Roleplay Party Finder Account Suspensions

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Originally Posted by Kidria

It's not just the wrongful suspension on these people that's having attention called for to it, but also the actions of the GM itself. There is little to no evidence given by the GM, no actual attempt to explain the violation or even link the behavior to a violation. Not to mention, for the two people mentioned in the OP's post, these weren't even given the chance to be spoken to. They were just suspended at 3AM/4AM. The GM handling this appears to be the same one that did similar abuses of power in the past and now, even after the devs gave the OK for mature RP spaces to exist, continues to do so.

Bringing in the game's rating means little when the game itself includes highly mature themes such as suicide, enslavement, rape, torture, murder, sex/child trafficking, child abuse and child endangerment. These are infinitely darker and far more damaging of scenarios than RP venues promoting sex-positive spaces. In fact, the inclusion of "18+"/"21+" warnings is more adherent to the rating of the game than not including them.

ERP or mature RP in itself is not wrong between consenting players. By having the warning in PFs for venues, it paints a clear picture of the maturity needed to consent to these RP. Calling it a profanity is inane. Ageism doesn't apply when complying to stated rules and laws.

The GM handing out these suspensions is abusing rank and power and, once again, needs to be taken down and take responsibility for the abuse. Considering this is the second string of like abuse, the GM in question really should not be allowed to decide in, mediate, or interact with the player base.

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If this is the same GM doing the same thing, then it definitely sounds like SE might have some house cleaning to do. It's only going to give them bad PR if their GMs don't stay within their own guidelines.

I know a lot of this conversation has focused on "You're venue is 18+ and that's why you were suspended." But on the other hand, there was a venue out of the 4 known incidents that didn't offer ERP/sexual activities. They didn't advertise it either. Another venue didn't advertise it was 18+ either, though it did offer those kinds of private services between consenting players. Maybe if there was more consistency to this, I'd stand by the argument that yeah, those kinds of things should be a suspendable offense but there really isn't.

Not only that but my own personal opinion is that if a player has never been spoken to or received any sort of penalty or warning, that should be provided first. Give a player the chance to correct their behavior before outright punishing them.

As for names of the venue, I can describe what they are but due to keeping the individuals private, including my own wife who really wanted no part of this, I won't say their names. Scrapyard already provided their name, suspended last night (does offer 18+ services and advertised). The next was a cabaret and lounge on Coeurl, also suspended last night (does offer 18+ services but did not advertise that). The third is a winery and spa on Goblin, suspended on January 5, I believe (does not offer 18+ services). The fourth, I don't recognize the player or the venue so I can't provide any details apart from the fact that they chimed in on Twitter with a screenshot.

It is understandable for GM's to not give information for infractions when it comes to cheating, because that information can be used to avoid the detection later.

However when it comes to social issues it should be paramount that the user is informed over what is wrong such as potentially unintended harassment, so that the user doesn't accidentally repeat the offence.

oh another one of these threads

All I can say is that I'm not even 100% convinced this has anything, and I mean ANYTHING to do with venues being (18+) and/or possibly hinting at 18+ related content. As of recent, the PFs are just being FLOODED with multiple venue ADs (which has become a norm when you're in an MMORPG with a high RPing community). But the fact that I've seen not 1, but 5 different venues ALL hosting over 5 PFs each?!

Like.... who in the heck needs over 5 PFs to let the community know "HEY WE'RE OPEN" or "WE'RE NOT OPEN TONIGHT BUT REMEMBER WE EXIST SO COME WHEN WE DO OPEN" over and over, back to back?!!? Two PFs should be enough to get the point across. If you're worried about a little "competition" don't spam your venue like a desperate attention gremlin! You're just giving yourself AND your venue a bad image and dragging EVERY other venue down with you!! I'm not going to mention any venue names, but a certain few need to tone it down a notch and realize the damage they're possibly doing and how it's affecting the RPing portion of the FFXIV community as a whole.

this reminds of this one https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...cement-by-GM-s

Yeah if you're gonna do an 18+ event, keep all the promotions to discord.

Even if you think your 18+ refers to 'we're gonna chat about taxes and infrastructure legislation' most people will read it as ERP...

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

It is understandable for GM's to not give information for infractions when it comes to cheating, because that information can be used to avoid the detection later.

However when it comes to social issues it should be paramount that the user is informed over what is wrong such as potentially unintended harassment, so that the user doesn't accidentally repeat the offence.

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Essentially. Just getting a slap across the face without an explanation does nothing. Yes yes, they pointed out a particular part of the ToS--okay but how is it a violation? What part of the statement? The GM overseeing these need to be able to answer these questions, otherwise you're not closing the loop and only inviting more trouble by not providing the explanation and reasoning, which leads to more threads like this.

Otherwise it is, again, an abuse of station and power.

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Originally Posted by Metamorph

All I can say is that I'm not even 100% convinced this has anything, and I mean ANYTHING to do with venues being (18+) and/or possibly hinting at 18+ related content. As of recent, the PFs are just being FLOODED with multiple venue ADs (which has become a norm when you're in an MMORPG with a high RPing community). But the fact that I've seen not 1, but 5 different venues ALL hosting over 5 PFs each?!

Like.... who in the heck needs over 5 PFs to let the community know "HEY WE'RE OPEN" or "WE'RE NOT OPEN TONIGHT BUT REMEMBER WE EXIST SO COME WHEN WE DO OPEN" over and over, back to back?!!? Two PFs should be enough to get the point across. If you're worried about a little "competition" don't spam your venue like a desperate attention gremlin! You're just giving yourself AND your venue a bad image and dragging EVERY other venue down with you!! I'm not going to mention any venue names, but a certain few need to tone it down a notch and realize the damage they're possibly doing and how it's affecting the RPing portion of the FFXIV community as a whole.

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This...this so hard. I'm gonna bow out of the conversation now, mostly because I've made the points I wanted to. I think the general consensus is that the situation is kinda shenanigans.

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Originally Posted by Metamorph

All I can say is that I'm not even 100% convinced this has anything, and I mean ANYTHING to do with venues being (18+) and/or possibly hinting at 18+ related content. As of recent, the PFs are just being FLOODED with multiple venue ADs (which has become a norm when you're in an MMORPG with a high RPing community). But the fact that I've seen not 1, but 5 different venues ALL hosting over 5 PFs each?!

Like.... who in the heck needs over 5 PFs to let the community know "HEY WE'RE OPEN" or "WE'RE NOT OPEN TONIGHT BUT REMEMBER WE EXIST SO COME WHEN WE DO OPEN" over and over, back to back?!!? Two PFs should be enough to get the point across. If you're worried about a little "competition" don't spam your venue like a desperate attention gremlin! You're just giving yourself AND your venue a bad image and dragging EVERY other venue down with you!! I'm not going to mention any venue names, but a certain few need to tone it down a notch and realize the damage they're possibly doing and how it's affecting the RPing portion of the FFXIV community as a whole.

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That's not what this thread is about. While I don't disagree with you, this is about the suspension of individuals, tied to an 18+ venue (and more importantly those who were NOT) for advertisements posted in the party finder. A number of those affected are people who only had one or two advertisements, the number of advertisements listed has absolutely no consistency or tie to the problem stated in the thread.

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Originally Posted by Kidria

Essentially. Just getting a slap across the face without an explanation does nothing. Yes yes, they pointed out a particular part of the ToS--okay but how is it a violation? What part of the statement? The GM overseeing these need to be able to answer these questions, otherwise you're not closing the loop and only inviting more trouble by not providing the explanation and reasoning, which leads to more threads like this.

Otherwise it is, again, an abuse of station and power.

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It's the same method employed for any rule violation in order to make it less likely for someone to identify and go after the individual or individuals responsible for filing a report.

Furthermore attempting to bypass the rules through workarounds often still counts as a breach of the terms of service. If someone creates a character name that reads as a slur with has a few letters adjusted to technically not be on, it can still be considered inappropriate and forcibly changed.

So, too, would it be viable in the eyes of many for someone to be punished if they're advertising their venue as suitable only for players aged eighteen and up when a little bit of light digging reveals that escort services are on offer in exchange for gil.

A lot of people seem to be under the impression that such is allowed so long as they aren't caught doing it - but if they're not keeping it entirely private, then the risk of exposure is naturally higher.

I'd also note that GM's are capable of examining chat logs at length and it's perfectly possible that they identified something worthy of punishment.

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Originally Posted by milkhorn

Thank you for replying to this melafyre, I was hoping you would as well.

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Well, that's definitely for the PF listing, then. No ambiguity there.

It looks like you're advertising 18+ stuff at your own risk now, even if the advertisement itself is not the least bit risque. Yikes. I do not like that. My sympathies.

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Originally Posted by Axxion

this reminds of this one https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...cement-by-GM-s

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Precisely why I put it in my original post, there are similarities.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

So she should appeal the moderation action. She should ask for clarification of what the problem was.

Part of the reason they posted an updated prohibited activities notice was to offer clarification to players attempting to abide by the ToS. That need for clarity should extend to what GMs reveal to players who have had action taken against their account.

If GMs are still resorting to vague references, the clarification the update was intended to provide is not happening.

Also, an 18+ restriction doesn't make a venue a "safe place" so there's no reason to advertise it as such.

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A safe place can differ for those that use and make it, but that's besides the point. Vague references are unhelpful, we're talking in circles here. No clarification is given, and people who have received the same punishment all have different kinds of venues they are posting for. At this point it just seems like a target on people who own venues and post them in party finder.

I do have to say, though, I am disappointed with the number of responses in the thread yet the overarching idea that the primary problem faced in the situation is now being nitpicked and broken down into completely unrelated sub-topics like third party website creation and content, advertisement density, venue name? silly, and content of consenting individuals in private spaces. Even if I were to address the 18+ tag used as a content warning to deter minors and non-consenting parties from getting involved with potential mature themes, there's still an overarching point to this whole thread.

The fact of the matter is, a number of individuals without any form of first offenses have been reprimanded regardless of content of what they were advertising. Party finder density, 18+ content or NOT, people have been unjustly affected. What should we say about those venues who did not advertise nor sell/offer mature services? If we are to encourage the idea that party finder may not be allowed to have an 18+ tag (which mind you, most of these offenses have been reported under profanity as opposed to any other suitable offense) but still maintain the idea that party finder is, in fact, suitable to advertise player events and venues, we are thusly also encouraging the idea of obscuring potential content warnings for unwilling parties and parties not-of-age to stumble upon content (which, as another reminder, most said content IS in fact behind closed doors, private quarters, and with consenting parties and are thus not open for public audience FOR said exposure, but I digress) which could be disturbing or uncomfortable.

For now, in the meantime, staff and runners of venues would be safer to advertise in private servers or discord and remain in communication and support with one another to their discretion, as opposed to attempting to adhere to community guidelines and their inconsistencies when under the thumb of a GM who has already made a number of venue and rp-related offenses and received reprimand.

Oh, I know exactly what this thread is about.
I apologize if my statement seems "out of topic", but I feel that it does still tie in with the wrongly pressed accusations towards the suspended individuals I am well associated with. I have known them for almost a year and can confirm (if not vouch) that the suspension is indeed unjustified. Not just towards them, but all those who have been suspended alongside them. Aside from the (18+), there was no "profanity" displayed on any PFs held last night. However, I simply wanted to get my 2 cents across the situation before bowing out as well. I hope this is all taken care of and made known.

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Originally Posted by milkhorn

Precisely why I put it in my original post, there are similarities.

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per the community rep Zhexos

Greetings, everyone.

Thank you for your patience while we reviewed the situation. In short, there was an internal miscommunication which led to account actions being issued incorrectly. We sincerely apologize for the concern that this has caused the community. There has not been any change to our existing policy, and we want to assure players that our focus is on taking action against inappropriate advertisements/listings.

We will work to ensure proper communication is being done within the GM team and strive to ensure quality service and operations.

I guess it wasnt communicated properly

A disappointing answer, though thank you for sharing.

An internal miscommunication regardless, for the same GM making a similar set of heavy-handed decisions again involving the use of party finder and venue advertisement a number of times is certainly one KIND of miscommunication I suppose.

This is pretty ridiculous tbh. Square needs to take care to ensure their ToS is not being abused by haters who just want to run RP out of the game.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Your venue has erp services in the list...


They probably did some research lol

2 seconds of Google found this with just the venue name.

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ERP is explicitly allowed by the ToS so long as all involved parties consent. So what point exactly do you think you're making?

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

This is pretty ridiculous tbh. Square needs to take care to ensure their ToS is not being abused by haters who just want to run RP out of the game.

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No one is running RP out of the game. There are a lot of people skirting the truth in here to make it seem like their totally innocent, not in any way against the tos venues are getting them suspended.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

ERP is explicitly allowed by the ToS so long as all involved parties consent. So what point exactly do you think you're making?

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Yes, in a private setting. The party finder is not that

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Yes, in a private setting. The party finder is not that

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Simply putting 18+ in your venue ad is not an offer for ERP, or anything for that matter. Trying to pretend that this is somehow a violation is a huge joke.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

Simply putting 18+ in your venue ad is not an offer for ERP, or anything for that matter. Trying to pretend that this is somehow a violation is a huge joke.

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They link their venue. That lists erp for sale, thus is it linked to the PF and the person.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

They link their venue. That lists erp for sale, thus is it linked to the PF and the person.

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So what? It's their own off-site page. They can list whatever they want there.

Bottom line, it seems the GMs have admitted in this case that they handled it wrong. Thus, you are wrong.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

No one is running RP out of the game. There are a lot of people skirting the truth in here to make it seem like their totally innocent, not in any way against the tos venues are getting them suspended.

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With the amount of times that people will needlessly report roleplayers and roleplay venues out of sheer spite, you can see why people would start to be skeptical and come to this conclusion. If we are not directly putting adult themes/erp in someone's face, we need to know exactly what the issue is. If it's venues linking their carrds, if it's their 'to-be-interpreted' language in the party finder. It needs to be more clear cut so we can follow the directions, otherwise a warning would have suffice.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

No one is running RP out of the game. There are a lot of people skirting the truth in here to make it seem like their totally innocent, not in any way against the tos venues are getting them suspended.

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Spoken as the One True Mrs. Grundy of Final Fantasy XIV. I congratulate you.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

So what? It's their own off-site page. They can list whatever they want there.

Bottom line, it seems the GMs have admitted in this case that they handled it wrong. Thus, you are wrong.

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Off site is no longer an excuse and hasn't been for ages. That's how they suspended the toxic streamers after all.

And they are quoting an old post in regards to the topic from last year. Not this one

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

Spoken as the One True Mrs. Grundy of Final Fantasy XIV. I congratulate you.

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LOL, I don't really care if they do it in game, or in private. I don't have anything to do with the reports. I just think there's a lot of mudding the waters to make them seem like they did absolutely nothing wrong.


I said the same thing when streamers got banned for harassing people outside the game.


I never said they can't have their fun. They just can't advertise it like they have been.

I'd encourage anyone who's been hit by these suspensions to open appeals. I don't know how well it'll work, but be prepared to state your case with as much info and knowledge as you can.

I run a venue myself, and my officer who does advertising for us has already decided that they won't be placing us into PF when we reopen next week. Our venue offers zero ERP services, we don't allow anything overtly sexual, but as we're a fight club that engages in particularly brutal bloodsport (virtually no rules to the fights), we keep it to 18+. I don't want my friend getting in trouble despite the fact that we're nowhere close to being a sexy venue.

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

However when it comes to social issues it should be paramount that the user is informed over what is wrong such as potentially unintended harassment, so that the user doesn't accidentally repeat the offence.

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While I agree in essence, having spent time on the other side of the player/developer divide, I can also note that it's not always a great idea to do so; sometimes giving details on the infraction can unintentionally also give details on who reported the person in the first place, which can then lead to vendettas from the disciplined towards the reporter. So it comes down to "do you err on the side of giving information to the one being disciplined, even if it means they can then whip up people to harass the one who reported them, or do you err on the side of not giving them any ammunition to go harass others?"

But no matter which one you choose, generally you need to pick one and stick with it (rather than relying on individual CS folks to make a judgment call on "do I tell this person info or not", and potentially making them personally responsible for any ensuing harassment). And for good or ill, Square-Enix seems to have fallen on the "let's not give anyone ammunition" side of that divide.

I lurked the last time this happened, but didn't that end up being one single GM on some weird crusade? I can't help but wonder if the same thing is happening again. Whatever the case, this action needs to be corrected ASAP and whoever submitted the reports in the first place should probably be investigated for abusing the function. As others have quoted in the thread already, this sort of usage of the Party Finder's Other tab is explicitly allowed according to the recent TOS update. It also looks like people were suspended who did not use "18+" or similar terms in their PF listings, so that strawman is out the window.

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Originally Posted by Hyla_Featherfoot

I lurked the last time this happened, but didn't that end up being one single GM on some weird crusade?

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It's the same GM as last time, yes. Which is why a lot of people are (understandably) frustrated.
EDIT: And yes, last time it had nothing to do with 18+ anything.
The venues in question in the past (as well as at least one banned last night) were not 18+ venues at all.
I still think this is a personal vendetta or grudge that this GM has and I hope that he's pulled aside by his supervisor.
I'm echoing the statement made earlier that, if this has happened to you, then appeal it.
RPers are a part of this game, he can get over it.

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Originally Posted by Atreyu

It's the same GM as last time, yes. Which is why a lot of people are (understandably) frustrated.
EDIT: And yes, last time it had nothing to do with 18+ anything.
The venues in question in the past (as well as at least one banned last night) were not 18+ venues at all.
I still think this is a personal vendetta or grudge that this GM has and I hope that he's pulled aside by his supervisor.
I'm echoing the statement made earlier that, if this has happened to you, then appeal it.
RPers are a part of this game, he can get over it.

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Assuming this is true (after all this is the internet), perhaps SE should review whether this GM should remain employed after doing this again. I know that if I caused my company to feel it necessary to issue a public statement to address my indiscretions, and then later repeated my actions, I would almost certainly be fired.

I do wonder how that poor fisherman looking for a friend is doing these days.

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Originally Posted by Hyla_Featherfoot

Assuming this is true (after all this is the internet), perhaps SE should review whether this GM should remain employed after doing this again. I know that if I caused my company to feel it necessary to issue a public statement to address my indiscretions, and then later repeated my actions, I would almost certainly be fired.

I do wonder how that poor fisherman looking for a friend is doing these days.

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Didn’t we just go over not baying for developer’s heads when we disagree with them?

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Originally Posted by van_arn

Didn’t we just go over not baying for developer’s heads when we disagree with them?

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They're not a developer. They're employed specifically to enforce the TOS that developers have made.
Nor is it 'baying for their heads' to say 'if they cannot do their job both fairly and effectively, then perhaps they should not be doing that particular job'.
This GM is clearly a repeat offender.
Nobody has a problem with the TOS. Everyone thus far has said this.
All anyone is expecting is clarification and transparency. In some cases, perhaps it is the third-party website that is linked.
That is fair, if so.
In other cases, however, it seems to be totally random and with those banned still left asking what they did wrong. That's setting people up for failure and for another infraction.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

Didn’t we just go over not baying for developer’s heads when we disagree with them?

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The developers have spoken on this topic and given good explanations and guidance which I believe the player base supported almost universally. I absolutely agree with the developers on this topic, and was quite happy with the clarifications they gave as part of the announcement in October. However, developers and GMs are not the same people. This GM is operating in direct contradiction to the developers' guidance, and that needs to be addressed in one way or another.

I have to say it will be extremely interesting to see a full disclosure of all of this, will never happen of course but still...

This GM is doing good work. Keep on booting them where it hurts.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

This GM is doing good work. Keep on booting them where it hurts.

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Oh, hey, bait