They need to rethink how they do story in 7.0 +

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Originally Posted by Bellsong

Story is gonna be a lot better now that Zenos is dead though, what's to complain about? :v

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"Hey we Scions need to not meet up in groups to keep people from worrying." Next patch has the Scions immediately group up again.

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Originally Posted by Amenara

"Hey we Scions need to not meet up in groups to keep people from worrying." Next patch has the Scions immediately group up again.

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Yeah but it'll be on a different shard/unexplored isolated continent so it'll be k no one will worry.

Still better than Stormblood Zenos though.

Honestly.

I'm OK with it, but some of the slice-of-life or more filler parts of the content ultimately shouldn't have belonged in the main story, mainly because it detracts from the severity of it all, and that is a hard thing to balance when you're effectively tying up the end of the world. If the subject of the story were not the end of the world then it would have been a whole lot better. It's not like it was bad filler as such (of the variety of going to sniff a chocobo or playing hide and seek with Yugiri) -- Just hard to juggle.

Some parts of the Thavnair story would have absolutely been better to relegate to a side story.

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Originally Posted by Soge01

Endwalker's story felt rushed. We spent too much time talking and hanging out with the Scions in Sharlyan and not enough time actually seeing them actively trying to stop the Final Days. If the pace of the story was slowed down while those more casual moments were clipped down some, I think the expansion would have been much better.

6.1's part of the story was way better paced. It felt like it went back to the old story telling pace FFXIV had done in its past expansions, which I greatly enjoyed. In 6.0, I kid you not, I was falling asleep having to trudge around Sharlyan with the Scions for the one millionth time.

Don't get me wrong, I still loved those moments with the Scions. But like I said before, those types of moments should have been cut down as they were far too long and it honestly cheapened the impending doom that was supposed to be the Final Days.

I understand what the devs were trying to do, but it was far too much hopium shoved in your face the whole time and not enough hopelessness that challenged that.

Radz-at-Han did a great job displaying the despair that was the Final Days, both the fake and real one, while the Scions tried to help stop the outbreak. If there was a more evened out contrast between that and those fleeting peaceful moments we spent with the Scions in Sharlyan, then i think the expansion would have turned out far better than it did.

Again, too much focus on the Scions walking about in Sharlyan and not enough focus on showcasing the Final Days and all the people's motives that either brought it about or tried to prevent it.

I hope to never see this type of rushed and flip flopped pacing in FFXIV ever again as it dam near killed all the hype for me and literally was almost putting me to sleep half the time.

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It was badly rushed. As I read (in more that one place) there was at last 2 expansions mixed here. It clearly shows.

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Originally Posted by Bellsong

Yeah but it'll be on a different shard/unexplored isolated continent so it'll be k no one will worry.

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No it will not be okay, because we're the ones who have to look at this nonsensical storytelling.

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Originally Posted by Veranolth

Still beats doing poop quests in WoW.

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You know that this game has a poop quest too, right?

So some say it was rushed, others say it dragged to long. I felt the pace was fine. Each place had ample time given to it and I for one like that they give the characters time to chill out and rest. They're people at the end of the day and can't just trudge forth like machines. So.t think I'd be as invested in a story that was just laser focused doom n gloom the whole time. Also call me weird but if it's a part of the main story being told I've never seen it as filler.

i like you don't offer any solution on how to progress in the story without doing labour work

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

So some say it was rushed, others say it dragged to long. I felt the pace was fine. Each place had ample time given to it and I for one like that they give the characters time to chill out and rest. They're people at the end of the day and can't just trudge forth like machines. So.t think I'd be as invested in a story that was just laser focused doom n gloom the whole time. Also call me weird but if it's a part of the main story being told I've never seen it as filler.

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You can see it as you like,that's fine. A filler is part of a story that if you take out will have no effect on the story.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

So some say it was rushed, others say it dragged to long. I felt the pace was fine. Each place had ample time given to it and I for one like that they give the characters time to chill out and rest. They're people at the end of the day and can't just trudge forth like machines. So.t think I'd be as invested in a story that was just laser focused doom n gloom the whole time. Also call me weird but if it's a part of the main story being told I've never seen it as filler.

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The story itself wasn't paced too badly overall, but I do feel that we were rushed through every zone but Garlemald. Garlemald was done dirty (in my opinion) but story wise it was paced pretty well. We spent a lot of time there, which sadly wasn't the case for most other zones. Labyrinthos was a zone that we were in and out of like nobody's business. Even Ultima Thule was basically just a big rush to the dead star in the center. It would have been nice to have been given time to enjoy the zones that they created a bit more and have the opportunity to just...take it all in like they did in previous expansions. It should be about the journey, not the destination.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Honestly.

I'm OK with it, but some of the slice-of-life or more filler parts of the content ultimately shouldn't have belonged in the main story, mainly because it detracts from the severity of it all, and that is a hard thing to balance when you're effectively tying up the end of the world. If the subject of the story were not the end of the world then it would have been a whole lot better. It's not like it was bad filler as such (of the variety of going to sniff a chocobo or playing hide and seek with Yugiri) -- Just hard to juggle.

Some parts of the Thavnair story would have absolutely been better to relegate to a side story.

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This.

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Originally Posted by magitekLuna

It was badly rushed. As I read (in more that one place) there was at last 2 expansions mixed here. It clearly shows.

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And this.

I hope Yoshi-P never does any of this again. Every other expnasion had a far better balance with the tranquil and life threatening moments, and 6.0 did not need to be the end expansion to the Hydaleyn/Zodiark arc, but the the part 1 part of it. Don't care how badly he wanted to wrap up that part of the story, writing gigantic long running stories like this takes time and patience.

Again, I hope Yoshi-P doesn't make mistakes like this again with the direction of FFXIV's story.

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Originally Posted by Soge01

I hope Yoshi-P never does any of this again. Every other expnasion had a far better balance with the tranquil and life threatening moments, and 6.0 did not need to be the end expansion to the Hydaleyn/Zodiark arc, but the the part 1 part of it. Don't care how badly he wanted to wrap up that part of the story, writing gigantic long running stories like this takes time and patience.

Again, I hope Yoshi-P doesn't make mistakes like this again with the direction of FFXIV's story.

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Well once FF16 gets (maybe) released next year, him and all the developers from FF14 that moved over to that project can come back and we can get the same quality of story that ShB brought.

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Originally Posted by Amenara

Well once FF16 gets (maybe) released next year, him and all the developers from FF14 that moved over to that project can come back and we can get the same quality of story that ShB brought.

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The proem is not the team but yoshi him self. If you remember they dated 6.0 to fix the story and make it work. Think how bad it was originally.

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Originally Posted by magitekLuna

The proem is not the team but yoshi him self. If you remember they dated 6.0 to fix the story and make it work. Think how bad it was originally.

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Pretty sure they delayed by 2 weeks to make sure everything was polished storywise. Aso I'll never understand why folks talk as if ShB was far better and had superior pacing. As someone who went through it again with alts in my experience it has worse pacing (still an amazing expac ofc). Remember, you not liking something doesn't automatically make it a mistake

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

Pretty sure they delayed by 2 weeks to make sure everything was polished storywise. Aso I'll never understand why folks talk as if ShB was far better and had superior pacing. As someone who went through it again with alts in my experience it has worse pacing (still an amazing expac ofc). Remember, you not liking something doesn't automatically make it a mistake

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No no you got it wrong. The 2 weaks was an extra on top of the extra. Yushi home self did say it's do they can work on the msq.SbB was just better. It was ONE story that lasted for a nice time. The main villain was one if the best in FF and in RPG over all.as I did say there good parts in 6.0 there just to much mixed story's and non of them get the time to work . On top of it there touch filler that do not work in the time they are in.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

Not every villain needs to have this big huge theatrical motivation to destroy the world or enslave it, or needs some sappy backstory to make us feel bad for them and understand their motivation...or even turn heel and agree with them/side with them.
Sometimes a Good Fun villain can be the most simple thing; Somebody who just wants a good fight, and will do everything in their power to get that good fight, even to the point of obsession and they may do truly bad things to get what they want.

Zenos was a Good Villain.
He was truly the one entity that could stand with us.
Plus what other Villain Denied us the killing blow by taking his own life with a smile? Thats a true Villain right there.

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The problem is we did all this already in SB. His entire arc after they brought him back is the same thing with nothing new. It’s bland and stale. He relied on Fandaniel in ShB to make his scenes somewhat appealing because he sat on his ass for an entire expansion.

Ehhhhhh. I could never call any scene Fandaniel was in even the least bit "appealing". He made a terrible first impression on me in 5.3, and that never went away, even when he underwent a name change to "Amon". If anything, the scenes with Fandaniel were carried by Zenos, and not vice-versa. At least Zenos had an interesting type of logic to him, and a desire to understand you and be understood. Fandaniel was just "The Joker except not funny".

Fandaniel is the type of villain they had Emet-Selch pretend to be until he realized it was a bad idea. In this expac, they just stuck with the bad idea.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

Ehhhhhh. I could never call any scene Fandaniel was in even the least bit "appealing". He made a terrible first impression on me in 5.3, and that never went away, even when he underwent a name change to "Amon". If anything, the scenes with Fandaniel were carried by Zenos, and not vice-versa. At least Zenos had an interesting type of logic to him, and a desire to understand you and be understood. Fandaniel was just "The Joker except not funny".

Fandaniel is the type of villain they had Emet-Selch pretend to be until he realized it was a bad idea. In this expac, they just stuck with the bad idea.

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Thats your opinion, i didnt find him incredibly appealing but its hard to deny he didnt carry the scenes when for most of them zenos sat on a throne and grunted and rehashed his lines from SB.

Re: DRK. The whole 30-50 arc is about how part of the WoL feels like a "slave" and yearns for freedom.

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Originally Posted by Soge01

After all, she, her decipiles, Azem, Emet-Selch and Hytholodeous are anomalies among their people. They all have the will to survive and see things through to the end, no matter how painful and soul wrenching it can get. The rest of the Ancients are all just basically giant brains with no capability to survive without their magicks. Emet-Selch's recreation of the Final Days, plus Venat crytalized amalgamation of that time shows just how hopeless the Ancients were without their creation magicks.

Though again, it would have been nice to see that contrast between a worldy traveled and well versed fighter like Venat compared to your average Ancient, who, again is nothing but a giant brain with a ton of magical power but useless without the latter while we were there prrsent in Elpis instead of a flashback later on when we leave. Because her sudden change in stance, along with Hermes sudden distrust of the gang when Metion started her report through me for a loop, as it was so dam out of the blue and you could tell there was supoosed to be a least a few more cutscenes before those moments even happened so we'd understand exactly what was going on in both those moments. xD

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I don't know what gave you the impression they're anomalies aside from using Venat's strawmen as your standard of measurement. I'd recommended reading this post about Venat being an ideologue.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Thats your opinion, i didnt find him incredibly appealing but its hard to deny he didnt carry the scenes when for most of them zenos sat on a throne and grunted and rehashed his lines from SB.

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Likewise, that's your opinion. Also...are you dipping back into 5.x? Because otherwise, I don't recall a single time Zenos "sat on a throne", unless you count a dinner chair no different than the one the WOL was sitting in. And yes, I checked. But if you remember differently, please correct me.

And even still, this was at least a chance to interact with and contrast with the WOL, and Fandaniel endlessly hamming it up isn't a valid substitute for actual character to me.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

Ehhhhhh. I could never call any scene Fandaniel was in even the least bit "appealing". He made a terrible first impression on me in 5.3, and that never went away, even when he underwent a name change to "Amon". If anything, the scenes with Fandaniel were carried by Zenos, and not vice-versa. At least Zenos had an interesting type of logic to him, and a desire to understand you and be understood. Fandaniel was just "The Joker except not funny".

Fandaniel is the type of villain they had Emet-Selch pretend to be until he realized it was a bad idea. In this expac, they just stuck with the bad idea.

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Amon never struck me as anything close to being like the Joker. And Amons logic would unfold through the story mostly after his death in the first quarter of the game. His goal was still basically the same as Hermes, he just took ore of a hands on approach. But ofc, opinions

Also wouldn't say they had Emet pretending to be Fandaniel. He seemed more like Ardyn from XV to me

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

Likewise, that's your opinion. Also...are you dipping back into 5.x? Because otherwise, I don't recall a single time Zenos "sat on a throne", unless you count a dinner chair no different than the one the WOL was sitting in. And yes, I checked. But if you remember differently, please correct me.

And even still, this was at least a chance to interact with and contrast with the WOL, and Fandaniel endlessly hamming it up isn't a valid substitute for actual character to me.

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Yes i’m talking about ShB that’s why i said ShB lol

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Yes i’m talking about ShB that’s why i said ShB lol

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Gotcha. I didn't catch that there was an "h" missing in "rehashed his lines from SB". My bad.

Still disagree about the ShB expansions, though. Fandaniel was the worst part of those senses to me, but...opinions.

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Originally Posted by magitekLuna

You can see it as you like,that's fine. A filler is part of a story that if you take out will have no effect on the story.

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We don't always see how relevant something is when it's first introduced, though. Case in point, Alisaie's whole story with Ga Bu. That seemed like just side filler to add some character depth, but ended up being incredibly important. And they do this throughout the MSQ.

I think that the game will need more open world content and, well, gameplay. One of the reasons I make a lot of alts is ARR is one of the most fun expansions to actually play.

Endwalker especially felt like lots of walking from one cutscene to the next. I think I only ever went off the main paths to grab aether currents.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

If this game was done in one language, that would seem feasible, but it's done in 5 or 6. That's your multiplier for each hour of voiceover which probably costs close to 200$ / hour for the actor and studio time. Of course, there's additional time for the team to fit all that in. Before that, there's the audition process. It's a lot of extra time and effort for something many will casually skip.

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"However, typically, video game voice actors will receive between $200 and $350 per hour, with a minimum of two to four hours guaranteed per job. If you are working on a union contract, if a single session lasts up to four hours, you could be making $850 for a single session. This rate is typically for more seasoned video game voice actors. " (source: https://performerlife.com/video-game-voice-actors/).

A majority of the major video game producers are required to utilize union voice actors.

SAG-AFTRA rates are:

"DAY PERFORMER RATE - $875.75
This Off-Camera RATE is paid for any single Interactive Platform performance of up to Three Voices during a Four Hour Day. Add $292.00 for each additional voice. The Day Performer RATE for 1 voice / 1 hour is $404.65. Voices used on any ON-LINE or NETWORK Platform or used as a ‘LIFT’ to another program, add an additional 100% of the original RATE in each case if the rights are acquired within one year of initial release and 110% after such period." (Source: https://voiceoverresourceguide.com/s...fees-us-rates/)

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

We don't always see how relevant something is when it's first introduced, though. Case in point, Alisaie's whole story with Ga Bu. That seemed like just side filler to add some character depth, but ended up being incredibly important. And they do this throughout the MSQ.

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But I say this after finishing the story. Then you see well what worked and what was to make it a longer game. Longer do not make better. Look at the new TMNT game. It's short but so fun. Why? No filler nothing stay to long. All the filler need to be side quests. So the people that like them can do them.

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Originally Posted by magitekLuna

But I say this after finishing the story. Then you see well what worked and what was to make it a longer game. Longer do not make better. Look at the new TMNT game. It's short but so fun. Why? No filler nothing stay to long. All the filler need to be side quests. So the people that like them can do them.

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My point is that you don't know what is and isn't filler because you don't know what's going to become relevant in the future. You haven't finished the story in XIV. It's still ongoing. You've finished this arc, but there's every possibility small things from previous expansions will get the forefront in importance again in future expansions.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

My point is that you don't know what is and isn't filler because you don't know what's going to become relevant in the future. You haven't finished the story in XIV. It's still ongoing. You've finished this arc, but there's every possibility small things from previous expansions will get the forefront in importance again in future expansions.

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They finished the story non will be.i finished 2.0 up to 6.1 and by 6.0 ending non is relevent for 6.1 and on. What importance me serving tea or move boxes or go from point at to b to c to a will have?

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

Pretty sure they delayed by 2 weeks to make sure everything was polished storywise. Aso I'll never understand why folks talk as if ShB was far better and had superior pacing. As someone who went through it again with alts in my experience it has worse pacing (still an amazing expac ofc). Remember, you not liking something doesn't automatically make it a mistake

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The pacing was weird to me, I think the most egregious one being going from Zodiark fight and the beginning of the final days to bunny side quests for the next couple hours on the moon. I also think thematically the Final Days felt real for about an hour or two in Thav part 2 and the Garlean duty and that was it. It didn't feel like a threat that was always present, something that we needed to hurry and fix before everyone was killed.

I think Labyrinthos was also very egregious as a filler zone when nothing there felt plot important other than picking a flower that randomly popped up in the story to say "Hey, everyone is happy or Hey everyone is sad" then the flower died. I am not saying Shadowbringers pacing was perfect as there were some definite slogs in Raktika and Ahm Areng part 2, but I always felt like there was a purpose for what was happening and that it had a nice build up with less jerking us around emotionally.

Everyone in this thread saying "actually it's NECESSARY filler, you gotta have slow moments in a story" forget that there is such a thing as TOO much slow moments, to the point where it drags down a story. Taking bunnies on a tour while the world burns is not "worldbuilding" or in any way necessary filler, it's the devs deliberately wasting your time to artificially pad out a story so that players didn't get to level cap too soon and realize the severe lack of content brought by Endwalker's 6.0 patch.

Stories need balance between the highs and the lows and the devs of this game have consistently failed to understand what is and isn't just plain useless filler, or deliberately put that useless filler in. The story of this game is good, but it has some of the worst pacing of any story I have ever experienced. I would argue a good 50% or more of the plot, everything from arr to endwalker, could be straight up cut out and nothing of value would be lost. It would actually IMPROVE the story, I would even argue.

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Originally Posted by YukikoKurosawa

Taking bunnies on a tour while the world burns is not "worldbuilding" or in any way necessary filler

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This isn't a movie where a montage is used to express the passage of time.

Truth be told, the reason you are taking the 'bunnies' on a tour is because the actual vehicle you're going to use to resolve the burning world isn't ready yet and the builders don't want you to stray so far away that you cannot be easily recalled when it is ready.

You are welcome to your opinion about the pacing of the story, but that comes down to personal preference, not flaws in design.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

This isn't a movie where a montage is used to express the passage of time.

Truth be told, the reason you are taking the 'bunnies' on a tour is because the actual vehicle you're going to use to resolve the burning world isn't ready yet and the builders don't want you to stray so far away that you cannot be easily recalled when it is ready.

You are welcome to your opinion about the pacing of the story, but that comes down to personal preference, not flaws in design.

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There was onlly 2 parts of the world efected? Really? This was need to finish the story. Why we not ever go to the older places from 2.0-4.0? They did not got efected by the end of the world? May be this be a more plot relevant time waster?as for you can't use a montage to pass time, why not?

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Originally Posted by YukikoKurosawa

Everyone in this thread saying "actually it's NECESSARY filler, you gotta have slow moments in a story" forget that there is such a thing as TOO much slow moments, to the point where it drags down a story. Taking bunnies on a tour while the world burns is not "worldbuilding" or in any way necessary filler, it's the devs deliberately wasting your time to artificially pad out a story so that players didn't get to level cap too soon and realize the severe lack of content brought by Endwalker's 6.0 patch.

Stories need balance between the highs and the lows and the devs of this game have consistently failed to understand what is and isn't just plain useless filler, or deliberately put that useless filler in. The story of this game is good, but it has some of the worst pacing of any story I have ever experienced. I would argue a good 50% or more of the plot, everything from arr to endwalker, could be straight up cut out and nothing of value would be lost. It would actually IMPROVE the story, I would even argue.

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What's "useless" varies by the person frankly. And what's bad pacing also is subjective. You're clearly coming from a place of negativity andcthats fine. I'm just glad I find enjoyment in the time the story takes to flesh things out or give us a break. If you don't like the pacing skip cutscenes and read the journal. Problem solved

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Originally Posted by magitekLuna

There was onlly 2 parts of the world efected? Really? This was need to finish the story. Why we not ever go to the older places from 2.0-4.0? They did not got efected by the end of the world? May be this be a more plot relevant time waster?as for you can't use a montage to pass time, why not?

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The Watcher explained that even in the original Final Days, it only manifested in a couple of places at first. We cut off the Final Days before it got to the point it did in Ancient times.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

The Watcher explained that even in the original Final Days, it only manifested in a couple of places at first. We cut off the Final Days before it got to the point it did in Ancient times.

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But we never even go there to see if it's so or not. What's up in doma? How the aura tribes doing? Alamigans doing ok? Like they helped in the war now they can kill them self as far as the plot cares. It's focus on the new places onlly and in a FINAL part of this story / arc is stupid. Let use go there and see as a time waster over moving boxes.

We need more inventive gameplay in the MSQ because a lot of the time now it just feels like a visual novel. Mgs has a lot of cutscenes but I dont mind it because stuff actually happens and the plot moves (that and it's a linear game). Whereas in xiv theyll use 20 text boxes, with the stiff character animations just to say something they couldve said in a single line. So much fluff. I will say it was nice to see some areas of Ew moving in this direction, like the body swap duty etc.

This sounds like "I want my favorite TV show to have more seasons but will be mad if there are any filler episodes".