Increase penalty for people leaving roulettes

I generally dislike the idea of people roulette-fishing or leaving the moment any sort of challenge appears. This is hypocritical on some level as I already admitted to leaving Castrum after getting it 14 days in a row - so I completely understand someone being tired of getting the same instances daily like Syrcus or something. I think the in-game system already punishes people enough to ensure they do not make so much a habit of this as they waste too much time of other players. Usually when people leave I can get a replacement within a minute so it's not a huge deal to me unless it's like Aurum Vale and the Tank leaves.

I don't like the idea of adding more punishments though as not everyone leaves for bad reasons. For example. sometimes you que as a DPS and it says the wait is 5 minutes. However what actually ends up happening is it pops at 50 minutes. Having lost track of time, that person may realize they don't actually have time anymore to finish but they had joined and they need to leave. Honest mistake.

People already provided a lot of other reasons that are legitimate. And sometimes the "I don't want to spend my free time like this " is enough given the game still penalizes them already.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

I am just curious if everyone who is all about "players should have the freedom to leave whenever they want it is their time" also champion the idea the players can play however they want since it is also their time and sub. For instance, who are you to say a healer has to do DPS in roulettes, it's their time and sub fee and if they don't want to DPS they shouldn't have to. Or is it suddenly your time and sub they are wasting and now people should conform to your standards?

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I think players should have the freedom to leave whenever they want given the game punishes them for doing so already. I don't think they should be able to do this over and over with no consequences at all - so there is a difference. If there was no deterrant to leaving at all, the problem would be way worse.

I'm not really picky how people play at all depending on context. I've had many new / low level healers play like my much-hated Cecily squadron mate - watching and doing nothing while waiting for HP levels to fall so they can cast a cure. I have even had those annoying "Blizzard 1 only" mages too. I thought it was a bot but they really thought Blizzard had the same potency as Fire - except they didn't have to watch their manabar lol.

I usually just do my job and move on if we can still clear the content. I only actually care if someone is being purposely disruptive to the party.

But I have probably more patience for others given I don't really think I'm that great a player myself - though would like to think I'm at least "good" (or...when tanking, 'Okay I guess').

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Originally Posted by Youkulm

People are still complaining about this?

Have to agree with Vahlnir. 30 minutes in penalty is enough. 30 minutes is longer in time than most instances take, meaning the punishment takes longer than it would have if they stayed in the dungeon/trial/insert random roulette.

Not to mention I've left and taken penalty for other reasons. It's never "I don't want to do this" which I'm sure is the case for a lot of people. Emergencies happen. Harassment happens. I shouldn't need to be held hostage because someone can't handle waiting for a new DPS or healer.

What would you rather? People just AFK in the instance? Because that is what will happen, it already happens in mentor roulette and we don't need the issues that plague mentor roulette oozing over to other duties. At the end of the day, you'll still have to wait for the party to fill when you kick them after waiting the 5 minute limit anyway. I would much rather leave when I have an emergency than just AFK and leave my party high and dry, then be locked out of the DF the rest of the day or some other asinine nonsense if I manage to play again that day.

Let's get back to OP though. If the primary problem is Castrum, no need to worry. It'll be gone and turned into a 4 man dungeon soon.

I know people have been leaving castrum in droves, because frankly it's awful and the rewards/effort aren't worthwhile compared to Praetorium. MSQ roulette has its own issues and the devs are looking into fixing it. Changes are coming soon. If you don't know about these check out the last PLL. Personally I'm excited to see what happens to Castrum and Praetorium. Also happy that Ultima is getting his own trial! So much good stuff.

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The issue in this case seems to be that it can pop from mentor roulette and mentors have a bad habit of leaving anything that takes over 20 minutes when doing that roulette. EX Trials, Alliance Raids, Endwalker Trials, MSQ Dungeons, all of those can take up to 30-40 minutes to complete and so when they show up the mentor usually just leaves to queue again. All of those have completion times potentially longer than the penalty for abandoning which is why they are abandoned. The key to fixing it is either scale the penalty on how many times you abandon in the last few days/weeks, or relative to the average completion time of a duty.

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Originally Posted by Sicno

Not seen a single dropout in alliance in months? Wow girl, go and buy a jumbo cactpot ticket right now.

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Nope, sorry. I'll admit I only run roulettes every other day, so maybe my chances of this happening are lower, but I've not had it happen except in castrum. Though I'm not sure who would drop out of LoA or ST ( Alliance roulette... which is it's own issue deserving of it's own thread. )

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

I am just curious if everyone who is all about "players should have the freedom to leave whenever they want it is their time" also champion the idea the players can play however they want since it is also their time and sub. For instance, who are you to say a healer has to do DPS in roulettes, it's their time and sub fee and if they don't want to DPS they shouldn't have to. Or is it suddenly your time and sub they are wasting and now people should conform to your standards?

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I'm pro not wasting anyone's time and that includes not doing stupid things like not wearing your job stone, refusing to play your job properly at max level ( you know cure 1 WHMs or Ice mages, that fun stuff ), or AFKing in duty. I also have no issue with the 30 minute penalty staying as it is. Bad apples will always ruin a decent system, no matter what they come up with unfortunately.

I stand that I see no issues with the system as it. I do feel bad for everyone complaining here, it sucks you're having such a bad time in DF. :(

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Originally Posted by Youkulm

Nope, sorry. I'll admit I only run roulettes every other day, so maybe my chances of this happening are lower, but I've not had it happen except in castrum. Though I'm not sure who would drop out of LoA or ST ( Alliance roulette... which is it's own issue deserving of it's own thread. )

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While we have threads about people removing gear so they get LoA or ST, last night I had 3 people leave our LoA raid roulette immediately. I think there are some people who are just totally over those runs lol. Even I sighed as I find LoA super boring, but at least there was a new player for a roulette bonus. I even died once as the tank since i picked up all the trash and neither healer (both of whom have every class at 90) would cast a heal - completely unexpected so I had to be even more bored by letting the other tanks do everything. Having no heals at all it was tempting to leave but it's so easy it wasn't necessary.

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Originally Posted by Youkulm

Nope, sorry. I'll admit I only run roulettes every other day, so maybe my chances of this happening are lower, but I've not had it happen except in castrum. Though I'm not sure who would drop out of LoA or ST ( Alliance roulette... which is it's own issue deserving of it's own thread. )

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Meanwhile pretty much all Ivalice and Nier raids I've been in had people leaving right away. I remember nearly half the alliance leaving one time.

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Originally Posted by Sicno

Meanwhile pretty much all Ivalice and Nier raids I've been in had people leaving right away. I remember nearly half the alliance leaving one time.

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I always get stuck in ST and LoA, once in a blue moon I see WoD. I miss the HW Raids. Those were nice...

What on Etheriys are you queuing for that you constantly have people leaving?
You aren't trying to do old extreme trials in the duty finder, are you?

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

I am just curious if everyone who is all about "players should have the freedom to leave whenever they want it is their time" also champion the idea the players can play however they want since it is also their time and sub. For instance, who are you to say a healer has to do DPS in roulettes, it's their time and sub fee and if they don't want to DPS they shouldn't have to. Or is it suddenly your time and sub they are wasting and now people should conform to your standards?

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I'd also like to know how many of these people join Frontlines and AFK or pretend to participate.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

I am just curious if everyone who is all about "players should have the freedom to leave whenever they want it is their time" also champion the idea the players can play however they want since it is also their time and sub. For instance, who are you to say a healer has to do DPS in roulettes, it's their time and sub fee and if they don't want to DPS they shouldn't have to. Or is it suddenly your time and sub they are wasting and now people should conform to your standards?

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Since when is freedom to abandon duty = freedom to do whatever anyways? Like tbh idc how people play, I'm not a stickler for rotations and whatever and as long as we get through, I'm fine. I just want some effort which I'm not going to see if they abandon straightaway anyways.

But people who straight AFK in frontline/prae, you're just legit contributing nothing LMAO you might as well just abandon. At least the people who abandon aren't there to take advantage of the efforts of others

I dunno guys. I'd rather those people bounce and we refill than stay and make the duty run miserable either by afking so we kick them anyway, making it go slower, or being toxic in other ways. The 30 minute penalty will deter the majority so those few who aren't deterred by it, I wouldn't want in my party anyway.

Also, I saw ideas about adding the penalty to anyone who leaves and not just the first or that leaving a roulette removes the reward for the day. I can give you an example where you would punish someone doing nothing wrong.

I queued into Temple of Fist in either 50+ or Leveling a couple weeks ago. Can't remember exactly which. I was dps and there was tank and another dps. They were both new. Healer had bounced almost immediately. We waited a bit and didn't get a healer. I said "brb on healer", left, swapped to healer, and rejoined them by direct queuing with JIP on. We got another dps in no time and we were on our way.

So I wouldn't have been able to come back at all because I would have gotten the 30 minute penalty even though we weren't full, and I would have lost my roulette bonus all from trying to help some new folks get through an instance. As it was, I didn't get a penalty, came back right away, and still go to run my dps roulette after we were done.

If this were an every-duty thing then we could make an argument for more deterrents. But my experience on Aether has been it's rare except for something like MSQ roulette and when someone does bounce, the party usually refills quickly so the effect is negligible. The instance I mentioned like my Temple of Fist experience is just once in a while. And we don't have to put up with someone who didn't want to be there being forced to stay there. I can't see any benefit to increasing the penalty that outweigh any negatives that come with it. Many of the replies on this thread don't seem like they want to solve a problem but just punish those who are doing something they dislike.

Frontline AFKers get kicked quite a bit on NA, a lot of regulars want to win, get kills and don't need free feeding fodder. The threat being there keeps people moving. It's also reportable too, so there is that. That's much worse than just getting kicked.

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Originally Posted by technole

Frontline AFKers get kicked quite a bit on NA, a lot of regulars want to win, get kills and don't need free feeding fodder. The threat being there keeps people moving. It's also reportable too, so there is that. That's much worse than just getting kicked.

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I guess we are in different Frontline matches then. Sure I get a few votes to pass, but there are a ton of enablers. Also, the people that like to hide in the crowd and you can't prove it until the end when you see they've done less than 10k damage.

At the end of the day people are just going to have to come to terms with the fact it doesn't matter how many rules & punishments you put into place to stop something, someone's personal time is always going to be worth more to them than yours or anyone else and the more draconian you become with your rules the more people simply leave or don't play. It's the exact same reason you can't tax people 70-100% of their income.
Also it's not my fault the penalty is 30 minutes and prae takes 50.

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Originally Posted by Sicno

Meanwhile pretty much all Ivalice and Nier raids I've been in had people leaving right away. I remember nearly half the alliance leaving one time.

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Makes sense when you got 2 whole alliances wiping to one mechanic and getting scrapped off the floor by a single whm.
Just yesterday if they hadn't nerfed big thunder daddy my group would've wiped 6 times.
Failed the 3 person stack, failed to separate the AoEs, failed to kill ice on time without echo there were a few other things I forgot about.

TIL "expecting people to complete the casual content they queue for" is "draconian".

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Originally Posted by Sicno

TIL "expecting people to complete the casual content they queue for" is "draconian".

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It's on a relative spectrum like everything else.

What you said is a strawman however as I was specifically talking about the rules trying to be implemented, not people completing content they queued for.

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

What you said is a strawman however as I was specifically talking about the rules trying to be implemented, not people completing content they queued for.

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I know, but I couldn't help but find it funny in this context. That punishment for leaving super casual content could be considered "draconian" is hilarous.

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

At the end of the day people are just going to have to come to terms with the fact it doesn't matter how many rules & punishments you put into place to stop something, someone's personal time is always going to be worth more to them than yours or anyone else and the more draconian you become with your rules the more people simply leave or don't play. It's the exact same reason you can't tax people 70-100% of their income.
Also it's not my fault the penalty is 30 minutes and prae takes 50.




Makes sense when you got 2 whole alliances wiping to one mechanic and getting scrapped off the floor by a single whm.
Just yesterday if they hadn't nerfed big thunder daddy my group would've wiped 6 times.
Failed the 3 person stack, failed to separate the AoEs, failed to kill ice on time without echo there were a few other things I forgot about.

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if you aren't willing to complete the content don't queue for it, it's that simple. If you kick people back to the queue or eat up time on the timer by making them wait for a replacement, then you should get a punishment at least equal to how long it would have taken to complete. You just wasted 7 other people's time by being inconsiderate so you get a punishment for it.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

If you kick people back to the queue or eat up time on the timer by making them wait for a replacement, then you should get a punishment at least equal to how long it would have taken to complete.

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You mean like a 30 minute time out?

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Originally Posted by Padudu

You mean like a 30 minute time out?

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You missed the second part. The 30 minute penalty is shorter than praetorium, alliance raids, and extreme trial completion times.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

You missed the second part. The 30 minute penalty is shorter than praetorium, alliance raids, and extreme trial completion times.

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No normal mode instance in this game should be taking over 30 minutes to complete in the first place. MSQ hour-long dungeons will be a thing of the past in 6.1 and as for alliance raids? The reward vs time investment just isn't worth it for the later raids. I will not stay in an Ivalice or NieR Raid that I know will cause problems for first-timers.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

You missed the second part. The 30 minute penalty is shorter than praetorium, alliance raids, and extreme trial completion times.

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With the exception of MSQ, which is going away anyways, 30 minutes is about the average time of most dungeons and alliance raids, especially WoD/CT, ect. The only raids I can see that may be a bit over is like, what, maybe Ivalice or Nier?

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Originally Posted by Padudu

With the exception of MSQ, which is going away anyways, 30 minutes is about the average time of most dungeons and alliance raids, especially WoD/CT, ect. The only raids I can see that may be a bit over is like, what, maybe Ivalice or Nier?

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I ran the 3rd Nier raid earlier for my roulette. I think it took about 40-45 minutes. There were some hectic moments that required immediate recovery, but there were never actually any wipes. Dps also seemed a bit low. Glad I chose to run that roulette as SMN today, that's for sure. lol I'd imagine it would go slightly faster if more people were performing optimally.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

I ran the 3rd Nier raid earlier for my roulette. I think that was about how long it took, maybe a bit longer. There were some hectic moments that required immediate recovery, but there were never actually any wipes. Dps also seemed a bit low. Glad I chose to run that roulette as SMN today, that's for sure. lol

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I've been running Ivalice like crazy for the glam this past week, also because I may be masochistic. I wanna say I don't think it took more than ~30mins for each run, maybe 35mins at most, that's WITH new people dying to mechanics and a wipe with one of them lol. Nier only feels like it takes longer cause them bosses be taaaankyyy

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Originally Posted by Padudu

With the exception of MSQ, which is going away anyways, 30 minutes is about the average time of most dungeons and alliance raids, especially WoD/CT, ect. The only raids I can see that may be a bit over is like, what, maybe Ivalice or Nier?

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From the last few months of recording my roulette runs, only labyrinth, syrcus tower, world of darkness, and void arc are under 30 minutes average time
I see people regularly abandon on dun scaith, ivalice, and nier.

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Originally Posted by Padudu

With the exception of MSQ, which is going away anyways, 30 minutes is about the average time of most dungeons and alliance raids, especially WoD/CT, ect. The only raids I can see that may be a bit over is like, what, maybe Ivalice or Nier?

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Not only did the live letter confirm that MSQ roulette is here to stay but basically guaranteed that the problem will just continue to get worse. At least new players will be able to have another way to run it when people now start fishing for ultima and insta leave castrum AND prae. Sure is a great possible first impression on new players though...

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Originally Posted by Mandudez

Not only did the live letter confirm that MSQ roulette is here to stay but basically guaranteed that the problem will just continue to get worse. At least new players will be able to have another way to run it when people now start fishing for ultima and insta leave castrum AND prae. Sure is a great possible first impression on new players though...

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It'll probably be the other way around. People currently leave Castrum because you can only run the roulette once a day and (if memory serves, haven't ran it in a long time) you get about a whole lvl if you get Prae. Ultima will probably give the least rewards so people may drop out of that now.

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Originally Posted by Sicno

It'll probably be the other way around. People currently leave Castrum because you can only run the roulette once a day and (if memory serves, haven't ran it in a long time) you get about a whole lvl if you get Prae. Ultima will probably give the least rewards so people may drop out of that now.

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People really undersell the AFK part of prae as to why they fish for it over castrum. I think a few more people prefer prae over castrum for the exp but the back end being a boss rush with minimal movement plays a big factor too. I can't imagine too many people opting to do a glorified leveling roulette with forced cutscene watching if the exp is no where near the same after it's updated.

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Originally Posted by Mandudez

Not only did the live letter confirm that MSQ roulette is here to stay but basically guaranteed that the problem will just continue to get worse. At least new players will be able to have another way to run it when people now start fishing for ultima and insta leave castrum AND prae. Sure is a great possible first impression on new players though...

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I actually don't think that'll be the case.

Ultima still has that very large cutscene in the middle between the two phases at 4mins 30s - this is on top of the fact depending on how they balance it, the fight might actually take longer than it does now as part of Praetorium. With initial cutscene of 2mins, transition cutscene of 4mins 30s and a conservative 2mins per phase (excluding the autoscrolling 30s or so of phase 1), I'd put new Ultima as being a roughly 10-13min instance.
I think you also severely underestimate how short Prae is, even with cutscenes leading up to Gaius. Half of Prae's runtime is from post-Gaius, meaning I'd be willing to put both Castrum & Prae at about 20-ish mins each. prae could be even shorter since they mentioned they're changing the dungeon a bit as well.

If all three have identical rewards, I doubt anyone would fish for Ultima since even if you can occupy that 30min penalty doing something and then score a 1/3 chance of getting Ultima (and not simply getting one of the other 2 instances again), you'd only be saving 8min-ish of actual instance time, a small amount of time that is basically a zero-issue for most people compared to the headache of having to deal and wait for lockout penalties and then gamble on a 1/3rd chance. This also disregards the fact that the time you save is even less, since if you get Prae or Castrum, you'd still have to watch the opening cinematic before you can leave, meaning you save even less time.

The extremely predominant reason Prae is fished for isn't because of total instance time - it's because of reward disparity due to the titanic amount of EXP it gives compared to castrum, making it far more enticing to eat a 30min penalty and then take the gamble for nearly 2-3x as much rewards. If anything, people might try to anti-fish Ultima if it gives severely less rewards than the other two do.

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Originally Posted by Padudu

. . .30 minutes is about the average time of most dungeons . . .

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What.

A 20-minute dungeon run is already unusually long.

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Originally Posted by Jennah

What.

A 20-minute dungeon run is already unusually long.

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Which is why I feel like the 30minute penalty is ok. :P Even with like abandoners in Ivalice/Nier I don't think it should run too hard over 30min

And I've been running... too much of Ivalice for the glam lately (I'm v unlucky when it comes to drops lol).. At least with the Monastery, haven't had problems with people abandoning as of late. Mostly Castrum

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Originally Posted by Kewitt

I agree they should all get a 1 week ban from the game....


On a side note maybe you need to goto one of the hot springs around the world. Maybe everyone leaves because you have bathed in a while.
I don't know I don't believe we have partied.

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The number of people that did get I was being facetious shocks me.
If I disban its because irl stuff came up. I've left queue and told my hubby to finish the run. If I'm leaving it would't matter the penalty something more important has come up.

I'm sorry but being able to instantly leave Thousand Maws and only suffer 30 minutes isn't so bad. That dungeon is the literal worst for me.

If they put in a penalty for just that wouldn't it be able to tell if they left willing or was booted out due to an error or DC to be fair.

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Originally Posted by WrenElessedil

Not gonna happen. It'd be nice to have a harsher punishment for those people, but it would also harshly punish the people who drop for legitimate reasons.

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Yup. Can barely run a simple expert roulette these days because healers refuse to heal. So I leave. Not burning ever mitigator and invuln on basic trash packs because "mah glare mage". Go find a new tank while I play something else.

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Originally Posted by RinaB

Not burning ever mitigator and invuln on basic trash packs because "mah glare mage".

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Trash packs are significantly more threatening in terms of damage output than the bosses, and you are expected to be heavily rotating mitigation during them. If you feel you're encountering people who "refuse to heal" frequently, it's much more likely that you are simply mitigating inappropriately.

You should be using mitigation on large pulls. Bosses do basically no damage outside of tank busters, you don't need to save anything for them.