Adventurer in need

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Yeah they were.
WHM has always been one of the more popular jobs, and a quick look at previous censuses doesn't show a spike in WHMs in ShB disproportionate to the general increase all classes got.

Here are the old censuses for your reference:
(ShB launched July 2nd 2019)
https://ffxivcensus.com/list/index.html

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Desirability? Dare I say meta? We've always been strong healing powerhouses, but weren't dps powerhouses before. We were far outclassed by SCH and AST there and both those classes had more utility. SE had to adjust Assize, make Holy not limited in number of mobs, and give us Thin Air before we got competitive in the dps department. Our lily mechanic was one of the most useless systems when it first came out, because it depended on abilities we hardly ever used. Then that got adjusted and we got the massively powerful Blood Lily. We're honestly rather OP and I've hoped SE would either dial us back or boost SCH and AST past us again.

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Originally Posted by Imora

I don't want a rotation. I want unpredictable damage to heal. Right now you can memorize and preplan all the big damage spikes in the game.

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Both you and Talera are basically asking for the game overall to increase in difficulty.

Awhile back, people in general would start threads for wanting EX Trials and Coil to have a roulette. Others would ask for our ilevels to be reduced to fight off the power creep that makes everything too easy. I myself was all for content to be made harder or to have a steeper increase of difficulty for the game that will allow everyone to naturally “get gud “. However…

All that got met with people pointing our attentions to the Tales of Duty Finder thread. The amount of times people point out the healers who refuse to learn more than just cure 1 and 2. Other healers who literally ignore their advice. Then their are the ones that blow their whole heal kit and still let a whole party die because they focused only on a tank and AoE healed in a corner (something that personally happened to me). Now I’m not going to sit here and say suddenly half the players base is terrible but I would not be shocked at the increase calls for something to be nerfed to the ground simply because they can’t beat it. Thunder God and Pharos are prime examples. Even Aurum got tweaked. SE will never make casual content heal intensive for all 20 heal spells to be of use.

That’s why people want to see at least job diversity happening within the roles. I myself would much prefer to have an expanded DPS kit. But I don’t need all three healers that way, just SCH. At least, give back all of our lost DOT. Other’s would like to be able to buff and heal instead like AST used to be. At least this way, different types of healer mains can still enjoy the game with all the small amount of difficulty increase that we always get. My hopes for higher difficulty for constant surprise damage is practically nonexistent and I would rather see an overhaul of play style for healer than hope for a moment of higher difficulty that will be obsolete either by a nerf or ilevel.

So here's the thing. If you play dps and die, the rest of the group survives and lives on. If you play tank and die, your group dies unless the healer can rez you fast enough. If you play healer and die, the group dies unless your tank is just really lucky, or you have a caster with a resurrect.

The fear of messing up is what prevents me from playing tank/healer. Although now that I have unlocked the Grand Company dungeon thing with the recruits, I may use them as my training dummies for healing.

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Originally Posted by KitKatnip

So here's the thing. If you play dps and die, the rest of the group survives and lives on. If you play tank and die, your group dies unless the healer can rez you fast enough. If you play healer and die, the group dies unless your tank is just really lucky, or you have a caster with a resurrect.

The fear of messing up is what prevents me from playing tank/healer. Although now that I have unlocked the Grand Company dungeon thing with the recruits, I may use them as my training dummies for healing.

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I have 3 chars for RP purpos and one of them is a tank. Now before I contineue with this I will say I have next to no experince as a tank in wow I was mainly DPS Hunter to be exact. But the easest thing in this game is to be a tank in my opinion I dont know how manny times I died with my Archer but only ones have I died as a tank in a dungeon and that was yesterday when I tanked as a warrior for the first time. but here is the truth up till now I used one skill as a tank in a dungeon and thats my aoe attack and allways kept aggro now as lvl 40+ i use 3 skills 2 of witch are cd's that I use about ones every min then I spam my aoe thats how easy it is to be a tank. now I do not know if that will shange when I become a DK but I will learn and with this great comunity that do NOTR give me shit for doing a misstake I beleve this is the best comunity to learn from just keep an eye on the chat while spaming your only skill you need and you will be fine. ps yes it is a lot harder t be DPS class especialy mage I got one of those to

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Originally Posted by KitKatnip

So here's the thing. If you play dps and die, the rest of the group survives and lives on. If you play tank and die, your group dies unless the healer can rez you fast enough. If you play healer and die, the group dies unless your tank is just really lucky, or you have a caster with a resurrect.

The fear of messing up is what prevents me from playing tank/healer. Although now that I have unlocked the Grand Company dungeon thing with the recruits, I may use them as my training dummies for healing.

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thats the awesome part about healing though, keeps you on your toes and you actually have to pay attention

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Originally Posted by Aron73

I have 3 chars for RP purpos and one of them is a tank. Now before I contineue with this I will say I have next to no experince as a tank in wow I was mainly DPS Hunter to be exact. But the easest thing in this game is to be a tank in my opinion I dont know how manny times I died with my Archer but only ones have I died as a tank in a dungeon and that was yesterday when I tanked as a warrior for the first time. but here is the truth up till now I used one skill as a tank in a dungeon and thats my aoe attack and allways kept aggro now as lvl 40+ i use 3 skills 2 of witch are cd's that I use about ones every min then I spam my aoe thats how easy it is to be a tank. now I do not know if that will shange when I become a DK but I will learn and with this great comunity that do NOTR give me shit for doing a misstake I beleve this is the best comunity to learn from just keep an eye on the chat while spaming your only skill you need and you will be fine. ps yes it is a lot harder t be DPS class especialy mage I got one of those to

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You’re not wrong in essence. Mechanically tanks are really easy to play, but the pressure/fear of screwing up or “leading” the group is the big turnoff. If the tank dies several times to a new mechanic, it could cause a huge problem (especially if it’s a raid like copied factory). Especially if one doesn’t know the mechanics and doesn’t study ahead about what to do.

I would also agree that (for me) BLM is the hardest job to play. Again not because of any major difficulty in the mechanics..but because you have to remember 2 or 3 different rotations based on your level and have a good sense of timing since you have to plant in place to cast a potentially lengthy spell.

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Originally Posted by KitKatnip

So here's the thing. If you play dps and die, the rest of the group survives and lives on. If you play tank and die, your group dies unless the healer can rez you fast enough. If you play healer and die, the group dies unless your tank is just really lucky, or you have a caster with a resurrect.

The fear of messing up is what prevents me from playing tank/healer. Although now that I have unlocked the Grand Company dungeon thing with the recruits, I may use them as my training dummies for healing.

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Eh, when you try something new you'll always be scared initially, but you'll get used to it and wonder what you were even scared of in the first place.

If you're really scared of messing up, I suggest doing trials since you'll have another healer in case you mess up, but healing honestly isn't very difficult nowadays unless you're healing relevant savage/ultimate content

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Desirability? Dare I say meta? We've always been strong healing powerhouses, but weren't dps powerhouses before. We were far outclassed by SCH and AST there and both those classes had more utility. SE had to adjust Assize, make Holy not limited in number of mobs, and give us Thin Air before we got competitive in the dps department. Our lily mechanic was one of the most useless systems when it first came out, because it depended on abilities we hardly ever used. Then that got adjusted and we got the massively powerful Blood Lily. We're honestly rather OP and I've hoped SE would either dial us back or boost SCH and AST past us again.

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Huh?
You claimed WHM wasn't as popular before.
I provided data showing it was as popular before.
Now you're talking about holy and changes to assize and DPS and I don't understand how any of it is working off of what I contributed.

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Originally Posted by AngeliouxRein

Both you and Talera are basically asking for the game overall to increase in difficulty.

Awhile back, people in general would start threads for wanting EX Trials and Coil to have a roulette. Others would ask for our ilevels to be reduced to fight off the power creep that makes everything too easy. I myself was all for content to be made harder or to have a steeper increase of difficulty for the game that will allow everyone to naturally “get gud “. However…

All that got met with people pointing our attentions to the Tales of Duty Finder thread. The amount of times people point out the healers who refuse to learn more than just cure 1 and 2. Other healers who literally ignore their advice. Then their are the ones that blow their whole heal kit and still let a whole party die because they focused only on a tank and AoE healed in a corner (something that personally happened to me). Now I’m not going to sit here and say suddenly half the players base is terrible but I would not be shocked at the increase calls for something to be nerfed to the ground simply because they can’t beat it. Thunder God and Pharos are prime examples. Even Aurum got tweaked. SE will never make casual content heal intensive for all 20 heal spells to be of use.

That’s why people want to see at least job diversity happening within the roles. I myself would much prefer to have an expanded DPS kit. But I don’t need all three healers that way, just SCH. At least, give back all of our lost DOT. Other’s would like to be able to buff and heal instead like AST used to be. At least this way, different types of healer mains can still enjoy the game with all the small amount of difficulty increase that we always get. My hopes for higher difficulty for constant surprise damage is practically nonexistent and I would rather see an overhaul of play style for healer than hope for a moment of higher difficulty that will be obsolete either by a nerf or ilevel.

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Doesn't have to be difficult, just more spontaneous. Unpredictable. That doesn't equate difficulty, it equates not being able to zone out while hitting a single button.

And not everything needs a roulette. I remember those arguments. I still disagree with them. I play SCH and I don't want a DPS kit. if I want to play DoT DPS, I'll switch to summoner. I played SCH back in HW too and hated the DPS part of it. Was too complex for my tastes, with micromanaging the fairy and DoT juggling. Was crap and I don't want it back.

Btw, a large majority of the player base being terrible at the game isn't unique to FFXIV. I don't run matched content in WoW for the exact same reason.

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Originally Posted by AngeliouxRein

Both you and Talera are basically asking for the game overall to increase in difficulty.

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Not necessarily. We could have to maintain things like damage shields or other buffs. We could have more debuffs. We'll never get crowd control back but we could edge toward that way a little. Still the same level we have now, but just different support-focused abilities. I dps as a healer, but not because I want to. SE doesn't give us much of anything else to do. It's one reason I love pear-shaped groups the best. Smooth groups put me to sleep.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Huh?
You claimed WHM wasn't as popular before.
I provided data showing it was as popular before.
Now you're talking about holy and changes to assize and DPS and I don't understand how any of it is working off of what I contributed.

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Because it was an issue of word choice. My "popular" meant desired and useful to groups, not just played, which is why I clarified that point.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Because it was an issue of word choice. My "popular" meant desired and useful to groups, not just played, which is why I clarified that point.

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Ah, I misunderstood (twice it seems).
Thanks for the clarification.

In today's age its not worth it. The chance of getting a extremely undergeared or entry gear level dps is high which causes a slower than usual run.

I really only do trial roulette and raid roulette as those usually are guaranteed first time players so I can get retries for wonderous tales.

I have been waiting in a raid queue for 22 minutes, because we need dps. if only there were some way to entice people to play dps.

seriously, 3 tanks and 6 healers just hanging about waiting... if only people played dps these days....

basically, it happens to everyone in everything, generally sure, people arent playing or wanting to play healers and tanks with randoms, but it also works the other way

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

I have been waiting in a raid queue for 22 minutes, because we need dps. if only there were some way to entice people to play dps.

seriously, 3 tanks and 6 healers just hanging about waiting... if only people played dps these days....

basically, it happens to everyone in everything, generally sure, people arent playing or wanting to play healers and tanks with randoms, but it also works the other way

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Wow, this is the first time I hear someone complaining about the lack of DPS for dungeon/raids! It has not escaped anyone that I'm a former WoW player, and usually, we get to wait for Tanks and healers in dungeons/raids because no one wish to lvl them because of the time it takes, mainly for...Yea, you guessed it, low DPS.

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Originally Posted by Aron73

Wow, this is the first time I hear someone complaining about the lack of DPS for dungeon/raids! It has not escaped anyone that I'm a former WoW player, and usually, we get to wait for Tanks and healers in dungeons/raids because no one wish to lvl them because of the time it takes, mainly for...Yea, you guessed it, low DPS.

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Normal raid and alliance raid are often in need of dps.

i love learning new encounters as tank and i never had trouble with ppl being mad
and if they do get mad, eh they can just deal w it

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

I have been waiting in a raid queue for 22 minutes, because we need dps. if only there were some way to entice people to play dps.

seriously, 3 tanks and 6 healers just hanging about waiting... if only people played dps these days....

basically, it happens to everyone in everything, generally sure, people arent playing or wanting to play healers and tanks with randoms, but it also works the other way

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I mean the time of this post would be like 10pm (EST) on a Wednesday night. I don’t really see the issue, especially if you are queuing for a raid at the end of the expansion’s lifecycle.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

I mean the time of this post would be like 10pm (EST) on a Wednesday night. I don’t really see the issue, especially if you are queuing for a raid at the end of the expansion’s lifecycle.

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technicality! (actually was worse, was around 10 pm Pacific)

and yes, I know. I am just pointing out however, that typically for raids, its not the tanks and healers that are short, its the dps.

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Originally Posted by Fyrebrand

I have to disagree there. I love healing, I feel quite comfortable in that role, and I don't feel like "lack of pressure" equates to fun. On the contrary, the sense of responsibility is exhilarating and makes me feel important. I prefer having a more holistic perspective of my party and how everybody is doing, and having to improvise on the fly, rather than succumbing to a preordained DPS "rotation." Plus, it feels good to be able to lend a safety net to newbies who are struggling with mechanics. I just feel compelled to take care of all my little dungeon babies!

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Neither of you are wrong, but the point is that most people don't enjoy the responsibility. Some people like you do. The biggest mistake that many game companies make is to assume that the preferences of a handful of avid fans on their game forums represent the preferences of the entire player base. The fact that you (and I, for that matter) get a rush out of having the capability to act as a safety net for struggling players doesn't change the fact that most players just want to put out big numbers and kill things without any sense of pressure or responsibility.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Desirability? Dare I say meta? We've always been strong healing powerhouses, but weren't dps powerhouses before. We were far outclassed by SCH and AST there and both those classes had more utility. SE had to adjust Assize, make Holy not limited in number of mobs, and give us Thin Air before we got competitive in the dps department. Our lily mechanic was one of the most useless systems when it first came out, because it depended on abilities we hardly ever used. Then that got adjusted and we got the massively powerful Blood Lily. We're honestly rather OP and I've hoped SE would either dial us back or boost SCH and AST past us again.

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WHM needs Spiritual Ray, Flood and Tornado added to its DPS kit with a huge potency increase so that we can get the real feel of being a mage, not some feeble conjurer that is still casting Medica II in savage. WHM is far from being OP.

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Originally Posted by Roeshel

WHM needs Spiritual Ray, Flood and Tornado added to its DPS kit with a huge potency increase so that we can get the real feel of being a mage, not some feeble conjurer that is still casting Medica II in savage. WHM is far from being OP.

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WHM does not need to be a dps class.

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

WHM does not need to be a dps class.

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It already is, together with every other role.

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Originally Posted by Roeshel

It already is, together with every other role.

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I meant yes, we can do dps, we do not need to become a primary dps class that heals

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

I meant yes, we can do dps, we do not need to become a primary dps class that heals

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Tanks can only do their job by dpsing which makes them a primary dps class that tanks. The new tank job has the most interesting rotation from all tanks because of that. It would be the same with sage unless they really take their time to give each healer interesting DPS buttons. We already are a primary dps class that heals. Not only because there is nothing to heal but what needs to be healed can be covered with oGCDs.

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

WHM does not need to be a dps class.

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If they aren't going to make fights in this game more healing intensive, then it'd be nice to have a little more variety with the dps portion of their kit.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

If they aren't going to make fights in this game more healing intensive, then it'd be nice to have a little more variety with the dps portion of their kit.

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Also, giving WHM three more Damaging spells won't turn it into a DPS. If you think more buttons will change a job's primary function, then these last two years of dumbed down one button spam downtime have taught you nothing.

If you want healers to heal more, give us situations where we actually need to use our heals rather than take away non-healing relates abilities.

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

Also, giving WHM three more Damaging spells won't turn it into a DPS. If you think more buttons will change a job's primary function, then these last two years of dumbed down one button spam downtime have taught you nothing.

If you want healers to heal more, give us situations where we actually need to use our heals rather than take away non-healing relates abilities.

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Catching back up on this after a while, and I really want to add that I agree with this. It's a big part of why I swapped from healing primarily to tanking. Most of a tank's kit is damage rotations. The animations are fun, putting out damage is fun, but I'm still tanking. I still have unique tank abilities. The healing in this game just isn't intensive. There is almost no surprise damage. And there is what feels like an awful lot of downtime between healing. Especially in full party content. Savage calls for a bit more but it's even more predictable and pattern based. Everything is balanced on the assumption that healers will be chucking in damage. And one button DPSing has gotten stale. I really want either more healing, or more dps options. Even just a three step combo to spice things up. Healing is boring in this game as is.

odd when i was leveling my other tanks and healers for all 80 the tank and healer que was massive i like number 74 in line :D on omega maybe all the wow refugees decided to be tank and healers and that's where the massive que came from considering it was always instant que before