5.0 Dark knight request: Delirium rework

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Originally Posted by Valic

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I sometimes i wonder if wont be better rework the job to a DPS, at least it Will be unique.

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Originally Posted by shao32

I sometimes i wonder if wont be better rework the job to a DPS, at least it Will be unique.

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Unique from tanks, perhaps, but only in that it's... no longer a tank.

From DPS, though? How exactly? By requiring that it steal healer rDPS for itself via HP-sacrifice skills? By just being as much an edgy SAM/DRG hybrid as it felt a PLD reskin in the past?

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Originally Posted by shao32

It was a small crittic to the current situation, at contrary to certain tanks and now healers no dps can be say is a clone of other or have copy pasted mechanics and since 5.0 show the devs dont really know/care how to handle DRK design properly as a tank meaby its better move it to the dps role where gameplay diversity is well keep.

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And? The copy-paste is just as prominent in DPS. There's not a single role that needs to vary so little from templates; it's just that the community openly accepts the reduced effort in balancing jobs that are actually distinct from each other and encourages homogeneity wherever they see a skill that performs better than their own in some regard. Even if the DPS role offers a bit more leniency than Tanks, as their toolkit exists more to synergize with itself than just act as a series of "press when" counter-mechanics, that's fundamental issue isn't going to change, so unless that DPS-DRK can be more distinct within the DPS role than HW-DRK was in the Tank role, it'd just be a few steps back and a mile or so left, its time all spent for no good reason.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Unique from tanks, perhaps, but only in that it's... no longer a tank.

From DPS, though? How exactly? By requiring stealing healer rDPS for itself? By just being as much an edgy SAM/DRG hybrid as it felt a PLD reskin in the past?

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It was a small crittic to the current situation, at contrary to certain tanks and now healers no dps can be say is a clone of other or have copy pasted mechanics and since 5.0 show the devs dont really know/care how to handle DRK design properly as a tank meaby its better move it to the dps role where gameplay diversity is well keep.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

And? The copy-paste is just as prominent in DPS. There's not a single role that needs to vary so little from templates; it's just that the community openly accepts the reduced effort in balancing jobs that are actually distinct from each other and encourages homogeneity wherever they see a skill that performs better than their own in some regard. Even if the DPS role offers a bit more leniency than Tanks, as their toolkit exists more to synergize with itself than just act as a series of "press when" counter-mechanics, that's fundamental issue isn't going to change, so unless that DPS-DRK can be more distinct within the DPS role than HW-DRK was in the Tank role, it'd just be a few steps back and a mile or so left, its time all spent for no good reason.

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each dps is a world from each other compared to WAR-DRK and in some small degree PLD, there is no dps that have a mechanic that has been blatlanty copy pasted on execution/recast and purpose on the entire role and the dps part of the tank toolkits can and should be to synergize with themself in a unique way independently of the limitation sice compared to a DPS job for obviously mitigation reasons like ironically did in the past, and not so far in fact, basically late SB all 3 tanks where unique and have almost the same dps, the biggest diference was only DRK don't having a raid aoe mitigation and WAR having single target utility.

the question is DRK has only saw mechanics nerfs and removals instead of adaptations and improvements since HW, the job has gone for worse since that in terms of desing to end what we called today a WAR with TBN as a meme while make me raise a question, should have DRK have a better future on the dps role? being a full dedicated improved version of the HW DRK as a dps? in the end is just a theorical question not a petition not a sugestion but more of "meaby" DRK have a better future on the DPS role since is the job has suffering gameplay mechanics degradation across the expansions for no aparent reasons when other jobs that have problems or cuestinable desings has just saw improvements and reinforce they identitys specially on the dps role. what is not good is allow this heavy gameplay homogeneity when there is no need for it, tank capability homogeneity is a think but the dps part of the job don't need this at all and well of course not but if the Dev team can't make DRK unique as a tank bcs whatever problem they seems to have with the job meaby as a theory it will be better to move the job to the DPS role, i personally don't want that bcs i loved DRK with all my soul as a tank on both HW and SB but seems the devs don't know what to do with it as a tank and the current version of the job is the proof.

While I feel Delirium like a low-cost IR, I'm more upset about the DRK is the only tank to have only one combo. I miss the first one Delirium so much, the animation, the way we don't only doing 1-2-3 ALL the fight.
And it's even worst since I like TBN, Flood / Edge of Shadow. But the job is just... Boring when you play it a lot.
Well, about Delirium...
It's just useless. It would have been better to do other thing, here, it's just a c/c from IR, but applied to the DRK. We know they liked FC so much they bring it to the DRK, and make us spamming it like the War mid-SB.
Why ? Just, why ?

I miss the DRK from HW so much. It was unique, flexible, and hard to master. If we could get it, with TBN, FoS and EoS, it would be the best thing for this tank.

IMO, ofc.

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Originally Posted by Azerhan

While I feel Delirium like a low-cost IR, I'm more upset about the DRK is the only tank to have only one combo. I miss the first one Delirium so much, the animation, the way we don't only doing 1-2-3 ALL the fight.

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I don't think DRK will ever get Delirium back as an attack, because the animation for that went to Interject.
But it could definitely use another combo attack. Even if that's technically homogenisation because then all tanks would have 2 combos to alternate, at least it wouldn't feel so mindless. (Power Slash would be nice to have back)

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

I don't think DRK will ever get Delirium back as an attack, because the animation for that went to Interject.
But it could definitely use another combo attack. Even if that's technically homogenisation because then all tanks would have 2 combos to alternate, at least it wouldn't feel so mindless. (Power Slash would be nice to have back)

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It would be mindless homogenisation if it was a copy of another second combo (so dot, dps buff or CD)
Just give it a different effect (Haste or Refresh? Maybe it could enhance the MP and HP recovery of the Souleater combo for X seconds?) or a different timer if it's a copy of another combo.

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Originally Posted by Azerhan

While I feel Delirium like a low-cost IR, I'm more upset about the DRK is the only tank to have only one combo. I miss the first one Delirium so much, the animation, the way we don't only doing 1-2-3 ALL the fight.

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I cant say anything about Heavensward DRK, but for later iteration you were basically doing soul eater combo practically aaaaaaaall the time. The enmity combo we had was barely ever used.
Mathemacitly speaking your apm is spread across all the skill more than before. It was so bad that people were complaining is using bloodspiller after TBN was worth it or not, was using TBN was even worth to use outside tank busters.

let's remember that DRK use to have a unique way to use his combos in the past so it won't be homogenisation per se, it would be nice if we recover that part of his identity.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

I cant say anything about Heavensward DRK, but for later iteration you were basically doing soul eater combo practically aaaaaaaall the time. The enmity combo we had was barely ever used.
Mathemacitly speaking your apm is spread across all the skill more than before. It was so bad that people were complaining is using bloodspiller after TBN was worth it or not, was using TBN was even worth to use outside tank busters.

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Combo potency for HW (on launch, at least) was something like Soul Eater (with Dark Arts) at 400, while it was 260 with no Arts. Power Slash was at 300 and Delirium was at 280.

Basically, Delirium was the in-between that was used when you needed to store up MP for DA (10% Int reduction didn't hurt, either!). While I do wish we could get a second combo for something, I can't really think of anything legitimate to fill that void at this point that wouldn't require a looot of changes, more than I'm willing to even try to think of lol.

A small bump to keep the thread active and hopefully getting a answer Next live letter ^^.

I really liked the idea proposed previously, as :
"While delirium is active, using edge of shadows or flood of shadows doesn't spend any MP. 11s duration. 90s cooldown."
That would be a nice spam window for both single target and aoe, and would raise the APM a bit. Also, give it the old dark art animation for maximum fanboy effect. :D

While at it, here's my ideas :

- TBN grants dark art as usual when broken, but it "grants the use of an abyssal drain free of cooldown, and it will be a direct/critical hit." instead. Raise abyss drain potency to 300.
This change doesn't affect single target dps at all, while providing a small bit of extra (critical) healing. It might be a bit too strong for multi-targets tho.

- Add to Quietus this effect : "reduces abyssal drain cooldown by 5s per enemy hit."
Yup I was one of those who totally enjoyed the whole TBH => Quietus => DA abyss drains in dungeons. It brings it back to an extend. Again a change which doesn't affect single target dps at all, and is entirely focused on multi-targets. If delirium is changed like above, nothing will go out of control.

- Add to dark mind : "Raises healing recieved by 15%."
Works with all sources of healing : whm/sch/ast, souleater, abyss drain, potions, etc. It makes it useful in all situations, especially when living dead is involved. I set it at 15% because warrior's thrill of battle is 20% every 90s. Gotta try to stay balanced somehow.

- Living dead : in my opinion is good enough. The problem comes from comparing it to hallowed ground, to which I would give a negative side, like adding a 8k MP cost.

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Originally Posted by Horobi

I really liked the idea proposed previously, as :
"While delirium is active, using edge of shadows or flood of shadows doesn't spend any MP. 11s duration. 90s cooldown."

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Edit: EoS does 500 potency. Bloodspiller does 300 potency over the average ppgcd, and lacks any Blood generation (and MP generation except during Delirium). You'd therefore be dealing over an extra 1000 potency per Delirium. What are you nerfing to compensate?

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Originally Posted by Horobi

TBN grants dark art as usual when broken, but it "grants the use of an abyssal drain free of cooldown, and it will be a direct/critical hit." instead. Raise abyss drain potency to 300.
This change doesn't affect single target dps at all, while providing a small bit of extra (critical) healing. It might be a bit too strong for multi-targets tho.

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You'll have removed choice and increased single target damage thus dealt by roughly 10% and AoE damage by 80%. All while offering some 550 potency of healing as often as every 15 seconds, amounting nearly three times Aurora's output over time. And you'd have done this when DRK tends to least need the healing.

What are you willing to remove to afford all that?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Since FoS and EoS have separate cooldowns, you'd be putting out an additional 800 potency every GCD, as compared to 300. What are you willing to remove in order to deal an extra 2200-2500 potency every 2 minutes?

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They don't - look at the skill tooltips, they say "Shares a recast timer with Edge/Flood of Shadow.".

Regardless, anyone who's proposing to just change "free BS" Delirium to "free Edge" Delirium, is missing the point on why current Delirium is shit in the first place(and to a degree what was an issue with Dark Arts in SB - as well as what was not). All it'd do would be replacing spamming BS hotkey with spamming Edge hotkey and frankly we already have that every 60 seconds when you dump your MP on buffs. Yes, it would increase the APM, but this APM would be empty, mindless and worst of all - concentrated in just a small window once again.
The only somewhat good part I could see is that it'd occasionally force you to spend some of your normal MP early in preparation for the window where Delirium lines up with 60 second buffs, since it would collide with your spending window, but it's still hardly engaging and would likely lead to a lot of complaints about how "clunky" it is.

Also auto directcrits are design cancer, gtfo with this.

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Originally Posted by Satarn

They don't - look at the skill tooltips, they say "Shares a recast timer with Edge/Flood of Shadow."

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Ahh, my mistake. Then it's only a sudden free extra >1000 potency per minute. Still problematic.

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Originally Posted by Satarn

Also auto directcrits are design cancer, gtfo with this.

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Personally, I'd be fine with them if only XIV did the obvious: proportionately increase the strength of effects with an excess of 100% chance. --> 130% crit chance = 130% crit chance (1.3*.5 = .65x damage bonus). Voila. No more wasted raid buffs, and reduced RNG dependence during burst.

How I feel with drk should
Delirium: Extend Living Shadow 10/6s and increase self 5% dps for 10s and recast 120s.
Living Shadow recast 60s.
Flood/edge become 1,5k mp.
Bloodweapon become 20s. During Delirium lose 5 lolbloodspiller/quietus and gain mp.
Abyssal drain recast time 10s/20s.

Think this way is less trouble for them to change.

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Originally Posted by Sawamura

How I feel with drk should
Delirium: Extend Living Shadow 10/6s and increase self 5% dps for 10s and recast 120s.
Living Shadow recast 60s.
Flood/edge become 1,5k mp.
Bloodweapon become 20s. During Delirium lose 5 lolbloodspiller/quietus and gain mp.
Abyssal drain recast time 10s/20s.

Think this way is less trouble for them to change.

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Does not fix the whole "one combo only" issue that DRK has...

I like the idea of reworking Delirium to intead of spamming GCD Bloodspiller/Quietus to spam oGCD Edge/Flood. I would also ask to rework Blood Weapon to fix GCD to 2s, to line up with every EoS/FoS and balance Eos/FoS potency over the potency gain of these changes.

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Originally Posted by LeoLupinos

I would also ask to rework Blood Weapon to fix GCD to 2s...

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We certainly wouldn't want SkS to ever be remotely worthwhile...

Tbh though, they should've gave Blood Weapon the same treatment as NINs Bushin, and maybe bring back it's haste effect again.

As for Delirium... I just don't want it to be a copy and paste fell cleave....

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

We certainly wouldn't want SkS to ever be remotely worthwhile...

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That's true. So let's remove the "fix 2s" and turn into grants skillspeed buff to be like 2.1s or something, allowing us to build some SS to reach 2s for that 11s window of delirium.

Another letter another time being complety ignored, i can't say im surprised at this point, i can see 5.2 being reselased and things still being the same.

Lol I mean, I can see this whole expansion going by without that many changes honestly. That is the DRK lifestyle at this point.

At the very least, I'm glad the ShB changes were not as bad as I initially thought.

The whole thing of "ups looks like they don't like the new copy pasted gameplay, oh well let's try next expansion" is highly unproffesional, mostly when they get tons of feedback about how we wanted heavensward gameplay back on Stormblood this shouldn't has been a thing from the begining but since they don't care about us they do whatever they want.

I wouldn't expect any tank changes at all until 6.0. Yoshi P seemed to have pretty clearly shown during LLs that devs are content with tanks and have no intention of fixing them any time soon. They're balanced and "functional", so clearly everything is great and it doesn't matter that they're about as entertaining to play as watching the paint dry. People who like getting an easy ride will still play them though, so it's working as intended by SE's book. They're so afraid of scaring people off by making tanks(and healers too) even remotely challenging, that they're gonna ride those roles into the ground.

Frankly the entire role has been a dumpster fire ever since SHB dropped, not just DRK and WAR, but also overall role changes and how utterly boring the tank-specific content mechanics have been.
Time to say "screw it" and switch to dps, maybe when ques go up they will realize the direction might not be so great(jk, they'd assume it's because things are too hard and double down).

While I agree that's probably they posture I consider it's not a justified one, first of all this don't match they actions, for example they rebalance again BRD to put party buffs to they songs, BRD didn't need the change per se and still they did the effort to please the playerbase, we can say the same of SAM and shoha and how they bring back removed skills for SCH 2 expansions in a row, between other stuff, same with WAR on 4.2 so there is not really a excuse for it and more important ppl need to stop being so conformist around DRK and his non-existed dev support around his gameplay this only will encourage them to make DRK even more mediocre and brainless and get a position of "let them complaint they will get tired soon"

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Originally Posted by shao32

Another letter another time being complety ignored, i can't say im surprised at this point, i can see 5.2 being reselased and things still being the same.

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I'm actually expecting 5.3 for DRK balance changes to happen... because DRK didn't really get any significant change in Stormblood until 4.3...

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

I'm actually expecting 5.3 for DRK balance changes to happen... because DRK didn't really get any significant change in Stormblood until 4.3...

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I doubt any balance change will happen with tanks due how they are and that's probably they prefer gameplay dissatisfaction over proper adjustments on WAR and DRK gameplay, basically a "too bad try next time" actitude? We will see.

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Originally Posted by shao32

I doubt any balance change will happen with tanks due how they are and that's probably they prefer gameplay dissatisfaction over proper adjustments on WAR and DRK gameplay, basically a "too bad try next time" actitude? We will see.

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Yeah... and it's a shame too, because I like the GCD combo system, it's just I wish there were more GCD combos for tanks... but DRK REALLY needs an overhaul for people who want to play tank but still feel like they are playing either a SAM, DRG, or MNK, and why now GNB is the only tank that still feels like a tank while also feeling like a DPS...

If this is where you going (if not, apologies)... Tank damage does, in general, feels low (3 of the 4 since if haven't completed leveling GNB). I saw a chart recently comparing previous expansions tank damage to this expansion and it showed that - made sense with what I felt playing tank jobs. Everyone wants to feel like they are contributing (damage being the major metric of that) and the low numbers, considering the effort, are, for some, enough to move to greener pastures. It's unfun for those that stay around.

GNB is my last tank to work on so I'll see if it gives enough of a dps feel as you mentioned.

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Originally Posted by Danelo

If this is where you going (if not, apologies)... Tank damage does, in general, feels low (3 of the 4 since if haven't completed leveling GNB). I saw a chart recently comparing previous expansions tank damage to this expansion and it showed that - made sense with what I felt playing tank jobs. Everyone wants to feel like they are contributing (damage being the major metric of that) and the low numbers, considering the effort, are, for some, enough to move to greener pastures. It's unfun for those that stay around.

GNB is my last tank to work on so I'll see if it gives enough of a dps feel as you mentioned.

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Yeah tank damage for DRK and WAR feel very low for how often you spam 1-2-3, PLD is only slightly better due to DoTs and how frequent their oGCDs are, GNB is kinda in the same boat but I do wish Gnashing Fang was at least 10 seconds more frequent...

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Originally Posted by Danelo

If this is where you going (if not, apologies)... Tank damage does, in general, feels low (3 of the 4 since if haven't completed leveling GNB). I saw a chart recently comparing previous expansions tank damage to this expansion and it showed that - made sense with what I felt playing tank jobs. Everyone wants to feel like they are contributing (damage being the major metric of that) and the low numbers, considering the effort, are, for some, enough to move to greener pastures. It's unfun for those that stay around.

GNB is my last tank to work on so I'll see if it gives enough of a dps feel as you mentioned.

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The issue isn't really the dps output(well it is for some obv, but it's not the main problem). They could buff overall tank dps to match the actual DPS jobs and it would still feel like shit to play a tank in comparison to actual DPS, because the role simply does not feel engaging to play anymore.

The gameplay for WAR/DRK has been significantly dumbed down and homogenized, PLD is more-or-less equal to SB version(they lost some but gained some) which isn't bad per se, but since it's always been the simplest tank it doesn't help much here and the shiny new GNB - announced as the "complex" tank supposedly - is really not that much different.

On the other hand, if you wanted to try to argue that it's fine for dps side of tanks to be easier, because they have other responsibilities to take care of - the core tank role gameplay has been simplified as well, even though it already wasn't all that complex in the past.

The aggro has been pretty much completely removed as a mechanic. Tank stances, while themselves were not super engaging, got replaced with free passive mitigation. This coupled with removal of ability to crit from bosses, made optimized cooldown usage way less impactfull. Mitigation cds were homogenized - there are still differences of general defensive strength between the tanks, but the need to change your approach to cd usage when you're switching jobs is mostly gone.
When it comes to encounter design, there's very little need to position bosses in the fights we've got. Making every single TB of the tier a double(seriously - every single TB in all savage fights), pretty much removed cd/swap planning which was prevalent in SB, outside of optimizing the invulns. Furthermore, the few somewhat interesting TBs we've got are timed in such a way that they can all be cheesed with said invulns. There weren't really any interesting tank-specific mechanics, like having to protect someone either.

There's hardly anything enjoyable left in the current tank jobs, both in terms of offense and defense, so might as well switch to DPS and at least enjoy more engaging damage rotations as well as far more job diversity.

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Originally Posted by Danelo

If this is where you going (if not, apologies)... Tank damage does, in general, feels low (3 of the 4 since if haven't completed leveling GNB). I saw a chart recently comparing previous expansions tank damage to this expansion and it showed that - made sense with what I felt playing tank jobs. Everyone wants to feel like they are contributing (damage being the major metric of that) and the low numbers, considering the effort, are, for some, enough to move to greener pastures. It's unfun for those that stay around.

GNB is my last tank to work on so I'll see if it gives enough of a dps feel as you mentioned.

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while tank damage and tank contribution feels pretty poor this expansion this request is more about DRK gameplay problems rether that overall performance, im not requesting a increase of DRK damage but more enganging gameplay that is not purely copy pasted from WAR and ebing something more than "but 0 damage with TBN and Frey"

but acording to your argument im actually playing as DPS when i have to do anything outside of raids due how lame is play a tank outside of savage and i agree the role need way more complexity since right now is a joke.

Hold up. I’m not making a counter argument to anything that has been said in the opening or after (for the most part). My comment was supplemental in nature & not meant to change the topic; I’m only saying the generally low tank damage makes it feel worse and compounds the issues DRK has with self-sustain, ld, BW needing to be used in the 2 ogcd slot/no haste, delIRium, 1-2-3, etc.

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Originally Posted by Danelo

Hold up. I’m not making a counter argument to anything that has been said in the opening or after (for the most part). My comment was supplemental in nature & not meant to change the topic; I’m only saying the generally low tank damage makes it feel worse and compounds the issues DRK has with self-sustain, ld, BW needing to be used in the 2 ogcd slot/no haste, delIRium, 1-2-3, etc.

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oh yeah i see, yeah you are right that the current tank situation combined with all the DRK desing problems it have complement themself.

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Originally Posted by Hierro

What's wrong with dark mind?

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Dark Mind is a narrow use-case cooldown that replaces what other tanks would get as a broad-base cooldown. It doesn't make 'DRK better against magic' because other tanks have answers to magic in the same slot; those same tanks have that same answer available for physical.

On top of that, every tank has a 1200 healing cooldown EXCEPT Drk, and every tank has a self-contained invuln except for 'just bene it away' DRK, which requires two cooldowns to do what other tanks do in one.

On the topic of Delirium, I admit that I got to thinking yesterday. Given that the skill does need a bit of a boost (but not excessively so), I thought to tweak it a little based on my experiences with it.

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First effect - lasts 6 seconds: Delirium
Records damage taken. Barrier damage and damage reduced by abilities is still recorded.

I wasn't sure what to do with this initially, given barriers exist. However, I settled on having it count towards the tally since it would be a massive blow to SCH and barrier-using AST if barrier damage was not recorded, which would make WHM be heavily sought after for DRK tanks and you know you'd get people telling the SCH/AST to not use their skills. So yeah, barrier damage counts. You might also ask "Why include damage reduced?" My answer - why penalize someone who pops a defencive cooldown? And yes, I know that people improperly using cooldowns should be sacked, but... you get the idea.

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After Delirium, second effect lasts 10 sec: Fervor of Pain
Reduces cooldown for Bloodspiller and Quietus by 0.5 seconds and removes their Blood Gauge cost.
Increases the damage dealt for the first Bloodspiller or Quietus used during this effect by 60% of the total amount of damage taken during Delirium, while additional uses of Bloodspiller and Quietus have their damage increased by 15% of the total amount taken during Delirium.
Bloodspiller and Quietus restore 600 MP per use during effect.

I really considered making the damage boost 100% and 33%, respectively. Then I realized you'd be getting ridiculous bonuses, so I bumped it down. I also considered taking Bloodspiller and Quietus off GCD for the duration, but I decided against it for the sake of balance and instead simply made it where their use reduces their cooldown (effectively, the global when they specifically are used).

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Originally Posted by TheHyperFusion

First effect - lasts 6 seconds: Delirium
Records damage taken. Barrier damage and damage reduced by abilities is still recorded.

After Delirium, second effect lasts 10 sec: Fervor of Pain
Reduces cooldown for Bloodspiller and Quietus by 0.5 seconds and removes their Blood Gauge cost.
Increases the damage dealt for the first Bloodspiller or Quietus used during this effect by 60% of the total amount of damage taken during Delirium, while additional uses of Bloodspiller and Quietus have their damage increased by 15% of the total amount taken during Delirium.
Bloodspiller and Quietus restore 600 MP per use during effect.

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- Tying a damage cooldown to damage taken is terrible, especially if it's going to scale. It requires you not only to take damage every time Delirium goes off cd in order to use this(have fun if boss is doing dps/healer targetted mechanics at the time, even if you're MTing, or oneshots or stuff that gives dmg downs), but also encourages eating any extra damage possible, like aoes and vuln stacks, in order to maximize the output of the buff.
- Reducing gcd by whole 0.5 second would drop it under 2 seconds like GS4 MNK and make double weaving terrible even with good ping, which completely screws up DRKs biggest burst window(whenever Delirium lines up with 60 seconds cds), which is chock-full of double weaves. I'm all for DRK getting even a full-uptime speed buff, but not this drastic.
- This would likely force DRKs to stack way more SkS than other tanks in order to fit sixth BS into the 10 second window, which is a massive pain in the ass if you wanna multi/omni-tank.
- Even at 60/15% you're still potentially adding a shitton of dps without taking anything away to keep the total in check(and taking away to balance would be impossible, with how this buff is dependent on encounter and rng).
- You still end up just spamming BS. Riveting.

Basically it's a lot of overly-complicated mechanics on the skill, which add nothing interesting gameplay-wise, break things and you still end up with an Inner Release clone.

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Originally Posted by Satarn

Snipped for sake of character limit.

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Sadly, without a full overhaul of the job by reworking each ability and adjusting the other tanks to make them unique as well, you cannot really pinpoint any specific ability of a single job within that role. My suggestion was based solely on my experience with DRK, the general feel of it throughout the Final Fantasy series (taking damage to deal damage), and the idea behind it in XIV (the whole "sacrifice, pain, etc" bit) - albeit also going off of just one ability and adjusting it, as this thread's OP is directed towards.
Like many in most of the job boards say (that I've read, at least), the issue is that some within a specific role (tank, healer, melee DPS, ranged phys DPS, magick DPS) feel far too similar to each other now with the ShB changes. On a personal view, I'd like to see more of a nod to prior incarnations within the series for each job. Sadly, I feel like they are attempting to make each job within a role more "in line" with each other - but they are going about it the wrong way, in my opinion as they aren't really working on every ability in a view of "What's the lore and intended feel of this job?".
You do have a point - the suggestion does indeed rely on taking damage and attempting to reduce GCD as much as possible, but it's a risk you take. Rely too much on taking damage in the timeframe, and you might tax your healers far too much. Yes, people will say "I need to be MT as DRK!" - but if you do tanking properly (switching OT/MT to keep Vuln stacks from getting too high, swapping when mitigation CDs are down, etc), it shouldn't be too much of an issue. Then again, based on the mindset of many MMORPG players, each and every individual seems to be of the thinking of "I must be best!" which is reinforced with some parses. I'd likely reconsider the suggestion, but I'd have to go through each tank job, as well as all of DRKs skill set, and completely redo it from there. At the immediate moment, that's something I don't want to do. xD
Speaking from a game designer view, I really do feel like the jobs need full reworks to make them unique... but I don't see that happening anytime soon.

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Originally Posted by TheHyperFusion

Sadly, without a full overhaul of the job by reworking each ability and adjusting the other tanks to make them unique as well, you cannot really pinpoint any specific ability of a single job within that role.

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Yeah, that's basically the problem at the moment.

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Originally Posted by TheHyperFusion

Like many in most of the job boards say (that I've read, at least), the issue is that some within a specific role (tank, healer, melee DPS, ranged phys DPS, magick DPS) feel far too similar to each other now with the ShB changes. On a personal view, I'd like to see more of a nod to prior incarnations within the series for each job. Sadly, I feel like they are attempting to make each job within a role more "in line" with each other - but they are going about it the wrong way, in my opinion as they aren't really working on every ability in a view of "What's the lore and intended feel of this job?".

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Melee DPS seem to be more fun and balanced with maybe NIN being the exception. Tanks however, GNB seems like it is only designed with level 60 onwards content in mind for tanks and PLD just keeps getting better, like DRG, with each expansion. Healers however, WHM is just THE go-to healer with SCH being a decent second, DNC is every speedrunners wet dream for lower level content but could use more GCDs that tie in with the flourishes to be played like the devs intended it to be played but Physical Ranged could use some more variety in playstyles. Caster Ranged DPS, RDM only good for prog and works well with anyone that doesn't have too many magic attacks(so no PLD or DRK), SMN is basically the better replacement for RDM if you really need raid DPS, and BLM if you just want healers to adjust...

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Originally Posted by TheHyperFusion

Speaking from a game designer view, I really do feel like the jobs need full reworks to make them unique... but I don't see that happening anytime soon.

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Yeah that's kind of how this expansion is right now... I would have been perfectly fine with Shadowbringers and even the next expansion to be delayed if it mean battle balance gets more love and attention...

Tbh, I like how most of the other roles feel atm. It's just tanks that are outright redundant in what they do these days. I still stand by my comment, DRK needs an overhaul to be an MP zerker.