Rescue Needs to GO

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I actually never get to Rescue in Savage. What causes deaths in Savage is never stack mechanics, but specific positioning where someone needs to be somewhere that I can't be. Rescuing them to my side does not help resolve the mechanic. What good does Rescue do me in P2S limit cut or overflow? P3S FoF? Nados? P4S Act II? Act IV?

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For Pandaemonium I have seen a few rescues in P4S for melees that forgot to stack with their healer and just keep hitting the boss. Especially when it was still new, not recently.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

I have never seen it used effectively, ever. All I've ever seen is it being used to troll, harass, and kill other players by healers that think it's a fun joke to pull a random player into a one shot mechanic or a pit.
Knockback attacks have nothing to do with this, it's not another player dictating where you are with little to no input from you. If some healer wants to pull me from the other side of Hell's Keir I just die, nothing I can do unless I manage to hit arm's length fast enough. If they're going to keep it they need to at the very least allow an opt out feature so you can't be moved by people who aren't on your friends list. I'm sick of getting pulled into one shots and having to sit on the ground while the healer has a chuckle and eventually decides to res me.

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That's because either you've made up your mind and you're not interested in giving the ability a fair shake, or your simply not running real content with players that are able and willing to think on their feet.

Plenty of decent uses have been listed here. It was practically a mandatory ability for the main O12S II strat and I personally got value out of it occasionally on weekly clears if someone got caught napping.

IMHO the ability could and should be executed much better than it is. But then given the state of healers as a whole, that's not very likely to happen sadly.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

What good does Rescue do me in P2S limit cut or overflow? P3S FoF? Nados? P4S Act II? Act IV?

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The most common usage for me lately has been P3S Darkened fire when my partner forgets to stack with me.

It's got some value in Endsinger EX as well.

You should have an opt-out... But opting-out of Rescue should also opt you out of all incoming healing. If you don't like "having control taken away from you" you should stay in complete control of your own healthbar too. ;)

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I actually never get to Rescue in Savage. What causes deaths in Savage is never stack mechanics, but specific positioning where someone needs to be somewhere that I can't be. Rescuing them to my side does not help resolve the mechanic. What good does Rescue do me in P2S limit cut or overflow? P3S FoF? Nados? P4S Act II? Act IV?

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Rescue was a huge boon in O12S back when people actually had to do Hello World properly. I'm not a big raider, but even I can name one off the top off my head.

Maybe too much to ask but rework it to do a 3 second invincibility with a 2 min cool down so it is use optimal will suffice?

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Originally Posted by IceBlueNinja

Maybe too much to ask but rework it to do a 3 second invincibility with a 2 min cool down so it is use optimal will suffice?

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The only issue is that rescue would end up losing the identity of repositioning players and transform into a tank cooldown at least for single target busters or denying certain things due to invincibility, i don't even wanna think about being asked to rescue a tank that's about to eat an elegant evisceration or demigod double in p4s lol.

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

Rescue was a huge boon in O12S back when people actually had to do Hello World properly. I'm not a big raider, but even I can name one off the top off my head.

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So far what's been listed is savage mechanics, which are unaffected by adding an opt-out option. You would just turn it back on when you're in a savage party and you could still use your strats.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

So far what's been listed is savage mechanics, which are unaffected by adding an opt-out option. You would just turn it back on when you're in a savage party and you could still use your strats.

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Or you could just stop being a baby about getting one bad rescue at most once in 10 hours of game time. Like I've been playing a couple years and only once have I've been killed by a Rescue and it was a honest mistake, once by an overeager healer when I was greeding (but who cares in normal content), a couple times by accident for no effect. Rescue trolling by randoms isn't the epidemic you are making it out to be. If it happens to you constantly you probably doing what I'm doing the vast majority of times I get rescued: standing in bad.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

So far what's been listed is savage mechanics, which are unaffected by adding an opt-out option. You would just turn it back on when you're in a savage party and you could still use your strats.

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Most of uses of Rescue are in normal raids and trials, where simply getting out of dodge in time is the only requirement. That’s one way SE makes those fights easier for players like you. Stack markers and knockbacks are plentiful, but back to back tracking puddle AoEs (the ones that follow one player’s movement) or ones that split the room in half or between in/out are also common and can be utter coin flips with additional layers on top.

Hell, I’ve saved more people from running the wrong direction on Shinryu’s phase 3 transition charge in a day one lockout than I’ve troll rescued in my entire game time.

Let’s go down the tier for examples:
P1N: In/Out and Intemperance get people on their first go around and checking for that first hit is easy. Rarely a problem now.

P2N: Keeping people out of the water and in healing range are common reasons but the former but can be difficult to pull off. Cataracts and Coherence’s line stack aren’t atypical things to rescue new players for. This’ll age poorly past 7.0.

P3N: Bennus if someone isn’t placing their AoE on the right mob and/or two are fighting over the same mob. Cross fire AoE if someone forgot/doesn’t know it widens out after connecting in the center. The two combine into a common sore spot so I’ll adjust around the stupid if I have a marker.

P4N: Sword/Cape and Lightning/Water during Baby Pinax consistently get people. Rarely I will rescue the only guy who can cover my own anti role orb or to get people out of the puddles in the middle of the elemental tiles.

I haven’t done the alliance raid but given the arena sizes now you’d better expect to be rescued if you get lost with another party across the map.

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Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

Most of uses of Rescue are in normal raids and trials, where simply getting out of dodge in time is the only requirement. That’s one way SE makes those fights easier for players like you. Stack markers and knockbacks are plentiful, but back to back tracking puddle AoEs (the ones that follow one player’s movement) or ones that split the room in half or between in/out are also common and can be utter coin flips with additional layers on top.

Hell, I’ve saved more people from running the wrong direction on Shinryu’s phase 3 transition charge in a day one lockout than I’ve troll rescued in my entire game time.

Let’s go down the tier for examples:
P1N: In/Out and Intemperance get people on their first go around and checking for that first hit is easy. Rarely a problem now.

P2N: Keeping people out of the water and in healing range are common reasons but the former but can be difficult to pull off. Cataracts and Coherence’s line stack aren’t atypical things to rescue new players for. This’ll age poorly past 7.0.

P3N: Bennus if someone isn’t placing their AoE on the right mob and/or two are fighting over the same mob. Cross fire AoE if someone forgot/doesn’t know it widens out after connecting in the center. The two combine into a common sore spot so I’ll adjust around the stupid if I have a marker.

P4N: Sword/Cape and Lightning/Water during Baby Pinax consistently get people. Rarely I will rescue the only guy who can cover my own anti role orb or to get people out of the puddles in the middle of the elemental tiles.

I haven’t done the alliance raid but given the arena sizes now you’d better expect to be rescued if you get lost with another party across the map.

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None of these mechanic punish the group for one player failing them. If the players fail them then they fail them and learn for the next time.
I don't know if you're purposely misunderstanding me or not but savage mechanics punish the whole group for failing them, normal mode mechanics do not and a player being out of position just impacts them. It's not a big deal if they were to die from a mistake.

Besides, we're talking about having a toggle that most people won't touch. It's not that big of a deal to just give players that power to curate their experience in the game.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

None of these mechanic punish the group for one player failing them. If the players fail them then they fail them and learn for the next time.
I don't know if you're purposely misunderstanding me or not but savage mechanics punish the whole group for failing them, normal mode mechanics do not and a player being out of position just impacts them. It's not a big deal if they were to die from a mistake.

Besides, we're talking about having a toggle that most people won't touch. It's not that big of a deal to just give players that power to curate their experience in the game.

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You're assuming mistakes happen in isolation. I'm assuming they're not. It's that simple.

EDIT: To be clear, the people arguing against you understand two very basic healer concepts. Triage, and Resource Management. We are using Rescue to conserve raise mana and to avoid hardcast raise in the first place. Meaning it's being used in a context where players ARE making enough mistakes to warrant it. Also, it's factually a DPS gain over raise. Not only from the GCDs the DPS lost in the interim AND the weakness penalty, but the GCDs the healer has to use if they're required to hardcast Raise. It's a better tool than Swiftcast if you know what you're doing. And we do. You don't. You wanna be greedy, guess what, sometimes we are too. And it's more satisfying to execute than any DPS rotation in this game, and I play fucking Ninja.

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Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

You're assuming mistakes happen in isolation. I'm assuming they're not. It's that simple.

EDIT: To be clear, the people arguing against you understand two very basic healer concepts. Triage, and Resource Management. We are using Rescue to conserve raise mana and to avoid hardcast raise in the first place. Meaning it's being used in a context where players ARE making enough mistakes to warrant it. Also, it's factually a DPS gain over raise. Not only from the GCDs the DPS lost in the interim AND the weakness penalty, but the GCDs the healer has to use if they're required to hardcast Raise. It's a better tool than Swiftcast if you know what you're doing. And we do. You don't. You wanna be greedy, guess what, sometimes we are too. And it's more satisfying to execute than any DPS rotation in this game, and I play fucking Ninja.

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Why are you so concerned with DPS gain and having a not wasting GCDs in normal mode content? There are absolutely no DPS checks in normal mode content that would warrant that level of optimization. You're just manufacturing a mountain out of a molehill because you want to die on the hill for your right to tell people what they should do. It's not your place to do it and SE has said as much in their TOS under the section about compelling a playstyle. You can't control other people in an online game. Stop trying to micromanage and talk down to people like they're 3 year olds and just play the game. If someone dies and they need to wait on swiftcast for a raise ok then they have to do it. It's casual content, it's designed around this stuff.
A toggle would be a perfect solution to this problem, other games already have it, there's no terrible apocalypse that happened because players could turn it off when they didn't want other people using skills that can move them around. If you want to use it for mechanics or enforce it in a Party Finder for Extremes and Savages where DPS actually matters then go ahead, they can enable it being used on them again. It just saves a whole lot of headaches, arguments, and GM tickets in casual content and roulettes to pre-empt it and let the player say no thanks before it's even used on them.

I want a toggle that allows me to turn off other players' ability to run AOEs into me. Those AOEs could kill me, and that would be controlling my character which is offensive to me.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

I want a toggle that allows me to turn off other players' ability to run AOEs into me. Those AOEs could kill me, and that would be controlling my character which is offensive to me.

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See, Verde? Semi is using sarcasm to highlight the irony of your own statement. Because they understand that I used the same argument another player used to justify not being rescued in the first place that I already refuted in this same thread, underneath the argument you still don’t have a sufficient answer to. Good healers use rescue because it’s free, helps the party, and conserves important resources necessary for covering mistakes, Like every other healer cooldown. A healer using it is doing their job better than one who doesn’t, even if you don’t like it.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

It absolutely can have an opt out, if everyone would opt out of being moved by a random healer if it were offered, doesn't that say something about the skill? That it's really not needed or fun except for the person who's using it?

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This falls apart in two situations:

1. The person in question opting out. I Rescue them because they're greeding and I have a better sense of timing than they do. They take unnecessary damage that could have been avoided.
2. The new person to a dungeon opts out and thus I cannot Rescue them out of the bad and again takes unnecessary damage.

THE WHOLE POINT OF THE HEALING ROLE IS TO PREVENT AND HEAL DAMAGE. Why would you remove a skill that aids us in doing so?

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It's not fun to have control taken away from you, especially when it's taken away by another player and the decision is made entirely by someone else with no input by yourself.

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Hello to my problem with stack markers when I have people running away from me. What? Are we going to remove them too? Or MAYBE I can use RESCUE to move them TO ME.

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If you were to have a toggle it would still let you use it in premade groups if you wanted to for that value, that would still be there. You just wouldn't be able to decide and micromanage where other people can stand.

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If it were made a toggle as we've said REPEATEDLY it makes Rescue a dead skill like Repose. NO.

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And it's not like it even matters if someone messes up and dies, that's part of the game, that's how you learn to play. Besides the fact that everyone stands in mechanics and dies a few times learning, nothing in the game outside of Extreme and Savage content actually punishes the entire group for one player failing, all it does is kill the player who failed the mechanic. the level of micromanaging and trying to boss other players around just seems entirely unneeded. Let them play their own characters man, you don't have to be a control freak and make them do exactly what you want.

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The same can be said of Rescue. I mess up the timing of Rescue to save you and you die. Oh well. I tried to do my job.

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Originally Posted by justice40

The idea that you should have ANY control over another persons character needs to go away. There should be a way for us to turn it off so that healers can not pull us at any point. We should know the dungeon well enough or know enough to get out of the way. But (and I know what they will say "I pulled you to save you from the AOE") No...You pulled me to my death, you interrupted my series of abilities, you turned the creature right towards the party and most of all....brought the aggro.....right towards everyone. So do us all a favor. And for those of you that are using rescue as a "get even" tool. It is a highly reportable offense and people's accounts have been suspended over it. Remember. If you can pull a character than why can't tanks turn off stance.

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You can turn it off, by clicking anti knockback :) it works on it.

The only times I have seen this ability used in a "mean" manner is when I am with friends and they wanna pull me, but I know and just pull an antiKB.

In any other situation it was always useful and used by healers to help.

Your situation sounds like perhaps the person did not understand the tanking aspect. Maybe they are never tanking or not tanking that much. You can stop and explain to them that what they did caused xyz... how you summed it up, sounds like that they tried to help, therefore it is not reportable, as they had no malicious intentions.

It is very hard to judge the situation when we dont know what type of content you were running and what type of conversations went down in the party.

I don’t use it nor I care,

Not my job to rescue anyone from not following through group or mechanics sorts,

Better yet, remove it (Less abilities, the better),

I don’t look; I simply focus on healing & maintaining consistency, but anyone not following they died; I don’t look

PS: That’s why rez exists; it’s the best & obligation I have to follow

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

None of these mechanic punish the group for one player failing them. If the players fail them then they fail them and learn for the next time.
I don't know if you're purposely misunderstanding me or not but savage mechanics punish the whole group for failing them, normal mode mechanics do not and a player being out of position just impacts them. It's not a big deal if they were to die from a mistake.

Besides, we're talking about having a toggle that most people won't touch. It's not that big of a deal to just give players that power to curate their experience in the game.

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Very easy example for you on how failing a mechanic can punish the party: New EW Ex trial 3. If your people stack up vuln stacks due the planets, or because they fail to stand in the meteors (the full party will gain vuln stack based on how many people f up) then comes the big Raid wide and wipes half the team and gives a deadly bleed to the rest that may be still alive. I cannot tell you how many times I died on bleed because the healer needed to focus to keep the tank alive and they choose them over me... a sad feeling when I did all of my mechs perfectly and the 2 melee messed up all of theirs for greed.

I have seen people use rescue here in a very good and useful way and I would not like it to be removed.

I've saved plenty of people with Rescue and even prevented wipes with it.

In my entire time playing the game I've only been killed by rescue once, and that was because the healer thought I was standing in a bad place and their Rescue pulled me through the AoE as it triggered. They apologized and I didn't hold it against them or come to the forums and demand that it be removed.

I don't think a toggle would be a good idea as I don't want to be mashing the button wondering why nothing is happening and the person dies due to standing in the wrong place and having Rescue turned off. Plus now you got the issue of healers complaining they could of prevented your death if you didn't disable the toggle.

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Originally Posted by Vencio

I don’t use it nor I care,

Not my job to rescue anyone from not following through group or mechanics sorts,

Better yet, remove it (Less abilities, the better),

I don’t look; I simply focus on healing & maintaining consistency, but anyone not following they died; I don’t look

PS: That’s why rez exists; it’s the best & obligation I have to follow

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Why should I waste my Swiftcast and 2400 MP when I could of just as easily used Rescue?

Better yet, why even heal someone that got hit by an avoidable mechanic? I could just resurrect them later. Not my job to heal anyone from not following through group or mechanics sorts.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

Why are you so concerned with DPS gain and having a not wasting GCDs in normal mode content? There are absolutely no DPS checks in normal mode content that would warrant that level of optimization. You're just manufacturing a mountain out of a molehill because you want to die on the hill for your right to tell people what they should do. It's not your place to do it and SE has said as much in their TOS under the section about compelling a playstyle. You can't control other people in an online game. Stop trying to micromanage and talk down to people like they're 3 year olds and just play the game. If someone dies and they need to wait on swiftcast for a raise ok then they have to do it. It's casual content, it's designed around this stuff.
A toggle would be a perfect solution to this problem, other games already have it, there's no terrible apocalypse that happened because players could turn it off when they didn't want other people using skills that can move them around. If you want to use it for mechanics or enforce it in a Party Finder for Extremes and Savages where DPS actually matters then go ahead, they can enable it being used on them again. It just saves a whole lot of headaches, arguments, and GM tickets in casual content and roulettes to pre-empt it and let the player say no thanks before it's even used on them.

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Full on cringepost.