Y'shtola is a Mary Sue.

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Originally Posted by Shironeko_Narunyan

Seriously, stop using words you don't understand. At least make an attempt to learn the definitions first. There's a difference between over the top stache twirling "buhahaha fightfightBLOOD" and a character like Y'shtola, who you see react differently in various situations.

If you want to break down any character to their most dominant trait, be my guest. But please don't then do it using established vocabulary in a wrong way.

"One note" does not mean what you think it does.

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You could stop being condescending first, but I guess that is too much to ask huh? One-note 'Unvarying, as in quality or character; monotonous: "a one-note, rude, sulky heroine" Y'shtola has basically remained the same throughout the game. Always handles crisis with the same calm grace. Always has the same sarcastic wit. Never shows emotional vulnerability. This literally has not changed, ever.

Some history and definitions of Mary Sue

All in all, I'd say that Y'shtola fits a lot of the criteria for being a Canon Jerk Sue. Her failings are written into FFXIV to make us like her more/worry about her, rather than to actually have her fail/suffer. She doesn't react to them because, "They were the best option at the time."

She's also heavily reliant upon the, "Born Lucky" and "Consequence Houdini" tropes.

Basically, rather than being an almighty Mary Sue like Rey Palpatine, she's merely got unassailable intellect. Her vulnerability in combat stems solely from the necessity of making the player character the strongest thing in the plot. If not for us, she likely would be.

And be that as it may, I see many citing her failures starting with Flow... but no one citing her gains from said venture.

Mark Heavensward circa Level 58~59. The instanced battle against the Illuminati. Y'shtola charges and fires her way cooler Forbidden Holy type spell and deletes a legion of Illuminati Goblins and their super tank. Despite not feeling well enough to even stand just a few days prior. When questioned how she could do such a thing in quests following this display, "When I was in the Lifestream I wasn't merely floating along. Every second was a life or death struggle that threatened to claim my very being. Through such a trial I gained knowledge and power unknown to many."

I'm paraphrasing, going off memory, but that is fact. Her first "failure" gave her a major power boost, along with the ability to see aether unaided.

Losing to Zenos was for worry points, no lasting consequence other than freeing up screen time for Lyse. Sorta meta since she lost protecting Lyse, too.

Second dip in Lifestream... Could of been on purpose to try and see how the First's Lifestream was different/get forbidden secret magicks only known to the First...

Endwalker? She just gave the idea of it being a death the middle finger and sauntered into that black whirlwind all but stopping to take a massive dump on the narrative's sense of danger.

Catgirl Awooga, indeed.

I ran a poll once asking if people thought they would ever kill her if the plot dictated it. After like 150 answers on the poll or whatever, 2/3rds of people concluded they would if the story demanded it. I'm glad people saw it that way, from those who answered the poll, but I now wholeheartedly believe the story will never demand it.

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Endwalker? She just gave the idea of it being a death the middle finger and sauntered into that black whirlwind all but stopping to take a massive dump on the narrative's sense of danger.

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It's the Dynamis. /s :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

You could stop being condescending first, but I guess that is too much to ask huh? One-note 'Unvarying, as in quality or character; monotonous: "a one-note, rude, sulky heroine" Y'shtola has basically remained the same throughout the game. Always handles crisis with the same calm grace. Always has the same sarcastic wit. Never shows emotional vulnerability. This literally has not changed, ever.

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One-note as character trope is a different thing. Zenos is one such character, and that's fine in his case, but that's not what Y'shtola is.

As for your "stop being condescending"... I hate it when people try to use "adult words", then sound uneducated.
I don't thing YOU are an idiot, but your usage of words makes your whole argument fall apart.

You could have complained about her being flat or boring or lacking development, and we could have a talk about it and why the writers chose to go with "iconic" etc, but alas.

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Originally Posted by Shironeko_Narunyan

One-note as character trope is a different thing. Zenos is one such character, and that's fine in his case, but that's not what Y'shtola is.

As for your "stop being condescending"... I hate it when people try to use "adult words", then sound uneducated.
I don't thing YOU are an idiot, but your usage of words makes your whole argument fall apart.

You could have complained about her being flat or boring or lacking development, and we could have a talk about it and why the writers chose to go with "iconic" etc, but alas.

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Even after I looked it up, twice, it's still the same thing I thought it was before even looking it up. 'Characters end up devolving into their primary characteristics rather than being fully layered.' I guess where we disagree is the fact I think that Y'shtola is mainly always portrayed to be so intelligent, witty, and calm. I've never seen her react in varied ways to anything, it's always the same. It is always the same characteristic that defines her behavior. Whether she is interacting with Runar, Matoya, or a complete stranger, she acts the same. Whether it's a boring afternoon or the universe is falling around her, she acts the same. Always cool, calm, and collected. I've never seen differently. I've never seen these other layers of her supposed multi-faceted character. Her primary interest is in seeking knowledge to increase her intelligence even more. Apparently you do think she has other layers to her, and that's fine I guess. I won't tell you to stop using certain words as if I know better than you.

Zenos: BLOOD, BLOOD, BLOOD
Y'shtola: KNOWLEDGE, KNOWLEDGE, KNOWLEDGE

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

Even after I looked it up, twice, it's still the same thing I thought it was before even looking it up. 'Characters end up devolving into their primary characteristics rather than being fully layered.' I guess where we disagree is the fact I think that Y'shtola is mainly always portrayed to be so intelligent, witty, and calm. I've never seen her react in varied ways to anything, it's always the same. It is always the same characteristic that defines her behavior. Whether she is interacting with Runar, Matoya, or a complete stranger, she acts the same. Whether it's a boring afternoon or the universe is falling around her, she acts the same. Always cool, calm, and collected. I've never seen differently. I've never seen these other layers of her supposed multi-faceted character. Her primary interest is in seeking knowledge to increase her intelligence even more. Apparently you do think she has other layers to her, and that's fine I guess. I won't tell you to stop using certain words as if I know better than you.

Zenos: BLOOD, BLOOD, BLOOD
Y'shtola: KNOWLEDGE, KNOWLEDGE, KNOWLEDGE

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You've sufficiently proven to be reason-resistant.

I'm done here. Have a nice day.

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Originally Posted by Shironeko_Narunyan

You've sufficiently proven to be reason-resistant.

I'm done here. Have a nice day.

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Translation: You don't agree with me so I'm done.

Fine by me.

Wonder if some of the people here go also frequently into an art gallery and tell the artists that they would like their artworks but in a different color and please use a different frame and a finer brush would do the trick!

Fact is art lies in the eye of the beholder. You might dislike art (and yes writing also counts as a form of art) and you might like art but telling the artist to do something different is extremely rude and uncalled for and many people here should try to finally and really get that into their brains.

Just cause you don't like it doesn't mean there aren't people who like it and it has to be changed. The artist (in this case writer/s) have a vision in their head and it's not your place to say that this is wrong, you may say you don't like it that way. But stuff like "flawed writing" etc. is really uncalled for.

And no it's not that i am a XIV fanboy who would defend everything to the last bit just cause i venerate the game over everything, i also don't like some pieces of the story. I feel like for example the transition from Yda to Lyse was rushed and really weird. But that is something i don't like, others might like Lyse as she is now and that is alright. I don't flame the writers for it and neither am i telling them that they don't have the guts or something to just kill Yda or stuff like that. It's just rude, this story isn't yours and if you don't enjoy it that is not the fault of the writers, it's just your personal taste.

tl:dr: Just cause you don't like apples doesn't mean you have to tell the farmer to eradicate all appletrees and plant instead peaches. If you don't like apples, go somewhere they sell peaches. That easy.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

Have we ever seen her show anything besides stoicism or sarcastic wit?

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yah. we've seen her be happy, we've seen her be flustered, perplexed, worried-but I get what you're saying here. and I agree. Oh, I agree wholeheartedly.
What we're missing is moeYOSHIDAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA CAN YOU MAKE YSHTOLA GO NYAAAAAN??????? The story will continue to make absolutely no sense until she does. She's way too arrogant, way too sure of herself...not realistic. She needs to be moe. Confidence OUT, falling and dropping her books IN. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Ranaku

Artists are beyond critique

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Unfortunately, it's not like comparing apples to peaches. As far as writing and art go, there are certain characteristics inherent in them that make them better.

In traditional art, say painting, things like color choice/blending/perspective etc. all have methods for improvement. Not all artists create what they intend to create. They try their best to paint what's in their mind's eye, and often times they fail. Have you never met a dissatisfied artist who was seeking to improve their methods?

When people make these critiques they are citing a flaw they perceive. Nothing more, nothing less.

There are people who play this game who are better writers than those writing for it. There are also many more people playing this game who have experienced stories with far better writing and characters.

We pay them money to continue writing it, and to continue letting us play it, so it is as much ours as it is theirs. It's basically a group commission. Without us, they will stop making it. Stop writing it. We are always free to voice our opinions of it, in an effort to have art closer to what got us in on it in the first place.

Surely you've noticed that if they hear enough people asking them to plant peaches, then they will plant peaches.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

We pay them money to continue writing it, and to continue letting us play it, so it is as much ours as it is theirs. It's basically a group commission. Without us, they will stop making it. Stop writing it. We are always free to voice our opinions of it, in an effort to have art closer to what got us in on it in the first place.

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While I agree with our freedom to voice our opinions, I don't agree that it makes it a group commission as we didn't commission anything. They made a product and advertised it to us. Giving our feedback on their product doesn't make it ours.

Besides, the idea of a group commission presumes the group wants the same thing in order to commission that thing in the first place, and it's clear this community is divided on many things.

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Surely you've noticed that if they hear enough people asking them to plant peaches, then they will plant peaches.

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If that is true, then I guess there is not enough healers complaining about the role.

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Originally Posted by linayar

While I agree with our freedom to voice our opinions, I don't agree that it makes it a group commission as we didn't commission anything. They made a product and advertised it to us. Giving our feedback on their product doesn't make it ours.

Besides, the idea of a group commission presumes the group wants the same thing in order to commission that thing in the first place, and it's clear this community is divided on many things.

If that is true, then I guess there is not enough healers complaining about the role.

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Mmm. Wrong. They made a product, and it failed. They then apologized to us and improved it according to what would be more popular. Folks dedicated to what they loved allowed for them to make what we have now by continuing to invest in their commission, even though there was no promise that it would remain the same.

As divided as the playerbase is, it is due to its sheer burgeoning size. The less niche a game becomes, the more opinions on it you will see.

You've simply described another type of tree. I'm more referring to story choices ala stuff like Emet-selch's popularity changing their mind on how to go about with the narrative after SHB.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Mmm. Wrong. They made a product, and it failed. They then apologized to us and improved it according to what would be more popular. Folks dedicated to what they loved allowed for them to make what we have now by continuing to invest in their commission, even though there was no promise that it would remain the same.

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Exactly, there is no promise that it would remain the same because it is ultimately their game and their vision. Improved according to what would be more popular is not necessarily the same as improved according to those who paid for the product, especially for a failed game who wants to attract a bigger player base.

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As divided as the playerbase is, it is due to its sheer burgeoning size. The less niche a game becomes, the more opinions on it you will see.

You've simply described another type of tree. I'm more referring to story choices ala stuff like Emet-selch's popularity changing their mind on how to go about with the narrative after SHB.

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It's all the same tree, just different branches. The point is that they have the final say on when and where and to what extent to listen to the feedback given, especially when there are conflicting feedbacks.

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Originally Posted by linayar

Exactly, there is no promise that it would remain the same because it is ultimately their game and their vision. Improved according to what would be more popular is not necessarily the same as improved according to those who paid for the product, especially for a failed game who wants to attract a bigger player base.

It's all the same tree, just different branches. The point is that they have the final say on when and where and to what extent to listen to the feedback given, especially when there are conflicting feedbacks.

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Yeah. But you see, they kept the game going at the behest of those who insisted they had faith that they could make it into a good product. It was the vision of the original playerbase of this game that it was flawed but great and could be made greater, and it was by their graces. The company listened to them. Then new voices came, and the company seeks to listen to everyone as much as they possibly can.

We asked for Male Viera. They gave it to us. We've asked for a lot of things, and they've given them to us. It takes time for seeds to grow. They don't plant every seed, and do have a great control over what they plant, but we ultimately fund the farm.

The challenge becomes... there are a lot of people who just want to fund the farm because they like everything about it, regardless of what gets planted. No matter how strong or good some petitions get or some voices are, they don't make headway unless they are legion. I will admit the playerbase has stopped bringing quality to the game, now that it is a country, more or less.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Yeah. But you see, they kept the game going at the behest of those who insisted they had faith that they could make it into a good product. It was the vision of the original playerbase of this game that it was flawed but great and could be made greater, and it was by their graces. The company listened to them. Then new voices came, and the company seeks to listen to everyone as much as they possibly can.

We asked for Male Viera. They gave it to us. We've asked for a lot of things, and they've given them to us. It takes time for seeds to grow. They don't plant every seed, and do have a great control over what they plant, but we ultimately fund the farm.

The challenge becomes... there are a lot of people who just want to fund the farm because they like everything about it, regardless of what gets planted. No matter how strong or good some petitions get or some voices are, they don't make headway unless they are legion. I will admit the playerbase has stopped bringing quality to the game, now that it is a country, more or less.

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I think it's a bit more complicated than that. If it's about the funding, then telling players who have a lot of complaints about the game to stop funding the game would be a non-controversial suggestion, but instead, that kind of answer is met with accusations of gatekeeping.

That's why, for me, knowing that they have their own vision of what kind of product they want to make is just as important as knowing that they are willing to accommodate people's feedback without throwing away their entire vision. So even if they don't respond favorably to every feedback (even my own), I can still agree with their overall vision for the product and be able to enjoy at least parts of it and safely ignore the parts I don't enjoy.

That doesn't really happen if I think their product is simply the result of a "group commission" where I don't even feel like I'm part of the group that is supposedly commissioning this product.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

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Yeah no, art is beyond criticism as far as the "i don't like it" goes.

As i said, some people might like a mary sue character, is that now wrong? What makes your standard the superior one? What makes your opinion the only true opinion? Exactly, what is good for you might be bad for others. What you hate others might like. There is no universal good or bad especially in art.

Not to mention that there is a difference in storytelling in different cultures. Is the common japanese way now worse than your western ways?

And no, you don't pay them money to continue writing it. You pay them money to gain access to the content. That is all. They can tell you tomorrow that the art gallery is closed and you get a refund for your season ticket and that is that.

And as i said before, saying what you dislike is all good and dandy. But there is a difference between saying "i don't like XYZ" and "the writing is flawed". One is your opinion the other one is a arrogant comment on a topic that is highly subjective. To make a claim of objectivity, which "the writing is flawed" is, is arrogant beyond measure. Cause you put your own opinion of "i don't like it" over all other opinions and act like your opinion is the only truth here.

So what i am saying is, don't be rude in your criticism and state your opinion and don't make your opinion into an universal fact. Cause as i said, some people might enjoy it, some might not.

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Originally Posted by Ranaku

Yeah no, art is beyond criticism as far as the "i don't like it" goes.

As i said, some people might like a mary sue character, is that now wrong? What makes your standard the superior one? What makes your opinion the only true opinion? Exactly, what is good for you might be bad for others. What you hate others might like. There is no universal good or bad especially in art.

Not to mention that there is a difference in storytelling in different cultures. Is the common japanese way now worse than your western ways?

And no, you don't pay them money to continue writing it. You pay them money to gain access to the content. That is all. They can tell you tomorrow that the art gallery is closed and you get a refund for your season ticket and that is that.

And as i said before, saying what you dislike is all good and dandy. But there is a difference between saying "i don't like XYZ" and "the writing is flawed". One is your opinion the other one is a arrogant comment on a topic that is highly subjective. To make a claim of objectivity, which "the writing is flawed" is, is arrogant beyond measure. Cause you put your own opinion of "i don't like it" over all other opinions and act like your opinion is the only truth here.

So what i am saying is, don't be rude in your criticism and state your opinion and don't make your opinion into an universal fact. Cause as i said, some people might enjoy it, some might not.

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So you think it's good writing when a character is the same, 10 years later, as they were when they were introduced? People don't say that about Zenos and he was in the plot for far less time, yet are willing to give Y'shtola a pass, why? Because catgirl hot awooga?

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

So you think it's good writing when a character is the same, 10 years later, as they were when they were introduced? People don't say that about Zenos and he was in the plot for far less time, yet are willing to give Y'shtola a pass, why? Because catgirl hot awooga?

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Y'shtola has changed. Zenos is a putz

He's that pervy stalker you tolerate because he has a car when you need to get somewhere.

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Originally Posted by MsQi

Y'shtola has changed. Zenos is a putz

He's that pervy stalker you tolerate because he has a car when you need to get somewhere.

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Can you tell me how Y'shtola has changed not physically, but mentally or emotionally since her introduction into the game?

Way to forget about the rest of the previous Scions.

Poor Minfilla, Papy, and Lyse are betrayed yet again by the community.

Also, replay Stormblood. Y'shtola shows more emotions there such as her desperation to save Lyse and realizing that Zenos is far beyond even the WoL early on.

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Originally Posted by WhiteWitch

It’s kinda funny that people have this mindset about her . There’s a lot of nicer looking characters, (imo Lyse)
I mean, if you like a white hair butch looking woman , okay I guess LMAO

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You need to look up what a butch woman is T.T

yes Stormblood Yshtola
where shes knocked out by Zenos,say the little sun line and gets knocked out again till ShB

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

Way to forget about the rest of the previous Scions.

Poor Minfilla, Papy, and Lyse are betrayed yet again by the community.

Also, replay Stormblood. Y'shtola shows more emotions there such as her desperation to save Lyse and realizing that Zenos is far beyond even the WoL early on.

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She's not heartless. As commendable as it is that she values the lives of her friends over her own, it doesn't exactly open the floodgates. Y'shtola's stoicism is a good contrast to Alisaie, who allows herself to be overwhelmed by her own emotions. It's been pretty consistent throughout the expansions, which is probably why some feel she has had very little character growth.

It could be an ace that the dev just hasn't used yet. At this point, if something happened that was so joyous that Y'shtola had to excuse herself because she knows she's going to break down in tears and the viewer gets to witness it; the impact of that cutscene would be something else. Thing is, if the conclusion of EW couldn't do that, then I don't know what will. Even just a tear, that would have expressed a profound relief that the WoL survived their injuries. That was the perfect opportunity for the writers to use said ace card.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

Can you tell me how Y'shtola has changed not physically, but mentally or emotionally since her introduction into the game?

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More mature, more assertive. Earlier she was like a youngster pretending to be a big girl. After some experience her words and actions carry some weight. There's not as much difference as Alisaie but Shtola was a little further along when we meet her.

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Originally Posted by MsQi

More mature, more assertive. Earlier she was like a youngster pretending to be a big girl. After some experience her words and actions carry some weight. There's not as much difference as Alisaie but Shtola was a little further along when we meet her.

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Assertive as opposed to what? When was she ever... not assertive? Mature? She rejected a certain Au'ra's advances in the most savage way possible(The Burn Savage). A more mature lady would have rejected him in a more compassionate manner, even if he did deserve to be knocked down a peg.

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

Way to forget about the rest of the previous Scions.

Poor Minfilla, Papy, and Lyse are betrayed yet again by the community.

Also, replay Stormblood. Y'shtola shows more emotions there such as her desperation to save Lyse and realizing that Zenos is far beyond even the WoL early on.

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Lyse had a whole expansion devoted to her. She's a polarizing character that people either like or dislike. She's like the complete opposite of Y'shtola. She's impulsive, emotional, and has been shown to make mistakes frequently.
Unfortunately, Papy was kind of thrown away for Lyse's development. Minfilia was a pretty boring character as well who I feel emotionally and mentally remained the same throughout, but I don't have to deal with her anymore.
Lyse, Papy, and Minfilia are either largely out of the story or out altogether.

Y'shtola has shown the barest hint of having emotions and only in the most extreme situations. Sorry but I don't consider 'Lyse, Run!' or 'Such infernal strength!' some kind of emotional epiphany.

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Originally Posted by Duskane

yes Stormblood Yshtola
where shes knocked out by Zenos,say the little sun line and gets knocked out again till ShB

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bruh pls im dead lmaoo
just like Y'shtola every expansion

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Originally Posted by Duskane

yes Stormblood Yshtola
where shes knocked out by Zenos,say the little sun line and gets knocked out again till ShB

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That's some real character development right there!

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

She rejected a certain Au'ra's advances in the most savage way possible(The Burn Savage). A more mature lady would have rejected him in a more compassionate manner, even if he did deserve to be knocked down a peg.

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If a writer is going to play into a character's arrogance and entitlement, they need to pay that off in kind. She was more than compassionate. That was also two expansions ago.

You leave my sassy cat witch alone.

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Originally Posted by TMW001

You leave my sassy cat witch alone.

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They’re just jealous of Yshtola’s milkshake, since it’s better than theirs.

Y'shtola is supremely boring.

I know I have a long way still to go and I feel a bit bad for resurrecting this thread but Y'shtola is the embodiment of average and zealousy of anime community, and it's painful. I mean she is ok, but nothing special even in terms of design (take a way that and she would be sidelined, along with some other unremarkable characters. Even Magitek Armor you encounter in MSQ has more interesting stuff going on - alas it is brief.

And the way she is represented from the early story arch and onwards is nothing to boast about. I bet she shapes further down the storyline (spoiled myself here and there and can't stop with eye's rolling at few things regarding her, so cliche ) but even in the early stages up to story build-up before HS (*2.0+), I see other characters around her shaping and maturing at a much more notable pace. (and she is plain as any of them in the AAR arc)

I mean, she's blind but still can read books... to me she's being written in awful way and I don't like her as a character overall. I always hoped that they would get rid of her but she has too many simps all around and she drives some plots so.

Sadly she's the only relevant female miqo'te character in the entire game.

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Originally Posted by YukikoKurosawa

Sadly she's the only relevant female miqo'te character in the entire game.

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Well yes if you never played summoner, you did not meet her sister who is much more likeable...

To me they don't want to explain anything more about Yshtole cause they are afraid that it would lose some of her fans and she has a lot of simps in the JP and other servers.

The moment you start to give her more depths you will lose some of these people.

If I ask anyone to define what you think as her personality is. Literal everyone would give a different answer. (It is also depending if yous tarted in Limsa or Gridania or Uldah, cause In Limsa she is the Scion that introduces you to the team.)

She is just kept the way she is cause the people can fantasize better about her this way.

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Originally Posted by Shuuli

Well yes if you never played summoner, you did not meet her sister who is much more likeable...

To me they don't want to explain anything more about Yshtole cause they are afraid that it would lose some of her fans and she has a lot of simps in the JP and other servers.

The moment you start to give her more depths you will lose some of these people.

If I ask anyone to define what you think as her personality is. Literal everyone would give a different answer. (It is also depending if yous tarted in Limsa or Gridania or Uldah, cause In Limsa she is the Scion that introduces you to the team.)

She is just kept the way she is cause the people can fantasize better about her this way.

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I love the strong silent type and yes I dream about her because she is so strong it makes me weak in the knees

The entire story is a big Mary Sue, dude. What do you think would have happened if that airship has not crashed into the shield generator in the castrum? Or if the Garleans had put the generator inside the shield.

I'm surprised I missed this thread. At least I think I did.

Like quite a few others, I am indifferent to Y'shtola. I wouldn't call her a Mary-Sue, and that term seems to get away from people to simply just describe a character they don't like. Y'shtola is full of weaknesses, but a flaw with her character is that she perceives those weaknesses as nothing more than inconveniences. As such, she doesn't actually take them to heart to learn from them, which has stunted her growth as a character. That is basically why Y'shtola now isn't much different from ARR Y'shtola.

In my own character's lore, Y'shtola is the Scion she connects with the least emotionally. Kind of a given considering how Y'shtola is, but they actually butt heads from time to time. Their relationship is very much like sisters who are as alike as they are different, but still love and care for each other greatly. Both my character and Y'shtola are very icy, and I would like to think that Menphina and Halone have a similar relationship with each other.

She could have had great development with her blindness and learning to deal with it while trying to minimize her use of seeing the aether around her, but they kinda just ignored that seeing the aether reduces her lifespan and use it at every possible moment. I don't necessarily think she is a Mary Sue, but I think she is the most boring main character in the game, which is saying something since I think all the Scions are pretty boring now.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

The best remedy for an annoying waifu, is to design a better one.

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If only they'd put more work into Lyse. If only.