Please don't delay Savage Raid Releases

No one should rush into savage like it is the only content in the game. Savage mode is effectively a challenge mode for people who have already completed all the other story content available and don't see value in doing crafting, housing, or gathering. The cost in effort and time vs reward is abysmal due to the tomestone gear being only 5 levels below.

Also, I like the gear in patch 5.3's tier but E8S was a freaking disaster. If I see another mechanic even close to light rampant on the final fight with a dps check that kills you if so much as one or two people mess up or miss a DPS tonic that screws up your globals outside of an Ultimate, I'm not going to go through the tier.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

I don't see much of a day 1 challenge sadly. I already have my very-safe-estimate macro ready to go 1-100% and a stack of Chili Crab and Syrup standing by, so it's really just a case of doing a few rounds of the timed nodes, groundwork the mats and clicking go.

Sales are not going to be that great either, I'm surprised people have forgotten last set. Crafting is easy so most statics have at least 4+ players prepped, ready to go and far more raiders are self-sufficient.
Bots were able to crack last seasons Expert crafts on release and have had melded Aesthete sets for months so they will be able to churn out pieces from the start. I predict prices will have crashed before a week is over.



I'd be fine with that.

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I don't see it as much of a challenge as I do in terms of actually crafting the recipes; they've long been comedic in difficulty, but the sheer amount of prep, pacing, and crafting within the first few hours is what makes it slightly fun ad challenging, not to mention the theorycrafting that follows therein(e.g. you like myself have prepped some rotations, so I hazard to guess you didn't do that by just taking shots in the dark), especially if you are dealing with a large volume of orders. It's one of the few times where you see collaboration between different groups of players come together. Not to mention the amount of organization to make everything go smoothly. So this is one of the few pieces of content I'm adamant that shouldn't be changed.

It's one of the very few pieces of endgame we actually get. Sales definitely plummet, hell they start to plummet on the evening the patch goes live, then taking a true nosedive the weekend (alongside supply rates).. But that doesn't really detract from the sheer amount of people and statics that rely on crafters, which makes patch day very good for profiteering (160-200M for around 4~ hours of crafting), and a 'good piece of content', and by truly delaying 1 and not the other you remove the incentive for it. All the players will just purchase gear on the weekend when supply really starts to rocket, no real necessary need to actually collaborate or contact other players/crafters in this case (MB will meet the supply).

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

I don't see much of a day 1 challenge sadly. I already have my very-safe-estimate macro ready to go 1-100% and a stack of Chili Crab and Syrup standing by, so it's really just a case of doing a few rounds of the timed nodes, groundwork the mats and clicking go.

Sales are not going to be that great either, I'm surprised people have forgotten last set. Crafting is easy so most statics have at least 4+ players prepped, ready to go and far more raiders are self-sufficient.
Bots were able to crack last seasons Expert crafts on release and have had melded Aesthete sets for months so they will be able to churn out pieces from the start. I predict prices will have crashed before a week is over.



I'd be fine with that.

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I would say color me surprised by bots being able to craft expert but nope not surprised. Short of driving away players SE cant make it hard enough or complex enough to stop bots from being able to do it.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

No one should rush into savage like it is the only content in the game. Savage mode is effectively a challenge mode for people who have already completed all the other story content available and don't see value in doing crafting, housing, or gathering. The cost in effort and time vs reward is abysmal due to the tomestone gear being only 5 levels below.

Also, I like the gear in patch 5.3's tier but E8S was a freaking disaster. If I see another mechanic even close to light rampant on the final fight with a dps check that kills you if so much as one or two people mess up or miss a DPS tonic that screws up your globals outside of an Ultimate, I'm not going to go through the tier.

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Then clearly you’re not cut out for savage. The fight wasn’t hard, but it’s supposed to be a challenge. Savage IS the only end game content this game has to offer so yeah people rush into it. It IS the only continent that yields the strongest gear (of which the gear itself is useless since SE insists on syncing content all the damn time)

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Originally Posted by Colt47

No one should rush into savage like it is the only content in the game. Savage mode is effectively a challenge mode for people who have already completed all the other story content available and don't see value in doing crafting, housing, or gathering. The cost in effort and time vs reward is abysmal due to the tomestone gear being only 5 levels below.

Also, I like the gear in patch 5.3's tier but E8S was a freaking disaster. If I see another mechanic even close to light rampant on the final fight with a dps check that kills you if so much as one or two people mess up or miss a DPS tonic that screws up your globals outside of an Ultimate, I'm not going to go through the tier.

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It's not up to you to decide what people should and shouldn't do.
And there is a very good reason why people rush first week: competitive raiding. If that's not to your taste, that's fine. But first week provides a unique challenge that will not come back for the rest of the tier, namely the race against other statics who try to clear as fast as possible without any outside help.
Even if people are not playing at world first race level, it's a unique additional challenge you only get right after content released.

Savage is not designed for people who don't do housing, crafting, gathering or really any timesink in FFXIV. It's designed to cater to a specific group of players. Just like housing isn't designed for people who tired of savage or have finished the story but for people who enjoy housing. And a big part of the savage players enjoy crafting, housing, Gold Saucer etc. quite a lot, else the demand for a one week delay wouldn't be so high.

Just read through this thread, see for yourself how many avid first week raiders would love a short delay because they are interested in all the other content the game has to offer. But only savage release "forces" them to chose and rush while every other content gets delayed so people can avoid that exact pressure.

And I don't think e8s was a disaster. LR isn't the only mechanic that wipes the entire raid if someone messes up. 2nd 14 on Ramuh is a guaranteed wipe if someone missed their spear. No way around it. Conflag is also an almost guaranteed wipe if either one of the tanks or dps messes up. In very rare cases a party was able to survive it by a quick tank LB and both healers healbotting hard, but that takes some quick reaction from tanks and healers, something you will only find in top-tier players.
E7s is a guaranteed wipe if someone misses an orb.
The only problem with LR is that it's hard to spot who made the mistake without a replay.
The dps check required some form of competency from everyone. On average, people have to play at low-mid green level. That's not unreasonable at all for the final fight of a tier. Titan had a more lenient dps check but a lot more random/ sudden movement mechanics plus more things that required awareness and quick party coordination. E8s has fewer of those, of course the challenge needs to come from somewhere. If a missed tonic makes the difference between a wipe and a kill, several people have been playing sloppy. Even without any uptime strats whatsoever, playing gaze really safe etc. you are able to clear it if people get their rotation right for the most part and don't eat damage downs like candy, including tanks and healers.

E8S was the only fight in last tier that was actually good.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

It's one of the very few pieces of endgame we actually get. Sales definitely plummet, hell they start to plummet on the evening the patch goes live, then taking a true nosedive the weekend (alongside supply rates).. But that doesn't really detract from the sheer amount of people and statics that rely on crafters, which makes patch day very good for profiteering (160-200M for around 4~ hours of crafting), and a 'good piece of content', and by truly delaying 1 and not the other you remove the incentive for it. All the players will just purchase gear on the weekend when supply really starts to rocket, no real necessary need to actually collaborate or contact other players/crafters in this case (MB will meet the supply).

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I can agree on that, I think your idea to release the gathering nodes and Normal from day 1, then Savage and the crafted recipes a week later sorts that nicely. The main issue for most people isn't just the crafting rush, it's the fact MSQ, Normal and the raid story comes along with that and you have to skip over them quickly to maximize your efficiency.
It's sort of a shame this is the only endgame we get though. I miss how indepth the theorycrafting could actually get. Crafting really needs a serious look at in general.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

Also, I like the gear in patch 5.3's tier but E8S was a freaking disaster. If I see another mechanic even close to light rampant on the final fight with a dps check that kills you if so much as one or two people mess up or miss a DPS tonic that screws up your globals outside of an Ultimate, I'm not going to go through the tier.

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Definitely an issue with you and/or your team if that's the case. I don't mean that in an elitist way or to criticize, but if you're not dying 10+ times and still barely scraping the enrage at this point in the tier with easily accessible 500ilv, it means one or more members of the group have significant rotation and uptime flaws.
That's the point where you can blindly blame the fight for being too hard (when it really isn't), or you can look at who needs help in the group, how to improve damage and learn from it.

I am glad they are delaying savage raids by a week or 2. Many times i want to get into savage raiding but I wanted to finish the msq & other content first that by the time I get to it a week or two later a lot of groups have cleared it, then I'm like meh.

Also to delay salvage raids by a week or two, spreads out the content. Nobody isn't rush. Gives me a little time to understand the mechanics in the normal raid...see what i have to look forward to the salvage raids & its mechanics.

Because of time, i dont belong to any statics, & i'm new to the savage raid scene, so doing it PUG, fresh on the first day, will definitely be a learning experience!!

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Originally Posted by Colt47

Also, I like the gear in patch 5.3's tier but E8S was a freaking disaster. If I see another mechanic even close to light rampant on the final fight with a dps check that kills you if so much as one or two people mess up or miss a DPS tonic that screws up your globals outside of an Ultimate, I'm not going to go through the tier.

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Uhh...the DPS check isn't that tight on E8S. Had 4 people die in my static and we still managed to clear it with 10s left...you may want to look at who is and isn't keeping uptime.

Doesn't even need that much uptime. Think about when they first cleared this kitting orbs around the outside.

Round the outside
Round the outside.

I hope they delay savage 1 or 2 weeks. It would give us enough time to enjoy the story and the new content, and also craft everything to be prepared for the Savage content. After that, there's plenty of time to enjoy Savage.

I know "world racers" have tons of people working and crafting everything for them (*cough* some of them using "different" methods to achieve that* cough*) so they can have everything faster than other world racers and blah blah muh competition blah blah; we don't care, this shouldn't affect the rest of us. Also, if it was delayed 1 or 2 weeks it would be more competitive since everyone would start with capped crafting gear, if you look it that way.

So yeah, it would be wise to delay it 1 or 2 weeks. It's better for everyone :)

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Originally Posted by Nighthawky2010

I am glad they are delaying savage raids by a week or 2. Many times i want to get into savage raiding but I wanted to finish the msq & other content first that by the time I get to it a week or two later a lot of groups have cleared it, then I'm like meh.

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They aren't. It's something that the dev team is discussing to possibly do for 6.x

I have done World Prog at 5.0 because there was a delay.
Without delay, I can't enjoy the story, and I prefer the story over the world prog.

I'm for having a delay for every future savage raid.

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Originally Posted by ChocoFeru

I hope they delay savage 1 or 2 weeks. It would give us enough time to enjoy the story and the new content, and also craft everything to be prepared for the Savage content. After that, there's plenty of time to enjoy Savage.

I know "world racers" have tons of people working and crafting everything for them (*cough* some of them using "different" methods to achieve that* cough*) so they can have everything faster than other world racers and blah blah muh competition blah blah; we don't care, this shouldn't affect the rest of us. Also, if it was delayed 1 or 2 weeks it would be more competitive since everyone would start with capped crafting gear, if you look it that way.

So yeah, it would be wise to delay it 1 or 2 weeks. It's better for everyone :)

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No its not better for everyone and 2 weeks ? what the f ... What content do you have to do beside savage anyway ? fishing ? lol. 1 week delay is already too much , people need max 2-3 days to finish the story , do the new extreme and craft the gear.

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Originally Posted by Waterscape

No its not better for everyone and 2 weeks ? what the f ... What content do you have to do beside savage anyway ? fishing ? lol. 1 week delay is already too much , people need max 2-3 days to finish the story , do the new extreme and craft the gear.

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again, the delay is only going to be measured in weeks because the resets are weekly, the patches are only on Tuesday except for dire emergency hotfixes. You can't just screw over Tuesday raiders by dropping it in the middle of the week.

One other thing I'm not sure anyone has mentioned yet regarding the delay and world first prog racing is that it's not just about preparation but also guaranteed start time. If there is a week delay then every team (or group just wanting to do the content completely blind) will have a week to prepare and then they can all jump in at the same time immediately after server up. It will make for a much more direct race experience when everyone is able to start at exactly the same time.

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Originally Posted by oblivion238

As a week 1/world prog raider, I hate having to skip over all of the raid story in order to get into savage asap.

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That’s a choice you make.

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Originally Posted by Waterscape

No its not better for everyone and 2 weeks ? what the f ... What content do you have to do beside savage anyway ? fishing ? lol. 1 week delay is already too much , people need max 2-3 days to finish the story , do the new extreme and craft the gear.

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And if it WAS fishing? Honestly why would that matter what content folks do other than savage? This seems like a troll response to me, for real lol.

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Originally Posted by Curisu

Like, all the casuals who don't have a high priority for raiding will be ready to jump into it when it will be available.
That means for me, a PF raider, that I will have these casuals in the first fight and it would make it harder to clear and takes more different groups.

Right now it is a lot of fun to raid week 1 because just "good" players set the priority so high on it.

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Hahaha such elitism. What makes you not a casual in this instance?

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Originally Posted by Coletergeist

And if it WAS fishing? Honestly why would that matter what content folks do other than savage? This seems like a troll response to me, for real lol.

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You are the troll . Nobody want a delay to savage because some casual want to fish

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Originally Posted by SnowVix

again, the delay is only going to be measured in weeks because the resets are weekly, the patches are only on Tuesday except for dire emergency hotfixes. You can't just screw over Tuesday raiders by dropping it in the middle of the week.

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Yeah i know that i'm just saying that one week is already too much so 2 weeks ain't no way

And btw if they delay savage they will delay tome gear and craft gear . So there is no "prep"

But but, what if I wanna fish? Fishing all day, ayye.

But in all seriousness; I don't fish and don't really care much for it. I'm just saying. Tis was a mere sarcastic statement.

But, you know, I also don't care much for these 'savage world tournaments olympics go brrrr on week one' either.

Basically what I'm saying is; 1 week's wait is fine. Won't kill anyone. Can manage.

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Originally Posted by Waterscape

And btw if they delay savage they will delay tome gear and craft gear . So there is no "prep"

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depending on whether they postpone the extreme or not, that could actually cause some changes in the economy on the crafted weapons (since a 5 item-level higher weapon will be available to raiders who'll definitely be able to clear that week one in their prior tier BiS plus one normal raid piece)

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Originally Posted by Waterscape

No its not better for everyone and 2 weeks ? what the f ... What content do you have to do beside savage anyway ? fishing ? lol. 1 week delay is already too much , people need max 2-3 days to finish the story , do the new extreme and craft the gear.

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Savage is just 1% of the content, welcome to Final Fantasy XIV. I love doing savage, but I'm here to do all the content that me and the rest enjoy, without stress.

Having savage the same day that we get the new main scenario, extreme, optional quests and everything else, adds an unnecessary stress to the formula. Having 1 or 2 weeks to complete all that stuff at our own pace, lets us enjoy better Savage content.

This game shouldn't adapt to the people who only play savage and then forget about the game.

P.S: Also, FFXIV is a casual game, and all PVE content such as Savage and Ultimate are casual content as well, I'll explain;
All the combats have predictable scripted mechanics, nothing is randomized and every single time you face a boss it's going to do the same stuff at the exact same time every single try (except maybe 1 or 2 small mechanics here and there).
They're just trial-and-error boss mechanics, and even if you suck at PVE and never increase your skill at it, you'll end up completing it if you invest enough time, so please, stop treating FFXIV PVE content like it's something "pro", because it isn't; it's still casual content that just needs time invested, while skill factor is just secondary.

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Originally Posted by ChocoFeru

P.S: Also, FFXIV is a casual game, and all PVE content such as Savage and Ultimate are casual content as well, I'll explain;
All the combats have predictable scripted mechanics, nothing is randomized and every single time you face a boss it's going to do the same stuff at the exact same time every single try (except maybe 1 or 2 small mechanics here and there).
They're just trial-and-error boss mechanics, and even if you suck at PVE and never increase your skill at it, you'll end up completing it if you invest enough time, so please, stop treating FFXIV PVE content like it's something "pro", because it isn't; it's still casual content that just needs time invested, while skill factor is just secondary.

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If you truly think that the entire game is casual, then there is no need to rush at all

So, in fact, what you should want, as a player of a casual game, is for all content to be released all at once so that you can then casually pick and do whatever casual content you want in any order you want, casually.

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Originally Posted by linayar

If you truly think that the entire game is casual, then there is no need to rush at all

So, in fact, what you should want, as a player of a casual game, is for all content to be released all at once so that you can then casually pick and do whatever casual content you want in any order you want, casually.

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Savage needs planning and coordination with other 7 people, so no; releasing everything on the same day adds extra stress and the need to rush certain content in order to catch up to savage with your raid members.

I'm sorry, but your point makes no sense. Nice try pointing the "casual" thing though, but you'll need better arguments.

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Originally Posted by ChocoFeru

Savage needs planning and coordination with other 7 people, so no; releasing everything on the same day adds extra stress and the need to rush certain content in order to catch up to savage with your raid members.

I'm sorry, but your point makes no sense. Nice try pointing the "casual" thing though, but you'll need better arguments.

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And immediately you start to treat it not as a casual content.

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Originally Posted by linayar

And immediately you start to treat it not as a casual content.

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I think you have a wrong perception about what's casual and what's not.

Tell me then how it would affect the "pro players" if Savage released 1 or 2 weeks after the patch.

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Originally Posted by ChocoFeru

I think you have a wrong perception about what's casual and what's not.

Tell me then how it would affect the "pro players" if Savage released 1 or 2 weeks after the patch.

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I think you have a wrong perception of casual if you're contrasting it to "pro" players. What pro players? Twitch streamers?

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Originally Posted by linayar

I think you have a wrong perception of casual if you're contrasting it to "pro" players. What pro players? Twitch streamers?

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People who are good clearing hard content fast, or completing content that few people can do.

FFXIV content just needs time invested since all the combats are scripted, so even if you're bad at it you can end up clearing all of them.

On the other hand, if you're bad and the content is hard, it doesn't matter the time you invest; you'll never clear it, wich is not the case with FFXIV.

That's why it makes no sense to keep the actual formula and release everything on the same day; it doesn't add any difficulty, it just makes some people skip cutscenes in order to catch up their party mates.

I'll clear all story content, craft and pentameld everything the same day because I have the time, but other people doesn't have that time and will end up rushing stuff and watering down the new patch experience.

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Originally Posted by ChocoFeru

People who are good clearing hard content fast, or completing content that few people can do.

FFXIV content just needs time invested since all the combats are scripted, so even if you're bad at it you can end up clearing all of them.

On the other hand, if you're bad and the content is hard, it doesn't matter the time you invest; you'll never clear it, wich is not the case with FFXIV.

That's why it makes no sense to keep the actual formula and release everything on the same day; it doesn't add any difficulty, it just makes some people skip cutscenes in order to catch up their party mates.

I'll clear all story content, craft and pentameld everything the same day because I have the time, but other people doesn't have that time and will end up rushing stuff and watering down the new patch experience.

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If it's casual content, then it doesn't matter. You can still be fast at clearing content without needing to rush getting into the content. The game doesn't reward you for getting into the content faster. So if you think it's casual content, then treat it as casual content.

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Originally Posted by linayar

If it's casual content, then it doesn't matter. You can still be fast at clearing content without needing to rush getting into the content. The game doesn't reward you for getting into the content faster. So if you think it's casual content, then treat it as casual content.

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Still, it doesn't matter what a single person thinks. Savage content needs 8 persons, and it would help everyone if it's delayed 1 or 2 weeks. It doesn't affect the people who think FFXIV endgame is pro-content neither, so they can keep thinking FFXIV's endgame is for pro players.

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Originally Posted by ChocoFeru

Still, it doesn't matter what a single person thinks. Savage content needs 8 persons, and it would help everyone if it's delayed 1 or 2 weeks. It doesn't affect the people who think FFXIV endgame is pro-content neither, so they can keep thinking FFXIV's endgame is for pro players.

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Needing 8 people doesn't mean you have to rush, so a delay would just mean a delay. If you can wait 1 or 2 weeks to do Savage, then you can wait for people to all be ready without needing to rush, which shouldn't take even a week.

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Originally Posted by linayar

Needing 8 people doesn't mean you have to rush, so a delay would just mean a delay. If you can wait 1 or 2 weeks to do Savage, then you can wait for people to all be ready without needing to rush, which shouldn't take even a week.

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You're absolutely right, there's no need to rush Savage, so it doesn't matter if Savage is delayed 1 or 2 weeks.

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Originally Posted by ChocoFeru

You're absolutely right, there's no need to rush Savage, so it doesn't matter if Savage is delayed 1 or 2 weeks.

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If it doesn't matter, and you agree there is no need to rush, then why do you want it delayed?

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Originally Posted by linayar

If it doesn't matter, and you agree there is no need to rush, then why do you want it delayed?

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Because it doesn't matter what I think, but what is better for everybody else. I don't care if Savage is put on the first day; I'll be ready with everything crafted, story and everything the first day.
But there's people that won't make it, and there will be some inner conflicts on statics with people that skip cutscenes vs people that want to enjoy the story and doesn't have the time to be ready at day 1, so delaying Savage (like the first Savage patch) would help everyone.

It also would help competition with the world first racers. Imagine everyone starting the competition with the same gear at the same time when servers are up; it would be more challenging for everyone :)

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Originally Posted by linayar

Needing 8 people doesn't mean you have to rush, so a delay would just mean a delay. If you can wait 1 or 2 weeks to do Savage, then you can wait for people to all be ready without needing to rush, which shouldn't take even a week.

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People take time off work to join in the raid. Being part of a raid team means you’re accountable for not wasting their time as much as not wasting your own. A delay is a positive thing like countless people have said, it allows people to make sure they’re using and actually enjoying the content the devs have spent time to make. That’s not to mention time allowed to sort out crafting, prep for raids etc etc. Arguing against a delay “cos you don’t like it” isn’t a valid argument at all

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Originally Posted by ChocoFeru

Because it doesn't matter what I think, but what is better for everybody else. I don't care if Savage is put on the first day; I'll be ready with everything crafted, story and everything the first day.
But there's people that won't make it, and there will be some inner conflicts on statics with people that skip cutscenes vs people that want to enjoy the story and doesn't have the time to be ready at day 1, so delaying Savage (like the first Savage patch) would help everyone.

It also would help competition with the world first racers. Imagine everyone starting the competition with the same gear at the same time when servers are up; it would be more challenging for everyone :)

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Competition doesn't matter for a casual content and group conflict is the group's issue, not the game. If there are people who are ready day 1, there is no reason to make them wait because other people can't find a group that they can work a schedule with, and seeing as how it's casual content, they can take their time finding a group that will be accommodating to their interest.

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Originally Posted by Wyakin

People take time off work to join in the raid. Being part of a raid team means you’re accountable for not wasting their time as much as not wasting your own. A delay is a positive thing like countless people have said, it allows people to make sure they’re using and actually enjoying the content the devs have spent time to make. That’s not to mention time allowed to sort out crafting, prep for raids etc etc. Arguing against a delay “cos you don’t like it” isn’t a valid argument at all

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Arguing for a minimum 1-week delay isn't valid just because people can't wait for people to enjoy the content.

If your entire group agrees that the raid should be the focus, then you only have to wait for people to not rush through the story mode, which you can do together or separately. Then you can go through Savage prog and people can do other content in their own time. Enjoying content is not wasting time.

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Originally Posted by Wyakin

People take time off work to join in the raid. Being part of a raid team means you’re accountable for not wasting their time as much as not wasting your own. A delay is a positive thing like countless people have said, it allows people to make sure they’re using and actually enjoying the content the devs have spent time to make. That’s not to mention time allowed to sort out crafting, prep for raids etc etc. Arguing against a delay “cos you don’t like it” isn’t a valid argument at all

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I'm fully convinced they're a troll at this point. Don't acknowledge them anymore, don't talk to them anymore, put them on ignore.