if they onlyplay 1-2 hours a couple of days a week. Things based on luck are only for hardcore, with no social/work/school life, players. SE is making ths game less and less friendly for casual players.

Already sick of Hamlets. So much work and no reward yet. Really SE? You need to change this shit, I'm tired of not being rewarded

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

If all the hardcores have weapons, why does the casuals not team up to beat it? Is it because the onyl thing they can do is waiting for the hardcores to carry them?

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They team uP, but. Let's take Garuda. Casuals run with. Normal gear, single meld and Af with crappy or no acc. The blm burn needed stacked classes and double / triple meld gear , plus 8 players that know how to Play. So, when the casuals worked the gear for it, SE, killed the blm burn. One whole week. Meaning, all hardcore ls got their weaPons. Right now, no one does Garuda because its way harder to kill it and no hardcore player does it, because they already got all the weapons. So you have only noobs forming parties and getting wiped after af. Not fun. They should have deleted all weapons from that week or let Garuda be the way it was released. These Af weapons I don't even need to comment. It's 99% Of ppl raging on the forums. Even the hardcore are. They will get it anyway. Took me 1-2 months to get all af gear. I took my time. But I know Ppl that got all in 4 days. Didn't sleep , eat , went to work. Garuda , Some people stayed 24 hours straight farming the weapons before patch. SE, can't base a game on that. Luck based won't help nobody. Making things harder wont help 50% of the playerbase. It has tO be a balance. The Af gear had balance. Why change it just because some no life ppl did it in 4 days. Normal people are still doing it. I always see shouts for AF gear. Nothing for Garuda. Wonder why?

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Originally Posted by LuxLux

It is because they have a real, more active life than the hardcore player. For everything you do in this life, the more you do it the better you become at it. It's a fact. You cannot expect casual players to find 8 other casual players (because in this game nobody plays in random parties if they already have a ls) that know perfectly what they are doing if they onlyplay 1-2 hours a couple of days a week. Things based on luck are only for hardcore, with no social/work/school life, players. SE is making ths game less and less friendly for casual players.

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So you are expecting hardcores to carry you and win? and wtf does luck has to do with Garuda? Garuda is casual, it takes 15min to kill, you can attempt at least 4-5x even if u play only 2hrs a day.

Please stop making casuals seems like they want everything handed on silver platter on them, there are differences between casuals and bad players.

What you are describing is bad players, instead of refining strategy they whine here instead. They asked for challenge, SE implement a challenge, they can't defeat it anyway. Now they whine about RNG that basically make it accessible for everyone.

How does making challenging fights for relics will helps casual? since they cant defeat it anyway.

WTF?

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

So you are expecting hardcores to carry you and win? and wtf does luck has to do with Garuda? Garuda is casual, it takes 15min to kill, you can attempt at least 4-5x even if u play only 2hrs a day.

Please stop making casuals seems like they want everything handed on silver platter on them, there are differences between casuals and bad players.

What you are describing is bad players, instead of refining strategy they whine here instead. They asked for challenge, SE implement a challenge, they can't defeat it anyway. Now they whine about RNG that basically make it accessible for everyone.

How does making challenging fights for relics will helps casual? since they cant defeat it anyway.

WTF?

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Garuda isn't casual. You need high dps to trigger AF before the 3rd port or you take 3.5k dmg af and wipe afterwards. Garuda needs 8 ppl that know how to play the classes, plus high dmg. I would say ifrit and moogle are casuals. You need only most of the time, two good healers, one good tank for moogle. The rest can be a mix of casuals and hardcore. Garuda don't, either you know how to play and are geared up or don't even bother going there to get wiped every 5min.

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Originally Posted by Noir

Garuda isn't casual. You need high dps to trigger AF before the 3rd port or you take 3.5k dmg af and wipe afterwards. Garuda needs 8 ppl that know how to play the classes, plus high dmg. I would say ifrit and moogle are casuals. You need only most of the time, two good healers, one good tank for moogle. The rest can be a mix of casuals and hardcore. Garuda don't, either you know how to play and are geared up or don't even bother going there to get wiped every 5min.

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Casual means content for people without much time which means a content that is 3-4hr long isn't casual-friendly.

Garuda is 15min fight at most, that is casual - friendly.

Stop making casuals seems like they do not know how to play their classes or how to gear their classes, you were describing bad and lazy players.

Baddies and lazy players are the one that sports full AF, doesn't care about maximizing their job potential and expect people to carry them into content because they do not know how play their class fully. They are not casual.

Of course there are casual AND bad players too.


again, Garuda is a casual content.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

1. Make Hamlet more like Campaign from XI and throw all gear/seals into purchasable category with points you build through it, that way people who complain about RNG can buy the seals eventually.

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Or they could make seals drop 100% and make you have to get a whole lot more of them. Still difficult, still time consuming, but actual progress is made each time you succeed.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

2. Offer the mats for cheap, since let's face it the only reason you people bitch about needing a double melded weapon is because you likely never bothered to get a melded weapon before or after you got a primal weapon, most people I know already rocked double+ melded weapons.

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"You people" probably didn't know they had to have multiple millions of Gil and spend them on a previously rather useless class only weapon then put even more money into hopefully double melding two pieces of Materia they didn't even necessarily want onto said weapon. Unless "you people" are psychic or the SE devs, then maybe you're right. And all the "people you know" (people who the RNG favored or had tens/hundreds of millions of Gil unlike the common player) with double melded weapons probably aren't carrying the right ones with the right Materia to be made into Relics. Just sayin'.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

3. Upon 2.0 make Hamlet more open world since the new client and servers should be able to handle it, which seems to be the main reason hamlet isn't as popular as it could be, because it's another 'spammable instance' which thus created an extreme RNG. (Face it, spammable content = you aint getting shit in short order.)

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Or again, they could just make it where you're guaranteed to get a seal if you win with the required points and increase the amount you need for the Relic quest. Then the "spammable content" still means you have to work for it, but you actually get rewarded for your work.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Otherwise getting a relic weapon isn't bad at all, it'll take awhile yes, and are you forced to do it? No, but these aren't just run of the mill weapons and no matter how you spin it, people who are complaining about this are wanting these weapons to be easier to get. It seems extreme when you eyeball it and go for it all at once but think about it:

You had damn near a month to build up the prereqs already.

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People don't mind it being hard. They don't mind it taking awhile. They mind the length of said "taking awhile" being based on your luck and not your dedication.

And "you had damn near a month to build up the prereqs already" doesn't mean a damn thing when you could be playing that entire month and not get a single seal to your name, again, THANKS TO LUCK.

Maybe now you'll get why people are really upset instead of why you perceived them to be upset.

TL;DR: Luck sucks, hard work and effort are good.

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Originally Posted by AlphaDragoon

TL;DR: Luck sucks, hard work and effort are good.

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Sadly many don't understand this and fail to even comprehend this and goes on about "U guys want it easy even tho ppl said countless times they want something rewarding but not handed on a silver plate"

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

Casual means content for people without much time which means a content that is 3-4hr long isn't casual-friendly.

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This right here.

Casual players are not bad players, they just don't play as much. Casual =/= terrible players.

God help us if they start rewarding people who suck at the game.

The gold coffer was not nerfed to be more difficult to earn; a new 4th tier coffer was added.

50k+ still gives a standard gold coffer.
60k+ gives a beastman-gold coffer, much like those near the stronghold bosses.

The beastman gold coffer has a really nice droprate of stuff, and no dark matter. lol.

Provisioning is NOT needed at rank 2 to reach it too.

I really think a karma system can benefit and satisfy people from both camps.

you'll still get people that are lucky enough to get drops on first attempt, at the same time, people that do enough are rewarded in time with the rate bumping up as more successful runs stack up.

No one is on the other side of the issue on making getting these weapons easy, SE need to make sure they can satisfy majority of the players by implementing something that's fair, just and at the same time motivating people to do more/help others.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

This right here.

Casual players are not bad players, they just don't play as much. Casual =/= terrible players.

God help us if they start rewarding people who suck at the game.

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Yes and no.

This game, if you don't play much you can't be good. That's why I call it casual, even the people that know how to Play.
I will explain why. The best gear can't be obtained by Gil. It's untradable. So, even of you play good with single meld and af, you won't e able to do some content. Garuda for ex. And these af weapon quest. People are spending 30mil and not being able to get the quest items. A casual won't ever be able to get these af weapons. Doesn't matter if you play good or not. Of course that we have casual and bad players. And we also have. Full darklight ppl that suck. I have seen it all.

A mix of EVERYTHING is good...and they will DO JUST THAT...this storyline has to end first...and FRANKLY IF YOU WANT LOTS OF NEW THINGS to do you need to wait for 2.0. They not gonna release the hunk a chunk of things to do this early...they are working on systems...trying out ideas while giving us stuff to hold us off till 2.0. Then there will be content enough for you all so....

I GIVE YOU A BIG CHILL PILL!!!

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Originally Posted by Noir

Yes and no.

This game, if you don't play much you can't be good. That's why I call it casual, even the people that know how to Play.
I will explain why. The best gear can't be obtained by Gil. It's untradable. So, even of you play good with single meld and af, you won't e able to do some content. Garuda for ex. And these af weapon quest. People are spending 30mil and not being able to get the quest items. A casual won't ever be able to get these af weapons. Doesn't matter if you play good or not. Of course that we have casual and bad players. And we also have. Full darklight ppl that suck. I have seen it all.

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Playing casually just means it will take longer to get those end game items. I consider myself casual since I generally can't play more than 2 hours if that during weekdays, but there's nothing preventing me from scheduling end game content runs on weekends when I do have time.

For example: In FFXI I did weekend Sky/HNM or Sea/Limbus on rotation with my LS. With multiple 75's the only items I didn't have when I quit were relic weapons & RDM AFv2 hat, items even most hardcore players never got. Still tanked every endgame HNM & burned gods.

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Originally Posted by Noir

Yes and no.

This game, if you don't play much you can't be good. That's why I call it casual, even the people that know how to Play.
I will explain why. The best gear can't be obtained by Gil. It's untradable. So, even of you play good with single meld and af, you won't e able to do some content. Garuda for ex. And these af weapon quest. People are spending 30mil and not being able to get the quest items. A casual won't ever be able to get these af weapons. Doesn't matter if you play good or not. Of course that we have casual and bad players. And we also have. Full darklight ppl that suck. I have seen it all.

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I am pretty sure i can buy melded gear............ or did i miss something.. High DPS comes from double-triple melded gear and HQ acc..... so...... you don't need darklights to defeat garuda.. you are trying too hard to justify your points.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

I am pretty sure i can buy melded gear............ or did i miss something.. High DPS comes from double-triple melded gear and HQ acc..... so...... you don't need darklights to defeat garuda.. you are trying too hard to justify your points.

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A casual will get 45mil for one triple meld where?
That's one piece. Second, you need to play a long time for the luck lady to grace you with the right materia via SB and double / triple meld something. SE hit the jackpot with af gear, just to go back three steps with this new af weapons . Just like someone else said

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Originally Posted by Noir

A casual will get 45mil for one triple meld where?
That's one piece. Second, you need to play a long time for the luck lady to grace you with the right materia via SB and double / triple meld something. SE hit the jackpot with af gear, just to go back three steps with this new af weapons . Just like someone else said

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Double melds is 1-3m at most. Most people sports single/double melds to defeat Garuda. What now?

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

If you want a better drop rate

youll have to accept long cooldowns for re-entry into instances

thats the tradeoff we got for being able to do things the way we do it now

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Shouldn't have to if the weapons are untradable Or tradeable for seals as it takes you 5mins + to go swap & the fact is currently they only drop 1 weapon so if u spam in a group of 8 you being screwed twice with timers & crap drop rates!

I'd rather have to battle 1 badass Boss with an 8 hour lockout and a 5% drop rate, than all this crap. it's just too much.

theres a bunch of hoot over items that arent even in game yet.
and with regards to OP's suggestions


ill never see a relic item in this game, no matter how much time i spend.. good bye casual gaming lol

guess ill quit going to school and work right now just to get these weapons!

For the "casual" player make some good friends and LS...they give you stuff for FREE...It's called helping each other out...you rub my back and I'll rub yours...THE ESSENCE of the 3 Pillars = COMMUNITY!!!!

Let's form virtual communities and PLAY together...OMG ever heard of being generous when you got lots to spare? Or helping out a friend in need? Maybe good karma will spread....

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

If you want a better drop rate

youll have to accept long cooldowns for re-entry into instances

thats the tradeoff we got for being able to do things the way we do it now

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Rare time when I agree with Thevedis, but this.

Accidentally posted this in the wrong thread so I'm moving this here.

I've read this whole thread and have yet to see a viable defense out of the defenders of this system as to how and why it is hard work. The only thing coming out of people's mouths seem to be, 'not everyone' can have them. If this is all you people can muster your defense fails horribly.

Others have broken it down so I don't need to, but nothing in this quest line requires hard work. If you've been playing for a long time and have gil, time, and above all else - luck this whole thing is easier than limit break in ffxi.

I also question SE's decision in adding these weapons at this point in time. They are digging themselves quite a hole here. Let's break it down.

In the near future SE will probably raise the cap. In doing so new weapons will be introduced. This could have a effect like Burning Crusade did for WoW. For those that remember the cap was raised and common greens were better than many epics that people had slaved away to get. The no-lifers got pissed off and blizzard did nothing. Complaining ensued. Judging by the elitist mentality here, a similar thing could happen.

In response SE could do nothing or add on power up quests to keep them viable. This would piss off new players because they would be forced to do old grindy content that was designed for an old version of the game. On the developer side of things SE would be forced to constantly look back at these relics when designing new content which for a dev is a major pain in the ass. Imagine this:

Dev 1: Ok new expansion x is ready for release.

Dev 2: Sir, the common items are better than the old relics from 1.0.

Dev 1: Goddamit, I forgot about those old things. Guess we'll have to whip up another convoluted add on to the quest line to keep the old no-lifers happy.

Dev 2: Fffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu again?

Aside from the above this also has the current effect of sending tier iv materia's to stratospheric levels. They are already very expensive. Imagine what it will be like for new players who want to buy a new piece of materia to meld to their boots so they aren't totally gimp.

More people need to look at the long term and not just the short term including SE. This whole thing reeks of a grind to placate the no-lifers who are complaining on these forums of lack of things to do currently so that SE doesn't lose their subs.

I've already said my part about the rng grind in the Relic Weapon thread so I won't digress.

Regardless I think this is a incredibly short-sighted reactionary move by SE that will lead to many headaches down the road for them unless they give the no-lifers a collective fuck you like Bliazzard did in response to the green controversy in WoW BC.

Also the RNG is garbage. We all know this. As a sensible player I had to laugh at my first experience with RNG.
I had a freshly 50 arm and decided to stick some materia on cobalt gauntlets. Then I stuck another on and for the lulz I went for a triple. It stuck on my first attempt doing a multiple meld. It wasn't skill or anything of that sort. Just pure blind luck. I've also seen noobs who barely know how to run straight get a darklight piece on their first attempt clearing AV/CC while the hardest and most skilled players are left with jack-shit.

Edit: I also need to add that the difference between Dynamis and fraggin Hamlet is that Dynamis was widely loved. People HATE Hamlet. After 10 hamlet wins I wanted to swallow a live hand grenade and play Russian roulette with a loaded handgun.

I posted this in my own LS's forums.

"The Relic requirements have seriously dampened my hope for this game.

Like Tips, my luck is shit on Shitfrit and Froogle. (And I used to enjoy those fights)

The minor boost from having the Relic is completely not worth the effort. Shit, there is already a new teir of GC weapons in the dats/game.

The difference in the GC weapons and the Primal weapons is minimal without sanction; with sanction (on the right weapon) it's actually better. So why bother wasting the time?

This is not what I want out of my gaming experience. Not even close.

I don't need crafting to be a MNK…
I don't need Hamlet in any sense…
I don't need a time/gil sink that has no measure of progress…
And, I definitely don't want the non-sense to continue.

I will not be doing anything regarding Relics or Hamlets… It's dribble. And if this IS what we can expect from their idea of "a long-term goal"…"

I have the highest respect for Yoshida and his team, as well as all the hard work they have done. I will give 2.0 a shot, and I will enjoy what I can from the pre-2.0 version of this game... I really do love it.

But, I cannot fathom any reasonable way to stomach this non-sense, any longer than this version.

They will destroy any hope they have of reviving this game if they cannot get rid of this luck-based non-sense.

I have faith in them, but I will definitely leave if this kind of thing continues.

I agree that it is a little early for relics, but I don't see any problem with a quest to enhance them like FFXI has. As long as they focus on horizontal progression & don't repeatedly raise the cap.

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Originally Posted by Noir

A casual will get 45mil for one triple meld where?

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Who said you needed 3 balled gear to beat Garuda? You are trying too hard.

I play rather casually putting time in when I can and I've had no issues beating Ifrit or Moogle, I haven't had time to fight Garuda but I'm sure with enough practice (Yeah it might take me a few days to get it down due to my time constraints) Me and my friends could bring her down.

Moogle was the same I got utterly curb stomped my first run and now I can log whenever I have time and me and my friends can down moogle pretty much whenever we want because while casual we are still good players.

You need to change your perspective on what a "Casual" player is capable of. We can do just as much as hardcore players it may take us some time because they hold the advantage with better gear and more time to practice but if we work as a team we can accomplish whatever we set out minds to.

Yes, I like the OP idea more about change anything luck base into pure effort. In your way, you get to do raid and many content for multiple time to get it. but it not require any luck at all.

I don't mind to do double of the process of all the OP has posted, make it even harder/longer is fine, as long as it is not drop base, and not long cool down repop time too.

i agree on not coming with drop rate... <_< getting tired and im getting less time to play.... >_>

Seals drop rate is like 80% now from 60k chest, went 3/5 so far on seals drop.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

Seals drop rate is like 80% now from 60k chest, went 3/5 so far on seals drop.

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and yet people will still complain about rng just watch

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

Seals drop rate is like 80% now from 60k chest, went 3/5 so far on seals drop.

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Shhhhh~ It's only a good drop rate if your character gets it every time other people be damned.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Shhhhh~ It's only a good drop rate if your character gets it every time other people be damned.

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lol, we all know whos gonna use that arguement, so dont give him ideas

100% drop rate or bust huh? hah i am so glad whiners here are just the 3% of entire population.

Signed. RNG = Thanks for the offer but I have to pass. I got my mog weapon on 120th kill, while others got 4 of them during 1st 8 kills in my LS back then. So, No thank you. No going to partcipate in this bulls*&t. I'm sure there could have been better ways to implement a long term goal.

this is bad game design, the fact that these weapons were alrdy overpriced/hella expensive once they came out (new shiny things OMG) but now they are even MORE expensive and the fact that this doesent reward skill, but greed instead.
like, it only rewards skill if you level everything up/farm make everything on your own, but how are you going to do ALL OF THIS before 2.0 comes out AND experience the story that comes with 1.22c/1.23?

havent seen it yet (in a garuda grp atm) but ive heard that double melded weps rdy for relic are going for 80 mil gil!!!!

At the current rate of time per goal, I'd say it would take roughly a year to get a AF weapon. By that time, they will probably be worthless.