Many Savage PFs are barring PLD and WAR, anyone know what's going on?

I have to say WAR dps is just not there atm. I played flawlessly in P7s granted Im still equipping 4 pentameld crafted mostly due to luck and Ive had 3 enrages with 0.1-0.2% so far. Yes it was with PF and yes at least one people died along the way but if I just do a bit more dmg we would have had those.

Switching to other tank is not an option, I like WAR and I dont want this game to be like WoW where you are forced to switch jobs to clear contents. Its not fun

This tier has been a mess. I can just wait till everyone gets better equipments but its frustrating. Started to think I might actually have to join a static. I agree with the notion that if you are a WAR you automatically depend on your dps to do excellent damage at least for 7 and 8 currently.

While WAR could still use some DPS buffs, it's hardly the thing at fault if your group can't meet P7S's DPS check, especially by week 3.

Can say the same for Week 2, easily done it week 1.

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Originally Posted by Lieri

I have to say WAR dps is just not there atm. I played flawlessly in P7s granted Im still equipping 4 pentameld crafted mostly due to luck and Ive had 3 enrages with 0.1-0.2% so far. Yes it was with PF and yes at least one people died along the way but if I just do a bit more dmg we would have had those.

Switching to other tank is not an option, I like WAR and I dont want this game to be like WoW where you are forced to switch jobs to clear contents. Its not fun

This tier has been a mess. I can just wait till everyone gets better equipments but its frustrating. Started to think I might actually have to join a static. I agree with the notion that if you are a WAR you automatically depend on your dps to do excellent damage at least for 7 and 8 currently.

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Think this has more to do with PF than your choice of tank. PF players are legitimately awful at their jobs, especially the DPS ones. You'll get a little extra damage going over to a meta job, but its far more likely that its the result of 1 or 2 players being dead weight.

A sad reality of a game that wants to have hardcore/competitive damage checks, yet gives you no way to measure your own output or others, then the developer gets mad and screeches at you if you try anything third party to resolve this glaring flaw in game design.

Further WAR buffs would help a bit, but at the end of the day Tank damage just isn't as relevant as proper DPS performance.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Think this has more to do with PF than your choice of tank. PF players are legitimately awful at their jobs, especially the DPS ones. You'll get a little extra damage going over to a meta job, but its far more likely that its the result of 1 or 2 players being dead weight.

A sad reality of a game that wants to have hardcore/competitive damage checks, yet gives you no way to measure your own output or others, then the developer gets mad and screeches at you if you try anything third party to resolve this glaring flaw in game design.

Further WAR buffs would help a bit, but at the end of the day Tank damage just isn't as relevant as proper DPS performance.

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I can confirm it was a collective mistake. I managed to clear when the boss did it's enrage animation, I thought we were goners honestly.
I was very curious how did that happen, we had 2 deaths (tank+melee) but we did 2 melee LBs (LB 3 + LB 2) so I don't think it was supposed to be that crazy.
Then I browsed Reddit and found threads where people stated they cleared with multiple deaths in week 1/2, with proofs as well. I wasted so many hours this week. Sigh...

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Originally Posted by Lieri

I can confirm it was a collective mistake. I managed to clear when the boss did it's enrage animation, I thought we were goners honestly.
I was very curious how did that happen, we had 2 deaths (tank+melee) but we did 2 melee LBs (LB 3 + LB 2) so I don't think it was supposed to be that crazy.
Then I browsed Reddit and found threads where people stated they cleared with multiple deaths in week 1/2, with proofs as well. I wasted so many hours this week. Sigh...

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Most pfs Ive done are only able to dish out enough damage for last second clears. The dps check is pretty brutal compared to 5 and 6

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Think this has more to do with PF than your choice of tank. PF players are legitimately awful at their jobs, especially the DPS ones. You'll get a little extra damage going over to a meta job, but its far more likely that its the result of 1 or 2 players being dead weight.

A sad reality of a game that wants to have hardcore/competitive damage checks, yet gives you no way to measure your own output or others, then the developer gets mad and screeches at you if you try anything third party to resolve this glaring flaw in game design.

Further WAR buffs would help a bit, but at the end of the day Tank damage just isn't as relevant as proper DPS performance.

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Sadly that is the truest fact in PF. Which is also why I laugh at ppl who post barse parties in PF. The irony is that WAR used to be like DRK where it had very high burst with low down time. Berserk, when it was atk power made up a majority of your dmg since you swapped to Deliverance for that for a further 5% dmg increase. Though it was on the 90 sec and not tied to 120 sec.

The problem is that for WAR to capitalize on these short burst windows it's gcds need to hit much harder when in those windows to compensate for the lack of ogcds. PR/IC needs a good 50 more potency to see it be on par with DRK or even GNB. Buffing the other gcds is okay but its not gonna solve the issue of burst windows when you only have 7-8 gcds to hit in that small time frame. Compare that to DRK which can double weave "fell cleaves" between its gcds. I'm not gonna be surprised if IR is put to 120 secs but also have much higher dmg in the future. It technically used to be 120 secs when it was tied to Unchained in 4.0.

Personally I would like to see the return of attack power increase but a potency increase to all gcds while in IR would simulate the power Berserk once had and help in those burst windows while still retaining the low ogcd feel of WAR and not make it a copy of DRK's ogcd spam. I also like how WAR is gcd focused and it really gives impact to its hits like PR, compared to DRK's shadowbringers which feels like a wet fart despite it being its hardest hitting move.

I think that a lot of this just comes down to fight design. If you de-emphasize positioning due to bosses that fill most of the arena, position themselves, or are just wall bosses, then tanking largely gets reduced to being an underpowered melee dps. So when you hit a dps check as a tank you may feel pressured to try to find ways of picking up that slack. However, a lot of it is unfortunately outside of your control, and the biggest contribution that you can make is to avoid killing more important members of your team with unforced errors.

For the offensive value that tanks bring, the variations between them are so minor that I'm surprised that anyone would bother to lock spots, and I haven't personally seen that myself. If you're frustrated by dps checks on tank in pf, honestly just try swapping to DPS for a tier. It's seriously a breath of fresh air and you'll actually feel like you have carry potential. And you'll always be the top preference for uptime spots.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

For the offensive value that tanks bring, the variations between them are so minor that I'm surprised that anyone would bother to lock spots, and I haven't personally seen that myself. If you're frustrated by dps checks on tank in pf, honestly just try swapping to DPS for a tier. It's seriously a breath of fresh air and you'll actually feel like you have carry potential. And you'll always be the top preference for uptime spots.

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Less than 10 total PLDs/WARs cleared P8s week 1 worldwide. There were hundreds of DRKs and GNBs. One of the famous streamers for FF14 couldn't clear it on WAR,, switched to GNB where his party had some deaths and damage downs, and they cleared it simply because of the GNB damage difference from WAR. It was a very significant problem. There shouldn't be damage gap difference in rDPS between roles greater than 1%, and back then it was higher than nearly 5% if I'm not mistaken. That is significant enough to prevent clears in many cases, even when played optimally.

There's roughly about 200 dps between all the tanks, and if you look at the statistics, PLD is now marginally outperforming DRK on most of the fights following the 6.21 buffs. This is in comparison to DPS jobs that are each individually doing more than 150% of your raid contribution and vary by nearly 1000 dps in some cases.

You should try your best. But the unfortunate truth is that SE has gone to great lengths over the past few expansions to de-emphasize the value of good tanks, and you will not make or break any of these checks outside of grossly underperforming.

I think it's because we either got nerfed or SE forgot about us orz

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Originally Posted by Lyth

There's roughly about 200 dps between all the tanks, and if you look at the statistics, PLD is now marginally outperforming DRK on most of the fights following the 6.21 buffs. This is in comparison to DPS jobs that are each individually doing more than 150% of your raid contribution and vary by nearly 1000 dps in some cases.

You should try your best. But the unfortunate truth is that SE has gone to great lengths over the past few expansions to de-emphasize the value of good tanks, and you will not make or break any of these checks outside of grossly underperforming.

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No, it isn't.

For tanks, aDPS is a better representation of their actual contribution because they're entirely selfish jobs. In that category, Dark Knight is still noticeably ahead, especially in P8S. While DPS are in a worst state overall, the tanks still aren't balanced very well. Hence why Dark Knight and Gunbreaker have continued to dominate.

I don't really agree with that approach. rdps is the fairest comparison for all jobs because it credits all damage done under buffs to the owner of that buff. For tanks, that means that you're looking at their own, unaltered personal dps (ndps).

adps tries to be clever and cherry pick buffs to try to be representative of the pre-Stormblood/early Stormblood standard while trying to exclude ones that are vulnerable to targeted padding, like dance partner, DRG Eye, and AST cards. But it still allows for buff padding nonetheless based off your party composition, just like in the old days.

If you're trying to maximize your adps, you theoretically should be running without any other selfish jobs, like SAM and BLM, and fill all those slots with buff providers. But that's actually counterintuitive to how we actually play when trying to kill bosses faster. The real value of adps is in doing a personal comparison of yourself with yourself under similar conditions to see how well you're lining up with buff windows. But it's not a great approach for doing comparisons of job performances on a grand scale, which is where rdps really shines.

The metric that really matters at the end of the day is your boss kill time. And that depends on your raid's total rdps.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

The metric that really matters at the end of the day is your boss kill time. And that depends on your raid's total rdps.

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I mean if you put it that way, PLD would never be picked for this unless the changes are solid. Speed kills will always result to a meta comp consisting of Sam, Mnk, Blm, Dnc, Drk, Gnb, Ast, Sch. Paladin will fall off raid buffs very quickly over time, and kill speeds has always been determined by comps, Crit/DH RNG, Pot timings, and cooldown timings. aDPS is always extremely detrimental in those comparisons.

Edit: rDPS is still very much effected by kill time for each job and their rotations based to it. Some jobs get completely cucked with a quick kill, or mid fast kill, and PLD is plenty times over many fights requiring a slow kill.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I don't really agree with that approach. rdps is the fairest comparison for all jobs because it credits all damage done under buffs to the owner of that buff. For tanks, that means that you're looking at their own, unaltered personal dps (ndps).

adps tries to be clever and cherry pick buffs to try to be representative of the pre-Stormblood/early Stormblood standard while trying to exclude ones that are vulnerable to targeted padding, like dance partner, DRG Eye, and AST cards. But it still allows for buff padding nonetheless based off your party composition, just like in the old days.

If you're trying to maximize your adps, you theoretically should be running without any other selfish jobs, like SAM and BLM, and fill all those slots with buff providers. But that's actually counterintuitive to how we actually play when trying to kill bosses faster. The real value of adps is in doing a personal comparison of yourself with yourself under similar conditions to see how well you're lining up with buff windows. But it's not a great approach for doing comparisons of job performances on a grand scale, which is where rdps really shines.

The metric that really matters at the end of the day is your boss kill time. And that depends on your raid's total rdps.

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rdps is good for comparing against other players on the same job, not for comparing jobs. It doesn't matter that a PLD will do more damage than DRK when hitting a dummy/ignoring other people, what matters is that in an actual group, a DRK will offer more total DPS by putting more potency inside raid buffs. You can look at adps and apply that dps to the DRK, or rdps and apply that DPS to the NIN, DNC, DRG etc., but either way, an identical group with a DRK instead of PLD will have more total dps and kill faster. adps is good for comparing jobs against each other, especially jobs that have no raid buffs of their own like tanks.

Again, you cannot calculate your kill time from your team's adps. It's a bit of a nonsense parameter outside of the context of figuring out buff windows and timings. You can, however, calculate your kill time from summing your team's rdps.

Either way, you're focusing on the wrong issues by debating over differences of a hundred dps or so and cherry picking which metric you want to use to beg for 50 potency buffs. The unfortunate truth is that the rest of your team just doesn't care about minor variations in tank dps because you are simply not the heavy lifters here. And that's really the thing that you should be united in fighting for.

Tanks should have carry potential, be it mechanically, dps, or both. As it stands right now, the only reason why the role matters is to get you into the instance. Tanks really get into their heads about min-maxing their gameplay, but you don't really understand how meaningless your efforts are until you give up the 'support' lifestyle and cross over to the dark side to see what it's like to really have an impact. As long as you don't die to something silly and get a DPS killed from an auto/TB, or go for uptime at the expense of that of a DPS, the rest of your team actually doesn't care what you do.

Unless and until that changes, you should strongly reconsider your investment in the role. This is a fantastic tier, but it's the most depressing one that I've seen for tanks in a long time.

Man this all could have been avoided if their balance changes had a semblance of thought be hind them and weren't just boring "uhhh...HAVE SOME POTENCY" every single patch.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Again, you cannot calculate your kill time from your team's adps. It's a bit of a nonsense parameter outside of the context of figuring out buff windows and timings. You can, however, calculate your kill time from summing your team's rdps.

Either way, you're focusing on the wrong issues by debating over differences of a hundred dps or so and cherry picking which metric you want to use to beg for 50 potency buffs. The unfortunate truth is that the rest of your team just doesn't care about minor variations in tank dps because you are simply not the heavy lifters here. And that's really the thing that you should be united in fighting for.

Tanks should have carry potential, be it mechanically, dps, or both. As it stands right now, the only reason why the role matters is to get you into the instance. Tanks really get into their heads about min-maxing their gameplay, but you don't really understand how meaningless your efforts are until you give up the 'support' lifestyle and cross over to the dark side to see what it's like to really have an impact. As long as you don't die to something silly and get a DPS killed from an auto/TB, or go for uptime at the expense of that of a DPS, the rest of your team actually doesn't care what you do.

Unless and until that changes, you should strongly reconsider your investment in the role. This is a fantastic tier, but it's the most depressing one that I've seen for tanks in a long time.

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It's really sad that all mechanics tied to tanks (aggro management, boss positionning, adds...) just go removed or made irrelevant. Tanks don't really have anything specific to them, outside of a set assortment of damage reducing abilities that are not that different from each other save for their short CD and invuln'. I'd kind of like tanks to have own situations where they have one took that is a little bit better for some situations and helps with tanking better. Be it as a MT or OT. But well that period is behind us.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Again, you cannot calculate your kill time from your team's adps. It's a bit of a nonsense parameter outside of the context of figuring out buff windows and timings. You can, however, calculate your kill time from summing your team's rdps.

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A given team's aDPS and rDPS are identical.

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Originally Posted by Kalaam

It's really sad that all mechanics tied to tanks (aggro management, boss positionning, adds...) just go removed or made irrelevant.

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Aggro management wasn't the tanks responsibility after 3 GCDs, all on DPS/Healers. Only tanks took responsibility if you had incompetent peeps to press -enmity ability.
Boss Positioning still kinda exists, avoiding any means of turning still counts, just this tier everything is massively sized. P5S is the only one to have positioning this tier.

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Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

????

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This is completely false.

The aDPS calculation discards all damage gained from single target buffs permanently. Nobody benefits from them. That's why it's an artificial metric.

rDPS redistributes the damage to the provider of the buff regardless of whether it is a single target buff or an AoE buff. That's why it ends up being equivalent to your party's actual damage, just reallocated.

True, targeted buffs are discarded going from DPS to aDPS (it also doesn't account for Everburn, for what it's worth). Funnily enough, this actually means that tank balance is even less balanced (albeit slightly) than either rDPS or aDPS conveys, since DRK can be a valid target for those targeted buffs.

I suppose you could argue that this isn't relevant so long as DRK isn't the best target in the game at any given point, but that's not entirely fair, I don't think.

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Originally Posted by Launched

rdps is good for comparing against other players on the same job, not for comparing jobs. It doesn't matter that a PLD will do more damage than DRK when hitting a dummy/ignoring other people, what matters is that in an actual group, a DRK will offer more total DPS by putting more potency inside raid buffs. You can look at adps and apply that dps to the DRK, or rdps and apply that DPS to the NIN, DNC, DRG etc., but either way, an identical group with a DRK instead of PLD will have more total dps and kill faster. adps is good for comparing jobs against each other, especially jobs that have no raid buffs of their own like tanks.

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Nope, nDPS is the metric for intra job comparisons as its whole point is "how well did I do my rotation?" By cutting away both your buffs to others and their buffs to you.

rDPS is probably the best metric for inter job comparisons as it is a flat "this is what this job provided to the group" and probably the worst metric for intra because of how reliant on comp it is--a problem that fades as data points grow and get aggregated.

aDPS is pre-ShB parsing but with single target padding removed.

Raiders and Balance will tell you aDPS is more important for tanks in dedicated Savage/Ultimate killing, and so will I, it is.

Put a Pld over a Gnb, or Drk in a fully BIS raid team and get a solid run.
Now for the original Drk and Gnb, same team, fully bis, solid run, Drk/Gnb would still be faster.

As previously stated rDPS is only a good measure for Pld vs Pld, Drk vs Drk, Gnb vs Gnb. In a raid setting for higher performance speeds, rDPS is irrelevant, it's performing the most optimal cooldown usage and 2 mins. Pld in the aDPS department falls lower than Warrior, and that's terrible for a HC raid team. Certain jobs have to take a hit in their rDPS measure for a faster kill, it's all dependant of kill time and rotation.

rDPS if you wanna log run against other players using the same job.
aDPS if you want faster kill and competitive other raid teams.

Focusing rDPS to try and competition other teams is never going to happen.

It seems counterintuitive to use a metric that counts on other people using your buffs well to measure how well *you* did as opposed to the metric that only measures how well you did, but the balance has had some wild takes in the past so I guess I'm not surprised.

For usual jobs, faster kills usually results to a higher performing parse. Pld has increased rDPS, flaw is it's losing a lot of raid buff gains and that effects kill speed a lot and difficulty defeating enrage for new kills. DRK/GNB/WAR are perfectly synced to 60s-2 min cooldowns and this benefits hugely for a whole team. Pld de-syncs on raid buffs far too quickly and loses too much DPS trying it, it's terrible for trying to push faster kills. Can release the next raid tier 6.4 Pld remaining same performance, 97%+ raiders would still pick GNB/DRK.

SHBs Pld did in fact sync with 60s-2 mins, anyone else telling otherwise is lying, or isn't a raider. Pld has 8 GCDs in Spell Speed spectrum, SHBs it had 5 so it could skip 1 Holy Spirit twice and remained with the 60s-2 min cooldowns, pushing competitive against GNB/DRK.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

It seems counterintuitive to use a metric that counts on other people using your buffs well to measure how well *you* did as opposed to the metric that only measures how well you did, but the balance has had some wild takes in the past so I guess I'm not surprised.

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Well, for tanks rDPS = nDPS and aDPS = DPS (possible exceptions if you're a DRK). If there was a tank with a raid buff, then the discourse would be different.

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Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

Well, for tanks rDPS = nDPS and aDPS = DPS (possible exceptions if you're a DRK). If there was a tank with a raid buff, then the discourse would be different.

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That's fair I guess, but in the case of aDPS, the tank benefits in some fantastic ways from buffs like Mug, Embo, etc since they're not single target "padding" buffs. Which itself is counterintuitive to measuring a job's performance relative to others.

Being better at funneling into buffs is relevant when comparing job performance, but not player performance (at least not necessarily).

Actually thats fair, more I consider it the more that makes sense for tanks to use aDPS instead.

Ideally you would be looking at actual DPS to show how good you are at making the best of raid buffs, even as a tank. Thats another skill to have as more dps = boss dies faster.

In reality however, if youre pugging, good luck finding a group that can allign their raid buffs properly. I've had so many dancers (no offense to them, I also play dancer) that for some reasons I dont understand held on to their buff by 10-20 seconds late. They put it out when most jobs are doing their 123 combos lol.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

Actually thats fair, more I consider it the more that makes sense for tanks to use aDPS instead.

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You generally want to consider both, albeit for different reasons. Like Undeadfire said, rDPS is good when comparing the same tank while aDPS is how well you perform under party buffs relative to other tanks. They're both valuable but aDPS is seen as the better metric because it's less selfishly inclined.