As a dungeon runner...

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Originally Posted by SamRF

There may not be a problem with it, but don't you just think the vast majority of players will enjoy content better if it poses at least a decent amount of challenge, something that isn't too far off of what was intended at release?

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I cannot speak for the "vast majority" of people, but considering the direction that SE has gone, the answer is probably not.

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Originally Posted by linay

I cannot speak for the "vast majority" of people, but considering the direction that SE has gone, the answer is probably not.

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What direction though? New content doesn't compare in terms of faceroll difficulty with the instances I'm talking about having broken sync.

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Originally Posted by SamRF

What direction though? New content doesn't compare in terms of faceroll difficulty with the instances I'm talking about having broken sync.

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They've made the game easier in general: easy modes for solo instance, beast tribe quests, dungeons, raids, deep dungeons, crafting/gathering changes, etc. I don't see a reason for them to change the level sync to make doing dungeons harder. It's working as intended as far as I can tell.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Bleargh.
Stupid against the clock zergfests are not things I miss from that game.
I like the concept of mobs hitting harder / getting cool abilities but the whole speed rush thing is such a turn off.

Give me brutal dungeons with the slow, tactical approach... and a guild to run them with. :D

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They can't go back to the old 3 mob spreads anymore, they just don't work anymore in the context of the story.

Back in ARR and Heavensward they fit. You're still a fairly new adventurer and still human by most standards... But by the time you get to Stormblood the powers and abilities you wield are just god like. And now you're an extra dimensional traveler in Shadowbringers... and far too strong to have 3 minions being some kind of threat the way they were when you were still a newbie adventurer in ARR.

It's like it was in AD&D once you got past 12th level. And later in 3rd Edition level 20. You weren't some weak normal adventurer slaying goblins and orcs anymore... you were traversing the Planes of existence and fighting demons, devils, and demi gods.

That's where this game is now.

You quite literally would need to be facing an Army of Minions going into these dungeons just like you did in NWN Online.

That's why these dungeons make no sense anymore even though they do when you are lower level.

So it literally needs to be mass mob spam.

Sure there are other things you can throw in there. But in the context of how powerful the Warrior of Light as become over the expansions... and people and their characters in general... well it really has to be that way now, and the power level of the characters themselves shows it in their abilities and how over the top they really are these days.

I mean when I started in ARR, as Arcanist way back when you really were just a weak starting adventurer. Heck I felt pretty god like at the end of Heavensward due to the Dreadwyrm Trance.

Then along came the Stormblood expansion and they tried to shoe horn it back into the old newbie days when it just didn't fit anymore.

You really just have to be running something on the level of Castle Never now or it doesn't make sense in the context of the story anymore.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

They can't go back to the old 3 mob spreads anymore, they just don't work anymore in the context of the story.

Back in ARR and Heavensward they fit. You're still a fairly new adventurer and still human by most standards... But by the time you get to Stormblood the powers and abilities you wield are just god like. And now you're an extra dimensional traveler in Shadowbringers... and far too strong to have 3 minions being some kind of threat the way they were when you were still a newbie adventurer in ARR.

It's like it was in AD&D once you got past 12th level. And later in 3rd Edition level 20. You weren't some weak normal adventurer slaying goblins and orcs anymore... you were traversing the Planes of existence and fighting demons, devils, and demi gods.

That's where this game is now.

You quite literally would need to be facing an Army of Minions going into these dungeons just like you did in NWN Online.

That's why these dungeons make no sense anymore even though they do when you are lower level.

So it literally needs to be mass mob spam.

Sure there are other things you can throw in there. But in the context of how powerful the Warrior of Light as become over the expansions... and people and their characters in general... well it really has to be that way now, and the power level of the characters themselves shows it in their abilities and how over the top they really are these days.

I mean when I started in ARR, as Arcanist way back when you really were just a weak starting adventurer. Heck I felt pretty god like at the end of Heavensward due to the Dreadwyrm Trance.

Then along came the Stormblood expansion and they tried to shoe horn it back into the old newbie days when it just didn't fit anymore.

You really just have to be running something on the level of Castle Never now or it doesn't make sense in the context of the story anymore.

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The number of enemies have nothing to do with your power in the story. You go to a dungeon and kill whatever gets in your way. If you want, you can think that the rest ran away after seeing you kill their friends.

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Originally Posted by linay

The number of enemies have nothing to do with your power in the story. You go to a dungeon and kill whatever gets in your way. If you want, you can think that the rest ran away after seeing you kill their friends.

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You are trying to tell me that after fighting near god like beings, you can come back down and get beat up by a couple of ogres.

No man, its the same thing as it was in Dungeons and Dragons. There's a point to where you have to accept that the only way normal monsters will be able to beat you is if there's a ton of them... and then only maybe.

You can either be Human... or super human... you cannot be both and expect it to be believable.

Ironically this is also why the standard 8 man raids/trials don't make sense anymore because they just poof you to the end boss without ever having to fight his legions. At least in the old Alexander raids, they tried to simulate this somewhat in the run up which made it feel like you were traversing a long running metal hulk to get there and one of the Boss fights is actually just hordes of minions attacking you.

But the bottom line is... you are not human anymore, you passed that back in ending days of Heavensward.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

You are trying to tell me that after fighting near god like beings, you can come back down and get beat up by a couple of ogres.

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You don't get beat up by a couple of ogres. The story has never had you fail a dungeon yet.

None of what you said has any relevance to the story.

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Originally Posted by linay

You don't get beat up by a couple of ogres. The story has never had you fail a dungeon yet.

None of what you said has any relevance to the story.

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Not the point I was making.

I said... in order to provide a realistic scenario that fits the context of how powerful the characters really are at this point you are going to need the mass mob spam.

I know you WANT it to be otherwise, but the latest Dungeon really shows why it is not and cannot be.

Its a joke and why it failed to really grab anyone even though the coolness factor is there.

The characters are just too powerful for that kind of thing anymore. And ramping up the power of the Trash mobs only makes them just another boss mob fight and not very credulous.

In the other prior dungeons not only are the trash mobs a threat due to numbers... but they are a believable threat too.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

Not the point I was making.

I said... in order to provide a realistic scenario that fits the context of how powerful the characters really are at this point you are going to need the mass mob spam.

I know you WANT it to be otherwise, but the latest Dungeon really shows why it is not and cannot be.

Its a joke and why it failed to really grab anyone even though the coolness factor is there.

The characters are just too powerful for that kind of thing anymore. And ramping up the power of the Trash mobs only makes them just another boss mob fight and not very credulous.

In the other prior dungeons not only are the trash mobs a threat due to numbers... but they are a believable threat too.

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Again, none of that has anything to do with providing a realistic scenario. We go to these dungeons as part of the story, not because they have enemies that are "worthy" of our power.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

The characters are just too powerful for that kind of thing anymore. And ramping up the power of the Trash mobs only makes them just another boss mob fight and not very credulous.

In the other prior dungeons not only are the trash mobs a threat due to numbers... but they are a believable threat too.

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You're putting far too much meaning into it really. As interconnected they can be, gameplay and lore will never be the same thing. As Linay says, you go to X dungeon because the story tells you to, that's it.
Even more so, the WoL is a powerful adventurer indeed, but not so God-like as you think. Some job quests do make you think you're kind of unique to some extent, but our super power is being strong against Primals. Against other things... not much more than any adventurer really. That's why we are helped by adventurers, Trusts or CHAMPIONS FROM THE RIFT in most cases.

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Originally Posted by Mansion

You're putting far too much meaning into it really. As interconnected they can be, gameplay and lore will never be the same thing. As Linay says, you go to X dungeon because the story tells you to, that's it.
Even more so, the WoL is a powerful adventurer indeed, but not so God-like as you think. Some job quests do make you think you're kind of unique to some extent, but our super power is being strong against Primals. Against other things... not much more than any adventurer really. That's why we are helped by adventurers, Trusts or CHAMPIONS FROM THE RIFT in most cases.

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Except in the 80 PLD quest.

Someone finally just looks at you and goes "Holy @$!# you are strong and I stand no chance."

Honestly a moment I've been waiting for since forever.

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Originally Posted by DuskTS

As a guildhest runner I've been starved for content since ARR.

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Ha! Guildhests really would have been a great way to introduce mechanics; I don't know why they didn't continue with them.

You know that feeling you get when you see someone run away with a stack marker? (Glee, in my case). Or the feeling when someone stacks a personal aoe with a stack marker like in o12? (Rage, of course).

Or how about those weird "Follow you" markers from Nier/e6? Those could have done with an explanation.

Soak markers. Prey markers. Staggered overlapping aoes like in o9. Absorption Tethers like in Titania Ex. Chains like in Ifrit. Even Doom like in World of Darkness (hah). There are so many little things they could drill us on. Really, a wasted opportunity not keeping up with Guildhests.

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Originally Posted by Arete-Nomos

Ha! Guildhests really would have been a great way to introduce mechanics; I don't know why they didn't continue with them.

You know that feeling you get when you see someone run away with a stack marker? (Glee, in my case). Or the feeling when someone stacks a personal aoe with a stack marker like in o12? (Rage, of course).

Or how about those weird "Follow you" markers from Nier/e6? Those could have done with an explanation.

Soak markers. Prey markers. Staggered overlapping aoes like in o9. Absorption Tethers like in Titania Ex. Chains like in Ifrit. Even Doom like in World of Darkness (hah). There are so many little things they could drill us on. Really, a wasted opportunity not keeping up with Guildhests.

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If anything they should add those mechanics to the Hall of Novice and then force new players (maybe even returning players depending on the time) to go through it. The amount of people who still run from parties with a stack marker in endgame is appalling.

Most players don't even know what the HoN is. Much less where. (not to mention the nifty exp gain ring you get)

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Originally Posted by Arete-Nomos

You know that feeling you get when you see someone run away with a stack marker? (Glee, in my case). Or the feeling when someone stacks a personal aoe with a stack marker like in o12? (Rage, of course).

Or how about those weird "Follow you" markers from Nier/e6? Those could have done with an explanation.

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Tell me about it-- this legit legit happened yet again in one of my PUG groups today...

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Originally Posted by Cilia

I understand they're not to everyone's taste and the developers want to add more diverse content, but I too am a bit disappointed to the move of 1 dungeon per patch, never more.

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Are you even remotely aware of how much resources and intense manpower the Devs have to expend in developing a single dungeon?

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Originally Posted by Arete-Nomos

You know that feeling you get when you see someone run away with a stack marker?

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Likely not what you're talking about, but there are those moments that half the party is already dead and you're better off running away with the stack marker, sacrificing yourself to prevent a wipe.