What’s the point of Physick for Summoner?

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Originally Posted by MellowMink

There’s honestly no good reason for there to be an inconsistency between the utility of healing options with summoner versus red mage. In this particular case, either Physick should be updated to scale off the correct stat to be consistent with Red Mage, or healing spells be removed from both DPS jobs.

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Why do we need to have a supposed "consistency" between Red Mage and Summoner in the first place? It's clear that Physick is only there on SMN because it's just a remnant of Arcanist and removing it would probably affect SCH. If they really planned to give any form of healing spell for SMN they would have done it ages ago. To be fair, we have Phoenix already to provide healing. If both healer are dead, tanks already have it in their kits means of temporary protection till the healers get raised somehow.
Also, there's absolutely no reason for SMN to have a healing skill just because RDM has one. They don't need to have (and I'm glad they don't have) the exactly same kind of support kit. Let the job have their unique features and move on.

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Originally Posted by Dahlinea

Why do we need to have a supposed "consistency" between Red Mage and Summoner in the first place? It's clear that Physick is only there on SMN because it's just a remnant of Arcanist and removing it would probably affect SCH. If they really planned to give any form of healing spell for SMN they would have done it ages ago. To be fair, we have Phoenix already to provide healing. If both healer are dead, tanks already have it in their kits means of temporary protection till the healers get raised somehow.
Also, there's absolutely no reason for SMN to have a healing skill just because RDM has one. They don't need to have (and I'm glad they don't have) the exactly same kind of support kit. Let the job have their unique features and move on.

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It would not affect SCH, their Physicks are different spells with different IDs, just check Garlandtools to see that out. Fixing ACN/SMN version would not interfere with the SCH one.

SMN wouldn't have a healing skill just because of RDM having one... It would have because Physick was there even before Vercure was a thing. Also this kind of similarity is meaningless when nearly all jobs have healing skills in Second Wind, Bloodbath, Curing Waltz, etc.

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Originally Posted by MellowMink

“Why are people so obsessed with wanting to heal or do damage as a tank? Shouldn’t you be focused on, I don’t know, gaining maximum amounts of enmity with ranged attacks?”

It’s nice to have variety and be flexible sometimes. What about situations where both healers are dead and someone wants to stop the only tank from immediately dying while another person tries to raise them, or is raising also bad for summoners and red mages since that’s typically done by healers? Encounters don’t always go just as planned.

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Tanks that DPS speed up clear times. Healers that DPS speeds up clear times. A DPS that heals slows down clear times.

Tanks DPS regardless if it's to hold enmity or not, it's just going to happen. A tank that restores their HP means longer survivability and allows Healer more time to do things, like DPS or whatever; different argument.

If both healers are dead, you healing isn't going to do jack. If all the SMN or RDM could do was cast Heal, it would be faster to just wipe and try again. Also Caster raising is a whole other debate and a completely different thread.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

SMN wouldn't have a healing skill just because of RDM having one... It would have because Physick was there even before Vercure was a thing. Also this kind of similarity is meaningless when nearly all jobs have healing skills in Second Wind, Bloodbath, Curing Waltz, etc.

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Don't confuse personal healing to party healing. Second Wind, Bloodbath, etc. are instant ability that don't slow down DPS and allow Healers to focus on other things. SMN has a instant heal ability in Phoenix, but casting Physick would cut into important DPS time.

I remain unconvinced, Caster DPS should focus on dealing damage.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

SMN wouldn't have a healing skill just because of RDM having one... It would have because Physick was there even before Vercure was a thing.

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Thank you; you’re totally right.

Also, the action isn’t necessarily still needed solely because it’s also part of the Arcanist class; some actions are removed from Scholar compared to Arcanist upon it first being unlocked, so there’s no reason the same couldn’t also apply for Summoner. That said, I would rather the action be based off the correct stat like how Vercure already does.

Tbh even if it's a remnant of the old days I kinda like that it's still around.
It always kinda bothered me in WoW too how a lot of skills were removed in expansions, I remember losing Fel Flame on Warlock and being sad about it.
I like keeping some of these skills around instead of removing them just kinda as memberberries and for the rly niche situations.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

I like keeping some of these skills around instead of removing them just kinda as memberberries and for the rly niche situations.

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I legitimately can’t think of any niche situations where Summoner’s healing spell has any helpful use case except for maybe the earliest possible dungeon instances, and that’s it.

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Originally Posted by MellowMink

I legitimately can’t think of any niche situations where Summoner’s healing spell has any helpful use case except for maybe the earliest possible dungeon instances, and that’s it.

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Yep, I still like having some stuff around still tho.
I think it gets a bit more iffy when it's stuff that could actually be a legit part of your rotation tho.
But even then I kinda wish that we had like an alternate tab or something with old skills with maybe a set low potency ( 0 for ogcd's or just 0 all-around ).
It's just cool to see them sometimes, I think back to some old NIN and DRK skills in particular and get a bit sad sometimes that a lot of their skills that were really cool have just been lost altogether.

DRK in Heavensward had really cool stuff that is just gone.

You thought fishing for Freecure was bad, Physick has become a trap spell for new (and some not so new) players. Maybe they just picked up the job after a long time or boosted it, but they be trying to self-sustain in older trials/raids. They lose half their health and boom, out come the Physicks. It's a misleading spell that loses any real usefulness very early on.

I remember one time a healer was struggling in an HW dungeon and the SMN DPS was there just spamming Physick. I told them it wasn't really their job, though they responded they were trying to be a team player. I get the gesture but the amount of damage lost is not worth casting a single Physick, it's quicker to just focus/kill the enemies.

Maybe a reworked Erase could make a comeback as a Summoner exclusive ability? It already has great healing with Phoenix/Rekindle.

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Originally Posted by Conchoidal

Maybe a reworked Erase could make a comeback as a Summoner exclusive ability? It already has great healing with Phoenix/Rekindle.

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Just a shame that you have to wait for a good while before you can even use it (as in, reaching that part of your rotation).

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Originally Posted by Exodus-E

Just a shame that you have to wait for a good while before you can even use it (as in, reaching that part of your rotation).

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I don't think that's necessarily an issue, but it's an issue that you can only use it during that window.
I think summoning Phoenix could perhaps give you a stack of Rekindle that you could use without Phoenix summoned, having a heal tied to a small and rarely occuring part of your rotation is a bit strange tho ( rarely in the sense it makes up for one portion of the big loop ).

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

I don't think that's necessarily an issue, but it's an issue that you can only use it during that window.
I think summoning Phoenix could perhaps give you a stack of Rekindle that you could use without Phoenix summoned, having a heal tied to a small and rarely occuring part of your rotation is a bit strange tho ( rarely in the sense it makes up for one portion of the big loop ).

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That could work, yeah.
But then, it'd have to be separated from Astral Flow, given that you'd (potentially) lose it if you used any other summon afterwards.
Maybe if it (temporarily) replaced Physick while you had said stack, instead?

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Originally Posted by Exodus-E

That could work, yeah.
But then, it'd have to be separated from Astral Flow, given that you'd (potentially) lose it if you used any other summon afterwards.
Maybe if it (temporarily) replaced Physick while you had said stack, instead?

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Yes your suggestion would actually make Physicks presence a little bit less weird imo.
I mean Physick would still be pretty useless xD.
But I still like the idea of Physick turning into Rekindle after you've summoned Phoenix.

Just on a thematic level it's like your healing magic gets empowered by Phoenix.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

I remain unconvinced, Caster DPS should focus on dealing damage.

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I don't mean that people should actively use Physick to "help with healing", much like RDMs never Vercure, or Paladins never Clemency under that same scope. These spells are very situational actions that have niche uses - that doesn't mean they're useless.

It's not like asking to design a completely new spell. Physick is already there, it just needs a stat adjustment to fall under this niche category usabiity, because as it is it's literally useless in any kind of situation, let it be soloing or helping with a struggling 4-man group while the healer gets back on their feet.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

I don't mean that people should actively use Physick to "help with healing", much like RDMs never Vercure, or Paladins never Clemency under that same scope. These spells are very situational actions that have niche uses - that doesn't mean they're useless.

It's not like asking to design a completely new spell. Physick is already there, it just needs a stat adjustment to fall under this niche category usabiity, because as it is it's literally useless in any kind of situation, let it be soloing or helping with a struggling 4-man group while the healer gets back on their feet.

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Literally all that needs to happen is Physick be based off Intelligence, not Mind; they may not even have to change the potency much to match Red Mage, but if they did, it wouldn’t be that dramatic of a change since Summoner’s potency is 400 while Red Mage’s is pretty close at 350.

I would pay to see this brought up in an official interview sometime; no content creators I know ever seem to bring Physick up for Summoner.

Has the director ever actually specified why the heal spells for Summoner versus Red Mage are based off different stats? I’m still weirded out by Physick being on his job layout while he was demoing the newer Summoner before Endwalker’s release if it’s not intended to ever be used outside of maybe the first dungeon instance and almost nothing else. I wonder what it would take for this to at least be addressed during a live letter.

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Originally Posted by MellowMink

Has the director ever actually specified why the heal spells for Summoner versus Red Mage are based off different stats? I’m still weirded out by Physick being on his job layout while he was demoing the newer Summoner before Endwalker’s release if it’s not intended to ever be used outside of maybe the first dungeon instance and almost nothing else. I wonder what it would take for this to at least be addressed during a live letter.

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Because SMN and SCH used to share all their class abilities, which made it an absolute nightmare to balance (you can't touch one without touching the other). In Stormblood this became a moot point because Scholar got their own exclusive version of Arcanist abilities. Literally the only thing SCH inherits from ACN anymore is the raise. Everything else is SCH exclusive, including basic Ruin and Physick.

And yet they never bothered to fix the ACN, and thus SMN, version of the spell to be useful for more than 20 minutes of your total playtime. People have asked, frequently, but the question is always dodged in official QnA's and content creators don't care about about a literal joke button to waste one of their questions with YoshiP over.

all i will say is it would be nice to give physick a decent boost to healing because i use the job from time to time to get nutty sacks from hunts.

To be honest, I don't think keeping the physick on the summoner is a solution, since this spell exists it's particularly useless after the first 20 levels.

And despite all the requests that the community made about this spell, they never adapted it, despite the loss of dps that this generates when used in a battle, I think that to have kept the physick despite the summoner rework is a terrible mistake by the developers, and I'm not sure that adding more healing to the summoner in the future is a convincing solution for fix it.

I really love the idea of Phoenix giving you a buff that makes your next Physick do decent healing. I'd also love to be able to choose between Phoenix and Bahamut at the beginning of a fight, but I'm not sure how well that would work if one was clearly superior to have up during your two minute bursts.

Well you see the reason why it's here is simple. Arcanist, Yep. They will never remove it until smn and sch finally be seperated.

I believe the last time this was ever brought up by the devs in a PLL asking the same question. This was the response; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KG5YxbKmbLI

NOW. This was back in Stormblood, and we can easily see what he's said concerning roles and balancing may create carbon copies, and what we see today in adjustments.

I'm not sure if he's gone on record to reiterate on this, but I think this is set as precedent that while Physick remains on SMN like a meme. They don't want to touch it.

And the thing to consider is Physick is an Arcanist spell that can't be ditched. When we sync down, both as SMN and SCH to < 30 lvl content, we retain the Arcanist Physick spell. SCH needs Physick to heal lower content. I can only see a future rework of SCH that takes it off Arcanist for good and becomes an individual job that starts at 30.

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Originally Posted by Kulve

I believe the last time this was ever brought up by the devs in a PLL asking the same question. This was the response; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KG5YxbKmbLI

NOW. This was back in Stormblood, and we can easily see what he's said concerning roles and balancing may create carbon copies, and what we see today in adjustments.

I'm not sure if he's gone on record to reiterate on this, but I think this is set as precedent that while Physick remains on SMN like a meme. They don't want to touch it.

And the thing to consider is Physick is an Arcanist spell that can't be ditched. When we sync down, both as SMN and SCH to < 30 lvl content, we retain the Arcanist Physick spell. SCH needs Physick to heal lower content. I can only see a future rework of SCH that takes it off Arcanist for good and becomes an individual job that starts at 30.

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Please can we start it at 1 instead, enough of having only 1 healer to choose for the entire start of the game, let’s stop endlessly funnelling people into WHM

I’d prefer it if they drew summoner and scholar back together, returning shadowflare, bane, fester, miasma, pet management to them and instead evolving physick(smn) into a slightly inferior ruin on living targets but slightly superior on undead. Not by much, just 20 potency or something. Enough that it would be a niche skill a combat oriented arcanist could feasibly have without being broken.

Honestly they should permanently remove Physick from the kit, and replace it with a really useful spell, tired of having healing/hot spells on a dps jobs that overheal 99.9% of the time,
the summoner does not need it, the healers too, especially since they can heal an entire group of 1% hp -> 100% in 2s and they dps 99.9% of the time because all the fights on ff14 have scripted dealing damage phases.

on top of that they count healing effects as utility, so they reduce our dps in return.

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Originally Posted by fulminating

I’d prefer it if they drew summoner and scholar back together, returning shadowflare, bane, fester, miasma, pet management to them and instead evolving physick(smn) into a slightly inferior ruin on living targets but slightly superior on undead. Not by much, just 20 potency or something. Enough that it would be a niche skill a combat oriented arcanist could feasibly have without being broken.

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I still to this day have no idea how square managed to ruin 2 perfectly good classes that came from the same origin yes did different things and both were so fun to play

Now we have overheal healer and 2 buttons is two too many DPS

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I still to this day have no idea how square managed to ruin 2 perfectly good classes that came from the same origin yes did different things and both were so fun to play

Now we have overheal healer and 2 buttons is two too many DPS

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the objective is to make the job more accessible, they made it so accessible that now you just have to press the same button, it's sad that they take out all the positive aspects of a job, to make it just only visual, the summoner and the scholar have just been the ugly ducklings of the devs since their existence, and there they lobotomize all the jobs little by little, extension by extension they remove useful spells for the benefit of those who are insipid.

am im the only one that still find it funny that they where going to get rid of raise and not physick when they did the smn rework

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Originally Posted by Kulve

I believe the last time this was ever brought up by the devs in a PLL asking the same question. This was the response; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KG5YxbKmbLI

NOW. This was back in Stormblood, and we can easily see what he's said concerning roles and balancing may create carbon copies, and what we see today in adjustments.

I'm not sure if he's gone on record to reiterate on this, but I think this is set as precedent that while Physick remains on SMN like a meme. They don't want to touch it.

And the thing to consider is Physick is an Arcanist spell that can't be ditched. When we sync down, both as SMN and SCH to < 30 lvl content, we retain the Arcanist Physick spell. SCH needs Physick to heal lower content. I can only see a future rework of SCH that takes it off Arcanist for good and becomes an individual job that starts at 30.

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Resurrection is the only spell that ACN and SCH share anymore. SCH has its own version of Physick. Just get rid of it, it can absolutely be ditched, the same way Resurrection will be turned into a SCH spell when they get rid of it on SMN in 7.0. Though knowing these devs, I wouldn't be surprised if 7.0 SCH launches without Resurrection at all because they'll forget it's still an ACN spell SCH has when they remove it.

Really ought to just get rid of SMN Physick or change it to actually scale off int. Why go out of their way to reassure players that it's staying in EW if it's still functionally useless lmao.

Physick is kind of a weird anachronism to the class. A remnant of it being the only class that splits into 2 different advanced classes (jobs). The reason it's not useful on the summoner is because it scales with Mind, which, at low levels, doesn't matter. However, as you get higher and higher level in the game, gear stats comprise the bulk of your actions' potency and the Physick falls off quickly as none of your gear as a SMN contains any Mind whatsoever (it's all Intelligence because DPS casters' abilities scale off of INT). So your Physick is essentially stuck at a lvl 30-ish effectiveness (because even with no gear you do still have like 300~ Mind at level 90). Pretty useless.

If they adjusted the Summoner's version of Physick to scale off of INT like Red Mage's Vercure (which was designed with INT scaling from the outset), they'd probably be around the same effectiveness. But as it is, you're probably better off not bothering to use it. Even in emergency situations it's like pouring a tiny cup of water into a giant bonfire.

I personally would like them to make a Physick II that's the same potency as Red Mage's Vercure and replace Physick at lvl 30 when the Arcanist converts to Summoner. Then that ability could individually be scaled off of INT instead of Mind without messing with the Mind scaling of Physick for Scholar. I doubt it will ever happen because the devs don't give a shit, but that's what I would do.

I do agree Physick should be removed in favor of replacing it with something more connected to the class or job. Perhaps instead of keeping Physick, let's have Arcanist utilize the supportive Carbuncle more and make the new action related to that summon. I would imagine XI Carbuncle's Healing Ruby ability would be a great inspiration as XIV Summoner has already pulled a few abilities from there, although functionally different. Make it a high potency self-healing ability, similar to melee and physical ranged's Second Wind with the same high cooldown. But why would Summoner get to have two healing abilities? Who knows, but as is now, the job is great for new players to navigate dungeon, trials, and raids with and all that matters is that it's Carbuncle-flavored. Everyone surely loves Carbuncle.

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Originally Posted by unjourneyed

I do agree Physick should be removed in favor of replacing it with something more connected to the class or job. Perhaps instead of keeping Physick, let's have Arcanist utilize the supportive Carbuncle more and make the new action related to that summon. I would imagine XI Carbuncle's Healing Ruby ability would be a great inspiration as XIV Summoner has already pulled a few abilities from there, although functionally different. Make it a high potency self-healing ability, similar to melee and physical ranged's Second Wind with the same high cooldown. But why would Summoner get to have two healing abilities? Who knows, but as is now, the job is great for new players to navigate dungeon, trials, and raids with and all that matters is that it's Carbuncle-flavored. Everyone surely loves Carbuncle.

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The summoner really doesn't need a heal, besides the phoenix single target heal is a terrible mistake, frankly I would rather have a small hp % team shield like 8-10% hp shield 120s cd,
it is much more useful than a heal, and it would make it possible to make a kind of competition with the magic barrier of the red mage but in a little bit less powerful,
since the current summoner is a red mage with a relatively poorer spell kit .

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Originally Posted by remiff

The summoner really doesn't need a heal, besides the phoenix single target heal is a terrible mistake, frankly I would rather have a small hp % team shield,
it is much more useful than a heal, and it would make it possible to make a kind of competition with the magic barrier of the red mage but in less powerful.

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I agree that astral flow for phoenix is pretty pointless and that making physick kinda a weak vercure is also pointless but a team wide shield on Phoenix is also pretty redundant as there is way too much rigidity to SMN’s rotation for it to be terribly useful and since phoenix is on the off minute it doesn’t even line up by virtue of high damage always aligning with the two minute burst window

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I agree that astral flow for phoenix is pretty pointless and that making physick kinda a weak vercure is also pointless but a team wide shield on Phoenix is also pretty redundant as there is way too much rigidity to SMN’s rotation for it to be terribly useful and since phoenix is on the off minute it doesn’t even line up by virtue of high damage always aligning with the two minute burst window

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No, of course, I'm talking about a new spell that replaces the loss of physick/single target phoenix heal, phoenix should recover an equivalent to deathflare, it is still harmful to make phoenix a less good burst than bahamut,
after all it's totally illogical for a key burst phase to be worse than the previous one, which is also the reason why they had to increase the phoenix damage in 6.1, the summoner was getting an unjustified nerf when he passed lv 80,
the phoenix should just be a reskin of bahamut if they don't drastically change how the burst/cycle phase works.

For me the current summoner kit is unjustifiably bad, the only positive is the personal shield, but superfluous regen effects are bad game design, knowing that healers don't need that kind of artifice, while sources of mitigation are actually useful and strong.

Summoner's good points:
-Personnal shield.
-the resurrection.
-searing light.
-mobility.

Négative:
-Useless physick
-team regen and astral flow regen stuck in phoenix, situational and superfluous.
-gap closer imposed in rotation with no choice on when to use it.
- Titan is more mobile and do more damage than garuda and ifrit .
''--Titan: 209.6 DPS 12.5s.
----'Ifrit: 191.1 DPS 13.5s.
---Garuda: 183.3 DPS 12s.

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Originally Posted by remiff

For me the current summoner kit is unjustifiably bad, the only positive is the personal shield, but superfluous regen effects are bad game design, knowing that healers don't need that kind of artifice, while sources of mitigation are actually useful and strong.

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To me is not even that the healers don't need the help (in a common scenario), but that the action is probably not available when they actually need the help: i.e. random groups taking too much avoidable damage, other healer dead or d/c, both healers down and still rezzing.

Alas it's a plague with Radiant Aegis as well. I'm never able to actually use the shield as an emergency resource when I mess up because there's a Demi or a primal out at that time.

DPS heal actions, movement, personal mitigators... they are all situational actions, and it's pointless when they are not available for use in those circumstances due to imposed unavailabilities.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

To me is not even that the healers don't need the help (in a common scenario), but that the action is probably not available when they actually need the help: i.e. random groups taking too much avoidable damage, other healer dead or d/c, both healers down and still rezzing.

Alas it's a plague with Radiant Aegis as well. I'm never able to actually use the shield as an emergency resource when I mess up because there's a Demi or a primal out at that time.

DPS heal actions, movement, personal mitigators... they are all situational actions, and it's pointless when they are not available for use in those circumstances due to imposed unavailabilities.

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Yes, the real problem with the utility of phoenix is ​​that we are stuck in an automatic heal at specific times or we cannot choose the right time to use the action, that said I find the effects of regen relatively less good than a good mitigation or a shield, especially since it's never been a problem for healers to restore hp,and for me the effects of regen on a dps job, especially when they are stuck in a rotation is nothing more than ''flavor'',
even if you could choose when to use the phoenix regen, a utility spell like magic barrier from the red mage would still be 100x more effective, because usually players take damage at specific times in ff14, and a simple mitigation
massively decreasing the damage and increasing the survivability, because after the damage phases, in general the healers have a few seconds to heal the entire team, even on soft enrage the mitigation is better.

While I agree physick should just go and get replaced with something else, there is something I want to clarify:

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Originally Posted by CrazyAce

I personally would like them to make a Physick II that's the same potency as Red Mage's Vercure and replace Physick at lvl 30 when the Arcanist converts to Summoner. Then that ability could individually be scaled off of INT instead of Mind without messing with the Mind scaling of Physick for Scholar. I doubt it will ever happen because the devs don't give a shit, but that's what I would do.

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Scholar already has their own version of Physick, and they have had it since Stormblood. The Arcanist version that scales to MIND is ONLY used for Summoner and has been for years. There is 0 reason for it to scale to MND still.

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Originally Posted by Flana

While I agree physick should just go and get replaced with something else, there is something I want to clarify:



Scholar already has their own version of Physick, and they have had it since Stormblood. The Arcanist version that scales to MIND is ONLY used for Summoner and has been for years. There is 0 reason for it to scale to MND still.

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Yeah, and you can easily confirm this on Garlandtools, both Physicks have different IDs. I knew as soon as I logged into SB and saw my SMN physick greyed out... But then, Physick was still there in the spellbook.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

Yeah, and you can easily confirm this on Garlandtools, both Physicks have different IDs. I knew as soon as I logged into SB and saw my SMN physick greyed out... But then, Physick was still there in the spellbook.

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This Is what Is mindblowing to me.. summoner's psychic Is different but works exactly like scholar's.. It Is like if at some point they wanted to change something but then left the project half done.. i really Would like to know why they did that and of there Is smt behind..