Square Enix should really address dungeon loot drops...

I agree with this 100%. There's a level 60 set I wanted to grab for my WHM glamour. 40+ runs later, I gave up on completing it. And I didn't get the hat or chest until that very last run.

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Originally Posted by Izscha

Square enix.

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How do they benefit? If I'm unsyncing Swallowing Compass for UCoB boots. I've providing no queues for players trying to get through Stormblood dungeons and it takes maybe 5-10 to blitz through everything. So it isn't like they're getting extra sub time since I'll inevitably get what I want. Not to mention, I had no intention of unsubbing to begin with since I'd obviously be doing UCoB otherwise... why am I farming the gear.

There is literally zero benefit to this system. What further defeats your argument is they specifically changed Leveling dungeon drops to address this very same complaint. Likewise, Savage's page system is another RNG mitigator. Hell, the whole coffer system is intended to prevent players from getting useless drops.

You're trying to attach some arbitrary value to grinding a dungeon 150 times. There is nothing rewarding about this nor is making it so you're eventually guaranteed the drop after 12 runs (Leveling) or say 50 (Tokens) making it "too easy." A carrot on a stick only works if people feel they have a chance. One of the primary reasons PvP mounts never works is the reward simply wasn't worth both the time investment and the very narrow restrictions; with the odds far higher you'll put in all that time for nothing.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

How do they benefit? If I'm unsyncing Swallowing Compass for UCoB boots. I've providing no queues for players trying to get through Stormblood dungeons and it takes maybe 5-10 to blitz through everything. So it isn't like they're getting extra sub time since I'll inevitably get what I want. Not to mention, I had no intention of unsubbing to begin with since I'd obviously be doing UCoB otherwise... why am I farming the gear.

There is literally zero benefit to this system. What further defeats your argument is they specifically changed Leveling dungeon drops to address this very same complaint. Likewise, Savage's page system is another RNG mitigator. Hell, the whole coffer system is intended to prevent players from getting useless drops.

You're trying to attach some arbitrary value to grinding a dungeon 150 times. There is nothing rewarding about this nor is making it so you're eventually guaranteed the drop after 12 runs (Leveling) or say 50 (Tokens) making it "too easy." A carrot on a stick only works if people feel they have a chance. One of the primary reasons PvP mounts never works is the reward simply wasn't worth both the time investment and the very narrow restrictions; with the odds far higher you'll put in all that time for nothing.

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You're wasting time doing all this because of your greed and wanting to have X or Y, that's the whole point once again.
Does the grind ever stopped you to play ? Nope you're still here and still you'll do grind for stuff that you want -> It works.
I do not attach any value to it, are you even reading what i say or you just answer with something that basically means the same each single time ?
They're here to waste ur time with pixels, rng is good at that that's it it's part of the rules and the game you deal with it or you dont that's the difference between someone that truly wants something, and someone that will cry on forums that it's unfair and they're entilted to have those items for whatever reason.

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Originally Posted by Izscha

Does the grind ever stopped you to play ?

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Originally Posted by Izscha

They're here to waste ur time with pixels,

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Yes.
It does "stop me to play" because I am not here to waste MY time.

Make something too grindy and I probably won't do it.

Make something designed to waste my time and I def won't do it.

This just means the game effectively has less content for me, and I'm able to spend more time unsubbed the more content I just don't engage with.

And when I do force myself to engage with this, I, like you, don't have fun running a duty 150+ times. And I'm less likely and less inclined to stau subbed for long periods when I've just had no fun playing for days on end.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Yes.
It does "stop me to play" because I am not here to waste MY time.

Make something too grindy and I probably won't do it.

Make something designed to waste my time and I def won't do it.

This just means the game effectively has less content for me, and I'm able to spend more time unsubbed the more content I just don't engage with.

And when I do force myself to engage with this, I, like you, don't have fun running a duty 150+ times. And I'm less likely and less inclined to stau subbed for long periods when I've just had no fun playing for days on end.

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That's you and only you, while a lot will still do it because they really want that glamour. It works for some, it doesn't for others we all have a specific reason to play, if grind or collecting stuff isn't ur thing it will be to others.
It's not grindy to the point that majority stop will stop playing the game because some things are locked behind rng.
Time you dont spend on grind you'll waste on something else, rng and grinding isn't the whole point of the game, but a part of it for sure.
Even with tokens, if you need 99 extremes fights to get a mount that's still a huge time sink.

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Originally Posted by Izscha

That's you and only you,

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It literally isn't?
We have 9 pages of people ragging on this system. Even among the small group of players that use the forums I'm not alone.

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Originally Posted by Izscha

while a lot will still do it because they really want that glamour. It works for some, it doesn't for others we all have a specific reason to play, if grind or collecting stuff isn't ur thing it will be to others.

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And those people will still have plenty of things to grind even if SQEX adds in a system here similar to EX raid totem or alliance raid coin.

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Originally Posted by Izscha

It's not grindy to the point that majority stop will stop playing the game because some things are locked behind rng.
Time you dont spend on grind you'll waste on something else, rng and grinding isn't the whole point of the game, but a part of it for sure.

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It won't stop the majority from playing, but neither would only having X and Y coordinates on the map.
Z coordinates were added as a QOL to help make the experience smoother for players. I believe a change to the level cap dungeons loot drops would also be a good QOL.
The grind can still be there, just reign it in a bit.

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Originally Posted by Izscha

Even with tokens, if you need 99 extremes fights to get a mount that's still a huge time sink.

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That is a huge time sink, yes. But you go into it knowing there is a light at the end. Extending that kind of pity system to this content is exactly what many of us are asking for.

9 pages of what, 50 max players in this forum ?
Do you really think it means anything ?
It doesn't, at all that's one of those thread were just want to vent and they move on shortly after.
Even if each single one you complaining here stopped the game rn, it would not change anything to SE.

Feels like I'm watching a goalpost ballet in here.

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Originally Posted by Izscha

it would not change anything to SE.

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Specifically to this issue and it's future, who knows - wait and see I suppose. Speaking generally that strongly seems not true.

SE, recently (this year), had announced how their new gear and in general stat curves would effect the ability for players to do content unsynced (since players wouldn't grow in strength so quickly). There was some feedback to ensure the ability to go back to content like that was intact. In their recent communication to the players they detailed how there would be enhanced echo in applicable situations to ensure you can do such.

It's hard to say exactly what has been taken as feedback and what is coincidence, but there are way too many moments that line up to say they're all as such. I'm confident they do consider player feedback (and on this subject they do some of the desired things, to an extent, already - of course players are wanting for a generally larger more proactive safety net in this thread). Also on this subject before tokens it was asked to have them, looooooonnggg ago. Which they did add, and if I recall WoW did not have a similar as friendly system - one which they have slowly added to and made even more friendly.

"SE doesn't listen to you" I find false. And as for our representation of the game, it's difficult to know accurately given our own perspective (SE would know more, even where we're commenting from, maybe our ages, etc, if they wanted to go that deep), but it is entirely possible to extrapolate in game data and player feedback to make accurate models of prediction. It's not uncommon to determine fairly accurately info about the US from massive fractions of the population, of course the margin for error and what can be determined moving around a lot based on what you're doing lol - 4 people in a forum is not going to be super accurate (but it could still be very valuable feedback). Since they have hired people to translate player voice, and have in the past said they take feedback seriously (spending considerable time taking in feedback, paraphrasing Yoshida), I believe they consider the logic of player's desires not just the 'did it hit my minimum error margin in likes?'). Then of course add in their own desires, as it is their game even if they will lean by our feedback the end result will be their work (so add that into the mix else be like "why didn't they carbon copy my words" and it'd be because... along the lines of doesn't work / reasonability and importantly if it's going to be a game they want to make so they enjoy their own work and have pride for it).

Anyway, tl;dr- I press firm doubt and believe there is logical circumstances to provide massively high likelihood that it's a wrong interpretation (SE listens small and large feedback, and if it can fit / make sense to the team then do actually act upon it).

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Feels like I'm watching a goalpost ballet in here.

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Hey, a goalpost!

*punts ball through goalpost*

Um... do footballs normally scream as they fly through the air? I don't really play sports... >.>

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Feels like I'm watching a goalpost ballet in here.

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Right?
They're making me dizzy.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

snip

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Good points.
I wonder if someone out there working on feedback modeling. At the very least it could make for an interesting paper, though that might just be me finding devs minds fascinating.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

Hey, a goalpost!

*punts ball through goalpost*

Um... do footballs normally scream as they fly through the air? I don't really play sports... >.>

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[Add obvious Lalafell joke here]

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

Hey, a goalpost!

*punts ball through goalpost*

Um... do footballs normally scream as they fly through the air? I don't really play sports... >.>

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Is that post about me?
Or just a funny comment I'm thinking about too hard?

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Originally Posted by Maulclaw

You're talking about the one that can be bought from the armor vendor in Ishgard, right? Unfortunately, it's green by default and trying to dye it leads to... unsavory results. It just doesn't look anywhere as good as the Berserker set. If there are other variations, I'm not familiar with them.

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!!! This is one of my pet peeves too - It is delightful to get old dungeon/alliance raid sets as dyeable versions later down the road, but the new versions do not always dye so beautifully compared to the original.

My favourite example here is Demon Fending set. The original's details and colours are lovely and vibrant. Chromite clone makes it all flat and monotone and Forgiven is not any better.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Is that post about me?
Or just a funny comment I'm thinking about too hard?

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It could be both. Do you feel kicked around in an act of goalpost ballet?

No one has mentioned this, but will the removal of belts and the additions of coffers possibly help with this for when the next expansion hits?

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Originally Posted by Maulclaw

No one has mentioned this, but will the removal of belts and the additions of coffers possibly help with this for when the next expansion hits?

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The belts' removal will, but only proportionately (and that portion isn't much). Coffers, depending on their implementation, could be pretty huge, as even if it's limited to a single slot, it'd still constrain the gear drops to the chosen job's.

If they can't implement a glamour log because tech issues, then they could at least add reliable ways of acquiring pure rng gear.

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

If they can't implement a glamour log because tech issues, then they could at least add reliable ways of acquiring pure rng gear.

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But... that'd be sensible.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Coffers, depending on their implementation, could be pretty huge, as even if it's limited to a single slot, it'd still constrain the gear drops to the chosen job's.

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The only coffers I'm familiar with are the ones that have had a full set of gear in them, ala 2B. Is there a different form that's being talked about or am I thinking along the same lines you are?

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Originally Posted by Illmaeran

The only coffers I'm familiar with are the ones that have had a full set of gear in them, ala 2B. Is there a different form that's being talked about or am I thinking along the same lines you are?

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I think they mean akin to the coffers we now get from Savage raids.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

I think they mean akin to the coffers we now get from Savage raids.

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Neither, I suspect. Think, for instance, of the Blue Spirit Coffer (Necklace) ["Generates an ilvl X neckpiece appropriate to your current job"].

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Neither, I suspect. Think, for instance, of the Blue Spirit Coffer (Necklace) ["Generates an ilvl X neckpiece appropriate to your current job"].

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Wait... the bluspirit necklace coffer generates items of different iLVLs?
I thought, like an Edengrade necklave coffer, it gives you an edengrace necklace for whatever job you opened the coffer with.
I thought the bluespirit coffers similarly gave a bluespirit piece to the opening class, but you're telling me it also works off iLVL? How so?

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Wait... the bluspirit necklace coffer generates items of different iLVLs?
I thought, like an Edengrade necklave coffer, it gives you an edengrace necklace for whatever job you opened the coffer with.
I thought the bluespirit coffers similarly gave a bluespirit piece to the opening class, but you're telling me it also works off iLVL? How so?

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No, it'll always be the Bluespirit ilvl. I just didn't remember offhand what ilvl that was, so I put X.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

No, it'll always be the Bluespirit ilvl, I just didn't remember offhand what ilvl that was so I put X.

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Ah, gotcha.
Thanks for clearing that up for me.

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Originally Posted by Rowde

Oh... don't even get me started on accessories... As Yoshi-P has clearly presented himself as someone with predilection for jewelry... doing accessory glams post 60 is an incredible pain. There are tons of accessories I'd glam if I didn't need to have 5 versions of them to ensure I can use the appearance any time I wanted. I wish they'd either make old accessories "All Classes" or convert them all to one item with just main stats like some of the freebie accessories at lower level (Dawn Wristguards for example).

So say... Instead of their being 5 different Azurite Choker of ______, there's one Azurite Choker with +STR, +DEX, +INT, +MND, +VIT

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I rememeber writing a post with suggestion to add special Glamour Versions of 60+ accessories that won't have any stats at all for this very reason during one of LL Q&A questions gathering, but sadly it didn't make it into the section. This would be such a neat QoL, and should cost them practically nothing too (as model is already there anyway), but it seems like we are doomed to waste precious inventory and glamour dresser slots on dublicate accessories.

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Originally Posted by Rowde

Oh... don't even get me started on accessories... As Yoshi-P has clearly presented himself as someone with predilection for jewelry... doing accessory glams post 60 is an incredible pain. There are tons of accessories I'd glam if I didn't need to have 5 versions of them to ensure I can use the appearance any time I wanted. I wish they'd either make old accessories "All Classes" or convert them all to one item with just main stats like some of the freebie accessories at lower level (Dawn Wristguards for example).

So say... Instead of their being 5 different Azurite Choker of ______, there's one Azurite Choker with +STR, +DEX, +INT, +MND, +VIT

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Or a truly crazy suggestion (that's been around since ARR Beta): If the visual difference between two pieces of dungeon gear is no more than being immediate dyable would take care of, combine them (as has already been done for ARR's Striking/Scouting gear) and just make them immediately dyable.

(Such was itself a step towards the Yoshida approach over the earlier view that every job should use every stat, just in varying portions, and there should therefore be no outright restricted gear -- only an optimal balance equal to that job's type and place in a typical composition but also varying shapes a job could take according to alternate stat distributions; for instance, if you wanted a burstier, more fencing-based RDM, you went for more DEX and less INT, and if you wanted a more versatile and MP-sustainable or off-healer RDM, you'd take on more MND.)

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Or a truly crazy suggestion (that's been around since ARR Beta): If the visual difference between two pieces of dungeon gear is no more than being immediate dyable would take care of, combine them (as has already been done for ARR's Striking/Scouting gear)

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this isn't actually what was done. ARR's Striking gear (prior to gear added in 2.4) also has DEX due to Rogue and Ninja not being added until patch 2.4, hence why Ironworks, Dreadwyrm and WoD give separate Striking/Scouting gear, but Allagan/High Allagan, Syrcus Tower/LotA and the Soldiery sets (Gloam, Noct, etc) all have Striking gear which gives STR and DEX and is equippable by Rogue & Ninja

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Originally Posted by SnowVix

this isn't actually what was done. ARR's Striking gear (prior to gear added in 2.4) also has DEX due to Rogue and Ninja not being added until patch 2.4, hence why Ironworks, Dreadwyrm and WoD give separate Striking/Scouting gear, but Allagan/High Allagan, Syrcus Tower/LotA and the Soldiery sets (Gloam, Noct, etc) all have Striking gear which gives STR and DEX and is equippable by Rogue & Ninja

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Sorry, I should have specified ARR as prior to content added after its second-to-last major patch, rather than just "ARR". Foolish me. Even then, as you've just pointed out, they were separated in exactly 4 instances/tiers, and not the remaining 38, nor any crafted gear prior to the final tier.

Either way, I have to wonder what's so damn much stealthier about the purple chest-wrap or navy sleeveless tunic as compared to the brown chest-wrap or tan sleeveless tunic as to warrant the bloat in grind and inventory space for a piece used by the exact same role as categorized in content (merely Melee DPS) and with the exact same defensive value.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Sorry, I should have specified ARR as prior to content added after its second-to-last major patch, rather than just "ARR". Foolish me. Even then, as you've just pointed out, they were separated in exactly 4 instances/tiers, and not the remaining 38, nor any crafted gear prior to the final tier.

Either way, I have to wonder what's so damn much stealthier about the purple chest-wrap or navy sleeveless tunic as compared to the brown chest-wrap or tan sleeveless tunic as to warrant the bloat in grind and inventory space for a piece used by the exact same role as categorized in content (merely Melee DPS) and with the exact same defensive value.

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No, you still missed the point. The reason that Striking gear prior to 2.4 is equippable by Ninjas and provides both STR & DEX is that Ninja did not exist when the gear was released, and making a whole new set of gear for all of those sets for Ninja would have been a complete waste of development time. When 2.4 released, and with it Rogue & Ninja, Ninja got its own set as it was a melee (and thus couldn't use the ranged gear which had different stat priorities and defensive values at the time), but was dexterity-based for damage, and thus couldn't just use the standard melee DPS gear.

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Originally Posted by SnowVix

No, you still missed the point. The reason that Striking gear prior to 2.4 is equippable by Ninjas and provides both STR & DEX is that Ninja did not exist when the gear was released, and making a whole new set of gear for all of those sets for Ninja would have been a complete waste of development time. When 2.4 released, and with it Rogue & Ninja, Ninja got its own set as it was a melee (and thus couldn't use the ranged gear which had different stat priorities and defensive values at the time), but was dexterity-based for damage, and thus couldn't just use the standard melee DPS gear.

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I'm aware. I was there when the job was added. I am not arguing that they should have made separate items for NIN at the time. I am arguing that was no reason for Scouting to be consistently its own one-job armor class from 2.4 onward when it is aesthetically identical to Striking in a majority of sets.

Making it at all times its own set, regardless of any aesthetic features in question, is mere gear grind and inventory bloat for their own sake. Imagine, for instance, if RDM was forced to farm out its own "of Spellfencing" set for every step in ilvl... but it was still the exact same robes, merely redyed, 80% of the time, for the exact same content-categorized "Magical Ranged DPS" role.

If the difference in aesthetic actually exists, then by all means make the separate item. But if we're offering no more than a redye, then the only "contribution" is to player hours played (grinded for the additional, needlessly separate items) and retainer fees once the glamour dresser is maxed out.

(Would I say the same for the any, say, Gubal Library robes that share both the same skin and defense value? Yes. Definitely. Share the stats across them. It's not like that other stats can be of any use anyways.)