If you continue to dumb down the game, you will lose half your player base

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Originally Posted by Shibi

They've finished the FFXIV story. There will be a little extra padding for the die hards, but now they are clearly shifting focus to make the game more suitable for the many millions of solo FF players who skipped XI and XIV.

They could well lose 50% of MMO players, yes, but they will gain 10 times that number in solo-players who can then experience the story from ARR to EW.

There was one tiny hint to the wind down of the game in the last Japanese live letter, #70... Yoshi said "I hope we can still make it to live letter #100". Which goes against the "10 years more" and brings it to a much shorter period. Enough time to push the solo players through.

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That where you are wrong. This solo players leave after a month. Nothing solo players hate more that a unfinished story in an rpg.

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Originally Posted by SamsaraTrickstar

That where you are wrong. This solo players leave after a month. Nothing solo players hate more that a unfinished story in an rpg.

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6.0 finished the main story. That's stated by SE.

The changes now to make ARR and onwards more soloable is also stated by SE.

I expect we can expect another huge trimming of ARR and Post ARR quests to happen in coming patches to speed up the boring parts and help retention. Because ARR and post ARR is still mostly a boring pile of steaming cow poop.

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Originally Posted by Shibi

6.0 finished the main story. That's stated by SE.

The changes now to make ARR and onwards more soloable is also stated by SE.

I expect we can expect another huge trimming of ARR and Post ARR quests to happen in coming patches to speed up the boring parts and help retention. Because ARR and post ARR is still mostly a boring pile of steaming cow poop.

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And going for 10ore years of new story. So?
The reason low lvls are boring is you have no skills and shit it to easy. It's the mix of badly made boring jobs 8n a bad boring content.it geting ok.by lvl 40 to 50.

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Originally Posted by SamsaraTrickstar

...The reason low lvls are boring is you have no skills...

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Yoshi said in Live Letter 70...

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"We also made further adjustments on the balancing on lower levels"
"You will learn some actions sooner on lower levels so it doesn't feel as boring playing them, but that of course results in some potency nerfs"

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More details of this will be in the patch notes tomorrow.

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Originally Posted by MsQi

Honestly I'm getting tired of fighting this battle. Understand that Blizzard had little RPG experience prior to WoW. They had Diablo, which was derivative and more focused on action than RPG elements. Weird for someone in a company (SE) that has a much longer history in RPGs to put WoW on such a pedestal

Wow was a great game, however much of what was great was borrowed from other games, and much of that has been removed. There's nothing wrong with using certain ideas from other games, but it was clear they didn't really understand why they even copied those ideas. Why those ideas helped develop the world and the community was apparently lost on them.

The worst thing was when they started talking about fun. Fun is important, but fun is not hard. In any genre you need to have goals that are bigger than just raw fun. And when WoW devs started talking fun, it meant something that that many people found fun was going away.

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This sounds just like 14 though. The devs have said they take stuff from other games, including WoW. 14 doesn’t really develop the word outside of msq. There’s almost nothing substantial to do on the open world. The whole fun is important aspect you’re talking about reminds me an awful lot of the “solo play is fun” notion they’re trying to push, and it seems to be taking a lot of peoples fun away when that partially equals job simplification and dungeon/trial simplification.

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Originally Posted by ryouma17

having to press 500 different buttons during combat does not make the game fun

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No but around 16-18 isn't 500.
A lot of the buttons aren't pressed often either and have longer CD's.

People severely overexaggerate how many buttons the DPS Jobs have to press, it's especially ridiculous imo when people combine Single Target with AoE into one lump and go '' look at how many buttons ''.
It's really not hard at all to comfortably bind your single target rotation I can do it without even having to turn to shift + or whatever.

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Originally Posted by AnnaUK

My partner quit due to the button bloat recently. He hated it.. "why do we need so many buttons" he said. Noone is asking for 6 buttons active at once like ESO but I do feel there are too many buttons for some jobs.

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Why?...
Your partner can play a different Job...
Why does every Job have to be reduced down because your partner dislikes it? There already are Jobs that require less buttons that they can play.

tbh I doubt it considering people are overall are stupid these days to the point dumbing down something seems like a good thing

a sad fact

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Originally Posted by Nekokaori

tbh I doubt it considering people are overall are stupid these days to the point dumbing down something seems like a good thing

a sad fact

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I dunno about stupid, but I do question sometimes if people are actually interested in *playing games* or not.
Sometimes it feels like people want content to be non-challenging to the point they can just turn their brains off and watch Netflix and see bright lights and '' you won '' pop up on their screens.

Obviously removing the one button isn't going to do that but it's a step in that direction and one step turns into many.
Kaiten in particular I think people severely underestimate too how much it adds to the flow of combat especially as a weaved ability tied to your finishers.
But I just fundamentally disagree with people trying to hand-wave this away by saying that '' more buttons isn't more difficult or skill ''...
It's just objectively wrong I think, pressing an extra button IS more difficult than pressing less and does require more skill, that's not to say it's super hard tho but I don't see how people can with a straight face say that doing less = not easier.
Especially in harder content where there's more going on.

And the thing is too that the people who have issues with this I have serious doubts that they even do the endgame content altogether.
If you have issues with 16-18 buttons or whatever then I seriously doubt you're clearing the Savage tier, it's such a small entry requirement.
If you think you're failing in Savage of Extremes because of supposed button bloat then you're probably just blaming something else for something that is internal, the issue is you at that point I think.
And if you're not in content like that then why does it even matter to you, sure it's going to make the run take longer but then don't use Kaiten I guess.
I mean ffs I see people who constantly ignore positionals in dungeons.

In the end of the day these things being removed makes for less engaging content, in a game that already has issues with content being too easy.
I don't think it's a matter of people being too stupid tho I just think it's a matter of people not wanting to do challenging content but believing that they do or feeling entitled to it.
And they want the game and everyone else to have to adapt to them when the content isn't even designed for them to begin with.

As always, there is a huge bias among the people likely to post on forums compared to the total population of people who play the game. People here play more often, do new content sooner, and are way more likely to do more difficult content in the game than the average player. It's natural for those types of players, for whom a single game is a big part of their lives, to feel like the game is second nature and thus quite simple to execute. Then any decrease in complexity for those people is going from "easy" to "even easier."

But this is simply not the case for a huge percentage of players. They don't level up 17 jobs to the max, they don't cap tomestones every week, and they definitely don't do every raid and extreme and ultimate every time they're added. They play the game for a little bit when new story is added, and it takes up only as much time as the other 30 games they played that year (or they actually have "a life" and don't do that either, but you get the idea). There are way more people who are closer to this style than "half" of the people who play the game, and there are of course even more of them who don't play the game at all because MMOs tend to be inscrutable to newcomers with only really WoW and FFXIV ever breaking out into the mainstream of gaming. I've had a handful of friends who have tried FFXIV out at various points and they are completely overwhelmed by how many actions they have to learn when to use, as well as the thousands of UI settings and various menus that mean nothing until you've played the game for 50 hours.

I don't mean to say that either of these is more valid than the other, just to point out that a company like Square Enix providing a subscription service game is going to go with doing the thing that they think is good for a majority of people and not a minority. It might seem like the forums or "everyone I know" agrees that the game is too simple or too easy, but that sampling is heavily skewed and not likely to be representative of the real majority.

Plus the game is more popular than it's ever been. Claiming that half the playerbase is going to vanish just because they're fixing button bloat is just the worst kind of hyperbole. It won't have a negative effect at all.

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Originally Posted by Tsukino

As always, there is a huge bias among the people likely to post on forums compared to the total population of people who play the game. People here play more often, do new content sooner, and are way more likely to do more difficult content in the game than the average player. It's natural for those types of players, for whom a single game is a big part of their lives, to feel like the game is second nature and thus quite simple to execute. Then any decrease in complexity for those people is going from "easy" to "even easier."

But this is simply not the case for a huge percentage of players. They don't level up 17 jobs to the max, they don't cap tomestones every week, and they definitely don't do every raid and extreme and ultimate every time they're added. They play the game for a little bit when new story is added, and it takes up only as much time as the other 30 games they played that year (or they actually have "a life" and don't do that either, but you get the idea). There are way more people who are closer to this style than "half" of the people who play the game, and there are of course even more of them who don't play the game at all because MMOs tend to be inscrutable to newcomers with only really WoW and FFXIV ever breaking out into the mainstream of gaming. I've had a handful of friends who have tried FFXIV out at various points and they are completely overwhelmed by how many actions they have to learn when to use, as well as the thousands of UI settings and various menus that mean nothing until you've played the game for 50 hours.

I don't mean to say that either of these is more valid than the other, just to point out that a company like Square Enix providing a subscription service game is going to go with doing the thing that they think is good for a majority of people and not a minority. It might seem like the forums or "everyone I know" agrees that the game is too simple or too easy, but that sampling is heavily skewed and not likely to be representative of the real majority.

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I just don't think that the game should be designed for those people.
Those people will manage by playing suboptimally just fine I don't think that you need to lower the skill ceiling or even floor for them.
I see people in dungeons that don't even have their Job crystal yet at lvl 50 and SAM players who are spamming AoE on bosses and doing the backstep, ranged and charge combo over and over again and somehow they still manage to get by in the content they do.
Those people aren't suddenly going to learn because Kaiten gets removed or whatever.

You also learn the actions gradually, you have time to get used to each one of them.
Also if you're a new player you're going to have to learn...
Part of the learning process is not knowing and not being used to things, I just really dislike this mentality that instead of people learning we need to dumb things down.
I see this every time in a game when people run into a challenge and I just kinda find it a bit sad tbh.
And I don't think it should negatively affect the rest of us.

Like is '' beginners aren't playing well '' really an actual argument here?
I see this in fighting games too with people asking for them to be dumbed down because beginners are jumping in and can't do complex combos.
Being able to do complex combos doesn't make you a better player either you can do all the combos in the world and still get your ass kicked.
It's the same in FFXIV, even if they turned the Jobs all into 1 button spam the people these changes are supposedly aimed at would still not clear content where DPS even matters.

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Originally Posted by Demetri_Delethorn

Plus the game is more popular than it's ever been. Claiming that half the playerbase is going to vanish just because they're fixing button bloat is just the worst kind of hyperbole. It won't have a negative effect at all.

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If this was really about fixing '' button bloat '' then why is Kaiten being removed and why isn't Ikishoten turning into Ogi Namikiri or Shoha 1 and 2 being merged?
That'd do more too and actually be more understandable.

If you actually talk to players who play these Jobs I have a very hard time believing that they'd mention Kaiten as button bloat if you asked them.

We don't really have enough information to say the game is being "dumbed down". WoW was technically dumbed down when they introduced Warlords of Draenor, but look at all the changes that happened: It wasn't simplifying controls that did it as much as automation of in-game activities. Players definitely sought efficiency, but at the same time granting that in it's most extreme form simply turned the game into a soul-less husk.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

I just don't think that the game should be designed for those people.
Those people will manage by playing suboptimally just fine I don't think that you need to lower the skill ceiling or even floor for them.
I see people in dungeons that don't even have their Job crystal yet at lvl 50 and SAM players who are spamming AoE on bosses and doing the backstep, ranged and charge combo over and over again and somehow they still manage to get by in the content they do.
Those people aren't suddenly going to learn because Kaiten gets removed or whatever.

You also learn the actions gradually, you have time to get used to each one of them.



If this was really about fixing '' button bloat '' then why is Kaiten being removed and why isn't Ikishoten turning into Ogi Namikiri or Shoha 1 and 2 being merged?
That'd do more to and actually be more understandable.

If you actually talk to players who play these Jobs I have a very hard time believing that they'd mention Kaiten as button bloat if you asked them.

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That's fair, that people don't have to be good at the game or fully understand anything at first, and will eventually get used to it and get better with time and practice. In fact, that works great for people like me (who I weirdly left out for some reason) for whom difficulty is just a non-factor in the games they pick to play or not.

But my point was as a response to the OP, who said half the players will quit if they keep dumbing down the game. They won't, not even close to half of the people who play the game even perceive the game as being simple, they're not even likely to be aware of all the updates and changes.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

We don't really have enough information to say the game is being "dumbed down". WoW was technically dumbed down when they introduced Warlords of Draenor, but look at all the changes that happened: It wasn't simplifying controls that did it as much as automation of in-game activities. Players definitely sought efficiency, but at the same time granting that in it's most extreme form simply turned the game into a soul-less husk.

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Really? So them getting rid of harder mechanics and simplifying dungeons isn’t enough information? Them specifically saying they want to streamline future dungeons isn’t enough information? Them gutting healers and dps jobs every expansion isn’t enough information? What IS enough information?

It's this thread again? It's a simple concept. Keep doing things that alienate the veteran playerbase (less content per patch, hominization of all classes, weak effort ala blue mage and hrothgar, ect.) and they leave. You do get new players but they will eventually become the new vets and see the same problems. Unless the devs can keep that revolving door moving then they will start to see a decline in players. It's not the first time this happened and that's okay, no game can last forever. I would have assumed Endwalker would have taught that lesson, but, you know, the ending and all. Or I might be wrong and glamour really will be the end game at the end of the day!

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Originally Posted by Demetri_Delethorn

Plus the game is more popular than it's ever been. Claiming that half the playerbase is going to vanish just because they're fixing button bloat is just the worst kind of hyperbole. It won't have a negative effect at all.

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first off their is 0 button bloat with any job what so ever I play on controller 1 bar only 1 bar gets filled with any job if you know how to sort out and think how am i going to set up my lay out u have 0 buttton bloat in fact

https://i.ibb.co/Qv8dbjy/ffxiv-10042022-115515-759.png

https://i.ibb.co/YRqTTsC/ffxiv-10042022-115518-579.png


https://i.ibb.co/yYt0gvS/ffxiv-10042022-115508-487.png


https://i.ibb.co/vLjDXJh/ffxiv-10042022-115512-692.png

we dont have enough buttons on any job

very easy and not annoying to switch between bars at all

anyone claiming button bloat is a lier and or 2 stupid to know how to set up bars

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Really? So them getting rid of harder mechanics and simplifying dungeons isn’t enough information? Them specifically saying they want to streamline future dungeons isn’t enough information? Them gutting healers and dps jobs every expansion isn’t enough information? What IS enough information?

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They're trying to figure out how to design the game from a new baseline. It's possible the new style of game they want will be too easy, but they can go from there to change and rebalance things. The things they are streamlining involve content that was built for the transition period when the game went from 1.0 to 2.0. Good old days of stone skin, getting knocked off a platform because ping was horrible and Titan was a nightmare, etc. Also I wouldn't call the changes to jobs streamlining as much as "how do we get this thing to work on controller as well as these other jobs?"

Oh wow, this thread again. I think this thread has appeared at the beginning of almost every expansion, with the exception of HW, screaming about how dumbing down the game is going to lose players...which has not been proven by reality, as the game gets more and more players every expansion.

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Originally Posted by Demetri_Delethorn

Plus the game is more popular than it's ever been. Claiming that half the playerbase is going to vanish just because they're fixing button bloat is just the worst kind of hyperbole. It won't have a negative effect at all.

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WoW was at its height at the start of WotLK, but at the same time they started a new motto "Bring the player and not the class". They simplified classes, and homogenization across the board. They began trivializing non-raid content.

Blizzard stopped reporting subscriptions during WotLK, and the player base began to decline as the expansion grew older. Everything came to a head, and exploded in Blizzards face with the release of Cataclysm.

SE is just repeating history with Endwalker.

Actually according to the latest census its just gone up again..

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Originally Posted by Raim

Actually according to the latest census its just gone up again..

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They're lagged figures in nature, so I wouldn't expect them to show any downward trend just yet as a result of changes coming in 6.1... He notes this himself (google translate so some clumsiness) - note the bolded:

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The number of active characters is about 1.7 million , an increase of 350,000 from the previous time (1.35 million) .
The number of new characters is 430,000 , an increase of about 250,000 from the previous 180,000 .
The number of returning characters that were inactive last time but became active this time is 160,000, an increase of 40,000 from the previous 120,000 .
The number of characters that have been active and continuing since the last time is about 1.1 million , an increase of 1.04 million to 60,000 .
The start of Akatsuki is 1.33 million (up 300,000) . Akatsuki level cap reached 970,000 (up 330,000) . Akatsuki clear is 880,000 (up 310,000) .

The number of active characters was 1.7 million, which was a record high of 1.62 million just before Akatsuki.
The previous survey interval was one and a half months and half of this three months, and after the release of Akatsuki, the official starter pack and complete pack will be suspended from December 16, 2021 to January 2023. Due to the influence of the event held until the 25th, new players were sluggish.

However, new players are not the only factor in this increase. It is 430,000 more than the 560,000 increase when the number of players increased significantly just before Akatsuki. It can be seen that the player base has consistently increased steadily because the number of continuous players that had been maintained while the number of active players was decreasing in the previous time was further increased and the number of new players increased on top of that.

Oceania DC, a new physical data center, has less than 40,000 active characters. There are 5 worlds under it, so about 7700 per world. In Japan, it was about this level before it was jet black, but it is quite rare in overseas DCs. A little less than 40% of the return and continuation are new due to the relocation from the existing data center.
I think that many people who really started from the beginning have not yet reached Lv60 or higher, which is the free trial cutoff, but since a certain player population is required to turn the content, there remains anxiety as the start of the new data center. ..

Speaking of anxiety, if you look at the Steam connection that can estimate the trend of the number of players in real time, the decline after the release of Akatsuki is remarkable.
Steam connection
The number is around May 2021 before the big overseas streamers started FF14 last year.
This graph shows the number of simultaneous connections, so if the story of Akatsuki calms down and the login frequency decreases, it will decrease as it is. If you log in any of the time during the aggregation period and acquire the character's growth, minions, and mounts, it will be judged as an active character in the Lodestone census aggregation, and the login frequency is irrelevant.
The number of active characters of Lodestone will decrease when the login itself during the period disappears, such as the number of players increasing in Akatsuki will be suspended until 7.0 next time,
so it will be the next time how many players will continue to play after 6.1 I would like to pay attention to this in the survey.

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I am more interested to see where these figures will be in 3-6 months, especially when the chunk of players who joined newly prior to EW have fully caught up etc and their 6.0 content model becomes clear.

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Originally Posted by Raim

Actually according to the latest census its just gone up again..

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Significantly higher than the highest it has ever been. The people spouting doom and gloom are so far off base it's almost comical.

Remember: button bloat =/= skill

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Originally Posted by Demetri_Delethorn

Significantly higher than the highest it has ever been. The people spouting doom and gloom are so far off base it's almost comical.

Remember: button bloat =/= skill

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again there has never been and isnt any button bloat... if ur having button bloat well maybe learn to get better organization skills because im on controller and its perfect and doesnt have enough buttons to make things completely enjoyable

beside large amount of this buttons have long cds so u can rlly only use one at a time per pull

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Originally Posted by Nekokaori

again there has never been and isnt any button bloat... if ur having button bloat well maybe learn to get better organization skills because im on controller and its perfect and doesnt have enough buttons to make things completely enjoyable

beside large amount of this buttons have long cds so u can rlly only use one at a time per pull

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And yet, most openers have multiple sets of double weaves.

Your hotbars are for a level 72 dark knight...


Try a lvl 90 dps that isn't smn or dnc.

SAM has 3 spots left out of 36 slots on kb. DRG has something like 4.


And I use most of them every pull.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

And yet, most openers have multiple sets of double weaves.

Your hotbars are for a level 72 dark knight...


Try a lvl 90 dps that isn't smn or dnc.

SAM has 3 spots left out of 36 slots on kb. DRG has something like 4.


And I use most of them every pull.

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this isnt my first character and believe me i played in stormblood when ast, when blm and when summoner had way more bars lol ive never once had issues of button bloat because i have basic reasoning skills on how to set up a bar based on when and how u use ur skills you organize it in that way even if i had 400 abilitys i could organize it and make it work with no issue

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Originally Posted by Demetri_Delethorn

Significantly higher than the highest it has ever been. The people spouting doom and gloom are so far off base it's almost comical.

Remember: button bloat =/= skill

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If you read Lauronts post above, you would know that those numbers were collected over a 3 month continuous period starting shortly after the release of the expansion. They have nothing to do with the current playercount, and are really only interesting in that they show what is likely the peak playercount.


Even the person who released those stats specifically said they couldn't be used to make conclusions about retention rates, and went on to refer to the plummeting steam charts as 'anxious'.

know what heres some math for u and u cant agrue with math

there are 13 action bars for controller
each action bar has 16 buttons

we can easily have 208 buttons so long as we have decent basic knowledge and common sense along with organization skill just fine. If you cant handle that its a personal issue not a button bloat issue

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

If you read Lauronts post above, you would know that those numbers were collected over a 3 month continuous period starting shortly after the release of the expansion. They have nothing to do with the current playercount, and are really only interesting in that they show what is likely the peak playercount.


Even the person who released those stats specifically said they couldn't be used to make conclusions about retention rates, and went on to refer to the plummeting steam charts as 'anxious'.

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Yep, what this thing is showing, as I understand it, is distinctive character activity meeting its criteria between this and the prior census.

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Originally Posted by Nekokaori

know what heres some math for u and u cant agrue with math

there are 13 action bars for controller
each action bar has 16 buttons

we can easily have 208 buttons so long as we have decent basic knowledge and common sense along with organization skill just fine. If you cant handle that its a personal issue not a button bloat issue

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There is no way anyone can handle 208 buttons. Please.


And there are less for keyboard.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

There is no way anyone can handle 208 buttons. Please.


And there are less for keyboard.

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um with the cool downs the way there are ya we could lol and keyboard honestly has methods it could with shift,tab cntrl, shift l and shift r not even counting we could f1 -f12 the buttons for more lol

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Originally Posted by Nekokaori

know what heres some math for u and u cant agrue with math

there are 13 action bars for controller
each action bar has 16 buttons

we can easily have 208 buttons so long as we have decent basic knowledge and common sense along with organization skill just fine. If you cant handle that its a personal issue not a button bloat issue

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.
This is almost as hyperbolic as the people touting button bloat in the first place. Learn the difference between theoretically possible and pragmatic. It's always 1 extreme or another. There is a good reason the WXHB was implemented and this is to provide easy and realistic access to buttons, of which there are really 48.

Who is actually using the F1-F12 buttons for anything? Shift+Key is fine but Ctrl+Key just feels awkward. Tab+ key is similar. There comes a point when adding excesses of buttons creates meaningless, convoluted strings of abilities like the addition off further Shoha skills on Samurai or cooldowns for the sake of cooldowns.

My fun comes from the fight difficulty, not battling against my keyboard or in the past, my controller which I ultimately abandoned because I was sick of button bloat.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

.
This is almost as hyperbolic as the people touting button bloat in the first place. Learn the difference between theoretically possible and pragmatic. It's always 1 extreme or another. There is a good reason the WXHB was implemented and this is to provide easy and realistic access to buttons, of which there are really 48.

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i legitly emote during a battle with all my unusued buttons and i dont even have enough emotes with my buttons on the job so not rlly

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

It is not and never will be our responsibility as paying costumers, the consumers, to deliver a 'well-thought-out and coherent solution' for the product we're consuming.
You are dumping the responsibility for the success of a product on the costumer.

If someone comes to me and wants a tailor-made dress to achieve a specific look it is my job and my responsibility to get all the data I need, to get the right fabric, to design a pattern that works and so on. And if the costumer is unhappy with the result, it is my responsibility to work with whatever feedback they are willing and able to provide as a person without any in-depth knowledge and make it work.
It is not their job to give me a design and pattern according to their vision. They pay me for doing it.

Feedback is feedback and not a spoonfed solution.
If someone says "I want more battle content with some longevity, preferably with different difficulty levels or scaling difficulty" it is the developers' job to find ways to make it work.
Not the costumers job to deliver a fleshed-out system that only needs to be coded. If there happens to be a costumer that is extremely good with such thing and maybe even has some firsthand experience with game developing and can provide a coherent solution that could be used with minor tweaks at best as it is, that's is a bonus an deserves respect but it is not our job.
A gaming company with many, many years of experience in RPGs should be able to work with feedback like "I liked this system that other game had, maybe withou issue X and Y but I liked the core system".

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see I get this analogy. But the problem with using this in relation to something like FFXIV is that the game has more than one customer with various different needs and wants for what they want to consume out of the game.

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Originally Posted by Nekokaori

i legitly emote during a battle with all my unusued buttons and i dont even have enough emotes with my buttons on the job so not rlly

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Yes, and I'm sure you could pull off this self-same behaviour in higher-end content without shafting yourself. Organizing your emotes is entirely different to organizing skills which are distinct across all of the 19 jobs at the end-game. Here is a little maths for you, that is 3952 distinct actions, if we were to take your "208 buttons is fine, it's easy, you just need common sense and some organization skills".

Once again, learn the difference between what is possible in a theoretical world versus what is pragmatic.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Yes, and I'm sure you could pull off this self-same behaviour in higher-end content without shafting yourself. Organizing your emotes is entirely different to organizing skills which are distinct across all of the 19 jobs at the end-game. Here is a little maths for you, that is 3952 distinct actions.

Once again, learn the difference between what is possible in a theoretical world versus what is pragmatic.

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u use 4 buttons no matter at at time atleast on controller all u have to have is muscle memory and organization skills then u just hold r1 and move to that action bar lol its so simple and thoughtless u could easily have over 200 buttons so long as a good amount of them had around the same cd as most of are bad ass skills have lol and switching action bars is instant, you can legitly use a mele ability (with no cast time switch to a bar and dance before ur attack of next stage is rdy lol

Id be ok if they simplified all jobs but only if they derply invested in some kind of skill augmentions later on that changes up how they work or something, toss some kind of variety in there SE, good lord. lol...

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Originally Posted by Nekokaori

first off their is 0 button bloat with any job what so ever I play on controller 1 bar only 1 bar gets filled with any job if you know how to sort out and think how am i going to set up my lay out u have 0 buttton bloat in fact

we dont have enough buttons on any job

very easy and not annoying to switch between bars at all

anyone claiming button bloat is a lier and or 2 stupid to know how to set up bars

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Oh honey, two can play this game. Lets see how an ACTUAL Dark Knight Controller hotbar is like. Thats right Im flexing here.

https://i.imgur.com/qSWluee.png
https://i.imgur.com/nkDeKFC.png

These are my 2 hotbars used for Dark Knight. Barely any skills gets copied into the other and in this case I still lack buttons for adding in all my role action skills like shirk and arms length. I have to actually remember to slot those in whenever I do fights that require tank switching or KB immunity but the case made here is that I barely have enough space to fit in the entirety of DK's skills set into 2 hotbars. Am I gonna complain about it?...No...not really, I'm currently mostly satisfied with the amount of buttons used for DK. However I wont mind removing or altering some to reduce button bloat. I refuse to have a 3rd hotbar just to comfortably slot all of my toolkit.

Bottom line is, you sir are THE LIAR, Some classes do indeed suffer from button bloat. Especially on controller. Thank you and good night.

How are you flexing, if all you are doing is saying that your abilities don't fit on two hotbars?

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Originally Posted by Zsolen

How are you flexing, if all you are doing is saying that your abilities don't fit on two hotbars?

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Yeah...flexing at the person who's clearly lying about the lack of button bloat for controller when they dont even have their entire toolkit setup in their screenshots.