What do you guys think is the cause of severe lack of Tank users?

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Originally Posted by SamRF

I just want to clarify further why I believe healer should be allowed to pull more if they want because I believe those tank's are basing their pull entitlement reasoning on selfish desires which is imo no defensible position in content that relies on teamwork.

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That's a lot of projection you seem to have there Mr. "Snowflake".

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Originally Posted by SamRF

Woah there don't pull a straw man on me. Raids or boss fights have nothing to do with that conversation. We're talking about mob pulls here.

And you're right that's what a good tank does. What if your tank doesn't though? You're standing there spamming your AoE dps as healer with your thick gear, seeing tank barely takes a dent while that next delicious mob pull is just one DoT away, you realize how much dps is going to waste, how much potential is lost with those AoEs missing half their value. Meanwhile you can feel your head starting to doze off to sleep as the 1 button spamming is putting you in a trance. You know full well you can tank that set of mobs for bunch of hits or handle the situation if chaos ensues as healer. Do you pull or no?

Of course you don't, because you don't want to hurt the tank their feelings or damage their ego. Just to avoid a conflict. That's the sad reality.

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Okay now hold up there. That is assuming the tank is being a chicken about it. There are also times I have been chewed out for not pulling the darn world when I tank for a number of reasons.
1) Healer is undergeared and being cocky. (Happens every week at least once and DPS don't take time to look at the healer gear when they don't realize the healer is struggling).
2) DPS are undergeared, adds are dying to slow for me to have enough cooldowns for another big pull cause I have to use extra ones because the previous pull didn't die fast enough.
3) I have no cooldowns available. Usually because a healer decided to DPS too much instead of heal and I have to burn extra cooldowns. Im not going to pull a large mob with 0 cooldowns, sorry.

So yes, some tanks are going to be slow at pulling all the time. Grit your teeth and deal with it or be a tank, but if you so much as pull adds that I am not in the process of grabbing, good luck on you cause there is a reason I didn't pull them. That is your responibility at that point. Don't ASSUME everything. I have had enough dungeon cocky players that turned around and bit the dust and then blame the tank for getting overzelous. If you don't like the tempo of the tank then, tank yourself. Easy as that. This isn't just a "oh you hurt my feelings" there is also a "No you are just being straight up ingorant" as well.

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Originally Posted by Tulzscha

They're just examples. Point is, don't be an asshole. Use words. There are other people playing this game besides yourself, it's not all about what you want (not you Shurrikhan, general you, lol).

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That depends, though, in this particular circumstance (not the general idea, of course). Asking for confirmation each time to obvious questions is just that asshole annoying everyone in your Gen Ed class rather than the asshole TA in your Major class who proceeds without explaining anything.

If the words amount to asking your healer, "Should I pull more?", that is more than sufficiently answered by your healer, itself, pulling more.

DPS pulling, on the other hand, is far less likely to equate to "Yes, the person who controls whether we live or die is ready and wanting to pull more."

Given how rarely I look down at chat mid-fight, and that it's none too obvious on my ultrawide when they do, I, as a tank, would much rather my healer pull to confirm their preference than type to me while I'm doing other things. I just expect them to at least do so in tactical manner.

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Originally Posted by SamRF

And you're right that's what a good tank does. What if your tank doesn't though?

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then you deal with it like a non-whiney little baby would. when did you become more important than the tank? who are you to decide if the tank is "not good" just because its the Norm for tanks to pull bigger doesn't mean they are forced to. omg a tank pull one pack at a time and the dungeon took a whole 10 minutes longer ... oh god the world is gonna end.

here is your options

1) suck it up buttercup
2) play a tank and shut up about
3) find a group that will encourage your playstyle and run dungeons exclusively with them.

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Originally Posted by Vulcann

then you deal with it like a non-whiney little baby would. when did you become more important than the tank? who are you to decide if the tank is "not good" just because its the Norm for tanks to pull bigger doesn't mean they are forced to. omg a tank pull one pack at a time and the dungeon took a whole 10 minutes longer ... oh god the world is gonna end.

here is your options

1) suck it up buttercup
2) play a tank and shut up about
3) find a group that will encourage your playstyle and run dungeons exclusively with them.

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Why are we pretending that the expectations Sam is mentioning are the rarity, not the norm?

Big pulls are the norm. Tanks not wasting their party's time is the norm.

Tanks fall outside of the norm do so when the party itself is outside the norm (i.e. they're being adaptable), when they lack experience (which is wholly fixable), or when they take on the efforts or step outside their perceived vision of taking (as opposed to what actually helps most). In my own experience, these have made up about a twelfth or less of all dungeon runs, with the second case being the most common and the first the least.

Healers pulling in the first case is helpful, as, when a tank checks the healer's gear or the party's dps and finds the situation marginal, the person most affected can make the call.
Healers pulling in the second case is hit or miss, as it can give experience that pushes them into higher levels on confidence and efficiency, but can also frighten off certain tanks -- if one were to judge by the posts here, almost permanently.
Healers pulling in the last case is helpful in the long run, if perhaps less so in the short. In the long run, it helps to push those tanks out of the idea that they are the only player in their party whose preferences matter. In the short, it can force oneself and the DPS to wait, sometimes for quite a while, for a new tank after the tank completes their tantrum and stomps off or is finally able to be kicked.

Having run so many across three characters, I've seen well over twenty tanks refuse to pull or move until kicked and perhaps a dozen even to roll on loot as not to be able to be kicked, while twice my tank has even chain pulled to maintain combat while refusing to actually tank (again, to prevent a vote kick) just to harass the party. I've not once seen that behavior from another role, with the closest being healers who adamantly refuse to deal damage or DPS who adamantly refuse to AoE, both of which at least do not directly impact the pacing of the other 3 players. This could be coincidence; my sample size, after all, is only in the couple thousand or so. But I, at least, cannot help but wonder why exactly runs have often gone more smoothly, especially prior to the removal of most defensive and enmity tools among DPS, when a tank refuses to tank and the party continues as a 3-man, than when they continue on but with frequent rants. Is tanking to hostage-taking or entitled timidity as healing is to protected idleness?

That still doesn't make it the norm. Nor, even if it somehow were, would it be okay. The majority of tanks already pull reasonably. The majority of that remainder are getting there. And that there are others who refuse ever to play outside of their narrow "immersive" view of what dungeoning should look like does not make it any less a waste when someone follows their limited example.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Efficiency is a really good thing, if you can provide it. Efficiency means that skill impacts performance.

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Lead Dev: They want to provide more efficiency? Better give them more passive mitigation and higher enmity modifiers!

Intern: But won't the melee want efficiency, too?

Lead Dev: You're right. Let's make sure that the boss can only move sluggishly, with a capped turning speed. To compensate, we'll fatten its hitbox during most mechanics and we'll let it teleport back to where it needs to go for the more rigid ones, leaving an "afterimage", and allow it to melee from up to 30 yalms away. Good work, boys.

I think the dev team and the player base have very different views of "what you provide" means, with the latter view being a whole lot less... limited.

Back to the initial question: What do you guys think is the cause of severe lack of Tank users?

I think this thread is a good answer in total to the question. Because everybody has a different opinion what makes a good tank, there are a lot of unwritten rules how to tank, and because the tank is the leading role of the party (tank moves the boss) you are the center of attention for dps and healers. If a dps moves around like crazy or dies or whatever, it doesn't matter that much. If a tank is moving around like crazy or dies, it does matter for the rest of the party very much.

Because of this responsibility, I guess, many players don't want to tank, especially if you get harsh feedback from dps, who know everything better then you, but don't want to take the said reponsibility.
So what I would like to see is more appreciation from dps and healers for people playing tanks, be nice to them, let them do their thing and try to support them, adapt to their playstyle, stop trying to force the tank into playing it your way. Maybe we get more people willing to play as tanks, maybe.

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Originally Posted by BarretOblivion

Okay now hold up there. That is assuming the tank is being a chicken about it. There are also times I have been chewed out for not pulling the darn world when I tank for a number of reasons.
1) Healer is undergeared and being cocky. (Happens every week at least once and DPS don't take time to look at the healer gear when they don't realize the healer is struggling).
2) DPS are undergeared, adds are dying to slow for me to have enough cooldowns for another big pull cause I have to use extra ones because the previous pull didn't die fast enough.
3) I have no cooldowns available. Usually because a healer decided to DPS too much instead of heal and I have to burn extra cooldowns. Im not going to pull a large mob with 0 cooldowns, sorry.

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Yes I'm not talking about these scenarios. You probably shouldn't pull more here I agree (except point 3 maybe, depending on the instance difficulty and gear)

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Originally Posted by BarretOblivion

So yes, some tanks are going to be slow at pulling all the time. Grit your teeth and deal with it or be a tank, but if you so much as pull adds that I am not in the process of grabbing, good luck on you cause there is a reason I didn't pull them. That is your responibility at that point. Don't ASSUME everything. I have had enough dungeon cocky players that turned around and bit the dust and then blame the tank for getting overzelous. If you don't like the tempo of the tank then, tank yourself. Easy as that. This isn't just a "oh you hurt my feelings" there is also a "No you are just being straight up ingorant" as well.

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I agree that those extra mobs I pull will be my responsibilty and I will bring the mobs to you so you'll take aggro no matter what during your AoE rotation. If it leads to deaths, then by all means complain and get upset and kick me.

Like I've said before, healers pulling ahead of tank usually happens in faceroll content where tanks are redundant anyway.

Hey Vulcann, how you doing?

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Originally Posted by Vulcann

then you deal with it like
a non-whiney little baby would. when did you become more important than the tank? who are you to decide if the tank is "not good" just because its the Norm for tanks to pull bigger doesn't mean they are forced to. omg a tank pull one pack at a time and the dungeon took a whole 10 minutes longer ... oh god the world is gonna end.

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You can ask the tank those very same questions. Who are you to decide I'm not allowed to pull more while I keep everyone alive?

It's an arbitrary convention, imo be open minded and adaptable, or don't be, but at least don't complain about it while healer willingly takes the responsibility.

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Originally Posted by Ramura_Sono

That's not really a tank only thing though. "Sometimes feels like dps are only necessary to beat enrages. Other than that they're just there to increase efficiency in most content it seems."

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Yeah fair point. I guess I just wish Tank had more responsibility since they have simpler rotations than DPS. I'd be in favor of all roles having (much) more responsibility in normal PUG content but I guess I understand why that isn't the case.

Like many other's have said here, I wonder if lack of responsibility for Tanks is actually the bigger reason for why there's a role shortage. I'm just assuming here but it seems to me people get much faster burnt out on tanking than dps, probably because of the lower skill ceiling or simpler dps rotation. The role might feel a good deal more exciting if you had some more responsibility or had to deal with more complex role specific mechanics.

Idk though Tank and Healer seems to always be in shortage compared to DPS in any game. Perhaps it might have more to do with the fantasy aesthetic and archetype than anything else. I know that for me personally, aesthetic and theme is the most important factor I consider for maining a job or class (in any RPG).

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Originally Posted by Ramura_Sono

That's not really a tank only thing though. "Sometimes feels like dps are only necessary to beat enrages. Other than that they're just there to increase efficiency in most content it seems."

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It's not just a matter of proportions, but also quantity, though. Even now, a tank is vital. It's just the actual gameplay that goes into being vital that is lackluster compared to DPS. If we consider, on a mechanical level, the general number of decisions and the quality and quantity of button-presses that go into them --as ridiculous as a perfect measure of either may be to try to find, you should get the gist of my meaning here-- those tank responsibilities amount to far less of anything conveyable into enjoyable skill-gap than do those of most DPS. And that's not to say DPS are any pinnacle; far from it. They, too, are arguably lackluster.

To take an extreme example, tank, healer, and DPS responsibilities could amount to hitting a Blue button, a Green button, and a Red button respectively, and --those buttons having the same value-- each would be equally uniquely valuable. Alternatively, all three could each be involved in far more engaging mechanics arguably classifiable as "tank", "healer", and "DPS" tasks and they'd have less unique value or responsibility (as a portion), and yet far more to do in their respective roles, and would probably reach far higher engagement.

Tank's a low reward role. You're sort of like the group slave in that the healer sets the pace, can pull the mobs and holds the groups life in their hands, while you have to do as you're told and keep up, or they'll make you keep up. Dps get a much more engaging rotation and do the real damage, with far less responsibility. You're like a walking mob magnet with a bland, boring wet noodle rotation who actually has little impact on the run in most cases. You also make an ideal target to blame for others mistakes (healer does have this problem too) "wtf use cooldowns", "pull more", "don't pull so much", "wait ffs", "go ffs".

It just doesn't have much appeal. Unlike some other MMO's you're not a juggarnaut. You're not the group leader. Your skill doesn't amount to that much. We're not even allowed self-sufficiency in our toolkit unless you're a PLD, 6 seconds of a Bloodbath copy on War is considered so OP it has to be locked to having a party member in range. Blue slave dps with occasional defensive cd is hardly a dream job.

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Originally Posted by SamRF

Hey Vulcann, how you doing?



You can ask the tank those very same questions. Who are you to decide I'm not allowed to pull more while I keep everyone alive?

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because its literally the tanks job to tank and hold aggro, so you are the one the onus is on to not be a crybaby if the tank isn't pulling up to your liking.

deal with it or find a group that will let you play how you want.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Why are we pretending that the expectations Sam is mentioning are the rarity, not the norm?

Big pulls are the norm. Tanks not wasting their party's time is the norm.

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because he/she is the rarity. Tanks pull and have aggro tools they have had these tools since the beginning. you signed up for a Duty roulette with randoms so YOU the ones whining have the be the adaptable ones. YOU the whining ones have to deal with it. get over yourself and your needs.

the onus is on you to deal with it or find a static group that you can roulette with.

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Originally Posted by SamRF

Yes I'm not talking about these scenarios. You probably shouldn't pull more here I agree (except point 3 maybe, depending on the instance difficulty and gear)



I agree that those extra mobs I pull will be my responsibilty and I will bring the mobs to you so you'll take aggro no matter what during your AoE rotation. If it leads to deaths, then by all means complain and get upset and kick me.

Like I've said before, healers pulling ahead of tank usually happens in faceroll content where tanks are redundant anyway.

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Nope, I ain't taking them for a reason. They are your responsiblity, full stop. You take the auto attacks, I am not going to tank those until I am good and ready to when I have the cooldowns for them. You want to be an idiot healer that grabs adds... cool, I'll just move so my AoEs don't hit those adds and you can eat the dirt and then waist the whole groups time even more by wiping. You say faceroll content, but unfortunately not everyone is going to face roll it when 99% of the time healers don't even take the time to look at everyone's gear. Tanks are required to look at gear as the dungeon starts. Get back and let the tank pull cause you pulling as a healer is putting the party at risk of wiping because you are just impatient.

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Originally Posted by BarretOblivion

Tanks are required to look at gear as the dungeon starts..

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I can't remember the last time I actually looked at gear.

If they're high enough for the roulette, they're high enough for the wall.

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Originally Posted by BarretOblivion

.. cool, I'll just move so my AoEs don't hit those adds and you can eat the dirt and then waist the whole groups time even more by wiping.

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This seems very childish behavior to me. Kind of proves my point that it's an ego issue and not based on the team's best interest and purpose.

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Originally Posted by BarretOblivion

You say faceroll content, but unfortunately not everyone is going to face roll it when 99% of the time healers don't even take the time to look at everyone's gear.

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It's faceroll content because the healer literally doesn't or barely need(s) to heal the tank when they pull 1 group at a time. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out.

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Originally Posted by SamRF

This seems very childish behavior to me. Kind of proves my point that it's an ego issue and not based on the team's best interest and purpose.



It's faceroll content because the healer literally doesn't or barely need(s) to heal the tank when they pull 1 group at a time. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out.

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I mean it can also be argued that it is in fact, ego that a healer or dps races ahead to pull more for the tank instead of allowing them to set a pace they are comfortable with. Personally I always run wall to wall, but everyone had their own challenges when it comes to tanking, whether it be anxiety, comfort zone or whatever else. It can be considered quite disrespectful for another, much the way healers can get offended when PLDs clemency themself instead of letting the healer make use of their toolkit. Sometimes it is as Barret says that the CDs aren't there, where certain mobs have mini busters or can buff themself, that they do not have appropriate mitigation for e.g. The Twinning.

Many tanks are against it, simple because it is some of the small amount of agency left in the role and no body likes people stepping on their turf. While if you barely need to heal the tank, then means you can get some more damage out to speed it up instead of running ahead of the tank.

It's better for newer / inexperienced / anxious tanks if party members actually communicate, there is a chat function in game. Instead of running ahead without any words, you could try explaining: "there is another pack ahead, you can easily grab that one as well" which offers a bit more reassurance and has a higher chance of promoting more confidence for that tank player.

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Originally Posted by BarretOblivion

Nope, I ain't taking them for a reason. They are your responsiblity, full stop. You take the auto attacks, I am not going to tank those until I am good and ready to when I have the cooldowns for them. You want to be an idiot healer that grabs adds... cool, I'll just move so my AoEs don't hit those adds and you can eat the dirt and then waist the whole groups time even more by wiping. You say faceroll content, but unfortunately not everyone is going to face roll it when 99% of the time healers don't even take the time to look at everyone's gear. Tanks are required to look at gear as the dungeon starts. Get back and let the tank pull cause you pulling as a healer is putting the party at risk of wiping because you are just impatient.

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You're actually the one putting the group in danger of wiping because you are refusing to do your job by your own admission.

New players tend to avoid tanking in any game, because of the role's perceived difficulty/responsibility, so there's always less people picking it up. Even players who could potentially love it, often need to get over certain fears before they actually try it out.

On the other hand, since the current state of FFXIV tanks is ironically anything but challenging and impactful, veterans and other people who've gravitated towards tanks because they find those aspects attractive are leaving, due to SHB gutting any complexity from tank jobs and role's mechanics themselves.

SE's mistake is thinking that dumbing the role down will make more people try tanking and stay. In reality people will still steer away from the role, simply because of its reputation and how it puts them in the spotlight, while reducing complexity also removes what keeps those who actually tried it engaged. Basically SE is attempting to make tank jobs appeal to people who dislike tanking and while it works for a little bit, those people will just get bored after a while and go back to DPS jobs and those actually predisposed towards tanking are left with unfulfilling, shallow crap which also makes them leave.

They need to realize that the appeal of tanks(and healers) is the responsibility. Trying to minimize this aspect removes an important niche that part of the player-base seeks and it won't attract the others for long either. People who "just want to do their thing" already play the DPS role - why would they switch over to something that offers far less variety in playstyle and aesthetics?

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

You're actually the one putting the group in danger of wiping because you are refusing to do your job by your own admission.

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My job is to tank in a dungeon the appropriate amount of adds that I feel is optimal baised off of the groups performance. If I feel like DPS is too low, I am going to pull medium. If I feel as if the healer isn't keeping me healthy enough to where I need to use more cooldowns than I should be I'll pull medium.

When a healer ignores a tank and rushes ahead to pull adds, yes, that is the HEALER putting the party at risk. Go on healer, pull a boss or an add that can quickly kill you. There is a reason good healers want the least amount of damage for themselves to take so they only need to heal 1 person. Again, you want to be an idiot and pull more than I am pulling for a reason... kiss the dirt and learn your lesson. Impatience is not the same as being optimal. Optimal means taking into consideration the things around you rather than looking at an eyehole of yourself thinking "yeah everything is fine on my screen".

I had plenty of times a healer pulled extra and we wiped because they got overzelous and I told them I was out of cooldowns for reasons, but NOPE GOTTA PULL EVERYTING HERPADITY HERP!
Priority to guage how the group is doing is not the healer's job, that is the tank's job. A tank can quickly tell if DPS is enough to warrent massive pulls baised of their cooldown timers and usages directly. I can also tell how a healer is doing baised off how low they like pushing my HP values, and I feel as if its too risky, oh well, deal with medium pulls.

If your healer is pulling more mobs for you then you've misjudged your healers skills and should tank up and do the job people want you to.

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Originally Posted by BarretOblivion

My job is to tank in a dungeon the appropriate amount of adds that I feel is optimal baised off of the groups performance. If I feel like DPS is too low, I am going to pull medium. If I feel as if the healer isn't keeping me healthy enough to where I need to use more cooldowns than I should be I'll pull medium.

When a healer ignores a tank and rushes ahead to pull adds, yes, that is the HEALER putting the party at risk. Go on healer, pull a boss or an add that can quickly kill you. There is a reason good healers want the least amount of damage for themselves to take so they only need to heal 1 person. Again, you want to be an idiot and pull more than I am pulling for a reason... kiss the dirt and learn your lesson. Impatience is not the same as being optimal. Optimal means taking into consideration the things around you rather than looking at an eyehole of yourself thinking "yeah everything is fine on my screen".

I had plenty of times a healer pulled extra and we wiped because they got overzelous and I told them I was out of cooldowns for reasons, but NOPE GOTTA PULL EVERYTING HERPADITY HERP!
Priority to guage how the group is doing is not the healer's job, that is the tank's job. A tank can quickly tell if DPS is enough to warrent massive pulls baised of their cooldown timers and usages directly. I can also tell how a healer is doing baised off how low they like pushing my HP values, and I feel as if its too risky, oh well, deal with medium pulls.

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That's a lot of (blatantly untrue) nonsense when you already said you'd cause the wipe by moving "so [your] AoEs don't hit those adds."


That's great that you want to punish the healer by not hitting the adds. Meanwhile, the DPS who are doing their job and killing things are most assuredly going to rip off the healer with their own AoE skills and are absolutely going to be right to say "hey tank, how come youre not holding threat?" and then kick you when your answer is "because im mad at the healer."

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Originally Posted by BarretOblivion

My job is to tank in a dungeon the appropriate amount of adds that I feel is optimal baised off of the groups performance.

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While it is true that there are some rare cases where pulling smaller can be more optimal (assuming you're tracking your entire party's cooldowns and the timings therein coincidentally allow for such), in the vast majority of situations where the healer would ever bother pulling for you, it's because you've misjudged what that appropriate amount is.

Now, if you've got a DPS who refuses to AoE and they're assuming they can spam Cure II to get your through the same things you did with cooldowns and only 2 packs as with no cooldowns and 3, they're the idiot. But, that's the rarer case.

The question of what to do if healers or dps pull for you has been done to death and is irrelevant to the thread topic.

The reason why the idea of healers or dps pulling irritates tanks is it encroaches on the tanking role. The reason why tanks keeping themselves up with Clemency spam irritates healers is not because healers are ever so concerned about opportunity cost and impact on their tank's big big numbers, but because it encroaches on the healing role. Like what, you don't think I can heal this well enough? When WARs were outdpsing BRDs in ARR, that was seen as encroaching on the dps role. It's a nice feeling to be able to 'carry' and fill in for an area of weakness in another role, but it also makes that role become redundant.

Either everyone should be allowed to be able to cross-compensate, or nobody should be able to. If we want dps players to be absolutely critical to the success or failure of a dps check by scaling back tank and healer damage output, then the same thinking should be applied to other roles. If your tank dies, the mobs should oneshot everyone else and cause an instant wipe with no hope of recovery. If your tank doesn't position well, then either you die to the mechanic or your dps can't optimise well enough to pass the check. Healing kind of has that built in already, in that timing errors and deaths cause wipes.

In contrast, if we want to make tanking checks super soft and fluffy so that the mobs hit everyone with pillows while waiting for the tank to be rezzed and healed, then tanks should be able to provide themselves with self-sustain and put out damage that makes the stragglers in the dps department look up in awe. You want to carry? So do we. And guess what happens when you move that carry potential away from what has historically been the most tryhard role in the trinity? We switch. Go figure.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

The question of what to do if healers or dps pull for you has been done to death and is irrelevant to the thread topic.

The reason why the idea of healers or dps pulling irritates tanks is it encroaches on the tanking role. The reason why tanks keeping themselves up with Clemency spam irritates healers is not because healers are ever so concerned about opportunity cost and impact on their tank's big big numbers, but because it encroaches on the healing role. Like what, you don't think I can heal this well enough? When WARs were outdpsing BRDs in ARR, that was seen as encroaching on the dps role. It's a nice feeling to be able to 'carry' and fill in for an area of weakness in another role, but it also makes that role become redundant.

Either everyone should be allowed to be able to cross-compensate, or nobody should be able to. If we want dps players to be absolutely critical to the success or failure of a dps check by scaling back tank and healer damage output, then the same thinking should be applied to other roles. If your tank dies, the mobs should oneshot everyone else and cause an instant wipe with no hope of recovery. If your tank doesn't position well, then either you die to the mechanic or your dps can't optimise well enough to pass the check. Healing kind of has that built in already, in that timing errors and deaths cause wipes.

In contrast, if we want to make tanking checks super soft and fluffy so that the mobs hit everyone with pillows while waiting for the tank to be rezzed and healed, then tanks should be able to provide themselves with self-sustain and put out damage that makes the stragglers in the dps department look up in awe. You want to carry? So do we. And guess what happens when you move that carry potential away from what has historically been the most tryhard role in the trinity? We switch. Go figure.

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Speak for yourself, the reason i would prefer paladins not use clemency is because the lost dps from clemency makes the dungeon longer. I don't really give a crap about it "encroaching on the healer role." In fact, if a tank is using cooldowns properly and everyone is melting things, fairy heals and recitation excog are the only heals needed to get through a wall to wall pull at cap. But, i guess you only play with healers who prefer to spam basic gcd heals and keep the tank at 100% health at all times?

If a healer or dps getting to a trash pack rustles your jimmies so hard, you should probably make an effort to get there before them. Or, switch roles, if you don't have it in you to understand that other players also have a say in how fast the dungeon goes.

The only bards that were getting outdpsed by warriors were super bad bards. The same is true today, tanks can still outdamage dps players that don't have a clue what they're doing.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

While it is true that there are some rare cases where pulling smaller can be more optimal (assuming you're tracking your entire party's cooldowns

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Now that would be some mad tank user I want in my squad

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Originally Posted by Lyth

The reason why the idea of healers or dps pulling irritates tanks is it encroaches on the tanking role. The reason why tanks keeping themselves up with Clemency spam irritates healers is not because healers are ever so concerned about opportunity cost and impact on their tank's big big numbers, but because it encroaches on the healing role. Like what, you don't think I can heal this well enough? When WARs were outdpsing BRDs in ARR, that was seen as encroaching on the dps role. It's a nice feeling to be able to 'carry' and fill in for an area of weakness in another role, but it also makes that role become redundant.

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My role, as healer, was to best support the party through the dungeon.

When Total Eclipse spam amounted to less than Holy spam, atop being the more limited resource, I'd have encouraged PLDs to Clemency spam. Heck, I might be annoyed if they refused to ever do so. It was 1200 relative healing potency that allowed for my 168 relative potency AoE and stun vs. their relative 88 potency.

When Clemency could only be used in a narrow window and at opportunity cost of a 375-potency AoE, however, that's a waste that makes it harder for me to support the party through the dungeon by doing the most I can, in the context of the party, with each GCD.

"Encroachment" had nothing to do with it. I need to feel engaged, which is best served by a certain range of control -- enough to allow for prediction and deliberate action, but not so much as to preclude* would-be interactions entirely.

(*Let's consider this as referring only to those interactions which wouldn't just be replaced with something going in a more preferable manner, such as the same pull, more or less, being executed a much more singular, clean manner rather than varying shades of messiness. These are things like using your party as extensions of yourself to better perform tank tasks, rather than cutting off those would-be limbs by, say, refusing to accept their kiting ranged mobs into position without taking or losing damage. One just makes gameplay haphazard and therefore reduced the perceived skill ceiling by muddying it with chance. The other is an increased skill ceiling that makes use of others atop your own toolkit.)

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Either everyone should be allowed to be able to cross-compensate, or nobody should be able to. If we want dps players to be absolutely critical to the success or failure of a dps check by scaling back tank and healer damage output, then the same thinking should be applied to other roles. If your tank dies, the mobs should oneshot everyone else and cause an instant wipe with no hope of recovery. If your tank doesn't position well, then either you die to the mechanic or your dps can't optimise well enough to pass the check. Healing kind of has that built in already, in that timing errors and deaths cause wipes.

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While I'd generally agree with the principle, this is another case where the reductionist option is a bit too tasty to the devs, despite its undoubtedly ill effects down the lines, that I'd dare offer it to them, mostly because it leans to heavily on, for lack of a better term, negative value. Worse, it offers them the "fairness" excuse for gutting even more gameplay, to the detriment of everyone. Shared misery does not progress make. Instead, we're led down the path to something along the lines of "Why am I valuable, despite just idling here? Because if I'm not here, you all die to a compositional check. I'm therefore the most important person in this party. Now let me get back to my Netflix."

"Boring task A must be done consistently by its relevant <bored task slave A> or everyone dies" does not make task A any more appealing. Value shouldn't be formed primarily by holding gameplay hostage. Co-dependence can be a good thing to a degree (i.e. where it fosters interactions, enjoyable from each of the perspectives participating in it), but it should never be used in place of gameplay that would be enjoyable in itself. Give me more to intercept. Make me care about my positioning and my angles. Give me that active mitigation. Give me trade-offs of damage and defense. But don't leave me with the same 3-5 brain-numbing pseudo-tasks alone and expect me to be happy about it just because there's more "at stake". That amounts, in essence, to little more than "Press this button once per second or the world blows up. Only you can do it!!!"

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Originally Posted by Lyth

In contrast, if we want to make tanking checks super soft and fluffy so that the mobs hit everyone with pillows while waiting for the tank to be rezzed and healed, then tanks should be able to provide themselves with self-sustain and put out damage that makes the stragglers in the dps department look up in awe. You want to carry? So do we. And guess what happens when you move that carry potential away from what has historically been the most tryhard role in the trinity? We switch. Go figure.

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:: Altogether fair. Agreed. Though luckily those aren't the only two options available to us.

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Originally Posted by Minnel

Now that would be some mad tank user I want in my squad

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Before I became a mentor, I assumed that was at least sort of the norm for would-be mentors. I had count-down macros on my 12-button I'd hit whenever seeing a Bene/Raging/Deployment Tactics/Holmgang/etc. just to set off Windows timers a CD-minus-5-seconds later. (Eventually, I started tracking them more instinctively -- knowing that you'd have Raging and Ley Lines only once 5 seconds wasn't all that useful anyways for chainpulling, and I hadn't bothered with the stuff back in ARR when it mattered more anyways-- and moved my markers and waymarkers over to that more comfortable position.)

Boy was I sadly mistaken.

As someone who has never tanked and doesn't really want to tank, I have to say it has little to do with the responsibility of the role. I will say I'm a bit intimidated by the job as a controller user since I don't feel like there's an easy way to target specific enemies quickly and efficiently, but it's something that I'm sure I'd figure out with practice.

The main reason I don't tank is because none of the current tanks are aesthetically or stylistically appealing to me. I have 0 interest in heavy armor classes in RPGs. If there ever comes a day where a magic tank or agility tank is made, then I might feel obligated to check them out.

The DPS role gets to benefit from 3 major styles (Melee, Ranged, and Caster), why can't we get a light armor or magic tank and a melee or physical ranged healer?

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Originally Posted by Canadane

If your healer is pulling more mobs for you then you've misjudged your healers skills and should tank up and do the job people want you to.

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If they pull more mobs, they clearly want to tank them - and should be allowed to do so.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

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I'm not talking about the textbook, face-saving, intellectually dishonest answer that typically gets parroted out as the reason. You can't control other players, but you can control yourself. Someone truly interested in efficiency would just take it in stride and push through more dps in response. I do this all the time; it takes a lot less effort than getting hot under the collar. Good tanks and healers are fluid like that. Unless pushing dps in place of spamming heals interrupts your netflix watching of course (what, are we still in the same instance?!)

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

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I just want consistency. We seem to be removing ways in which tanks impact gameplay because, gosh, we don't want to inconvenience other players if the tank is bad. But at the same time, we seem to want to give dps the lions share of impact when it comes to deciding whether we clear a check or not. And that's my point. People who pick tank do so because they're type A personalities that want both the responsibility and impact. It shows a fundamental lack of understanding on what drives people into these roles on the side of the development team.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I just want consistency. We seem to be removing ways in which tanks impact gameplay because, gosh, we don't want to inconvenience other players if the tank is bad. But at the same time, we seem to want to give dps the lions share of impact when it comes to deciding whether we clear a check or not. And that's my point. People who pick tank do so because they're type A personalities that want both the responsibility and impact. It shows a fundamental lack of understanding on what drives people into these roles on the side of the development team.

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And yet we still get blamed for failing the DPS check, not the DPS,because our damage is too low or we aren’t giving it our all, or some other excuse to dunk on us instead of the DPS. Odd how that works.

With how much Blame and Inconvenience we tanks seem to cause at least to some people, maybe we should delete the role.

Oh wait no that means the blame goes over to the healers

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Originally Posted by MerlinCross

And yet we still get blamed for failing the DPS check, not the DPS,because our damage is too low or we aren’t giving it our all, or some other excuse to dunk on us instead of the DPS. Odd how that works.

With how much Blame and Inconvenience we tanks seem to cause at least to some people, maybe we should delete the role.

Oh wait no that means the blame goes over to the healers

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If someones blaming the tank for a failed dps check, they either know the tank is sat with a thumb up their arse or theyre just a bad player throwing blame around. With how simplified the tank rotations are you dont even need to be giving it your all to avoid the ire of being blamed for a dps check

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Originally Posted by MerlinCross

And yet we still get blamed for failing the DPS check, not the DPS,because our damage is too low or we aren’t giving it our all, or some other excuse to dunk on us instead of the DPS. Odd how that works.

With how much Blame and Inconvenience we tanks seem to cause at least to some people, maybe we should delete the role.

Oh wait no that means the blame goes over to the healers

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Can we stop this stupid bs of "oh woe is me, everyone is always blaming my role for everything and hating on us, when it's everyone else's fault!"? Healers do this a lot as well, perhaps even more so, but regardless - it's not a thing. It doesn't happen. Stop it. You're just making yourself look like a whiny baby.

Everyone screws up and everyone gets blamed for party's failures - sometimes deservedly, sometimes unjustly. Yes, some idiots will pass the blame to anyone else, but it's not role-exclusive by any means. You're not an effing martyr for playing tank/healer.

That's probably another part of why people don't want to play support roles - they hear everywhere about how tough it is, how everyone will hate on them, despite it not being even remotely true - just like the supposed difficulty.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I'm not talking about the textbook, face-saving, intellectually dishonest answer that typically gets parroted out as the reason. You can't control other players, but you can control yourself. Someone truly interested in efficiency would just take it in stride and push through more dps in response. I do this all the time; it takes a lot less effort than getting hot under the collar. Good tanks and healers are fluid like that. Unless pushing dps in place of spamming heals interrupts your netflix watching of course (what, are we still in the same instance?!)

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You won't see a healer get mad when DPS uses Second Wind or Warrior uses Nascent Flash or Equilibrium. I'm pretty sure there are some dungeons Warrior can clear with litteraly 0 heals from healer wall to wall because of its self healing.

Of course healers won't get annoyed when you self heal with oGCDs because they know you're playing well and are increasing efficiency. This is not the case with Clemency, which is I think why it frustrates when it's used when unnecessary.

Basically what it is, you do your best as healer to dps as much as possible (increase efficiency) and heal only when necessary, only to see all that "effort" and dps go to waste when you see that Clemency. It takes extra effort edge healing and you basically get repaid by getting your dps gain wasted due to them wasting their GCD while you likely had oGCDs or instant casts ready. This is not at all the case with non-healer oGCD healing because that doesn't waste dps, it may increase it instead.

In other words, it's the fact that your efforts in efficiency get nullified because the PLD decided to Clemency. I really think that's the main reason why Clemency is so frustrating, not the "encroachment of the healer role".

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

As someone who has never tanked and doesn't really want to tank, I have to say it has little to do with the responsibility of the role. I will say I'm a bit intimidated by the job as a controller user since I don't feel like there's an easy way to target specific enemies quickly and efficiently, but it's something that I'm sure I'd figure out with practice.

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Controller is not an issue for tanking, using L2 + R1 or R2 + L1 makes targeting a lot more fluid. Of course it does have it's drawbacks, targeting the wrong add on occasion if the arena is super busy with mobs, but it's effectively the same as tab targeting for kb/m users. But tanking in general does takes some practice like anything in game.

It's actually a trust issue. If you're not playing well, people generally don't care about the specifics. They just care that you're not up to snuff. Most players lack the insight to correct their own mistakes, let alone yours. Especially on the level of content that you're talking about.

But when you see a Paladin slow cast healing themselves back up, there's a bit of a subtext communicated that you're not healing enough. Likewise, when you see other players pulling for you as a tank, there's kind of a subtext that you're not pulling quickly enough. It's passive aggressive, and that's absolutely what people are reacting to. Anyone who claims to be only motivated on benevolent higher principles in this regard either lacks an understanding of fundamental human behaviour (including their own), or is just claiming otherwise to save face.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I'm not talking about the textbook, face-saving, intellectually dishonest answer that typically gets parroted out as the reason. You can't control other players, but you can control yourself. Someone truly interested in efficiency would just take it in stride and push through more dps in response. I do this all the time; it takes a lot less effort than getting hot under the collar. Good tanks and healers are fluid like that. Unless pushing dps in place of spamming heals interrupts your netflix watching of course (what, are we still in the same instance?!)

I just want consistency. We seem to be removing ways in which tanks impact gameplay because, gosh, we don't want to inconvenience other players if the tank is bad. But at the same time, we seem to want to give dps the lions share of impact when it comes to deciding whether we clear a check or not. And that's my point. People who pick tank do so because they're type A personalities that want both the responsibility and impact. It shows a fundamental lack of understanding on what drives people into these roles on the side of the development team.

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I mean, who says i'm saying anything in the dungeon about it? I can find something stupid and not say anything, lmao. But, hey it's easy to dismiss something as intellectually dishonest, right?

The majority of my casts in a dungeon are art of war and broil, so idk where you get the idea that i don't push dps.


Also, "type A personalities" bro, some people just like aesthetics.

You should try savage or extreme (mostly savage, tbh) if you want responsibility or impact in any roll. Face roll dungeons and normal mode trials/ raids aren't where you're gonna find it.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

It's actually a trust issue. If you're not playing well, people generally don't care about the specifics. They just care that you're not up to snuff. Most players lack the insight to correct their own mistakes, let alone yours. Especially on the level of content that you're talking about.

But when you see a Paladin slow cast healing themselves back up, there's a bit of a subtext communicated that you're not healing enough. Likewise, when you see other players pulling for you as a tank, there's kind of a subtext that you're not pulling quickly enough. It's passive aggressive, and that's absolutely what people are reacting to. Anyone who claims to be only motivated on benevolent higher principles in this regard either lacks an understanding of fundamental human behaviour (including their own), or is just claiming otherwise to save face.

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Actually that's fair. I think I agree with you that it will often be interpreted as passive agressive.

It's still misguided imo and lacks virtue (if that's the right word for it, idk). Should we really indulge in the first instinctively human reaction, when it goes against the purpose of the group? Imo no, but I get that you'll be less careful repressing that when playing a game with little real life stakes.

The fact that this community also encourages snowflake treatment and imo lacks humility doesn't help. I think this conversation would barely be up for debate if you'd swap this community with another game (WoW for example).

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

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Yeah, that doesn't happen for tanks anymore, and it actually gets worse in raid content with auto-positioning bosses and snore-fest mitigation. I don't really care what happens in dungeons, because the tank always has the option of racing ahead and pulling everything, and then they still get execute the basic elements of positioning, control, and movement. But it's still amusing that some people lack the insight about why tanks get upset when those gameplay elements get taken away, either by game design (raid content) or by other players because tanks aren't actually necessary (dungeon content).

I'm also a believer in giving every post the rhetorical response it deserves. Meet logic with logic, ethics with ethics, and emotion with emotion. A disingenuous response does not warrant a serious reply.