I thought people might be exaggerating about SMN

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by XmissionsX

Off course it’s popular it’s the third new class introduced in ew the other 2 new classes are popular also so what’s your point ?

---

Their point is that it's not dead if it's popular.

How can a Job that's being played by a lot of people also be a dead Job, a Job that nobody plays?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stepjam

Personally, I do think it's too simple now, but on the other hand it works with nearly zero jank (shields should be available whenever IMO) which is more than old SMN can say.

I think its a good foundation. Personally, I think next expac should add shiva, ramuh, and leviathan as the summons post pheonix. And they should go wild with both the post summon attacks. Make them each do completely different things.

---

Despite being a Final Fantasy icon, I don't think we're going to get Shiva, since she's like... an actual person, based on another actual person, and also was our now-dead friend. Calling out an imitation of the ghost of your dead buddy as part of your damage rotation would feel a bit ghoulish.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maxilor

The main issue was that the previous version of Summoner was so complex that it was completely unapproachable to a good number of players, myself included.

New SMN may be simple but everyone can understand and play it, and I think that was the goal.

Personally, I think it's fun and interesting but I can see why people are upset.

Hopefully they build upon this new foundation and it regains some of the complexity it had before eventually.

---

Completely unapproachable? What are you even talking about. None of the classes in this game are no where near that hard, SHB SMN included, outside of like the top 1% of parses. The only version of the class that was actually a little bit "unapproachable" was SB SMN during Bahamuts burst phase because some peoples hands couldn't do it.

And if you thought it was "unapproachable" then you should of found something else to play instead of wanting them to dumb down this class. Thanks for ruining the class because you couldn't understand a 120s rotation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aelin_Ashryver

I want the silly phoenix excog replaced with an actual cool flashy dmg skill and some potency buffs so it is above RDM where it should be and the job is pretty perfect for me. I love the new summons and am interested to see what they add in the next expansion for it.

---

I suspect it's going to stay at the bottom of the caster DPS charts since it has by far the most mobility, almost unlimited mobility really. For the ranged jobs, damage potential seems to be inversely proportional to freedom of movement.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kejakalope

Despite being a Final Fantasy icon, I don't think we're going to get Shiva, since she's like... an actual person, based on another actual person, and also was our now-dead friend. Calling out an imitation of the ghost of your dead buddy as part of your damage rotation would feel a bit ghoulish.

---

I mean, a similiar logic could be applied to Phoenix. lol Yet we still have that one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darthgummibear

I heard almost exactly this for over a decade in WoW until pretty much every class had no depth or identity left. It's one of the reasons I left that game for good and I don't want to see that happen here.

---

There's some big differences between WOW and FFXIV that you're sort of overlooking here.

For one, the classes in WOW basically did not exist in Warcraft as they are until WOW.

Warcraft being an RTS and all. So WOW essentially invented its own interpretation of those classes, and laid the groundwork for them. Any deviation from those classes by Blizzard over time would rightly lead people to feel that they weren't what they're supposed to be.

But Summoner doesn't begin with FFXIV. Most of the Jobs in FFXIV do not begin with FFXIV. And the rest of Final Fantasy is not an RTS.

It is reasonable to expect, the other games being RPGs, and one of them being an MMORPG, that flagship Jobs in FFXIV will resemble the Jobs from other games.

2.0 SMN was unrecognizable as any Summoner that came before it. You can bet that fans of FF outside of XIV coming to the game have been giving Yoshida years worth of feedback saying "Summoner isn't right."

So they took steps to make it right. Because they listen to overwhelming feedback.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vegituh

Completely unapproachable? What are you even talking about. None of the classes in this game are no where near that hard, SHB SMN included, outside of like the top 1% of parses. The only version of the class that was actually a little bit "unapproachable" was SB SMN during Bahamuts burst phase because some peoples hands couldn't do it.

And if you thought it was "unapproachable" then you should of found something else to play instead of trying to dumb down this class so you can play it. Thanks for ruining the class because you couldn't understand a 120s rotation.

---

The simple fact of the matter is, Square would not have done what they did if their data didn't suggest a majority of players found the job unsatisfying due to a combination of being extremely demanding + not delivering on the fantasy they wanted; and if their data didn't suggest the number of people engaging the job was so low that they felt the work they were putting into it was being squandered on a failed design.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kejakalope

The simple fact of the matter is, Square would not have done what they did if their data didn't suggest a majority of players found the job unsatisfying due to a combination of being extremely demanding + not delivering on the fantasy they wanted; and if their data didn't suggest the number of people engaging the job was so low that they felt the work they were putting into it was being squandered on a failed design.

---

Years of people whinging on the forums about "Class fantasy" and "clunk" is what killed this class. The class was not under-represented in game at any point from the metrics we have available, like Lucky Bancho. But unfortunately, Squares motivations or metrics are completely unknown because they never release any concrete info. And of course more people play the class now. Its easier and its flashy. Doesn't mean its a good class.

Complexity for the sake of being complex is not good gameplay either. I much prefer this version of Summoner and have been having a blast playing it in lv.90 content so far.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vegituh

Years of people whinging on the forums about "Class fantasy" and "clunk" is what killed this class. The class was not under-represented in game at any point from the metrics we have available, like Lucky Bancho. But unfortunately, Squares motivations or metrics are completely unknown because they never release any concrete info. And of course more people play the class now. Its easier and its flashy. Doesn't mean its a good class.

---

It was the single least-played job in the game by the end of Shadowbringers. The numbers are the numbers, and the numbers are what Square pays attention to. Also, you can sneer at "class fantasy" all you like, but it's why I myself jumped off Summoner shortly after ARR launched once I realized it was never going to, even at level 50, call down a real Primal for even a single attack, but instead would just have three plastic doodads from a gumball machine and babysit a bunch of DoTs. I jumped ship to Monk.

Now I'm playing Summoner again because it's finally a real Summoner. I am far from alone.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kejakalope

local man lines up, takes shot, misses wildly, blows out window of own car

---

Misses wildly? You gain your power from conjoining with an outside being with the ability to screw with your spiritual being while basing your damage around variations 1 ability and occasionally sending your pet out to do an attack. DnD Warlock with a Fiend Patron (Primals) taking Pact of the Chain to get your imp (Egi's) and spamming variations of Ruin (Eldritch Blast).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kejakalope

It was the single least-played job in the game by the end of Shadowbringers. The numbers are the numbers, and the numbers are what Square pays attention to.

---

First I've heard of that. Got some source with that claim? I remember, personally, seeing less Monks than Summoners at max in the final days of SHB.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mathias-merodach

Misses wildly? You gain your power from conjoining with an outside being with the ability to screw with your spiritual being while basing your damage around variations 1 ability and occasionally sending your pet out to do an attack. DnD Warlock with a Fiend Patron (Primals) taking Pact of the Chain to get your imp (Egi's) and spamming variations of Ruin (Eldritch Blast).

---

Final Fantasy's summoner predates the class first showing up in D&D 3.X by well over a decade, never mind 5e. The "XIV" at the end of the title isn't just because they think straight lines look cool, it means "Fourteen" and it indicates there were thirteen more of these games before this one came out.

edit: also, that's... not how XIV's Summoner works. Your Egis are created by shaping your own aether into a likeness of the power of a defeated primal. You are not making a pact with Ifrit or whatever.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vegituh

First I've heard of that. Got some source with that claim? I remember, personally, seeing less Monks than Summoners at max in the final days of SHB.

---

I got it from Lucky Bancho. MNK was the least-played melee, and I think third or fourth least-played job overall. SMN was least-played caster and least-played job period, discounting BLU of course.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kejakalope

I got it from Lucky Bancho. MNK was the least-played melee, and I think third or fourth least-played job overall. SMN was least-played caster and least-played job period, discounting BLU of course.

---

Mind pointing me to the one you used? Due to LB being in japanese and me not knowing a lick of it I can't find a more recent LB census for SHB. The one I could find, via reddit translators, was in April of 2021 and paints a much different landscape to what you are saying.

Here ya go https://imgur.com/GofAisM

From what that says, at least in April 2021, SMN was the 3rd most played DPS via Lucky Bancho's census. The census also seems to follow what I remember, with BRD and MNK being the least played DPS classes over all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kejakalope

Final Fantasy's summoner predates the class first showing up in D&D 3.X by well over a decade, never mind 5e. The "XIV" at the end of the title isn't just because they think straight lines look cool, it means "Fourteen" and it indicates there were thirteen more of these games before this one came out.

edit: also, that's... not how XIV's Summoner works. Your Egis are created by shaping your own aether into a likeness of the power of a defeated primal. You are not making a pact with Ifrit or whatever.

---

You are right it's not exactly like it, it was to make a comparison not an exact replica -- not unlike the constant comparison to WoW Warlock just because it had two DoT abilities.

But only 13 then? Must not be counting the spinoffs then like Tactics and Tactics Advanced 1/2.... And in regards to speaking of the mainline alone from start to 14, that's 7 appearances of the class, only 3 where it was actually gainable job and not character assigned, 2 where every playable character could summon everything, 1 where each playable character received a personal one (12 fits somewhere in the latter two categories; I honestly don't remember). In two of the side games, it's race locked to Viera. Because the class, as all can and occasionally do, change based on the world of the game they are taking place in.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vegituh

Completely unapproachable? What are you even talking about. None of the classes in this game are no where near that hard, SHB SMN included, outside of like the top 1% of parses. The only version of the class that was actually a little bit "unapproachable" was SB SMN during Bahamuts burst phase because some peoples hands couldn't do it.

And if you thought it was "unapproachable" then you should of found something else to play instead of wanting them to dumb down this class. Thanks for ruining the class because you couldn't understand a 120s rotation.

---

Yes it was me. I was the one who pressed the 'Make Class Simple' button. Who will stop my sinful hand?

Seriously, I understand your upset but SMN was one of the least played classes not because of it's potential to do damage which was VERY HIGH but because it was so clunky and complex it wasn't worth the headache to a lot of people.

And I played Red Mage fyi. I now also play Summoner.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maxilor

[B]

Seriously, I understand your upset but SMN was one of the least played classes not because of it's potential to do damage which was VERY HIGH but because it was so clunky and complex it wasn't worth the headache to a lot of people.

---

May I point you to this Lucky Bancho census report from April 2021 that says otherwise?

https://imgur.com/GofAisM


And in case you are wondering, Lucky Bancho is pretty much our most reliable source of player data due to the fact that Square Enix does not like releasing much of anything when it comes to playerbase data.


But no, from what I can tell through our available resources, SMN has rarely, if ever, been the least played class in the game. That is just hyperbole from online forum goers to explain why this new Summoner is okay.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vegituh

May I point you to this Lucky Bancho census report from April 2021 that says otherwise?

https://imgur.com/GofAisM


And in case you are wondering, Lucky Bancho is pretty much our most reliable source of player data due to the fact that Square Enix does not like releasing much of anything when it comes to playerbase data.


But no, from what I can tell through our available resources, SMN has rarely, if ever, been the least played class in the game. That is just hyperbole from online forum goers to explain why this new Summoner is okay.

---

Regardless, clearly not enough people played it to justify its previous design.

just cos you don't like it doesn't mean other people don't, summoner is certainly not dead. I don't like the way ninja plays but that doesn't mean I go declaring the class is dead.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Regardless, clearly not enough people played it to justify its previous design.

---

Well if Lucky Bancho is at all representative of the player bases numbers, which by the fact its highly regarded by said playerbase it probably is, we should be seeing a complete rework of BRD anytime soon. Going by your logic at least.



Anyways thanks for glossing over my data and acting like it doesn't mean anything. 3rd most played DPS class last summer? Nah, still not enough people to "justify" its existence. Nice. Good to know that you've already made up your mind and anything against your chosen course is not worth looking at.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vegituh

Well if Lucky Bancho is at all representative of the player bases numbers, which by the fact its highly regarded by said playerbase it probably is, we should be seeing a complete rework of BRD anytime soon. Going by your logic at least.

---

Honestly, given how much crying ive seen on the DPS Forums I would not be surprised for a complete BRD Rework. lol

Bard could definitely use a rework to become more of a bard instead of an archer, hopefully sooner rather than later.

I leveled SMN first in ShB, but after I got it to cap I switched and barely used it again. It was just painful for my hands and punishing for any mistakes.

I decided to level it as my first job in EW because I thought it looked really cool. I had fun with it and it doesn't hurt my hands anymore. Yes, it does feel very simple. I hope they add more to it, but for now it is still an improvement in my book.

I leveled RDM as well and I am tentatively maining that over SMN, but I enjoy both.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vegituh

Good to know that you've already made up your mind

---

Hey, I'm just glad we can finally agree on something.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Hey, I'm just glad we can finally agree on something.

---

At least you aren't denying the fact that you don't care about actual data and the only thing that matters is what you think.

7

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Bard could definitely use a rework to become more of a bard instead of an archer, hopefully sooner rather than later.

---

I'd prefer to see a proper mix of the two. Effectively combining archery with Bard's musical prowess instead of it awkwardly leaning one way or the other.

I like smn thematically now but hate how it plays. I use to main smn from HW-StB and I like how with Aetherflow had to plan how you wanted to use it. Do you Painflare or hold off so you can Bane your next set of mobs. It wasn't much but you got to strategize how you play. I stopped playing in ShB because the job became too complicated and I didn't feel any enjoyment from playing well. Now it looks great but is way too dumb down that even if I play well I don't feel like I've accomplished much.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vegituh

At least you aren't denying the fact that you don't care about actual data and the only thing that matters is what you think.

---

It is a bit jaundiced to characterize a Job people are enjoying as "bad" and then go on to say that actual data is the only thing that counts.

It's not an exaggeration when you can macro the entire SMN rotation into 1 button. They literally killed the job

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Floortank

It is a bit jaundiced to characterize a Job people are enjoying as "bad" and then go on to say that actual data is the only thing that counts.

---

I could say the same to the people who are claiming that the "data" backs up the rework, but when proven otherwise they say that the data doesn't matter.

Not to mention the amount of people in this thread claiming that the class was bad before. According to said data, a decent amount of people enjoyed that version of the class, including me.

So its okay for people to say SHB SMN was bad, but me saying EW SMN is bad is wrong? People who liked the old class don't matter? Only the new EW SMNers matter apparently.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vegituh

So its okay for people to say SHB SMN was bad, but me saying EW SMN is bad is wrong? People who liked the old class don't matter? Only the new EW SMNers matter apparently.

---

No, it's not correct for people to discard the opinions of people who liked old SMN. I accept those opinions and realize the profound disappointment being expressed. Not being sarcastic.

But! You are definitely not presenting yourself well to say "the data, the data" and disregard all the data right here in the thread, of people saying they like it now, and enjoy it.

I find the reasons for changing SMN to make a lot of sense. It does not lessen the consequences it has had on people who are/were attached to the old Job. I do not think it makes the new Job bad, however. Certainly unpleasant to some who share your POV.

If data is really important, then all data is important, not just the information that agrees with you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Floortank

No, it's not correct for people to discard the opinions of people who liked old SMN. I accept it and realize the profound disappointment. Not being sarcastic.

But! You are definitely not presenting yourself well to say "the data, the data" and disregard all the data right here in the thread, of people saying they like it now, and enjoy it.

I find the reasons for changing SMN to make a lot of sense. It does not lessen the consequences it has had on people who are/were attached to the old Job. I do not think it makes the new Job bad, however. Certainly unpleasant to some who share your POV.

---

The only reason I started bringing up "the data!" was due to the amount of people in this thread claiming that SHB SMN was the least played class in the game and that proved that no one liked the class. So I proved that it was, in fact, wrong, and now people are claiming the data doesn't matter.

And dude, you have no idea how unreliable these fourms are for gauging anything about this game. If you go by the fourms opinion, you will have a very misshapen view of this game. Besides, I see a decent amount of people upset with the class rework, and not just in these forums. "All data is important" right?

+1 to a Bard rework it’s been needed for a while lol.

But more to the point of the Summoner I’ve tried but I just don’t dislike it. I don’t find it particularly boring; it’s definitely repetitive and lacking in oGCD, but I don’t think it’s unsalvageable. And as someone who played and enjoyed the old Summoner I think personally I like this one better.

Not that I don’t understand where the people who like the previous are coming from. I’ve seen Bard ‘reworked’ so many times I gave up on it completely, so I’m kinda numbed to that sort of thing myself tbh lol.

I guess the best compromise at this point would be to keep Summoner as it is (in terms of general design) and creating a new class that more fits the themes of the initial Summoner, as a tactical DoT focused dps? That way people who like new Summoner can stay where they can but people who dislike it can still have the same as what they had before? The only thing that’d be missing is ‘pets’, since I’m sure the devs said they’ll never make a pet job again after Summoner/Scholar lol. But then, the Egis were also the least popular aspect of the previous Summoner, at least as far as I can tell. So maybe they could do away with that portion entirely and focus more on abilities focused around DoT-oriented interactions like Fester and Bane?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vegituh

The only reason I started bringing up "the data!" was due to the amount of people in this thread claiming that SHB SMN was the least played class in the game and that proved that no one liked the class. So I proved that it was, in fact, wrong, and now people are claiming the data doesn't matter.

And dude, you have no idea how unreliable these fourms are for gauging anything about this game. If you go by the fourms opinion, you will have a very misshapen view of this game. Besides, I see a decent amount of people upset with the class rework, and not just in these forums. "All data is important" right?

---

The forum is a place to go for information. You're here too, aren't you?

Edit: I hope you recognize the irony of using the forum to express how unreliable forum poster opinions are.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Floortank

The forum is a place to go for information. You're here too, aren't you?

---

It is generally my last place to go for information. Most people that I have talked to have a very negative view of this place, and considering some of the topics I've seen in this forum over the years I tend to agree.

My best friend, who got me into this game in the first place back in ARR, told me to never come here for information. I tend to check Reddit, Discord and Twitter way before I check here. And the only reason I am here right now was boredom while waiting in queue. Didn't have much else to read. Felt like shutting down some of the lies I saw in this thread, but I'm pretty sure I've wasted my time. Oh well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vegituh

It is generally my last place to go for information. Most people that I have talked to have a very negative view of this place, and considering some of the topics I've seen in this forum over the years I tend to agree.

My best friend, who got me into this game in the first place back in ARR, told me to never come here for information. I tend to check Reddit, Discord and Twitter way before I check here. And the only reason I am here right now was boredom while waiting in queue. Didn't have much else to read. Felt like shutting down some of the lies I saw in this thread, but I'm pretty sure I've wasted my time. Oh well.

---

"I like new SMN" isn't really an unreliable or outrageous opinion, forum or not.

And taking an interest in conversations broadly is a good thing. Reading does not mean accepting. Actively challenging ideas you disagree with makes the forum better.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Madoka

The tl;dr is this. If you did not like old SMN for whatever reason, and do not main SMN currently. You probably enjoy playing it now. It's simple to play, easy to setup hotbars for and flashy and cool for something you decide to queue on with friends or run around doing hunts on when you want to not have to think.

If you played the old SMN, mained the old SMN, or main the new SMN you find out very quickly that the rotation is unrewarding, partially from being so easy that every fight can be approached the same way, but mainly from how simple it is. Your big flashy animations don't feel as good once you realize you're using them every 15 seconds and they aren't a huge potency boost over your flavor of ruin you were casting just before. And the more time you spend on it, the more boring it gets because there's nothing dynamic to fights, and since we have instant casts for at least every 50 of 60 seconds there's little need to worry about trying to finish a spell or being a greedyboi to dodge mechanics. Also we've ironically lost ruin II as the backup "oh crap i need to move a lot and burned my instants already" which is kind of funny to me.

I think samurai casts more than summoner right now, or at least as many times, which is hilarious.

---

I mained SMN in ARR and HW. It turned into a completely different thing after that, when the pets got taken away and replaced with a walking-particle-effect-DOT-with-latency.
I'm happy with how it plays now, but I'd also love to have a true pet class again some day, with the pet doing the damage and me keeping it alive (and buffed/the enemies debuffed).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Floortank

"I like new SMN" isn't really an unreliable or outrageous opinion, forum or not.

And taking an interest in conversations broadly is a good thing. Reading does not mean accepting. Actively challenging ideas you disagree with makes the forum better.

---

But "I liked old SMN" is treated as not only an outrageous opinion, but entirely invalid by a lot of people in this thread. The topics all boil down to this:

Player starts thread, unhappy with new SMN. Thread is flooded by people saying "But I like new SMN so you must be wrong" (paraphrasing) and then the thread devolves into a mess and eventually dies before another, almost identical thread, gets opened up. Rinse, repeat. It feels like the whole thing is treading water.

And the worst part is. Neither party is wrong or right. Gameplay is subjective. I liked old Summoner, I liked it a lot. But someone else might like new Summoner just as much. And thats fine. Congratulations, you've got a job you like in this game. The kicker for me though, is that I lost my job. Oh sure I'm still playing it. But for the most part its until 6.1 to see if they actually plan on doing anything with it. Then I might have to give up the Job I've spent the last 5 years playing. That stings.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vegituh

May I point you to this Lucky Bancho census report from April 2021 that says otherwise?

https://imgur.com/GofAisM


And in case you are wondering, Lucky Bancho is pretty much our most reliable source of player data due to the fact that Square Enix does not like releasing much of anything when it comes to playerbase data.


But no, from what I can tell through our available resources, SMN has rarely, if ever, been the least played class in the game. That is just hyperbole from online forum goers to explain why this new Summoner is okay.

---

That's... a census of people who had cleared E12S and gotten the weapon at the time. that is very emphatically not a population census. Are you seriously trying to beat people over the head with "the data, the data" while thinking there are only 5,100 people playing Samurai globally?

I'll go try and dig up the old info I'm remembering, in any case. It's difficult to parse real Summoner population numbers from simple metrics like "how many people have it at level cap" since that inevitably gives you the total SMN + SCH population instead of just the active SMN population.