Pronouns???

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Originally Posted by MPK

Not my fault you can't read between the lines

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I can read between lines; but there's still no need to make fun. I don't get your point.

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Originally Posted by MPK

Well apache does have a point

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They really don't.

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Originally Posted by Coletergeist

What point are they making with their comments? Other than being rude and mocking the community? If they want to have a say in something like this, they should be more informative.

But of course that logic is beyond you.

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I am amazed they haven't been banned yet considering I was banned for saying '' wtf is wrong with you '' to someone who was being racist for two weeks.

Like you can be blatantly Transphobic etc all you want, so long as you don't specifically say anything rude directly aimed at someone apparently.

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Originally Posted by MPK

Apache's point was pretty clear.

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Since I can't seem to read between lines (oops?) then mind explaining then?

I think humour is in itself quite subjective. It wasn't so long ago that many comedy shows used to make fun of pretty much everybody from all sorts of different backgrounds and walks of life. I know a number of British TV shows that did just that.

The policing of humour, to me, is much along the same lines of someone saying that because they don't like eating meat everybody else should cease to do it as well.

I find crude humour to be crude and dislike it. With that said, I've never felt inclined to police what other people find funny and so I'd maybe cringe and then shrug and go about my day as normal.

Of course, with the terms of service being written the way that they are it's a gamble to joke about anything around these parts - so for that reason, I'd urge others not to do so.

As someone who’s transmasc myself, but prefers the aesthetics of female avatars ingame, I wouldnt mind something like this being added - but I also understand and agree that it would take a while to implement and shouldnt be considered a priority.

For anyone confused- when a cismale wears makeup, theyre still a man. When a cisfemale cosplays as a male character for a convention, theyre still female. It doesnt change how they internally identify with their gender, and it doesnt mean they wish to transition just because they chose to outwardly express their gender differently. Similarly, if someone is trans, the gender they identify as isnt going to change just because they wish to wear makeup or skirts, or upkeep a beard or something. Their gender is still their gender, they just choose to express themselves differently.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I think humour is in itself quite subjective. It wasn't so long ago that many comedy shows used to make fun of pretty much everybody from all sorts of different backgrounds and walks of life. I know a number of British TV shows that did just that.

The policing of humour, to me, is much along the same lines of someone saying that because they don't like eating meat everybody else should cease to do it as well.

I find crude humour to be crude and dislike it. With that said, I've never felt inclined to police what other people find funny and so I'd maybe cringe and then shrug and go about my day as normal.

Of course, with the terms of service being written the way that they are it's a gamble to joke about anything around these parts - so for that reason, I'd urge others not to do so.

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There is a difference between jokes involving racism that Dave Chappelle makes and George Carlin made and between essentially just saying the n-word and laughing at it for example.
When you just repeat something like that over and over again and laugh at it then at some point I have to question why you think it's funny, there's no actual clever joke there.

Usually when there is no actual thought behind the joke like the '' apache helicopter '' jokes it just boils down to the person being Transphobic and that's why they think it's funny.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I think humour is in itself quite subjective. It wasn't so long ago that many comedy shows used to make fun of pretty much everybody from all sorts of different backgrounds and walks of life. I know a number of British TV shows that did just that.

The policing of humour, to me, is much along the same lines of someone saying that because they don't like eating meat everybody else should cease to do it as well.

I find crude humour to be crude and dislike it. With that said, I've never felt inclined to police what other people find funny and so I'd maybe cringe and then shrug and go about my day as normal.

Of course, with the terms of service being written the way that they are it's a gamble to joke about anything around these parts - so for that reason, I'd urge others not to do so.

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Reposting a bad joke from a decade ago isn't funny. I mean, if you're a middle schooler, maybe.

Honestly, just grow a pair and use a slur at that point.

Other people are free to believe as much, I don't leap to such conclusions myself however. Some of the most pleasant people I've ever met swear like sailors and make crude jokes, yet if you ever need anything they're the first to step up and offer help.

Meanwhile, most of the people I've met who are quick to police the thoughts and opinions of others are among the first to drive a dagger through my back the moment it becomes advantageous to do so. Or they simply refuse to step up and offer actual aid when the opportunity presents itself.

Perhaps others have had different experiences, though.

Humans are nuanced beings and I think society needs to reflect that on many fronts.

I don't want to be the one to tell you guys, but do you realize that you are arguing with a troll and his alts? It's ridiculous how you bite the baits

Personally I don't think this should be added because it's not feasible to do at this point in the game's life. However....

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Originally Posted by Nitelancer

I think something that you are not considering is that it gives players less choice about their identity.

First, players would be restricted to the list that the game provides them rather them being free to say their identity is whatever they want whenever they want.

Second, players may want to change their identity later on. Do they need to buy fantasia and redo character creation in order to do so?

Thirdly, players may have to make a choice at character creation that they are not yet comfortable making. It adds a needless tension to character creation. The choices are already hard enough.

If you want, you can just add your pronouns to your character's search comment. It's a simple solution that gives all players more freedom.

Another thing to consider is that no other players are interested in IRL identity for group content. They are interested in your ability to play, and presenting this information to them when there is no need to do so is a needless distraction.

Personally, I believe transgenderism is a mental illness. But, I do not believe that trans and other types should be treated unkind; everyone should be treated kind and be respected if they show themselves to be kind and respectable in turn. But, I am not in support in promoting these types of practices as if it were something healthy for people. It is not.

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1. How is this LESS choice than the binary male/female options tied to your character gender as is?

2. If this was theoretically added, just make it editable at the aesthtician for simplicity's sake.

3. They could go with the default for their character gender in such a case, the same as it is now.

4. I mean sure yeah you can add them to your search info but this thread is more about how the game npcs treat you not other players.

5. Again this is more for how the npcs and story address the character not other players, so this is irrelevant.

6. Yikes.gif

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Originally Posted by MPK

Well apache does have a point

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thank you for using proper pronouns

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

Like you can be blatantly Transphobic etc all you want, so long as you don't specifically say anything rude directly aimed at someone apparently.

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Originally Posted by Coletergeist

What point are they making with their comments? Other than being rude and mocking the community?

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I don't understand why you both berate my identity. I think it's absolutely hypocritical of you to pick and choose what you deem a 'proper' identity while simultaneously condemning ones that don't fit your ideals.

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Originally Posted by Nayout

I don't want to be the one to tell you guys, but do you realize that you are arguing with a troll and his alts? It's ridiculous how you bite the baits

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https://i.postimg.cc/CKKCJ9ps/lol.jpg

I like your ideas Apache.

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Originally Posted by Nayout

I speak for everyone

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The hells you do. Do not presume to speak on my behalf, because clearly you bloody well DON'T.

As a gay man myself I really don't get why so many people put their sexuality in their search info, or their pronounse..
It makes me want to avoid you personally.
Makes you look like an attention seeker/drama queen.

You are not your character.

Look, I generally find this whole pronoun thing to be a bit farcical. That said my opinion aside this has been beaten to death.

* There are many MANY MANY languages in this game that ALL must be accounted for when there is a systemwide change. That is work.
* There are voiced cutscenes in which pronouns are used. Very unlikely to be able to coordinate voicing to replace this in EVERY LANGUAGE.

Right there is enough to tell me we don't really need to think any further on this. It would be very minimal gain for work best spent elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by Fourbestintoner

You are not your character.

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That is correct. I am not a nearly eight foot tall being with horns, a tail and beautiful golden scales.

Like any being responding to this thread, I am just like you - a fellow human.

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Originally Posted by Wolwosh

As a gay man myself I really don't get why so many people put their sexuality in their search info, or their pronounse..
It makes me want to avoid you personally.
Makes you look like an attention seeker/drama queen.

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Agreed. Or when fc’s put “lgbt friendly”. You shouldn’t have to put that. It should be assumed. But it’s like everywhere i look people have their sexuality on their search info everywhere and i genuinely don’t get it.

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Originally Posted by HollyJollyPaca

Any particular reason to appose it?

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Twitter as an example.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Agreed. Or when fc’s put “lgbt friendly”. You shouldn’t have to put that. It should be assumed. But it’s like everywhere i look people have their sexuality on their search info everywhere and i genuinely don’t get it.

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Never assume everyone agrees with you or your lifestyle. Good advice for the world in general. The reason FC's have to list that they are LGBT friendly is because there is a significant portion of the world that is not. Since this is a global game, if you wish to drag politics and sexual identity into your interactions, expect pushback OR remove yourself to a safe space.

LGBT friendly FC's list that they are LGBT friendly to let you know where those safe spaces are.

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Originally Posted by Coletergeist

What point are they making with their comments? Other than being rude and mocking the community? If they want to have a say in something like this, they should be more informative.

But of course that logic is beyond you.

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The point they're making is that they are one and the same with MPK...both are run by a failed troll

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Originally Posted by Rongway

It would be quite easy. You are overcomplicating it. Presumably there is a placeholder token in all lines of dialog where the WoL's personal pronouns appear. Presumably the game replaces the placeholder in all dialog occurrences with the corresponding pronoun via a conditional that calls the function that returns the character's sex. These are reasonable presumptions that any competent programmer would make.

I don't care how bad the game's code base is; there's no way it would take more than twenty minutes to add a gender selector to character creation, add the gender field to the character data, and modify the function that returns the character's sex during dialog pronoun replacement to return the character's gender instead. Then another twenty minutes to add a quick validation into the character loader that silently fixes any existing character data that doesn't have a gender selected to default to the gender matching the character's sex. Hardly any time at all for each localization team to provide add the word for "gender" into the localization dictionary. Maybe a little bit more time to code a dialog box that gives all existing characters the opportunity to set their gender on the first load after the feature is added.

As far as technical difficulty is concerned, this is not a difficult ask, by any means.

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Not all lsnguages are as simple as english, considering the ppronoun it changes in some language quite the sentence structure. Not worth the programming cost.

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Originally Posted by Merhouse

https://i.postimg.cc/CKKCJ9ps/lol.jpg

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https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...8469165339.png

No. I don't want these things in my games.

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Originally Posted by Sotaris

No. I don't want these things in my games.

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You dont want pronouns in your games, I take it?

How is this thread still alive? Thought it was ended like 8 pages ago.

I feel like people are responding to other posters and not the OP's original suggestion and it shows. It's already been agreed on by most of the coherent posters in this thread and OP themselves that it'd be quite a bit of work for SE to go back and alter/flag 8+ years of dialogue to account for the various permutations that might exist for desired pronouns as well as languages and that should've been the end of it. Instead here you are arguing over gender politics and "not in muh game" as well as feeding the blatant trolls...

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Originally Posted by LianaThorne

How is this thread still alive? Thought it was ended like 8 pages ago.

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I can't agree with you more. It seemed like it'd be over by page 3 this morning but then I see this ongoing trainwreck, though it doesn't surprise me.

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Originally Posted by HyperSMB

Never assume everyone agrees with you or your lifestyle. Good advice for the world in general. The reason FC's have to list that they are LGBT friendly is because there is a significant portion of the world that is not. Since this is a global game, if you wish to drag politics and sexual identity into your interactions, expect pushback OR remove yourself to a safe space.

LGBT friendly FC's list that they are LGBT friendly to let you know where those safe spaces are.

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Those are a dime a dozen, now where are my "traditional, conservative" FCs. Those are rare.

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Originally Posted by Tharia

Not all lsnguages are as simple as english, considering the ppronoun it changes in some language quite the sentence structure. Not worth the programming cost.

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English, simple?

Their, they're, there.

Two, to, too.

Won and one.

Read and read.

And those are just the super common ones that people mess up

OT: Merely changing the pronoun used for the PC to the other gender wouldn't be that difficult. Adding MORE pronouns would be insanely difficult. Especially something like "they/their" because it f's with sentence structure in English. I know other languages also have complicated relationships with gendered pronouns, but in general just changing the PC between male/female pronouns wouldn't be all that hard.

Idk why we're even still discussing anything in this thread, it should've died a long time ago.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Agreed. Or when fc’s put “lgbt friendly”. You shouldn’t have to put that. It should be assumed.

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Yes it should be. But there are FCs out there that are openly hostile or have members that are extremely hostile to lgbt folks or poc. Just like in real life, you don't want to go hang out at a place that you are not comfortable or feel welcome at. And in a time where ppl are still being beaten, killed, shunned and abused because of their sexuality, it's nice to know the places that are welcoming so they can simply go in and feel at ease. I mean this is the whole reason lbgt bars and shops exist in the first place. Many players, just like ppl irl, do not actually advertise their sexuality, but they also don't want to sit there and listen to homophobic comments constantly and then be told to just get over it. And that doesn't even go just for gay ppl. Not every straight person wants to hear it either.

We had this in an old static I was in, every other word out of one of the members mouth was a slur of some sort. Then when asked, politely, by the straight fc leader to be a little respectful to their fc mates because everyone deserves to feel welcome in the group, the response was, well...cringy and caused all sorts of drama. Not from the ppl who just wanted to play the game and have fun with their mates, but from the ppl who thought it was their first amendment right to be as hateful as they possibly could be. And tried (unsuccessfully) for over a month to bring the whole guild crashing down just because they were asked to not use certain words.

Simply saying lgbtq friendly in your fc advert or asking ppl in your guild to be respectful of other members is not pushing it in anyone's face. It's simply stating "hey, we got you bro" to the ppl who want to know they can play the game without listening to some idiot try to be edgy, and "move-on" to the ppl who don't or won't understand because they don't themselves. Or worse, those who actively try to ruin another player's experience for such asinine reasons as their sexuality.

If you really do not understand, consider yourself lucky that you have never had to enter spaces irl or online on a daily basis and wonder if you are going to be accepted or be in danger for simply existing.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Those are a dime a dozen, now where are my "traditional, conservative" FCs. Those are rare.

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They are also a dime a dozen, but don't tend to have many members. So my suggestion would be, make one. Help the ones that exist advertise and gain members. Use 'conservatives only' in your adverts. There is literally nothing stopping you.

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Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia

Yes it should be. But there are FCs out there that are openly hostile or have members that are extremely hostile to lgbt folks or poc. Just like in real life, you don't want to go hang out at a place that you are not comfortable or feel welcome at. And in a time where ppl are still being beaten, killed, shunned and abused because of their sexuality, it's nice to know the places that are welcoming so they can simply go in and feel at ease. I mean this is the whole reason lbgt bars and shops exist in the first place. Many players, just like ppl irl, do not actually advertise their sexuality, but they also don't want to sit there and listen to homophobic comments constantly and then be told to just get over it. And that doesn't even go just for gay ppl. Not every straight person wants to hear it either.

We had this in an old static I was in, every other word out of one of the members mouth was a slur of some sort. Then when asked, politely, by the straight fc leader to be a little respectful to their fc mates because everyone deserves to feel welcome in the group, the response was, well...cringy and caused all sorts of drama. Not from the ppl who just wanted to play the game and have fun with their mates, but from the ppl who thought it was their first amendment right to be as hateful as they possibly could be. And tried (unsuccessfully) for over a month to bring the whole guild crashing down just because they were asked to not use certain words.

Simply saying lgbtq friendly in your fc advert or asking ppl in your guild to be respectful of other members is not pushing it in anyone's face. It's simply stating "hey, we got you bro" to the ppl who want to know they can play the game without listening to some idiot try to be edgy, and "move-on" to the ppl who don't or won't understand because they don't themselves. Or worse, those who actively try to ruin another player's experience for such asinine reasons as their sexuality.

If you really do not understand, consider yourself lucky that you have never had to enter spaces irl or online on a daily basis and wonder if you are going to be accepted or be in danger for simply existing.

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Literally no one swears or says slurs ingame or shun players of their race/sexuality because of how ban happy the GMs are in this game. Do you even raid? You don't even have any mounts or achievements for savage so what static is this for?

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Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia

Simply saying lgbtq friendly in your fc advert or asking ppl in your guild to be respectful of other members is not pushing it in anyone's face. It's simply stating "hey, we got you bro" to the ppl who want to know they can play the game without listening to some idiot try to be edgy, and "move-on" to the ppl who don't or won't understand because they don't themselves. Or worse, those who actively try to ruin another player's experience for such asinine reasons as their sexuality.

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Pretty much this. Unfortunately, people can be that terrible. It's the world we live in. Having such spaces where players can be themselves isn't a bad thing at all.

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Originally Posted by MPK

Literally no one swears or says slurs ingame because of how ban happy the GMs are in this game. Do you even raid? You don't even have any mounts or achievements for savage so what static is this for?

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Known, and very poor troll account I know. But this was on discord during ARR/HW. See all those ponies and birds. I did raid before I got too busy in college. Nice try tho.

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Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia

Known, and very poor troll account I know. But this was on discord during ARR/HW. See all those ponies and birds. I did raid before I got too busy in college. Nice try tho.

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Literally no one makes statics for Extremes. Hell, I've never even been asked about what my Sexuality/Race is. Why does it matter for raiding? Literally no one goes out of their way to attack someone for no reason in this game especially due to how ban happy the GMs are.

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Originally Posted by HollyJollyPaca

I think when it came to the creation, it was the face options? I'm not exactly sure but that's what I assume. That and I think Lala was their last resort cause they couldn't get that female presentation in other races without actually being female (the other races def aren't as ambiguous face wise)

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I think - although I can't be super positive - that there are some male miqo'te faces that paired with more feminine hairstyles, look very feminine. Just an idea for your friend to check out in the character creation.

Imagine not being able to function over video game identity politics. How does your friend play any game?

Going to be a bit blunt.. and perhaps a bit rude here. This is a fantasy game with rules set for how and what things are. With a request like this all I want to know is the following: How does this work by the rules of this setting? All the playable races are from everything we have seen of a binary nature, male and female. Thus what you request on behalf of your friend is not necessary, nor would it fit in.

Look, I get that it is of a 'personal preference' nature based entirely on IRL. But sometimes you have to recognize and accept that the setting of a game is not meant to take into account and accommodate real life. Do you know why skin color is never brought up as an issue in this game's setting? Because it isn't one. That generic darker skinned Viera NPC is not treated any differently than the other Viera NPC with lighter skin. Even the discrimination that is there, for example towards Ala Mhigans, has nothing to do with skin color and everything with them being 'filthy refugees', has everything to do with reasons rooted in the narrative, not real life.

Ultimately my view is this: You play a character in this setting, of a race and gender that abides by the rules of the setting. Disconnect from the character. Acknowledge that the character is not you and is not meant to represent who you are in real life. It is most definitely what I'd advise your friend to try to do. Now, in player interaction, that's an entirely different matter, you can request friends/acquaintances and if you wish attempt to ask even strangers to respect preferred pronouns. Obviously in interactions with other people it does matter more.