Who else is worried about SE and Ast?

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Originally Posted by QooEr

this. they dumb everyhting down for "accessibility" but made ast opener and reopener horrible especially on controller. even things like the party UI get in the way cuz theres no way to track who already has a card and how long it lasts, so you also have to scroll and see who has what. That along with gcd uptime and mechanics make sleeve draw a nightmare to use

if anything i just want the old card system back so i never have to manually target anyone for cards ever again (just cycle the initial 6 cards in random order and balance fishing is gone ffs)

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Even as a Keyboard and Mouse player I find that sleeve draw turns into a frantic race to try and get the seals I want, the cards to the right people, and try to heal up or stay out of mechanics. I know I only play casual stuff but even there its a hinderance, and if you end up two AST in a party, then forget it cards everywhere and overwriting.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

I know I only play casual stuff but even there its a hinderance, and if you end up two AST in a party, then forget it cards everywhere and overwriting.

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Not to discredit your reply but this problem could easily be fixed with communication. "I place cards on tanks and healers, you place cards on dps"

No overriding, no problem.

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Originally Posted by Kummies

Not to discredit your reply but this problem could easily be fixed with communication. "I place cards on tanks and healers, you place cards on dps"

No overriding, no problem.

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Except melee/range split is a thing and 4 range dps would then make half the cards worse for 1 Ast while the other Ast has the problem of giving them to the least useful members in the party in terms of damage output.

Also based on the the two Ast thing it is most likely to occur in df so no way to guarantee anything.

I honestly not liking the new card system at all. I would take the old system back in a heartbeat but I know that's very unlikely. The new system is just very boring. If the new system was to try and reduce the "RNG" then it missed the mark. You're still having the same RNG dealing with seals now.

Also Malefic cast time being 1.45s and recast being 2.43s (for me) feels bad. I know why they did this but that doesn't change how it just feels bad to sit and cast that over and over without being able to start the "pre-cast" before the previous spell cast has finished like you can with WHM Glare.

In short, I'll never play AST as a healer in end-game progress. WHM and SCH still feel stronger with heals and over all damage. My other healing partner in my static started off this savage content on AST and changed to SCH because of this.

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Originally Posted by Krojack

I honestly not liking the new card system at all. I would take the old system back in a heartbeat but I know that's very unlikely. The new system is just very boring. If the new system was to try and reduce the "RNG" then it missed the mark. You're still having the same RNG dealing with seals now.

Also Malefic cast time being 1.45s and recast being 2.43s (for me) feels bad. I know why they did this but that doesn't change how it just feels bad to sit and cast that over and over without being able to start the "pre-cast" before the previous spell cast has finished like you can with WHM Glare.

In short, I'll never play AST as a healer in end-game progress. WHM and SCH still feel stronger with heals and over all damage. My other healing partner in my static started off this savage content on AST and changed to SCH because of this.

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With the malefic thing, I gotta disagree with you there chief, that's something I adore about AST, with how easy it is to weave in all their oGCDs (so long as you're not constantly targetswapping *cough*cardsysten*cough*) If there was SOMETHING about healers I wanted homogenized, it would be that. Especially for WHM, WHM is so fucked whenever they need to weave in abilities since they don't really have a dedicated button for it like SCH or a short cast time like AST and malefic.

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Originally Posted by Krojack

I honestly not liking the new card system at all. I would take the old system back in a heartbeat but I know that's very unlikely. The new system is just very boring. If the new system was to try and reduce the "RNG" then it missed the mark. You're still having the same RNG dealing with seals now.

Also Malefic cast time being 1.45s and recast being 2.43s (for me) feels bad. I know why they did this but that doesn't change how it just feels bad to sit and cast that over and over without being able to start the "pre-cast" before the previous spell cast has finished like you can with WHM Glare.

In short, I'll never play AST as a healer in end-game progress. WHM and SCH still feel stronger with heals and over all damage. My other healing partner in my static started off this savage content on AST and changed to SCH because of this.

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I actually like how you can weave the OGCD's with casting malefic it's got that rhythm and smoothness feeling. What I "Hate" with a burning passion is the card system as it stands. I'm not mad it got nerfed into the ground, I'm mad at how hard I have to work my ass off with it. I enjoy the difficulty in it but there's no feeling of reward or noticeable effort unless you're the type to constantly care about numbers. Yes I feel damn proud when I do good effort but it's just gives me a sick feeling in my stomach at the same time.

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Originally Posted by Krojack

Also Malefic cast time being 1.45s and recast being 2.43s (for me) feels bad. I know why they did this but that doesn't change how it just feels bad to sit and cast that over and over without being able to start the "pre-cast" before the previous spell cast has finished like you can with WHM Glare.

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Throwing my hat into the pile here too. The 1.5 cast on Malefic is heavenly, and I have long been begging they homogenize it across all three healers. White Mage is awful when it comes to weaving because you only have select few options. If no one needs a healer and you don't have Swift, your only option is Dia. Putting that faster cast on Glare would be amazing. Even if they knocked off some potency, I wouldn't even care.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Throwing my hat into the pile here too. The 1.5 cast on Malefic is heavenly, and I have long been begging they homogenize it across all three healers. White Mage is awful when it comes to weaving because you only have select few options. If no one needs a healer and you don't have Swift, your only option is Dia. Putting that faster cast on Glare would be amazing. Even if they knocked off some potency, I wouldn't even care.

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I'd like the other healers to get it too, however if they do, I think AST should have perma insta casts to their damage abilities and rework lightspeed or leave it as a healer free movement cooldown.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Throwing my hat into the pile here too. The 1.5 cast on Malefic is heavenly, and I have long been begging they homogenize it across all three healers.

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Only WHM would really play better from this, since SCH already has the ruin2+energy drain minigame for movement and weaving.
And that that point, why not just give WHM its own weaving gimmick?

If they make it like this :

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...25/unknown.png

If 120 DP is to week for weaving -> make the same like Ruin II so WHM can be happy =)

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Originally Posted by YusiKha

Only WHM would really play better from this, since SCH already has the ruin2+energy drain minigame for movement and weaving.
And that that point, why not just give WHM its own weaving gimmick?

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I'm under the impression that's what the lily's are supposed to be.

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Originally Posted by Heilstos

If they make it like this :

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...25/unknown.png

If 120 DP is to week for weaving -> make the same like Ruin II so WHM can be happy =)

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At two ticks this would be more potent to cast then Glare. Sure it might give a resemblance to a dps rotation but this would likely be too powerful of a weaving tool.

I've been concerned about AST since it's implementation.

It's trying to play in the middle of SCH and WHM, Shields and Regens. And it's done nothing but complicate balance between the three because of it.

It can't be a jack of all trades, master of none because no one would pick them.

It can't be overpowered because then SCH or WHM won't be picked.

The only real way to fix it is to release another healer and force AST to be either regen based or shield based and make the new healer the opposite.

Or REALLY double down on the buffing and then release a debuffing job (that USED to be SCH . . . )

I'm concerned about SE's ability to do much of anything that's a net positive for healers in general.

They are either unwilling or unable to commit the resources to getting them right, it's been a downward spiral pretty much since the end of Heavensward and until they give in and recruit people with both experience and direction for high end healer play, it's not going to get any better.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

I've been concerned about AST since it's implementation.

It's trying to play in the middle of SCH and WHM, Shields and Regens. And it's done nothing but complicate balance between the three because of it.

It can't be a jack of all trades, master of none because no one would pick them.

It can't be overpowered because then SCH or WHM won't be picked.

The only real way to fix it is to release another healer and force AST to be either regen based or shield based and make the new healer the opposite.

Or REALLY double down on the buffing and then release a debuffing job (that USED to be SCH . . . )

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Alternatively; give it a kit with both regens and shields. Then do the same to WHM and SCH, so we don't have regen/shield healers, we just have healers

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Originally Posted by YusiKha

Alternatively; give it a kit with both regens and shields. Then do the same to WHM and SCH, so we don't have regen/shield healers, we just have healers

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Agree with you.
Let the shield stack like regen.
If they need to nerf shield potency to let it stack then just do it.
WHM maybe can have access to party shield via Liliy.
AST already have access to shield via sect and maybe COpp can be adjusted to do opposite sect effect
SCH already have access to both shield and regen since AAR (even SS have 100 potency regen now)

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

I've been concerned about AST since it's implementation.

It's trying to play in the middle of SCH and WHM, Shields and Regens. And it's done nothing but complicate balance between the three because of it.

It can't be a jack of all trades, master of none because no one would pick them.

It can't be overpowered because then SCH or WHM won't be picked.

The only real way to fix it is to release another healer and force AST to be either regen based or shield based and make the new healer the opposite.

Or REALLY double down on the buffing and then release a debuffing job (that USED to be SCH . . . )

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I agree so much with this. There will never be real harmony among the three unless there’s a fourth option. Much like when SE added in a fourth tank to balance the options (they still have their own problems of course), healers also need the same. While healers as a whole is playable, there's a lot to be desired for in terms of gameplay and uniqueness.

AST took the biggest hit when SE changed their cars system and had the job in a horrible state on ShB release. Buffing AST's damage is not the answer IMO.

Adding a fourth option that blends with other healer comps would be the fix, instead of the devs playing russian roulette with who gets to be SCH's teammate next patch/expansion.

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Originally Posted by elioaiko

Much like when SE added in a fourth tank to balance the options (they still have their own problems of course)

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Adding a 4th tank wasn't the thing that balanced them, it was the trivialisation of Aggro.

WAR and DRK could generate large burst aggro at the start of a fight without losing much damage (WAR's fantastic Defiance+Unchained+Equilibrium, DRK's less-good DAPowerSlash+NoActionGritRemoval) while PLD had no way to compete and its DPS stance took an action to apply.
This separated the tanks into 2 categories: Pull Tanks (WAR/DRK) and Off Tanks (PLD/DRK).
The problem is that DRK was outclassed by its rivals in both categories, as WAR provided better damage output and PLD had much better group mitigation.
Then ShB's tank stances came and basically removed Aggro as a mechanic, so now each tank stands on its own merits, rather than being pidgeonholed into one of two categories, and so balance can be achieved easier.

Jobs being pidgeonholed into 2 distinct categories, and balance being hard to achieve because of it... Hmm... I wonder why that sounds so familiar...
The one that can flit between 2 categories being the most clunky to play, and the least played... Gosh, this sounds so familiar!

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Originally Posted by YusiKha

Adding a 4th tank wasn't the thing that balanced them, it was the trivialisation of Aggro.

WAR and DRK could generate large burst aggro at the start of a fight without losing much damage (WAR's fantastic Defiance+Unchained+Equilibrium, DRK's less-good DAPowerSlash+NoActionGritRemoval) while PLD had no way to compete and its DPS stance took an action to apply.
This separated the tanks into 2 categories: Pull Tanks (WAR/DRK) and Off Tanks (PLD/DRK).
The problem is that DRK was outclassed by its rivals in both categories, as WAR provided better damage output and PLD had much better group mitigation.
Then ShB's tank stances came and basically removed Aggro as a mechanic, so now each tank stands on its own merits, rather than being pidgeonholed into one of two categories, and so balance can be achieved easier.

Jobs being pidgeonholed into 2 distinct categories, and balance being hard to achieve because of it... Hmm... I wonder why that sounds so familiar...
The one that can flit between 2 categories being the most clunky to play, and the least played... Gosh, this sounds so familiar!

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I meant to balance the options you had to pick (like how more to pick from and not just two left if someone else is playing whatever job you like), not by how effective they are. But yeah you're right, the aggro change is what what made tanks stand better on their own.

And your point on pigeonholing is pretty spot on. The whole regen vs shield thing is what is causing so many issues with healers. They did admit this fault before ShB but I guess their still figuring things out.

I also think the problem is that there's no to way to make healing more interesting considering how the content is designed.

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Originally Posted by YusiKha

Alternatively; give it a kit with both regens and shields. Then do the same to WHM and SCH, so we don't have regen/shield healers, we just have healers

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That looks like the approach they're going for but the problem with that is that every healer then becomes a carbon copy of each other. What's the point?

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

That looks like the approach they're going for but the problem with that is that every healer then becomes a carbon copy of each other. What's the point?

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Distinctions can be made in ways other than just ‘has the ability to apply shields’ y’know?

Like with tanks - despite having a very similar mitigation kit, WAR’s increased self-healing and mitigation sets it aside from PLD’s party mitigation, which is set aside from GNB’s weaker-but-more-frequent shields, and DRK’s ‘only-worth-if-it-breaks’ TBN.
Different styles and specialisations, despite their similarities.

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Originally Posted by YusiKha

Adding a 4th tank wasn't the thing that balanced them, it was the trivialisation of Aggro.
Then ShB's tank stances came and basically removed Aggro as a mechanic, so now each tank stands on its own merits, rather than being pidgeonholed into one of two categories, and so balance can be achieved easier.

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Funny because at the start of Shadowbringer the Dev's specifically saying their design intent was for there two be two main tanks and two off tanks despite that not actually happening.

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Originally Posted by YusiKha

Distinctions can be made in ways other than just ‘has the ability to apply shields’ y’know?

Like with tanks - despite having a very similar mitigation kit, WAR’s increased self-healing and mitigation sets it aside from PLD’s party mitigation, which is set aside from GNB’s weaker-but-more-frequent shields, and DRK’s ‘only-worth-if-it-breaks’ TBN.
Different styles and specialisations, despite their similarities.

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Warrior currently has the worst mitigation IIRC (mostly due to Nascent Flash issues). And PLD is the king of self healing with Clemency.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Warrior currently has the worst mitigation IIRC (mostly due to Nascent Flash issues). And PLD is the king of self healing with Clemency.

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That would be Gunbreaker, actually. Warrior has the best self sustain with Equilibrium, Thrill and Nascent Flash. It can keep itself alive at no cost to its own damage which is pretty significant outside prog.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Warrior currently has the worst mitigation IIRC (mostly due to Nascent Flash issues). And PLD is the king of self healing with Clemency.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

That would be Gunbreaker, actually. Warrior has the best self sustain with Equilibrium, Thrill and Nascent Flash. It can keep itself alive at no cost to its own damage which is pretty significant outside prog.

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PLD is the one with the worst self-sustain, as their 'heal skill' requires a GCD and they have 1 less defensive cooldown (presumably to make up for their extra party cooldown)

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Originally Posted by YusiKha

PLD is the one with the worst self-sustain, as their 'heal skill' requires a GCD and they have 1 less defensive cooldown (presumably to make up for their extra party cooldown)

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Technically speaking, PLD is the one with the least efficient self-sustain, since it costs a GCD and a chunk of MP to use.
But it is the only one without a cooldown, so if DPS isn't a concern (healer is struggling, for instance) then PLD's is by far the best.

Healing-potency wise the tank with the worst self-sustain is probably DRK, which only has Souleater (full combo) and Abyssal Drain.
Before you say TBN, TBN is great, but not actual healing. The shield will disappear after 7s, and you can absolutely be whittled down by autoattacks that outdamage your Souleater + Abyssal Drain.

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Originally Posted by Volkaj

Technically speaking, PLD is the one with the least efficient self-sustain, since it costs a GCD and a chunk of MP to use.
But it is the only one without a cooldown, so if DPS isn't a concern (healer is struggling, for instance) then PLD's is by far the best.

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Though in content that actually matters (any content with an enrage), it's by far the least desirable 'sustain'

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Originally Posted by Volkaj

Healing-potency wise the tank with the worst self-sustain is probably DRK, which only has Souleater (full combo) and Abyssal Drain.
Before you say TBN, TBN is great, but not actual healing. The shield will disappear after 7s, and you can absolutely be whittled down by autoattacks that outdamage your Souleater + Abyssal Drain.

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I do count TBN as healing, same as I would Galvanise, Nocturnal Field, and Divine Benison. And DRK has the potential to 'heal' up 100% of their HP every minute, which is much better than any of the other tanks can boast, on top of the lifesteal from Souleater.
You won't find many DRKs, or many fights, where you can get that amount of usage of TBN. The potential is there though, and I don't think anybody in their right mind would say no to a Benediction on a 60s cooldown.

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Originally Posted by YusiKha

Though in content that actually matters (any content with an enrage), it's by far the least desirable 'sustain'



I do count TBN as healing, same as I would Galvanise, Nocturnal Field, and Divine Benison. And DRK has the potential to 'heal' up 100% of their HP every minute, which is much better than any of the other tanks can boast, on top of the lifesteal from Souleater.
You won't find many DRKs, or many fights, where you can get that amount of usage of TBN. The potential is there though, and I don't think anybody in their right mind would say no to a Benediction on a 60s cooldown.

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There's a difference between effective health and healing. TBN is effective health, it doesn't "heal you". It just provides more health for a little while, if the mob doesn't go through that shield it vanishes.

And if you want to talk about healing 100% of your health every minute, PLD has that in spades. Requiescat is on a 60s CD and provides 50% healing while it's up if you have max mana. So if you were in survival mode and popped that you could have 9000 potency worth of healing in 5 instant cast GCDs which is more than 100% of your HP.

That's assuming none of those Clemency's crit, which TBN can never do.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Warrior currently has the worst mitigation IIRC (mostly due to Nascent Flash issues). And PLD is the king of self healing with Clemency.

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The former simply isn't true - like at all
War's mitigation is the best for mobs, and second best to DRK for Boss fights.

I agree that Paladin has by far the best potential for self-healing, even if it isn't optimal most of the time.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

CLEMENCY

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That's great and all, but you're giving up 3300 attack potency to do that, while DRK gives up aboslutely nothing.
It's neat that PLD has that option, but it's not actually going to be used outside of drastic dungeon disastors or progression.

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Originally Posted by YusiKha

That's great and all, but you're giving up 3300 attack potency to do that, while DRK gives up aboslutely nothing.
It's neat that PLD has that option, but it's not actually going to be used outside of drastic dungeon disastors or progression.

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You're clearly ignoring the part where I said in emergency situations where survival is important.

A dead tank is a dead group. You'd be a fool to not use whatever tool you can to live.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

You're clearly ignoring the part where I said in emergency situations where survival is important.

A dead tank is a dead group. You'd be a fool to not use whatever tool you can to live.

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The problem is that in this game, if you are in hard content in emergency situation, then that means someone screwed up. Skill in this game is not only measured by DPS, but also by the players ability to keep things 100% under control.

It's just how the game's culture is. Think about 24 man content, where you might actually use clemency to save the run. Now, how skilled do you think the alliance as a whole is? If it's first week (the best time to heal the things IMO), then people are leaning. But if it has been months? I'd bet most people's kneejerk reaction is that the alliance is "bad", or at least "not good".

As long as emergencies are avoidable with fight knowledge, Clemency stands no chance.