Let's delete tier 1 "Cure" spells in 6.0 (by upgrading them to tier 2)

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Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

Yes? Do you not know what schadenfreude is?

No need to answer, you know what's coming, you do this to yourself.

https://i.imgur.com/mtQu36Z.png

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And once again....

https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

Could just tweak the mana cost of all tier 2 cure spells so they're less expensive in general. Besides, I wanna turn Fluid Aura into an instant GCD spell that deals sameish damage as the current Stone equivalent but has 2 charges on a 30s CD, thereby giving WHM a damaging movement/weaving option (to complement their healing movement/weaving option in lilies).

Make it like PvP, Tier 1 version cost no MP. Don't remove niche and identity skills, they are fun, make classes more unique... This game needs more than just potency skills, content that would require cc would be something cool. But it is doubtful they gonna change their game that way

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Originally Posted by Commander_Justitia

Make it like PvP, Tier 1 version cost no MP. Don't remove niche and identity skills, they are fun, make classes more unique... This game needs more than just potency skills, content that would require cc would be something cool. But it is doubtful they gonna change their game that way

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The only reason why Cure 1 exists at 80 is because of the Free Cure mechanic... a mechanic that is actively bad to try to use after level 50 (and arguably just bad to use). Free Cure needs a rethink, and Cure 1 needs to go.

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Originally Posted by Commander_Justitia

Make it like PvP, Tier 1 version cost no MP. Don't remove niche and identity skills, they are fun, make classes more unique... This game needs more than just potency skills, content that would require cc would be something cool. But it is doubtful they gonna change their game that way

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Yeah, content requiring a CC that only one job has access to (like Fluid Aura's Bind) will never fly. The game already uses CC, but it's role action CC that all jobs in a role can use. Interrupts from tanks and ranged physical, stuns from tanks and melee (all healers have the sleep-inducing "repose" action).

If they add more CC-centric mechanics to fights in the future, it will be from role actions, duty actions, or unique stuff like lost actions in Bozja, not from niche "identity" skills like Fluid Aura. Also, Fluid Aura used to deal damage, and was pretty much exclusively used for its damage as an oGCD until devs removed the damage portion of the skill. If anything, turning Fluid Aura back into a damage skill will bring back the "identity" players created for it (and give it a ton more use than being unused bloat).

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Originally Posted by Pyitoechito

Could just tweak the mana cost of all tier 2 cure spells so they're less expensive in general. Besides, I wanna turn Fluid Aura into an instant GCD spell that deals sameish damage as the current Stone equivalent but has 2 charges on a 30s CD, thereby giving WHM a damaging movement/weaving option (to complement their healing movement/weaving option in lilies).

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SE has decided that movement spells incur a penalty so they'll never be equivalent to any castable spell.

SCH has ruin 2 at 200 potency but their dot doesn't have any upfront damage

WHM has Dia at 120 potency upfront and is essentially their movement spell.

AST is the one screwed with no movement damage, but they can draw and buff during that time if it's up.

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Originally Posted by Pyitoechito

Yeah, content requiring a CC that only one job has access to (like Fluid Aura's Bind) will never fly. The game already uses CC, but it's role action CC that all jobs in a role can use. Interrupts from tanks and ranged physical, stuns from tanks and melee (all healers have the sleep-inducing "repose" action).

If they add more CC-centric mechanics to fights in the future, it will be from role actions, duty actions, or unique stuff like lost actions in Bozja, not from niche "identity" skills like Fluid Aura. Also, Fluid Aura used to deal damage, and was pretty much exclusively used for its damage as an oGCD until devs removed the damage portion of the skill. If anything, turning Fluid Aura back into a damage skill will bring back the "identity" players created for it (and give it a ton more use than being unused bloat).

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Yeah I know, the fluid aura change was bad tbh. But anyway, you know yourself as I do that the current dungeon or in general multiple mobs scenarios are all -> pull as much as possible and aoe. I would like to see more content like potd, where mobs would actually hurt hard and you couldnt just pull the whole instance. If you are forced to go against multiple at once then cc like repose and bind could finally be used and actually save the day. For some reason I think thats more fun than to play every dungeon the same way. The current cc skills on all classes arent really kept up to date because they arent useful and barely used, so I wouldnt want to compare what we have now with what could be.

But to say that 'the game already uses cc' when there is almost no content where you need it still... idk atm its not being utilized. And mostly its just in arr content or the occasional interrupt on a mob to cancel a certain skill, which wont have much of an effect anyway...

The relative uselessness of CC has a lot to do with how easy most content is. Square doesn't want to scare people off with content they can't clear, so they tune it pretty low. Low tuned content means small mistakes don't impact you. If small mistakes don't impact you, then why put a powerful enemy to sleep? Just kill them. Sleep is a waste of time if there's no threat.

What I'm saying is, you can't have good CC or 4D debuff chess unless you have content difficult enough to warrant it.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

The relative uselessness of CC has a lot to do with how easy most content is. Square doesn't want to scare people off with content they can't clear, so they tune it pretty low. Low tuned content means small mistakes don't impact you. If small mistakes don't impact you, then why put a powerful enemy to sleep? Just kill them. Sleep is a waste of time if there's no threat.

What I'm saying is, you can't have good CC or 4D debuff chess unless you have content difficult enough to warrant it.

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It would be nice to see that tier of content as "average". Give us a story mode and let people engage that with the trust system if they want to, and let the gear in the MSQ dungeons be enough to get them through to the next tier.

For the rest of us, give us some halfway decent content so we actually have to pay attention to what we're doing on a daily basis, and not just when we want to do savage stuff. Easy is boring =/

Instead of deleting the tier 1 spells, I think I’d suggest making the proc a 100% chance and adding a third existing spell to proc after the tier 2 spells to make a full healing rotation through combo actions. For example:

Cure 1 > Cure 2 > Cure 3
** > Freecure > potency on main target 150% or something

This would serve the purpose of making those healers who fish for procs more efficient, would revitalize the usefulness of tier 1 spells, and given a good combo action, this could even help AST and SCH who have trouble healing Living Dead.

Benefic > Benefic II > Aspected Benefic
** > critical heal > heals for full potency all at once with no regen/shield or something

Physick > Adloquium > Lustrate
** > I don’t know > you figure it out

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Originally Posted by NobleWinter

I feel like we're missing the fact that all the baby heals (Cure, Benefic, and Phsyick) have a lower cast time than the upgraded counterparts. This allows weaving a single oGCD and in instances where you need to heal someone quickly before damage strikes they can allow you to get the heal where you need it in time to prevent a death. I dont use any of those spells often but I do know what they are good for and why and have resorted to them when the situation calls for it like after a revive when mp is scarce. I realize for most people the spells feel redundant but I like having them there for the small niche usage. If the cast time and mp cost carried over to their counterparts when they got replaced I would be completely on board tho.

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As a WHM I don't even use Cure II in level 80 dungeons, what use could someone possibly have of Cure? It is just bad play. You have better gcds and ogcds at your disposal. Cure and Benefic are good for nothing. If you want instant heal, you use Afflatus Solace, followed by Tetragrammaton which is 1400 cure potency in less than 1.5s, the amount of time you need to cast Cure for 400 potency. So you get 1k cure potency more and you still have time to weave one more ogcd.

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Originally Posted by Roeshel

As a WHM I don't even use Cure II in level 80 dungeons, what use could someone possibly have of Cure? It is just bad play. You have better gcds and ogcds at your disposal. Cure and Benefic are good for nothing. If you want instant heal, you use Afflatus Solace, followed by Tetragrammaton which is 1400 cure potency in less than 1.5s, the amount of time you need to cast Cure for 400 potency. So you get 1k cure potency more and you still have time to weave one more ogcd.

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Ok.... I dare you to try that in a Nier raid after half your party is making you yell:

https://www.gamespot.com/a/uploads/o...27-piccolo.jpg

If you have to bust out low tier heals like cure 1 and benefic 1 in a situation like that, then the party was already doomed to fail from the start.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

What I'm saying is, you can't have good CC or 4D debuff chess unless you have content difficult enough to warrant it.

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Yeah like I mentioned, Palace of the Dead past floors 100/150 is such a content. Even if its useless atm in most other dungeons, I actually would like to see dungeons designed around cc and not just dps.
Like... you could actually see the dungeon map/details for once too and don't just rush everything :) They are selling their own game short by promoting such effecient killing of mobs that are not a threat. Idk when I died last time in a dungeon

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Originally Posted by Roeshel

As a WHM I don't even use Cure II in level 80 dungeons, what use could someone possibly have of Cure? It is just bad play. You have better gcds and ogcds at your disposal. Cure and Benefic are good for nothing. If you want instant heal, you use Afflatus Solace, followed by Tetragrammaton which is 1400 cure potency in less than 1.5s, the amount of time you need to cast Cure for 400 potency. So you get 1k cure potency more and you still have time to weave one more ogcd.

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I called the tier 1 spells niche and admitted I rarely use them, but why in the world would you think abilities with 30 second and 60 second cool downs are an appropriate response to my statement? I would only be using a Tier 1 ability if I didnt have access to literally anything better. That's what makes it niche in the first place.

Yeah I do cringe when I see LVL 70 or 80 players using their base GCD skill.
They need to gooooooo

The base spells heal faster at least, if you run out of instants but need to top a single person - Cure II might be too late before the raid wide aoe.

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Originally Posted by Commander_Justitia

The base spells heal faster at least, if you run out of instants but need to top a single person - Cure II might be too late before the raid wide aoe.

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This—which is why I’d like for them to add some useful trait tied to Cure I. It won’t replace Cure II certainly, but at least it’s something that you might use & won’t leave a bad taste aftermath.

Admittedly, the situation when one runs out of Lilies, Tetra, or Bene to quickly heal 1 player is still very rare. I had a few myself with Cure I ended up saving a live, but it’s like once in a blue moon occasion. When it happens though, I’d make sure to make use of that one free weave slot.

We could just let cure 2 have a 1.5 gcd instead of having cure 1. It'll make it so it kind of steps on the toes of solace but solace gives back damage and two weave spaces. It'll make it not as niche while giving us a another good weave instead of building on a dead skill.

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Originally Posted by Acece

We could just let cure 2 have a 1.5 gcd instead of having cure 1. It'll make it so it kind of steps on the toes of solace but solace gives back damage and two weave spaces. It'll make it not as niche while giving us a another good weave instead of building on a dead skill.

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This is the right answer. It also helps reduce how bad it feels to use GCD heals, and maybe making GCD heals faster and with lower recast could help the role depend a bit less on oGCDs. GCDs would still be suboptimal but you wouldn't be as punished using them and they may make a bit more sense to pop instead or a big CD from time to time.

As much Cure I and the like are, at present, mere sprout-bait, I would rather the game go in a direction in which they make some sense than remove them altogether.

I think the problem we have with mana management at present is that it's largely a matter of being seemingly irrelevant or crippling, with nothing in between. Consider, then, if its effects were more granular.

For instance, what if healers' curative spell costs were slightly increased, offensive spell costs slightly reduced, and MP generation were increased by up to 1% for each % missing MP (max +100%) while throughput were decreased by up to 0.33% throughput per % missing MP (max -33%). (Assume for now that this penalty does not stack with Weakened/Brink of Death.)

In such a case, you would have some reason to actually build in sustain phases for more than just the odd Free Cure proc or the like.

That said, all this still begs the question of whether we want healers to face integral and thematic concerns and mechanics outside of merely Savage-level or similar content, or leave all that mostly replaced by simply rotating oGCDs and maintaining their one DoT and/or HoT. I would hope we would, even if not to the point of being relegated to heal-bots (or worse, heal-spammers further curtailed by MP concerns that do not ultimately result in engagingly deliberate gameplay).

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Originally Posted by NobleWinter

I called the tier 1 spells niche and admitted I rarely use them, but why in the world would you think abilities with 30 second and 60 second cool downs are an appropriate response to my statement? I would only be using a Tier 1 ability if I didnt have access to literally anything better. That's what makes it niche in the first place.

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In most cases, when your party members are so bad that they've depleted all of your resources and still need to heal them, they will eventually die. Waste of time to bother healing someone with cure I imo.

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Originally Posted by Roeshel

In most cases, when your party members are so bad that they've depleted all of your resources and still need to heal them, they will eventually die. Waste of time to bother healing someone with cure I imo.

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That's when you play rez basketball with them and just do the raise and insta cast heal, and if you don't have one of those on cooldown with Swiftcast, then they can stay dead and contemplate why the ground temperature is what it is.