"There wasn't much we could really do with SCH"

What they're really saying is the 5.0 SCH design is so bad there's no real fixing it.
This is just a bottom tier job now friends--best to move on or just deal with playing something this basic.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Add to that it's getting a mobility ability, when mobility has been one of the things that's historically unbalanced FF14 healers so much.

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Weave space useful for movement and oGCDs and a +20% brief movement speed buff that itself uses up weave space are two very, very different types of mobility.

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

Pretty sure 90% of veteran healers have abandoned it as a main role, it's just that there are lots of unskilled casuals and new players to replace the veterans

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That’s me swapping after years of healer main too meele and having the option between all except drg feels so good. No more frustration when astro sucks at the start of this expansion. No more frustration when white mage doesn’t get anything this expansion after they did buff astro too be op as hell because it did suck for 1 or 2 raid tiers. Even reaper has a skill based group heal that has a potency from 100 for 15 seconds all 30 seconds if they don’t change it (it’s a 10 % health barrier that if broken does the 100 potency for 15 seconds , that is already more skill based healing then whm now has ). It’s so relaxing.

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

Oh, for sure. The number of terrible healers in this game is shocking.

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To be fair, if a Neurosurgeon got paid as much as a waiter, why would you bother with the former when the latter might be less fulfilling, but you still ultimately get the same result but for way less effort?

I mean seriously, it's kind of stupid how healers do as much damage as tanks even though the rotation is outright braindead outside of AST card shenanigans.

Why bother aligning your burst windows on GNB and hit 15 different keybinds when you can ultimately get the same dps from just going dia ->broil x12

Honestly, once I finish the MSQ in EW, I'm probably gonna take a long hiatus from the game, play something else for once. I've only been here since 4.1, nowhere near as long as some of y'all and I never got to experience the ups and downs of ARR and HW, but I would rather take my time elsewhere instead of watching the healer role get disrespected by the devs repeatedly. Yoshi-P himself outright admitting that they don't know what to do with Scholar and giving it essentially a combat peloton that mitigates damage instead of addressing any of Scholar's issues, while also not addressing the healer role's dps "rotation" of apply dot < spam nuke because "complexity bad" might as well be the final nail in the coffin.

I don't know, maybe things will get better in the future. Maybe I'll come back after EW and the devs will have acknowledged that mashing 1 key over and over until you have to refresh your dot or hardcast a heal isn't the most riveting form of gameplay. But somehow, I highly doubt that.

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

Why bother aligning your burst windows on GNB and hit 15 different keybinds when you can ultimately get the same dps from just going dia ->broil x12

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Lol. Are we seriously comparing tank to healers in this manner? Maybe when tanks have to heal an entire party and keep track of everyone's mechanics and execution of said mechanics, then we'll be able to make a fair comparison like that.

I like simple rotations tbh. Idk why you guys want things to be complex. The simpler a rotation is the more fun you can have in fights/learning fights. Instead of fighting with your rotation and kit + fighting vs the mechanics of the boss etc.

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

Why bother aligning your burst windows on GNB and hit 15 different keybinds when you can ultimately get the same dps from just going dia ->broil x12

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Perhaps because their rDPS is not the same?

A tank amounts to a huge amount of healer offensive potential effectively just by existing and being at the top of the enmity table, even when disregarding the one-shots (and therefore required rezzes) avoided. Once a healer has exhausted their oGCDs, any actual healing done comes at cost of offense. Imagine what portion of offensive GCDs would be open to you if you instead had no tank.

Now, I'll be the first to agree that tank's contribution should be largely siphoned back from passive means to active ones (DPS, especially as would have a decent skill ceiling, and timely, active defense), but it's not as if tanks are weak overall. The main issue is simply how much of their contribution is passive and therefore suffers badly diminishing returns so long as those extra CDs (across tanks past the first) are not required to avoid being one-shot.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

Lol. Are we seriously comparing tank to healers in this manner? Maybe when tanks have to heal an entire party and keep track of everyone's mechanics and execution of said mechanics, then we'll be able to make a fair comparison like that.

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Everyone has to keep track of mechanics, literally everyone who's not taking a nap on the floor.

The amount of healing you need to do in almost every given fight can be covered with just OGCD heals weaved between your spammable 1 button skill, and that's not if the other healer isn't freaking out and overhealing like crazy, which by that point you don't even need to heal.

If you're having a hard time keeping a party topped off while maintaining a 1 button rotation then that's fine and I won't judge you, but healing isn't as hard as you think it is and a lot of people in this thread have been healing since we've had to press cleric stance just to do DPS, and compared to the amount of awareness you needed back then, healing in 5.0 is basically an insult to your intelligence

This is assuming you know the fight perfectly. Also that you can adjust your rotation to each fight. I hate having to change my rotation for random fights. Of course I may be the minority but still devils advocate.

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

Everyone has to keep track of mechanics, literally everyone who's not taking a nap on the floor.

The amount of healing you need to do in almost every given fight can be covered with just OGCD heals weaved between your spammable 1 button skill, and that's not if the other healer isn't freaking out and overhealing like crazy, which by that point you don't even need to heal.

If you're having a hard time keeping a party topped off while maintaining a 1 button rotation then that's fine and I won't judge you, but healing isn't as hard as you think it is and a lot of people in this thread have been healing since we've had to press cleric stance just to do DPS, and compared to the amount of awareness you needed back then, healing in 5.0 is basically an insult to your intelligence

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It's not about it being hard. I've gotten behind the idea of a more complex rotation for healers many times in this very forum, because I'm bored. But saying that tanks and healers share the same amount of mental leeway is just incorrect. Or are you suggesting that healers could get the DPS rotation of GNB and that would be perfectly fine? lol

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Originally Posted by AFuzzyMu11in

This is assuming you know the fight perfectly. Also that you can adjust your rotation to each fight. I hate having to change my rotation for random fights. Of course I may be the minority but still devils advocate.

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That's pretty much why white mage existed as the "easier" option for beginner healers back in the days of cleric stance, though I can't speak for 2.0

Scholar was for the more advanced players and if people didn't want to worry about micromanaging pets and spreading shields/mitigating then white mage was there with raw heals to keep everyone topped off and a rotation that was simple enough to not be too distracting

But then they decided to make every healer job easy, and here we are

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Originally Posted by EaMett

It's not about it being hard. I've gotten behind the idea of a more complex rotation for healers many times in this very forum, because I'm bored. But saying that tanks and healers share the same amount of mental leeway is just incorrect. Or are you suggesting that healers should get the DPS rotation of GNB and that would be perfectly fine? lol

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Dunno, that sounds pretty amazing to me if they gave a healer a rotation that's at tank difficulty and just replaced the usual mitigation skills with healing options.

Healers have way too many healing tools and barely any opportunities to be able to use them all

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

Dunno, that sounds pretty amazing to me if they gave a healer a rotation that's at tank difficulty and just replaced the usual mitigation skills with healing options.

Healers have way too many healing tools and barely any opportunities to be able to use them all

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Hey, to be fair, I'd play it and probably enjoy it more than I do current healers. But, let's be honest, it would be overkill for the reasons I mentioned. With that said, some in-between would be amazing.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

Hey, to be fair, I'd play it and probably enjoy it more than I do current healers. But, let's be honest, it would be overkill for the reasons I mentioned. With that said, some in-between would be amazing.

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I'd kill for a healer with a kit that isn't easy to play, they're basically all the same difficulty except AST is more busy because you have to give people cards, but there's a pretty big difference between busy and complex since MCH is busy, but it's not complex like Ninja and its various mudras

Encounter design and how healers fit in it can be argued about until the cows come home. The community will always be divided in terms of the healer gameplay they would like to have. This does not change what a healer has to do in current content in order to optimize their kits. Healer kits are designed to accommodate varied levels of gameplay and difficulty with the content. When difficulty ranges from non-existent such as side quest mobs, all the way to Ultimate encounters, a large portion of their kits will range from greatly needed, to hardly used. This is the nature of the healer role, and I don't foresee this going away anytime soon.

Even with Sage, we saw some fancy stuff, and I assure a good portion of it will be/become redundant the less difficult the content is, or gets over time. The devs are adamant that healers will not have any kind of complex DPS rotation. However, this does not mean that they cannot give them more DPS skills. I believe that since a large portion of the healer community would like more variety when it comes to their damage output, this is the best way to reward the player for playing a healer the way that's intended.

As for SCH and their comment about being unsure. Another poster earlier said it was mistranslated, but one thing I know for sure is that Yoshi was constantly looking at the comments as his statements were being translated, and those comments were filled to the brim with negative SCH feedback after the trailer and the Sage reveal. His English reading sills are probably on par with my Japanese reading skills, but I am sure he saw the constant flow 'SCH', and the Japanese comments weren't much different, and it was meme after meme.

IOW, he is too smart to not know how most players are viewing SCH. And while it is all evidence to the contrary, I truly don't believe that he would be so spiteful of pet jobs as to deliberately punish the players who choose to play them. SMN is/was a pet job as well, and SMN mains griped and gave feedback for years before they finally took it in the direction of EW. They are rejoicing right now. Perhaps use this as well as their attention to other jobs, and the addition of Sage as a positive for potential changes in the future for SCH.

At this point they have to know that it needs to be reworked.

How long have been playing? If it's anything before 3.4, then you know that's not going to happen.

I'm willing to bet five dollars and a half-eaten sandwich that Energy Drain gets the Thanos treatment again.

"There was not much we could do about Scholar" ? You can start by giving us back our old fairy skills. Or, bring back Stoneskin, Protect, Cleric Stance, etc and make them exclusive to us. Something is better than nothing!

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Originally Posted by FoxCh40s

How long have been playing? If it's anything before 3.4, then you know that's not going to happen.

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If you're referring to me. I've been around since 3.1. What I know is never going to happen is getting back HW SCH, but I've known that for ages now, and never wanted 3.x SCH back. What I want is for this dev team to give SCH the same attention and treatment they've been giving other jobs. SCH needs to be reworked from the ground up in order to keep pace with the game.

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Originally Posted by Videra

I'm willing to bet five dollars and a half-eaten sandwich that Energy Drain gets the Thanos treatment again.

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Said this before:

Honestly if they added the MP gain to all the other aetherflow abilities and maybe buffed ruin 2 by 100 potency it wouldn't be so bad. Because as it is at 100 potency Energy Drain is pretty useless.

with the broil change energy drain will be a bigger gain than now since you wont need ruin ii to use it

They might just get rid of ruin 2 to make room for peloton lol

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Originally Posted by Videra

I'm willing to bet five dollars and a half-eaten sandwich that Energy Drain gets the Thanos treatment again.

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Sad that I thought this too given they explicitly said they nerfed Energy drain earlier in the year to try and incentivise Schs to spend their stacks on healing, I swear if they pull a 5.0 SCH move again by removing it only to get outcry to add it back then nerf it again.

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

Sad that I thought this too given they explicitly said they nerfed Energy drain earlier in the year to try and incentivise Schs to spend their stacks on healing, I swear if they pull a 5.0 SCH move again by removing it only to get outcry to add it back then nerf it again.

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And the same problem will happen: why would we need 3 stacks if there's one aoe, maybe two per minute. That's probably the hardest thing to understand for me, how do people have a hard time healing a dungeon boss or in trials/nm: there's an aoe doing 50% of your hp every 60 seconds, a tankbuster every few minutes and maybe a random mechanic that will target you while you only need like 1 or 2 heal to deal with that damage. That's 5 seconds of cast time if you use GCD's while there's barely any damage for a minute.

And then I saw someone mention that you have to be careful of mechanics for everyone, it's not your job? When a mechanic happen/raidwide happen, you look at the hp bars, heal if needed, go back to the boss, there's like nothing random in this game, you can literally tunnel vision the boss until you see a cast bar every 30 seconds.

The same way you don't need to "know" the boss to be comfortable on it, the very 2 first mechanics are generally a tank buster then a raidwide, in general after 20 seconds (they mostly never put anything before the barrier close, so 15 seconds in), then like 10 seconds later the other. Followed by a mechanic that you probably have already seen in the past 15 seconds later, you resolve it. There'll probably have a stack or a spread somewhere around there, then back to the tank buster/raidwide thing a bit after, and that's basically every dungeons/trial. There will be other mechanics, but when you see a castbar you just pay attention, what it does is generally written in it like if I see "side beam" I wont stand on his sides. Sometimes you'll fail but that happens? Point is you never have to have done a fight before to be comfortable healing/dpsing on it to a good extent in normal modes.

On another note; the new scholar spell is really just a reskinned sprint as it doesnt even stack with it, the person saying it was just a last minute thing is probably right XD

Sorry, haven't read all posts before mine, but anyway, I have just a message to SE dev team :
At this point, just delete the scholar job from the game, and invest that new time into something usefull please.

Took time to read some posts :

SCH weave capability : ehm ? weaving what ? ogcd with between 30 to 120s cooldown ? most of them need aetherflow and you can have 3 per minute. oh, and we had ruin2 and bio to weave.
Some of you seems to think EW fights could be oriented to something who will make the buff speed 'usefull/mandatory' ? I hope Im missunderstanding that because if they are doing so, that mean some fight will requiere SCH job and sorry, but thats really stupid to force people playing a specific job and im not talking about hardcore players who just think optimisation. If i cant play the job i want in any content, 'RPG' part as nothing to do in FF14 being called MMORPG.

We have lost dots, spread, usefull fairy skills, sch getting nerfed at every expac where the power of the SCH was shown by 'skilled' players who was able to use the toolkit as best use. We got some powerfull skill that can be used only in some extremely rare occasion (thinking about deployments tactics and his 10y range only), we need to care about the party range, not only around us, but our fairy.
In all of that, im seeing some of you think that mov speed buff + mitigation could be usefull while at least half players can't even move under a sacred soil to mitigate dmg and receive heal with 78 passive just make me laughs. To me, being good sch requiere a minimum brain with a team with a minimum brain.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

It's not about it being hard. I've gotten behind the idea of a more complex rotation for healers many times in this very forum, because I'm bored. But saying that tanks and healers share the same amount of mental leeway is just incorrect. Or are you suggesting that healers could get the DPS rotation of GNB and that would be perfectly fine? lol

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I am, yes.

Tanks mitigate by pressing an oGCD cooldown in response to a scripted raidwide/tankbuster.

Healers heal by pressing an oGCD cooldown in response to a scripted raidwide/tankbuster.

How do these differ in any meaningful way? GNB proves that tanks can handle a medium-complexity DPS rotation while also using defensive CDs on-script, positioning the boss, and having the situational awareness to handle tank swaps or shared 'busters. So why, then, do so many people assume that healers are all too thtooooooopid to do the same?

Healing is not exactly a galaxy-brain task in this game. Use oGCDs on-script. If somebody flubbed one of those increasingly-rare mechanics that doesn't instantly one-shot them, give them a Doom, or wipe the party, toss them a couple GCD heals. Spam an AoE heal on the rare occasion that there's a healing check (e.g. after Construct 8's math quiz). Healers could easily be given a GNB-level rotation and still do their jobs. Anybody who thinks it's too hard can just ignore it, which they probably already do, since every time this topic comes up, the Sylphies come out of the woodwork to whine that even pressing 1 over and over is too difficult for them.

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Originally Posted by Punslinger

How do these differ in any meaningful way? GNB proves that tanks can handle a medium-complexity DPS rotation while also using defensive CDs on-script, positioning the boss, and having the situational awareness to handle tank swaps or shared 'busters. So why, then, do so many people assume that healers are all too thtooooooopid to do the same?

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Gunbreaker's rotation is on autopilot.

Almost all the complexity derived from it is due to frequent requirement of melee range and dealing with mechanics / boss positioning that forces you out of it, or working around jump timers where you can take advantage of holding buffs but not combos since you would lose a use of one but not the other.

Giving some context here, if you gave Scholar a similar rotation to gunbreaker, the basic would look like this.

Broil - Broil - Broil - Big Broil 1 / ED / BFED - Big Broil 2 / ED - Big Broil 3 - ED - Broil - Broil - Broil - Broil - Broil - Dump - Repeat.

Which I must admit is a marginal improvement, but I don't think it would have any lasting entertainment beyond the first few weeks.

Idk why you guys hate spamming broil. That shit is fun to me. You get to spend your focus on the fight and immersion rather than not messing up a rotation.

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Originally Posted by AFuzzyMu11in

Idk why you guys hate spamming broil. That shit is fun to me. You get to spend your focus on the fight and immersion rather than not messing up a rotation.

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I completely agree and this is the exact reason I main tanks over melee DPS.
I much prefer to focus on the content I'm running rather than on managing the finer points of my rotation.

The endless Broils may be taking it a bit too far though...

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Originally Posted by AFuzzyMu11in

Idk why you guys hate spamming broil. That shit is fun to me. You get to spend your focus on the fight and immersion rather than not messing up a rotation.

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This is bar none the attitude the devs would prefer everyone to have, no ambition, no critical thought, and unthreatening like a child’s pacifier. As I’ve said with DRK and MCH hitting one button isn’t fun.

when in X.0 they'll replace all active skills with passive traits you'll still have people defending it "pressing buttons was so easy anyway, not pressing anything isn't actually any different" / "i really like how you can only do mechanics in a fight" / "data shows many people still play healers, so nothing wrong with them"

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Originally Posted by AFuzzyMu11in

Idk why you guys hate spamming broil. That shit is fun to me. You get to spend your focus on the fight and immersion rather than not messing up a rotation.

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And then it strictly becomes a 10 minutes qte dance, which is what it is for healers at the moment. Just press your off gcd heals when damage is coming and broil away the rest of the time.

There's no sense of job/class gameplay and that's the issue. In fact, because of that we're basically missing half the content since we don't have to juggle with full rotations while playing the mechanics.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

I completely agree and this is the exact reason I main tanks over melee DPS.
I much prefer to focus on the content I'm running rather than on managing the finer points of my rotation.

The endless Broils may be taking it a bit too far though...

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Well there was no need to fine tune your scholar's rotation in the past either. It was actually pretty simple and engaging.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

I completely agree and this is the exact reason I main tanks over melee DPS.
I much prefer to focus on the content I'm running rather than on managing the finer points of my rotation.

The endless Broils may be taking it a bit too far though...

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We should give it a chance broil has been fun thus far. I especially love how impactful it feels when you cast it and it hits an enemy. It has a nice feel.

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Originally Posted by Jirah

This is bar none the attitude the devs would prefer everyone to have, no ambition, no critical thought, and unthreatening like a child’s pacifier. As I’ve said with DRK and MCH hitting one button isn’t fun.

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Your critical thought comes from how to play the fight.

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Originally Posted by Teno

And then it strictly becomes a 10 minutes qte dance, which is what it is for healers at the moment. Just press your off gcd heals when damage is coming and broil away the rest of the time.

There's no sense of job/class gameplay and that's the issue. In fact, because of that we're basically missing half the content since we don't have to juggle with full rotations while playing the mechanics.



Well there was no need to fine tune your scholar's rotation in the past either. It was actually pretty simple and engaging.

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I love the dance though. That’s the most engaging part for me. Watching everyone move like it’s a show and dodge mechanics or position etc.

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Originally Posted by AFuzzyMu11in

Your critical thought comes from how to play the fight.

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Do you even do any difficult content? you talk about how fights are so are engaging as a healer but do you even do it?

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Originally Posted by Acece

Do you even do any difficult content? you talk about how fights are so are engaging as a healer but do you even do it?

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I do. And I plan on clearing every savage in 6.0 etc for the gear solely. I enjoy the mechanics of fights not my rotation aka button mashing multiple skills for optimal dps.

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Originally Posted by AFuzzyMu11in

I do. And I plan on clearing every savage in 6.0 etc for the gear solely. I enjoy the mechanics of fights not my rotation aka button mashing multiple skills for optimal dps.

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Damn ok, could you post some logs so we can confirm it.

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Originally Posted by Acece

Do you even do any difficult content? you talk about how fights are so are engaging as a healer but do you even do it?

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I don't even think that question needs an answer just based on their attitude. If you've ever wondered what kind of person immediately leaves Alliance Raid Roulette when they realize it's Dun Scaith, you're looking at them.