So, what is the hold up on Beastmaster?

They aren't going to do Beastmaster due to the aggressively unhappy response that BLU and the whole idea of limited jobs rightfully got. And if they do Beastmaster as a real boy, it'll be in a form where they don't have pets.

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Originally Posted by Videra

They aren't going to do Beastmaster due to the aggressively unhappy response that BLU and the whole idea of limited jobs rightfully got. And if they do Beastmaster as a real boy, it'll be in a form where they don't have pets.

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I don't disagree, but that is a Them issue, not a BST or BLU issue.

That is what happens when you put the cart before the horse. BST most likely birthed the idea of limited jobs. I remember Matsui and his team pretty much admitting BST was designed to be a solo job in XI a few years back on the forums (Something every XI BST already knew, and the people who deny it.....AKA the people who never played BST and was not around at the time but act like they did/were......). BST shifted to jugs (Summon pets), around the time they introduced instanced content without charmable mobs. I wanna say Abyssea.

BLU could have easily been a normal job. It was XI, and it worked beautifully. XIV does things well, but jobs are not one of them. I think it is time for people to concede that. Job design in this game is horrible.

This team can only do generic standard melee DPS model....which tanks can fall into as-well......when they have to think outside the box a little, they fail........(SMN, BLU, etc).

However, not even they can screw up BST.

BST should not suffer, because they released the wrong job as a limited job. BST as the 1st limited job was a layup.
https://i.gifer.com/94x3.gif

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Originally Posted by Videra

And if they do Beastmaster as a real boy, it'll be in a form where they don't have pets.

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That's fine with me. Because they have repeatedly shown that they can't do pet classes that aren't Healer.

BST has higher chances of being a Tank class.

Personally Limited Jobs are just bad as an idea and I think BLU by that metric should be the only LJ we ever get. Or better if they just become a full job.

I'd rather a BLU come into it's own by starting as garbage(which they do) and when they acquire more and more spells they become just as good if not better then a lot of other jobs(which is also possible).

The conundrum that the game has is being stuck in this 2 minute meta that the Devs are forcing in PvE.

Blue Mage in FF5, FF8(Quistis), FF9(Quina), FFX/FFX-2(Kimahri/Gunmage), FFXI, BDFF(Vampire), Honorable Mention Xenoblade 3(Soulhacker/It's a Blue Mage people) are proof that the job can exist and start poor but then outpace a lot of other jobs.

If anything they should be adding a lot more to Blue Mage by adding ingame achievements by clearing bosses or content multiple times to upgrade skills, getting skills from Hunts/Eureka/Bozja/Zadnor and stop being babies and add stats to weapons.

With Blue Mage they got 2 things right. Meaningful acquisition of spells and a fantastic leveling experience where no matter what content you run your gear and spell progression ALWAYS carries over with you. Unlike other job classes that lose all their skills when they sync down.

BST won't happen, game can't do pet classes of any depth. It would be a fiasco like BLU.

A bit belated, but...

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Originally Posted by Winterfang

By making it so that BLU doesn't do as much damage as a BLM, so yes some heavy potency nerfs can be expected.

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The thing is, BLU's potency -- just taken as potency -- is actually not absurd. BLU does damage not only by having a ton of high-potency or OP spells -- especially since the OP ones don't work in the raid/challenge scenarios, like Level 5 Death or Missile -- but by letting you do stuff like add specific elemental vulnerabilities to your target and then exploit them.

Where BLU would break everything is, again, all the weird support spells it has.

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Originally Posted by Winterfang

But is, for example, a BLU casting White Wind going to really be needed so long as healers are up and able to use their CD's or other spells in their tool kits so that the Damage Dealing Job (Assuming it would be a DD Job and not something like a chad Magic Tank if it was a real Job) doesn't have to stop doing their role and making the boss cry.

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Needed? No. Could it be more optimal? Arguably, yes. I can't think of a single tool in the healer toolkit that could heal both tanks simultaneously for about 63k health each in a single GCD. And that's relevant this savage tier, given the potency of the split tankbusters in several fights.

And moreover, I will point out that we, as a playerbase, have demonstrated that if we can cheese a thing we will.

People who don't want to have to actually think about mechanics will strip their armor off in order to ensure Alliance Roulette only gives them Labyrinth of the Ancients.

Last tier, a popular party finder strategy for P1S Intemperance was "tank damage down", meaning you just ignore the mechanic because it was possible to resolve by only punishing one tank.

This tier, the dominant party finder strategy for the second Cachexia mechanic in P6S is "save LB3 and tank LB3 it so we don't have to actually try to do the mechanic."

So if BLU were a full job, and its presence -- with all its weird support spells and the ways you can get creative with them -- could allow you to cheese a mechanic and resolve it with less effort? Then yeah, I can absolutely see people locking a DPS slot in their party finders to BLU and BLU alone.

And that's something which, for good or ill, the developers have demonstrated they will try to take action to prevent. If a job is being excluded from PF or otherwise shut out of content by players for being 'non-optimal' compared to some other job, they will shuffle the balance around to try to make every job equally viable.

You can argue this makes jobs more bland (honestly, yes, it probably does), but you can't really argue that in the absence of that balance, we won't lean towards 'optimal' party meta.

And if one specific job allowed you to cheese your way through mechanics in savage? Yeah, I see a lot of people deciding that was 'optimal'.

If you wanted BLU to be a full job, it would have to be sanded down and squished into the same shape as other casters. And at that point, I'd argue that what you have isn't BLU, really... just another flavor of caster, where the spells are themed after monster attacks.

And if the answer here is "well, okay, just don't let BLU queue into current savage or ultimates so you don't have to account for it in fight balance"... you have turned it back into a limited job, as it is now.

And -- to the topic of this thread -- I think if you tried to make BST in this game, with this playerbase (and all our demonstrable tendency to seize on 'optimal' paths with the tenacity of a starving badger), it would either have to suffer that same fate as a full job (e.g. "Summoner, but with animals instead of carbuncles/egi."), or be something creative and different and unique but off in its own little world: a limited job, like BLU.

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Originally Posted by Winterfang

Is saving the party from a wipe by using Avail really going to be the make it or break it as to whether or not a group will comfortably beat a boss? Likely not.

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Sure, if you're speaking just of clears. But is saving the party from a wipe by using a tank invuln, BLU's Avail, and then BLU's Angel Snack to get a healer back up to LB3 going to speed up prog, meaning you get everyone back up and see the next mechanic rather than having to start a fresh pull? Absolutely.

They probably will never release BLU because they will just wait for a Final Sting kill zone and take BLU just for that. The beauty of BLU is building it how you want to instead of being pidgeonholed into a single bland kit.

The general kit the devs are gonna choose is Primal Burst with Moon Flute being on a 2 minute CD.

The bulk of BLU's damage comes from Moon Flute windows and buffed attacks like Tingle+Whistle+Triple Trident.

And Blue Mage is the only job that can perform all 3 role types to a decent degree.

Ironically BLU tanks play like a HW Tank with how Mighty Guard works as opposed to current Tanks.

The Healer kit is not awful and they do rather good DPS with specific loadouts. Primarily Primal spells. Surpanakha, Nightbloom, and Phantom Flurry are BLU's strongest attacks.

Personally I don't think BLU is limited from content but content is limited from BLU.

It's ironic that Blue Mage potencies were never adjusted like the other jobs were so as a result I find BLU a more balanced and engaging job to play.

Personally I hope the hold-up is because they realized Limited Jobs just create an insane amount of more work for them, for the payoff of.... players getting mad at them for limit-locking a beloved job that gets updated ONCE per expansion.

I really hope they make it an actual DPS, perhaps a Melee (Scouting) DPS.

I really want them to use an Axe + Jug. Or perhaps just a Jug.

The Jug would determine what your pet's appearance is. If they go this route, the Jug can be used as a Glamour for the Beastmaster. For example; if you get the Asphodelos Jug, your summon would be a Hippokampus. Or a tiny Phoinix. Crafted Jugs? Oh, a Rabbit, a Crab, a Sapling. Whatever they want to do.

The jug >> animal can easily act as the glamour for the pet itself, you can pick and choose what YOU want to summon. (This is a lot of work, and pretty unrealistic, but would be incredible to see.)


My idea to make the job actually function as a Melee DPS is to anchor the pet to the master. What I mean by this is have the beast be a PART of the job, while summoned (using Call Beast, like a stance such as Dance Partner/Tank Stance etc.) The pet will then summon, and follow at your side. When you move, the pet moves, instantaneously, it's linked to your character, and is invulnerable. Think of it like being a battery for your job's animations & weaponskills. The pet acts or performs actions when you press GCDs, while your character motions with the Jug or maybe a horn/instrument to command the pet. Of course intricate mechanics like comboing with your pet, being Scouting suppose it has a supporty-flair like Howl or Killer Instinct to buff the party.

I get you I really do but with how they treated Egi Glamour and their insistence on only one Voidsent demon to summon I just don't think they will do a FFXI Jug system. It could be really cool but I think too much time and work is required.

A problem they have had with pet actions is it's like they perform like macros by having a .5 second delay to anything they do.

I dunno if BST will become a thing or if it'll be a DPS or Tank but all I really hope for is a unique gameplay style because since a lot of the jobs play the same you can get bored really quickly.

I have hope they are thinking of things given that Bahamut and Phoenix have their own AI in PvP so there is still hope for a proper BST but given the track record I see them going the Tank route as it would be easier to justify another Melee without it getting too bloated and evens out the class ratio.

And then they can they can think about adding another ranged class which is I feel needed for Phys Ranged but also a Caster of the BLM variety.

When BLU gets updated I expect it to powercreep the jobs even more which will make playing even the current jobs a turnoff because in any game the stronger the Blue Mage gets the weaker everyone else is.

And I think when it comes to DPS you already have 5 melees, 9 if you add the Tanks. So I dunno.

If they do pet stuff it'll probably be oGCDs or special actions where you attack with the Pet or a bunch of different ones that don't change and it's just a aesthetic thing.

I'm with you on adding a Scouting class BTW to pad out the gear. So NIN's have some competition with loot. But I'm not opposed to things remaining the same because on the same token you aren't competing for gear.

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

Are the devs talking about adding Pup into XIV again? I pray they don't. XI's Pup class was bliss and I would rather not have the devs touch that system. I can already think about how they would "streamline" the automation frames for "balance". Leave puppetmaster alone XIV, you have blu. ;A;

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This was way back when blu initially came out, so given the so so blacklash on limited jobs its hard to see them working pup or even bst. Folks also got to keep in mind, blu is basically done during dev freetime when there isnt any major projects going on, its why they decided to delay blu stuff this expansion since they had a lot on their plate for EW launch.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

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BLU in its current state and BLU as a real job are not mutually exclusive. By way of an example, have a BLU patch that brings it up to level cap be dedicated to giving it a functional caster DPS kit, maybe a dot-based one, those specifics don't matter.

Say, in a theoretical update that brings BLU to 90, its questline ends with giving it a cane that has actual real job stats on it. You then gain access to a 'template' system, where you can save and edit BLU profiles for future use and ease of swapping. It comes with a default profile that is legal for DF content, and part of the storyline is gathering that DF legal toolkit.

You can, from here, simply bring BLU up to level 100 in 7.0 and maybe change the legal toolkit to match that jobs get shifted around in expansions. Might be a pain in the ass Dev Side, but this way, you could preserve the mini-game part of BLU and make it a real boy. And it would be better than having a fan favorite languish in the limited job category for the sake of 'Class Fantasy'.

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Originally Posted by Videra

BLU in its current state and BLU as a real job are not mutually exclusive. By way of an example, have a BLU patch that brings it up to level cap be dedicated to giving it a functional caster DPS kit, maybe a dot-based one, those specifics don't matter.

Say, in a theoretical update that brings BLU to 90, its questline ends with giving it a cane that has actual real job stats on it. You then gain access to a 'template' system, where you can save and edit BLU profiles for future use and ease of swapping. It comes with a default profile that is legal for DF content, and part of the storyline is gathering that DF legal toolkit.

You can, from here, simply bring BLU up to level 100 in 7.0 and maybe change the legal toolkit to match that jobs get shifted around in expansions. Might be a pain in the ass Dev Side, but this way, you could preserve the mini-game part of BLU and make it a real boy. And it would be better than having a fan favorite languish in the limited job category for the sake of 'Class Fantasy'.

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Please consider getting to 70 and actually running the content (maybe even go for the Morbol) before coming up with these kinds of ideas or even trying to say the job is languishing. ;)

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

Please consider getting to 70 and actually running the content (maybe even go for the Morbol) before coming up with these kinds of ideas or even trying to say the job is languishing. ;)

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Please consider that some people have multiple characters. I don't play this girl anymore. :) Nice try, though.

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Originally Posted by Videra

Please consider that some people have multiple characters. I don't play this girl anymore. :) Nice try, though.

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There are a lot of dishonest people on here. I'm not about to trust you blindly. That idea is still terrible. BLU as a regular job loses all that makes it fun and interesting.

It doesn't matter if you said they're not mutually exclusive, your idea is still horrible.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

There are a lot of dishonest people on here. I'm not about to trust you blindly. That idea is still terrible. BLU as a regular job loses all that makes it fun and interesting.

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I don't have to prove myself to you lmao. Also, I said they're not mutually exclusive, please, read. I even presented a way they could avoid making them mutually exclusive.

I have been waiting for beastmaster for awhile.

Some ideas:
- dps with dual small axes?
-Maybe a pipe animation when they summon a monster (pied piper reference)
- clubs as a weapon? We dont really have something like that currently
- same commands as our chocobo companion. Attack.Follow.Heal.Tank.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

Please consider getting to 70 and actually running the content (maybe even go for the Morbol) before coming up with these kinds of ideas or even trying to say the job is languishing. ;)

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Only way the devs will get me to do Savage raids on BLU is if they lock a spell behind it. Titles and mounts don't mean a lot to me lol. Learning new spells has actual value over superficial bullshit.

But their idea is not great. Blue Mage isn't Blue Mage if they have a preset kit for Duty Finder and if they integrated that I'd just do what I do already...Party Finder premades or just do things Solo like one shotting ARR Primals and soloing Treasure Maps.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

Please consider getting to 70 and actually running the content (maybe even go for the Morbol) before coming up with these kinds of ideas or even trying to say the job is languishing. ;)

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Telling people to "get the Morbol" is adamantly not something an advocate for the BLU Job should do.

Most people who are interested in BLU have 0 interest in grinding savage.

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Originally Posted by Floortank

Telling people to "get the Morbol" is adamantly not something an advocate for the BLU Job should do.

Most people who are interested in BLU have 0 interest in grinding savage.

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It was my way of saying try to have the full experience before you try to make a judgment on something. The person has a character with a blue that's only 50. It's not my fault I can't divine the existence of another character with maxed BLU. :rolleyes: We have people on here crying about the state of the entire game and trying to speak for the whole playerbase, when all they do is engage the story.

At any rate, BLU is not likely to change. It helps out a lot with older content and keeping it relevant and accessible (allied seals). It also provides enough of a variety of challenges, which they'll probably keep building on as time goes by.

For all the complaints about jobs being homogenized, it's amazing to see people actually trying to get blue as a regular job. What exists right now is not for everyone, but it's the better representation of BLU.

Re: Bluemage

My 2 cents-
1) it should never be a full job and should be encouraged to be built however people want to build to try and clear content. Loopholes encouraged! The beauty of the job is the puzzle-like nature of figuring out if a fight is even possible, and if so, how.
I would hate to see it have any kind of set abilities for DF.

2) they shouldn't gate any abilities in dungeons. Maybe allow things to be gotten easier from dungeons w/ friends, but all abilities should be available in solo play situations. Things like B/A rank hunts, Bozja and Eureka are perfect places to allow a Blu to hunt down abilities.

3) I would like to see more niche rewards for certain content. Nothing too fancy, but maybe additional niche spells. or fashion accessories. Ex- "defeat all 3.x trials w/ blu mage solo, get minion".

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Originally Posted by Nyxs

I have been waiting for beastmaster for awhile.

Some ideas:
- dps with dual small axes?
-Maybe a pipe animation when they summon a monster (pied piper reference)
- clubs as a weapon? We dont really have something like that currently
- same commands as our chocobo companion. Attack.Follow.Heal.Tank.

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I think for BST you can have a Whip, Axe and Shield, Axes across the series.

I think they could go the Lyon Helsos route, a Whip route or possibly a FFX-2 route by redesigning the Chocobo Companion system and make the Chocobo the focus.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

That is the point I'm making. BLU can never work within the normal rules of FFXIV because it has NEVER worked within the normal rules of a FF game. It has always been an outlier.

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Absolute hogwash. My least favorite argument around Blue Mage, which utterly reeks of historical revision. Does Blue Magic in the series open up some unique broken opportunities? Sure, FF5 had a few things going on with like, Dark Spark fiddling with enemies' levels, FF7 had Beta and Matra Magic just be incredible spells for when you get them, there's the aforementioned Degenerator from 8, Limit Glove from 9 gives you a way to hit 9999 early if you don't want to grind Dragon Crest or Thievery.

But Blue Magic as a kit is far from being naturally defined as *the* "game breaker" in any game its in, there are far more broken things in each of those games that Blue Magic takes a back-seat to. FF5 is held up as one of the big examples of Blue Mage being broken, yet Chemists, Mystic Knights (Break sword!), Time Mages (Quick + sap?), even Beastmasters were all able to break the game more accessibly and easily. In fact, Blue Mage relies on Chemist for most of its level tweaking strategies, and that's even been patched out of releases from the mobile version on. Degenerator sure seems flashy in FF8, but junctioning Death 100 to your weapon accomplishes much the same without risk of epilepsy.

What does Blue Mage have consistently then, if it "breaking the game" is overblown, or at least downplayed versus other game-breakers in each game? Why, a very solid support kit, spells that hit weaknesses that aren't common to find, as well as affect statuses that may or may not have niche use, and usually a solid nuke that can hold up in endgame (grand delta, shockwave pulsar, annihilation, etc.) This is the only constant across all the games, and the only thing FFXIV needed to have aspired to. Heck, let's even throw the argument a bone and say that FF5 and FF7 Blue Magic is indeed the primary danger to game balance, well what about FF6, FFTA, FFTA2, FFX-2, FF Explorers, Bravely Default (Vampire), Bravely Default 2 (Catmancer), and a big one, FFXI? I count 8 examples of Blue Magic being a relatively nice, non-broken support kit compared to the two examples above.

Apologies if I'm coming across rather aggressive, I am just sick to death of this fallacious argument and I refuse to let Blue Mage's reputation be tarnished with outright lies.

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Originally Posted by Valdegarde

What does Blue Mage have consistently then, if it "breaking the game" is overblown, or at least downplayed versus other game-breakers in each game? Why, a very solid support kit, spells that hit weaknesses that aren't common to find, as well as affect statuses that may or may not have niche use, and usually a solid nuke that can hold up in endgame (grand delta, shockwave pulsar, annihilation, etc.) This is the only constant across all the games, and the only thing FFXIV needed to have aspired to. Heck, let's even throw the argument a bone and say that FF5 and FF7 Blue Magic is indeed the primary danger to game balance, well what about FF6, FFTA, FFTA2, FFX-2, FF Explorers, Bravely Default (Vampire), Bravely Default 2 (Catmancer), and a big one, FFXI? I count 8 examples of Blue Magic being a relatively nice, non-broken support kit compared to the two examples above.

Apologies if I'm coming across rather aggressive, I am just sick to death of this fallacious argument and I refuse to let Blue Mage's reputation be tarnished with outright lies.

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The argument still holds up here because it's a very different environment from most of the other games. Take a good look at the spell book. Those status effects generally have no use on bosses here. With the way things are, blue mage would lose a lot of its identity in the realm of the normal jobs, where they try to make it so no one job gets preference over another. The only effects we get to play with on boss encounters are those that affect outgoing and incoming damage. Beyond that, we get to slow or stun some things once in a while and they become immune to stun. What's left for blue to do after that? Nothing too special, but maybe it's a little flashy.

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Originally Posted by Valdegarde

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Exactly. Exactly. Someone actually gets it. This is ignoring the fact that the Mini-Game and Customization we currently have with Blue Mage can stay! I actually like it, I just want an alternative so that I can play my favorite job thematic in current, relevant content. And I'd happily take a standard Caster DPS for that. I firmly believe anyone who opposes the idea of having the OPTION to play BLU as a normal class with a normal, balanced kit is outright arguing for the sake of arguing. Hell, they could even make BLU the 'DNC' of the Caster group to keep its weird support vibe.

I want my old main in FFXI and favorite thematic to be relevant to the current game. Not an expansion behind forever.

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Originally Posted by Videra

Exactly. Exactly. Someone actually gets it. This is ignoring the fact that the Mini-Game and Customization we currently have with Blue Mage can stay! I actually like it, I just want an alternative so that I can play my favorite job thematic in current, relevant content. And I'd happily take a standard Caster DPS for that. I firmly believe anyone who opposes the idea of having the OPTION to play BLU as a normal class with a normal, balanced kit is outright arguing for the sake of arguing. Hell, they could even make BLU the 'DNC' of the Caster group to keep its weird support vibe.

I want my old main in FFXI and favorite thematic to be relevant to the current game. Not an expansion behind forever.

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FFXI is still around. Have at it.

They're not doing an alternate BLU for main content. That would look very lazy.

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Originally Posted by Videra

Exactly. Exactly. Someone actually gets it. This is ignoring the fact that the Mini-Game and Customization we currently have with Blue Mage can stay! I actually like it, I just want an alternative so that I can play my favorite job thematic in current, relevant content. And I'd happily take a standard Caster DPS for that. I firmly believe anyone who opposes the idea of having the OPTION to play BLU as a normal class with a normal, balanced kit is outright arguing for the sake of arguing. Hell, they could even make BLU the 'DNC' of the Caster group to keep its weird support vibe.

I want my old main in FFXI and favorite thematic to be relevant to the current game. Not an expansion behind forever.

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Yep I'm glad Valdegarde gets it too. What the minority voice of the forum fails to understand is that BLU isn't limited from content. Content is limited from BLU.

Given that BLU is a flexible job and everyone else is not.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

FFXI is still around. Have at it.

They're not doing an alternate BLU for main content. That would look very lazy.

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That hasn't stopped the devs from making lazy fixes before. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::D:D:D:cool:

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Originally Posted by Cithaerias_pyropina

That hasn't stopped the devs from making lazy fixes before. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::D:D:D:cool:

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One can only hope. It's so sad BLU had to be an initially lazy, irrelevant after two weeks mini-game instead of an actual, fully fledged job.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

FFXI is still around. Have at it.

They're not doing an alternate BLU for main content. That would look very lazy.

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BLU was an incredibly lazy addition to the game in the state it launched in to begin with, you river troll.

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Originally Posted by Videra

BLU was an incredibly lazy addition to the game in the state it launched in to begin with, you river troll.

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I'm not debating the state of it at launch. It sounded horrible, but it's not the case now. It's fun and different. Jamming it in with everything else would dilute it severely. Next time, maybe dispute something I actually spoke about and spare me the same old shit I've heard before.

I say no more limited jobs ever!! I hate that BLU is stuck behind that wall!!

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

I'm not debating the state of it at launch. It sounded horrible, but it's not the case now. It's fun and different. Jamming it in with everything else would dilute it severely. Next time, maybe dispute something I actually spoke about and spare me the same old shit I've heard before.

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Suck my nuts. I have played BLU, I have had fun with BLU as it currently is, but I will never stop hoping to be able to actually main it in the content that matters. No, it wouldn't dilute what we have.

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Originally Posted by Videra

Suck my nuts. I have played BLU, I have had fun with BLU as it currently is, but I will never stop hoping to be able to actually main it in the content that matters. No, it wouldn't dilute what we have.

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It's funny, because the content we have now is already diluted decade old rehash.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Blue Mage should’ve been a normal job - concessions have been made for each job like DRK, RDM, and SMN without making them limited like BLU was. Keeping the job in its current state comes across as little more than a show of stubbornness.

Adding a limited Beastmaster would be…an extension of that and other attitudes that have reared their heads since this game’s short term success following the fall of WoW. Some of us tire being subject to the whims of a certain individual, especially when certain classes are treated special while Blue Mage is left to flounder the way it has since it was added, while others have been ruined at multiple intervals.

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I totally agree with this! No More Limited Jobs Please!!!

You say you enjoy it, yet you still hold on to that trauma from 4 years ago. Get a grip.

I'm not gonna suck anything. Your tears of what isn't and what won't be are sufficient. ;)

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

You say you enjoy it, yet you still hold on to that trauma from 4 years ago. Get a grip.

I'm not gonna suck anything. Your tears of what isn't and what won't be are sufficient. ;)

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As someone who actually liked stuff like Dirge of Cerberus, I can tell you right now, you can get enjoyment out of something bad and still say "It's bad nonetheless and I'd prefer/enjoy it more if it were done properly".

Example: "Ok some songs in the 3rd Birthday were a bop and I guess the gameplay was cute for a baseline thing, but the game itself is actual garbage and Square should be ashamed of what it did to Parasite Eve" --> Totally valid opinion.

The big issue with BLU as a full job is cultural, not technical.

You could do things like say "Okay, these spells now have levels associated with them." No using, say, Both Ends below level 70 (so you can't just queue into levelling roulette, get Sastasha, and steamroller it using 14 different AoEs).

But given this community, if you could take BLU into normal roulettes, how do you think people would react if a BLU came in who didn't have spells equipped that they 'should' at a given level? Because I strongly suspect it would be a topic that became as constant and heated a discussion as "DPS pulling mobs for tanks / you pull you tank", and the use of Rescue by healers.

So, okay, you do away with learning spells; you just get them unlocked at appropriate levels, as with other jobs. Now BLU can be a normal caster, it just has a 'theme' to the spells.

But keep in mind, there's an active conversation going on /r/ffxivdiscussion over on Reddit right now about "what is an acceptable variance of DPS between jobs within a role when you take a 95% parse?" A lot of people are saying 2-3% at most, which I think is ridiculous because that's within the range of crit variance in this game as it stands. (Which is a whole other issue, but not one to unpack in this thread.)

People -- multiple people -- are actually claiming in that discussion that bringing MCH into savage is not just non-optimal but in the first week or two of savage is actively griefing. And they are seemingly dead serious about this position.

So, okay. Clearly, there's going to be Big Feelings Time about any job being in real endgame content that doesn't fit into the same little boxes as all the other jobs in endgame content.

You strip out stuff like Aetherial Mimicry and rebalance all of BLU's potencies to be in line with either BLM (and rip out all of BLU's utility stuff) or in line with, say, RDM (and leave at least some of the utility stuff, like Angel Snack, in). Yay! Now you've made a job that's called Blue Mage, but which is a pure DPS caster and works like all the other full caster jobs. No more learning spells, no more Blue Magic spellbook, potencies balanced properly, etc.

Obviously, you do away with the absurd XP bonus that BLU gets for overworld mobs, because if it can be used for normal duties and MSQ it should level akin to other jobs.

Let's even say that you keep old BLU around; there's just two 'hotbar sets', much like normal jobs and PvP. You can go into a lobby for the Masked Carnivale and work with your BLU-specific hotbars there, and those only work in the Masked Carnivale and in BLU-specific duties/challenges.

But we have demonstrated that this community demands that every job have all the things. Now BLU is a full job and can come into normal content... how long do you think it would be before someone starts saying it's unfair that BLU have a bunch of BLU-specific achievements and weekly challenges? Before someone wants, say, a GNB-specific Masked Carnivale equivalent, where you have to do a series of complicated duels? Before someone wants a WHM-specific weekly challenge log, for parties of WHMs to tackle specific content?

And given the SQEX approach to "the players are angry that X has a thing Y doesn't" is to just take that thing away in the name of everything having the same number of toys...

When people say that making BLU a full job would kill what we enjoy about BLU, we don't mean it from a technical standpoint; we generally mean it from a cultural one, based on literally all past and current evidence about how we-as-a-playerbase react to things.

There's not a lot of room in modern MMOs for variety as it is, given the tendency for players to focus on optimization. And even within that scale, FFXIV skews to the extreme end in terms of how badly our playerbase reacts to any difference in job viability/balance/potency; we claim we want more variety in how jobs play, but our actions as a playerbase demonstrate the opposite.

Limited jobs are a chance to still have that variety, to do weird and different and strange and sometimes even just plain broken things, and have it be okay. So, like, personally? I would love to see more limited jobs. More jobs that do weird stuff that wouldn't play well with others in a modern MMO (with all those smoothed-down edges and padded walls) but which can still be a lot of fun.

Hence why I'd rather see BST as a limited job than a full one. Because if it's a full one, it's probably going to end up being SMN with a different set of animations; we as a playerbase have demonstrated that's about all we'll tolerate. If it's a limited one, there's some potential for really neat, interesting stuff that wouldn't play well in the rest of the game.

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Originally Posted by Videra

One can only hope. It's so sad BLU had to be an initially lazy, irrelevant after two weeks mini-game instead of an actual, fully fledged job.

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Apropos of nothing, I really do think it's unfair to call the BLU we have 'lazy'. BLU as it stands almost certainly took far more work than any other job we have in the game, from writing the entire system to learn spells in combat by observing them, to writing (as it presently stands) 31 fights -- some of them multi-stage -- specific to the job...

"Lazy" would've been making a caster that was basically "black mage, but all the spells you learn as you level are just reused from enemies we have", with no BLU-specific content at all.

You can be unhappy with BLU, it might not be what you wanted, but calling what we have lazy just seems kind of inaccurate.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

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Honestly I think the problem is more how people choose to tackle Blue Mage.

The dev team insists that the reason it wouldn't work is because spells are OP and, like you said and many people agree, if you focus on the Learn mechanic, you're no different than the people in HSW who didn't have stuff like Provoke or Awareness in their cross-class kit. The game works off of an established "minimum". And BLU spells being tied to the Learn mechanic are a bare minimum.

However, so too were other spells and abilities from other jobs who were translated just fine into FF14. We're not Dualcasting Flares here, but Dualcast exists regardless. We're not summoning actual gods here. Learn is literally the FF5 mechanic, which sure some other games who ALLOW for it share... but not all of them, and you have plenty of other ways to do this.

So why the insistence that the game cannot translate BLU into its system? Why insist on "skills are broken" or "Learn is the way to go" when there's no need for that?
DRK iconically sacrifices its own HP to deal damage, not MP. Yet the devs worked around it, didn't they? So why freak out that Self-Destruct would insta-kill you? It doesn't have to. Nor does it have to be in the list anyway.
And you got Blue Magic from eating enemies in FF9, you got it from eating bolts and nuts like Quistis, you got it by making Kimahri poke a specific guy. Why insisting that you MUST tie it to the FF5 Learn mechanic? When in other games, it's just a gimmick that ultimately is no different than having to purchase spells from shops or waiting for a spell to be dropped like in 11?

It's a bit unfair to say "Oh we can't have BLU in the game without changing" when really you could just learn spells like everyone else does: job quests. Hell, we do dungeons and fight non-optional duties in the game, what's to say the warrior of light doesn't have the creativity to learn otherwise as he goes along? We don't even need to do Coils to learn how to summon Big Daddy and Moltres. So why limit BLU to that?

I will concede that Limited Jobs, when done right, might be cool and useful. But using this as an excuse for why iconic jobs cannot be translated into the game is, to my eyes, a bit unfair. If we're going to have Limited Jobs, then they shouldn't need justification.

Edit: to me, BLU is about using your enemy's skills, not Learning as a mechanic. Every class learns in one way or another, BLU being quirky is just fluff to the lore. It can be done in cutscenes, it's fine. That's what I think BLU is: the ability to use skills, not the Learn mechanic itself.

I can't wait for the new BLU update late Endwalker where BLU's will get even stronger and the other jobs get weaker.

Learning skills is half the job. The other half is using the monster skills to great effectiveness.

And personally I'd like to see BLU in DD, Eureka, Bozja and the ability to have achievements that upgrade your skills and traits.

Until then BLU is a excellent ARR Primal killer, GC Seal farmer(Sirensong Sea) and Gil money maker. So much so that the weekly target rewards are pitiful.

Not to mention irregular mogtomes. Woah.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

Edit: to me, BLU is about using your enemy's skills, not Learning as a mechanic. Every class learns in one way or another, BLU being quirky is just fluff to the lore. It can be done in cutscenes, it's fine. That's what I think BLU is: the ability to use skills, not the Learn mechanic itself.

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Same here. Learning blu spells works differently across the series. Quistis in VIII for example learns them by using items. You can get a lot of the items from Triple Triad so you can in fact get many blu spells without fighting the relevant monsters at all. Gun Mage in X-2 had blu spells learned from monsters but also Fiend Hunter skills learned with AP like how every other job in the game learned abilities.

My ideal Blue Mage would be a mix of skills you get from leveling and monster skills from job quests. If SE is worried about players missing skills they can require job quests to be completed to queue for higher level content.

Edit: To this day it breaks my heart that I can't play my favourite job in the series in the MSQ and normal dailies and weeklies. Please no more limited jobs. A mini game that gets updated every two years is awful compared to playing your favourite class everywhere in game.

I just make my own dailies honestly. BLU is so useful for filling Wondrous Tails, can do treasure maps solo(even the dungeons), occasional easy weekly targets, GC farm, etc.

And you can change things up quite a bit unlike the duty finder stuff the actual Limited jobs have to do.