Time to stop making synced content

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Originally Posted by Elkanah

Honestly, wouldve been fine if they had at least synced it to 450 or 460. We're at about 490-500 atm, so it seems reasonable. I'm more curious about what the prizes will be. That's gonna be the real incentive. If there's nothing worth it (mounts/minions, hair styles, what not), I'm not sure how this is gonna bring players into the content. So I am rather curious what the items will be in this pool :o

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From what Yoshi P said about it.. would be minions and possible mounts that rotate in and out for which boss is currently up.. right now most of us assume the unicorn shown in the mount section is the big reward from Shiva's faux board.. not a drop from the combat but from the mini-game like with Wounderous Tails.

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Originally Posted by Baxcel

Well yeah its above Hard but not as hard as Extreme.. i don't know where they would put it besides raidfinder?

Since they'll be swapped out by patch it wouldn't be able to have its own tab on duty finder.. in raid finder they can't just add the new one each time..

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They tend to exaggerate difficulty at times, so we'll honestly just have to see just how hard or easy it is for ourselves.

Couldn't you just pick undersized before queueing to ignore the ilevel sync? or does Unreal have the same restrictions as Ultimate?

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Originally Posted by Wyakin

Mate, I have the gear I have because I’m able to clear the fights. ... Why even bother getting gear at this point?

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I assume you geared to i500 because it was a reward for content you successfully ran. I assume you'll continue to run that sort of content, and your iLevel will increase as the patches continue. If that isn't the point of getting better gear, then I question why you have to be geared at iLevel 500, when current dungeon-story content can be met by iLevel 440 gear?

Yeah, I know the possible answers to that question. End game. Higher level raids. Things that actually require that 500 iLevel (or will, in patch 5.3).

And, my favorite: I enjoy out gearing old content so that I don't have to work as hard to finish it.

I think people are getting confused with progression content and not just a side thing

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Originally Posted by Puremallace

I think people are getting confused with progression content and not just a side thing

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It's going in the raid finder.

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Originally Posted by Wyakin

As I’ve stated before, it has nothing about wanting steamroll everything. It’s about being able to use the gear I’ve earned. The gear I have the skill to earn btw. The fact remains that the natural order of things is at first content is tougher, then you get better gear and learn fights making them easier. Is it my fault my gear is better than most? What is happening is I’m not being c***blocked by this item level sync making the effort I put forth pretty much useless outside the raid itself. Yes, being item level 500 WILL make it easier, as it damn well should.

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It won't just "make it easier" though. It'll neuter the fight to be effectively pointless. When you get BiS in 5.4 or 5.5 go back and clear E4S. You'll obliterate him; skipping the entirely of phase three, and a good chunk of phase two. At that point, the dev team made a piece of content which will last all of four minutes and not a single mechanic will remotely threaten you.

The whole point of syncing content is because there's no realistic way to balance it with such a linear leveling system like we have. If they put it at i465 with no sync, we're steamrolling through which makes working on it kind of pointless. If they put it at i485—closer to the current ilvl cap—it prevents people who haven't been playing from participating. Considering Unreal is more geared towards the casual playerbase. That restriction makes little sense.

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Originally Posted by Wyakin

You think I’m quaking in my boots cos I can item level cheese the fight? Mate, I have the gear I have because I’m able to clear the fights. I’m i500 because I can’t actually play the game. I also cleared shiva extreme when that was current tier content. My anger is the fact that my gear and melds are pointless outside the very raid I got it from. I’ve said this many many times. I’m sick of item level sync content. Bozja, synced. Expert, synced. Unreal, synced. It’s dumb. Why even bother getting gear at this point?

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I don't disagree they need more content where our raid gear is relevant but that isn't likely to happen as this game focuses very heavily towards including everyone. For the exact reason you them to abandon syncing is why they won't. You'll be leagues above more casual players, thus it'll make content like Bozja less enjoyable for them. Granted, I'd actually argue the content would be worse for those of us with higher level gear. Why? They'll always balance things like Bozja, Expert and such around the casual demographic. I wouldn't find it all that fun going into Bozka next month and laughing as the i430 mobs barely tickle my i500 tank. Frankly, that makes the game boring.

As for why bother gearing. Ultimate. That's literally the reason, which is why I really think there needs to be three. Since this tier lacks an Ultimate encounter, parses are all you have. And while SE will never admit it. They know how much they benefit from FFlogs given how much people care over their logs. If neither of these activities interest you, then there isn't a point to gearing up. FFXIV is more or less designed that way.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

Couldn't you just pick undersized before queueing to ignore the ilevel sync? or does Unreal have the same restrictions as Ultimate?

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Nah the lv80 stuff cant be unsynced currently.. they don't unlock that until the next level upgrade.. so probably 6.0 unless they decide to raise the level of unreal with it too

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Originally Posted by Wyakin

You think I’m quaking in my boots cos I can item level cheese the fight? Mate, I have the gear I have because I’m able to clear the fights. I’m i500 because I can’t actually play the game. I also cleared shiva extreme when that was current tier content. My anger is the fact that my gear and melds are pointless outside the very raid I got it from. I’ve said this many many times. I’m sick of item level sync content. Bozja, synced. Expert, synced. Unreal, synced. It’s dumb. Why even bother getting gear at this point?

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If you have been playing the game this long, you should know that your raid gear means nothing outside of raids. Never has, never will. Your gear is for the raids themselves, ultimate, and parsing. That is why you get gear - not so you can smash through casual content tied to a minigame.

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Originally Posted by Sabrenn

Plus it's going in the raid finder. You don't get casual content in the raid finder......

I don't think it is geared towards the casual playerbase. :|

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Memoria Miseria is in the Raid Finder. Memoria Miseria is casual content.

I just realized something, if it's really meant to be casual content then it would be based on the normal mode shiva... right?

But they said they want people to experience the fight without unsyncing it and clearing it in a few seconds.

However, I don't know of anyone unsyncing shiva normal because that just comes up in trial roulette and so the queue time for that isn't that long. (and it's not hard)

Therefore the only other shiva IS the extreme version.

Plus it's going in the raid finder. You don't get casual content in the raid finder......

I don't think it is geared towards the casual playerbase. :|

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Originally Posted by Sabrenn

I just realized something, if it's really meant to be casual content then it would be based on the normal mode shiva... right?

But they said they want people to experience the fight without unsyncing it and clearing it in a few seconds.

However, I don't know of anyone unsyncing shiva normal because that just comes up in trial roulette and so the queue time for that isn't that long. (and it's not hard)

Therefore the only other shiva IS the extreme version.

Plus it's going in the raid finder. You don't get casual content in the raid finder......

I don't think it is geared towards the casual playerbase. :|

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Tons of casual players do EX fights.

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Originally Posted by Sabrenn

I just realized something, if it's really meant to be casual content then it would be based on the normal mode shiva... right?

But they said they want people to experience the fight without unsyncing it and clearing it in a few seconds.

However, I don't know of anyone unsyncing shiva normal because that just comes up in trial roulette and so the queue time for that isn't that long. (and it's not hard)

Therefore the only other shiva IS the extreme version.

Plus it's going in the raid finder. You don't get casual content in the raid finder......

I don't think it is geared towards the casual playerbase. :|

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Casual "raiding" content to be more specific.

Extreme Primals as a whole are more less considered casual to low-midcore. They're intended for people to get a feel for more difficult content that can actually threaten you but will typically be curb stomped by players more familiar with the raid scene.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Tons of casual players do EX fights.

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We have a very different definition of casual then.

Also this was how the Raid finder was introduced:

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Requirements
Players need only have access to at least one Savage raid in order to unlock the Raid Finder. In the case of Alexander: Midas (Savage), players must speak with Lightkix Eyesfixed in the Dravanian Hinterlands (X:20.6 Y:26.1). Please keep in mind, however, that the Raid Finder will become inaccessible when the next series of Savage raids is introduced. At that time, players must unlock the next Savage raid to gain access to the Raid Finder.

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Maybe it's not exactly the same anymore but I've kept the impression that raid finder isn't casual content.

You can wait almost a year for next 4 savage bosses, than just wait 7+ months more for ultimate, it's simple as that, also, you can use your gear in extremes so you can farm recolored mount.

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Originally Posted by Sabrenn

We have a very different definition of casual then.

Also this was how the Raid finder was introduced:



Maybe it's not exactly the same anymore but I've kept the impression that raid finder isn't casual content.

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Basing how raidfinder was introduced off of the tier following the Savage tier that broke the back of the raiding community isnt the best way to do it imo.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Casual "raiding" content to be more specific.

Extreme Primals as a whole are more less considered casual to low-midcore. They're intended for people to get a feel for more difficult content that can actually threaten you but will typically be curb stomped by players more familiar with the raid scene.

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I mean yea of course you can do raids casually, that doesn't make it casual content. The gold saucer is casual content. MSQ is casual content. Ishgard restoration is casual content.

Extremes, savages, ultimates have different difficulties in a curve and players who are casual can attempt everything of course. That doesn't make it casual content. Normal mode trials are the casual versions.

I can be in a casual static, but do non-casual content casually not caring about when I clear or if I'm wearing bis. Just because I'm being casual about it doesn't make the content casual.

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Originally Posted by Sabrenn

Maybe it's not exactly the same anymore but I've kept the impression that raid finder isn't casual content.

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It's probably not the same anymore. While the note you quoted talks a little about Savage raids being included in the raid finder, you'll note that it was not exclusively for that purpose, and hasn't been exclusively high-end content. "Casual" content doesn't mean there can't be 23 other people playing with you in an instance.

"The Raid Finder allows players to register for instanced raids without having to form a party. By selecting a desired raid and matching requirements, players will be matched automatically with other players spanning multiple Worlds within the same data center."

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Basing how raidfinder was introduced off of the tier following the Savage tier that broke the back of the raiding community isnt the best way to do it imo.

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You say that, but it's still very much only showing the latest extreme trial and current savage / ultimate. Don't see any hard mode or normal modes in raid finder.

I mean I could be completely off and they start shoving all the new content in raid finder but that's really weird to me? Why would casual content need a First Phase, Practice, Clear option?

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

It's probably not the same anymore. While the note you quoted talks a little about Savage raids being included in the raid finder, you'll note that it was not exclusively for that purpose, and hasn't been exclusively high-end content. "Casual" content doesn't mean there can't be 23 other people playing with you in an instance.

"The Raid Finder allows players to register for instanced raids without having to form a party. By selecting a desired raid and matching requirements, players will be matched automatically with other players spanning multiple Worlds within the same data center."

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Oh really?

source: https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/game_...d_maincommands

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Challenge the latest high-level raids. Adjustable search settings allow for solo players or parties under the minimum member requirements to be matched with players with the same goals.
* This feature is unlocked after progressing to a certain point.

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Shiva Unreal is also just Shiva Extreme, but tuned for level 80 characters. If we were to compare her to ShB's current Extreme Trials, she would be the easiest of them all (as she was the easiest Extreme Trial in ARR days, like Garuda EX). The only hard part about her is Glass Dance and Avalanche.

As for how Raid Finder works, it's for when you decide to do the fights via the DF instead of the PF. Having Duty Complete checked means you will only encounter people who have cleared the fight as well and you can only have Duty Complete checked if you have completed the fight itself. Otherwise you can only choose Duty Incomplete, which means you will only encounter people who haven't completed the fight... but then that's when the other checks come in (basically, having specific things checked = who you will party with in DF).

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Originally Posted by Nestama

Shiva Unreal is also just Shiva Extreme, but tuned for level 80 characters. If we were to compare her to ShB's current Extreme Trials, she would be the easiest of them all (as she was the easiest Extreme Trial in ARR days, like Garuda EX). The only hard part about her is Glass Dance and Avalanche.

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Yeah. Back in the day the hardest part of Shiva Ex was unlocking Shiva Ex. I had that one beat in like, a duty and a half and was farming it a couple after that. Took me a little while to get there though because some of the trials were horrible at the time. Ramuh probably gave me the biggest run for my money and sanity.

As far as Shiva Unreal goes, most will probably do it like Shiva Extreme back in the day, but the added caveat of the tank swap being forced. I estimate it may probably be used during the start of each bow phase so the physical/magical vuln stacks fall off.

The purpose of Unreal is content.

If you tune it to 500, it's inaccessible. If you don't sync it, it's dead on arrival. Therefore, you sync it to some accessible item level.

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Originally Posted by Tsumdere

Considering the reason why Titan EX was so difficult has been solved (latency across the board), yeah. I can't wait. I do enjoy some simpler content to do from time to time when I don't feel like raiding.

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Yeah okay =) Yoshi P said the only reason they didn't make Titan first is because it was too difficult and didn't want to traumatise the community yet . I can't wait =) The majority of you will not be able to do it

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Originally Posted by Sabrenn

I mean yea of course you can do raids casually, that doesn't make it casual content. The gold saucer is casual content. MSQ is casual content. Ishgard restoration is casual content.

Extremes, savages, ultimates have different difficulties in a curve and players who are casual can attempt everything of course. That doesn't make it casual content. Normal mode trials are the casual versions.

I can be in a casual static, but do non-casual content casually not caring about when I clear or if I'm wearing bis. Just because I'm being casual about it doesn't make the content casual.

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Hence why it's being classified as casual raid content. What the dev team chooses to classify it as isn't necessarily going to be the same, especially given the Yoshida is notorious for overselling the difficulty of content. From a raiding perspective, this is casual content because it'll be extremely easy.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Hence why it's being classified as casual raid content. What the dev team chooses to classify it as isn't necessarily going to be the same, especially given the Yoshida is notorious for overselling the difficulty of content. From a raiding perspective, this is casual content because it'll be extremely easy.

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It might be easy for you but I just heard someone on discord yesterday say they couldn't beat Memoria Misera. And that's what most people here would consider easy, especially because of the ilv not being synced.

I might agree with you that it's easy raiding content but it's just because you and I have the ability to clear them. Doesn't make it casual. The story mode that lets you unlock memoria where you fight the npc in the cutscene is the casual version.

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Originally Posted by Sabrenn

It might be easy for you but I just heard someone on discord yesterday say they couldn't beat Memoria Misera. And that's what most people here would consider easy, especially because of the ilv not being synced.

I might agree with you that it's easy raiding content but it's just because you and I have the ability to clear them. Doesn't make it casual. The story mode that lets you unlock memoria where you fight the npc in the cutscene is the casual version.

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At this point you're arguing semantics. Most people in the raid scene, which this is advertised towards, will consider it casual from a raid perspective. Considering the ilvl and the target demographic, it may, in fact, be a step below EX Primals. If you want to throw around lower-midcore go ahead. People aren't going to call it that though more so because Savage is considered midcore nowadays.

If we're going to use people's individual experiences as a reference point. Several consider Orbonne or Copied Factory hard. They'll still widely be considered casual content.

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Originally Posted by Wyakin

That is the point behind getting stronger gear..... literally in one sentence. otherwise why bother? cos the new raid gear doesnt exactly look very good thats for sure

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Totally agree with this, and it's one of the major reasons I've unsubbed. Simply put: what the hell am I collecting gear for if the upgrades cannot be used to get a leg up?

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

At this point you're arguing semantics. Most people in the raid scene, which this is advertised towards, will consider it casual from a raid perspective. Considering the ilvl and the target demographic, it may, in fact, be a step below EX Primals. If you want to throw around lower-midcore go ahead. People aren't going to call it that though more so because Savage is considered midcore nowadays.

If we're going to use people's individual experiences as a reference point. Several consider Orbonne or Copied Factory hard. They'll still widely be considered casual content.

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Sorry if I'm derailing the topic here.

I was saying that because the thing is that's it's placed in raid finder so they're not considering it casual. I'm pretty sure Orbonne and Copied Factory aren't in the raid finder. It could be hard to a lot of players, but it doesn't make it "hardcore" content.

So my intent was really to ask if we're underestimating how hard it will be. They don't want people to be able to carry the newbies because it's supposed to be a faithful version of the original at a similar difficulty level as it was when it was released. I'm aware people think shiva was easy, and that's why they're releasing it first, instead of "traumatizing" people with titan.

Quote from fan translation of the last live letter:

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- They contemplated about releasing Titan Unreal but if decided not to because if releasing Titan Unreal too early will just end up traumatizing the players like what happened back then...

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A lot of people on this thread are assuming it's either:
-side content
-between hard/extreme difficulty
-casual

But all we know is that they don't want people traumatized so they're releasing the easier one first and that it's going into the raid finder which has until now only been for extreme/savage/ultimate.

I think it's going to be a weird one for newbies who try it because it's ilv sync there's no way for them to outgear it and it being so low ilv means a lot of people who are fresh 80's will try it and I think pf is going to be very harsh towards newbies and lock it higher to filter newbies.

Maybe I'm just over-reacting with how pf is going to be but if it's anything like what pf is now, then people WILL ilv block to 490+ and newbies will get pushed out, which I hope won't happen but we'll see I guess.

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Originally Posted by Sabrenn

A lot of people on this thread are assuming it's either:
-side content
-between hard/extreme difficulty
-casual

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The purpose of it is that it is Extreme difficulty, but accessible to people who aren't fully geared.
You can go in day one, without being penalised for not farming the last savage tier.

It does make it feel a little like gear doesn't matter at times.

I think that they could not sync in the current expansion but still do it in the old content otherwise you'd just one-shotting everything lol.

All I know is that current max level content should be designed for the max current item level of gear that is available when it's released. There absolutely should be a window for those that don't have quite max but syncing down right off the bat, especially so much, is a bad feeling.

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Originally Posted by TeraRamis

Simply put: what the hell am I collecting gear for if the upgrades cannot be used to get a leg up?

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The true endgame: glamour.

Otherwise, in a game with limited inventory, who would actually "collect" gears that would always be replaced unless you have some fond memory of getting/using that gear?

On the other hand, if you want to do content that are ilvl synced down and be able to use materia, maybe that's a reason to keep old gears around. /shrug

Oh please, let me recall something people said a while back about gloating rights, how when you beat something and have something to prove, now the ilv is a issue?

I would say anyone who beats unreal at maximum level you can't really have gloating rights, would be way more impressive if a bunch of low levels did it, this means they can dodge better, work together better than a high level ever could accomplish only then they can gloat, not the high levels and I believe that's why people have a issue because well if a low level out does you in that fight then they set the bar.

Is that why you don't want the minimum level? I mean higher levels doesn't make you a better player, I out done people at lower level and watched people who had way better gear crash and burn, This i seen first hand in FFXI a guy gloating when garuda was released about how great his dark knight was versus my cousin's dark knight saying he was under geared and cousin out performed him and he died and home pointed and logged out because he ate his words.

Syncing is fine in my book the only ones who have issues is they love to blame the lower levels when they are the ones dying.

The stupidest possible thing is having synched Expert dungeons. Like what's even the point of being BiS at this point if I can't rush through an Expert 2-3 minutes faster?

I'm ok with level sync leveling dungeons, still not sure how to feel about level sync the new unreal.. people who played the old content will already know the fight mechanics and get it cleared on day on.
I would have enjoyed if they added another ultimate for the end game Raiders, unreal just won't cut it for them, casual players will probably struggle with it or not care enough for it. We'll see what happens I guess

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Originally Posted by Enla

While I don't agree with the basis of this rant I will say I am also equally surprised by the low ilvl for Unreal. I get that they want to make it accessible for more people to justify the development time, but even just upping the ilvl requirement to i465 would have been more practical at this stage of the game.

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I second your second point--especially after the delay between 5.2 and 5.3. I mean, I feel like most people have had more than enough time to get ti i465 at least.

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Originally Posted by Guntank81

I would have enjoyed if they added another ultimate for the end game Raiders, unreal just won't cut it for them,

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You mean, like, 3 Ultimates per expac?
Also... are Unreal fights intended for hardcore players? I haven't heard anything about this.
If anything, that they're on a timer means they'd need to be more accessible for the player base beyond the top few percent.

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Originally Posted by iAxX23

what's even the point of being BiS

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Sooo close to self awareness in this thread...

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Originally Posted by iAxX23

The stupidest possible thing is having synched Expert dungeons. Like what's even the point of being BiS at this point if I can't rush through an Expert 2-3 minutes faster?

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It wouldn't be 2-3 minutes faster. It'd be closer to 10+ Let's take Amaurot, which has a i420 sync. At i500 those mobs will barely live through a single AoE rotation. You straight up do not need a healer in this scenario; it'd be debatable if you even needed a tank especially once the next gear tier releases. Now new players trying to experience the concluding dungeon to Shadowbringers get a sprint to the finish line with mobs dying in seconds. Look at LotA and Syrcus Tower. Wanna know why people are so fed up seeing them? Because we're 70 ilvls above their relevance and nearly every mechanic is skipped. They're just a series of boring dummy targets. That ilvl discrepancy is actually ten less than what Amaurot would have now. Except it'd be even worse since dungeon mobs aren't scaled as high as 24 mans.

The point of BiS is Ultimate and/or parsing. One of the reasons this tier has such low participation is due to the lack of Ultimate. Hence why raiders keep asking for a third one.