Bard's Thematic Future

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Their precedents are generally equivalent to rule when it comes to FFXIV in my opinion, especially when there has been no deviation from any of the formulae the developers use for content in 6 years. A Ranger job will be level 70 if added in 6.0, level 80 if added in 7.0, Level 90 if added in 8.0, etc.. As for New Game+, I haven’t heard anything about it offering experience. The Shadowbringers product page lists New Game+ as a feature that “will allow for replay of previously completed quests while retaining one’s current progression and job level”—the “retaining one’s current progression and job level” doesn’t really imply that players can earn experience from utilizing the feature.

As for the old cross-class system, I don’t really consider it “dumbing down” or “catering to the lowest denominator” to remove the requirement to level a separate class to level 15 just to progress further with one’s chosen class/job. And I did that for ALL the jobs that required it. It was just removing a clunky feature. Same with the cross-class > role skill system. It wasn’t exactly riveting or even challenging to level THM to 26 just so my WHM could have Swiftcast.

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It is entirely possible that newgame+ behaves like that. I just assumed it would reset the quest tracker allowing all of them, side quests included, to be redone; rewards and EXP intact. I was thinking "retaining ones progress and level" simply meant they wern't going to delevel you or prevent you from doing current content that is often gated behind story quest completion. Even so, I doubt this will bar EXP gain, and there is a heafty amount of story dungeons to drag a lower class through even if one would need to grind out a few extra inbetween story quests.

You are fair to say the cross abilities were "clunky" but that is not the same as requiring a tank to have a basic understanding of the first 15 levels of a healer, it was a different system afterall. While i also didn't mind getting BLM leveled to get swiftcast, i do admit that was a rather underperforming aspect of that particular system, but one I was completely onboard with given my love for the Tactics series and XI. I just wish they would of improved it instead of scrapping it. I fondly remember playing lv50 archer even after the bard job was added and having Fire1 cross classed. It came in rather handy on fire weak enemies, and internally I just viewed it as a fire enchanted arrow.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Keeping this weird Hybrid that can't really commit to either has caused a lot of grief for players who want both these styles, and has been since 1.2. If some people have come to accept it as a job then I can understand that, but the frustration will still be there because Bard's existence essentially destroys any hope of both camps being completely satisfied.

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Don't put words in our mouth. We don't just 'accept' the job. We LOVE the job. We love the 'unholy amalgamation' as you keep putting to it (which is a great way to try and prove your point, keep calling it that). And we are not some small camp. Bard has been consistently one of the most popular jobs in the game based on pure clear rates of even casual fights since 2.0's inception, nothing about the job NEEDS changing thematically, it will remain a popular job based on it's aesthetic alone and walking the line between the two themes of the class from now till the end of the game isn't going to lose SE some massive amount of players. Bard in it's current state is only a problem for those few who literally CANT accept the idea that a Bard can also be an Archer at the same time.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I want both camps to have the job they dream of: A lethal archer able to plant an arrow between the eyes of a fiend halfway across the room AND a prodigious musician using the power of their voice and their instrument alone to tear their enemies apart while occasionally supplying their allies with melodic power.

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Yeah, we've heard you multiple times, and as people have told you multiple times, there's a third camp: the people that like the hybrid, that started playing the Job because it's a hybrid, that don't want the parts to be separated. Amazingly enough we're nine pages deep and you still haven't grasped that concept and I sure as hell don't believe you when you say you understand that people accept the Job because you're still suggesting that SE rob those players of what they already have. The hybrid of Archer and Bard works fine as a concept and the Job quests - which I'm assuming you still haven't bothered reading yet despite me quoting them not once but twice - support that. SE needs to return some of that bardic flair that was lost between SB and ShB to better balance the Archer and the Bard aspects, but splitting it into Ranger and Bard would go against the vision they've clearly had for 6+ years and be a disservice to the fans that have mained the Job and enjoy it for what it actually is. If you can't accept SEs vision on what a Bard is in FFXIV then maybe you should find a different MMO that will satisfy your needs.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

This is what I was going for, yes.

It's hard to take this community seriously when so many people on this side of the ocean advocate for drastic measures to happen, without any consideration for the logistics that goes into designing such things. Again, if this were as trivial as people think it'd be, Summoner and Scholar would have been fully split by now. And yet... They still aren't, despite that they already existed as separate jobs from the beginning, and the developers OPENLY admitting that this was a mistake for years.

(Also, some posters in this thread would really hate DnD, which is what Ultima was inspired by, which is what ultimately inspired FF as a franchise, if not all of modern RPGs as a whole. In DnD, Bards can wield any weapon, shared un-Bard like utility magic with the pure spellcasting classes, had exclusive crowd control magic with the most famous being literally insulting someone in the wittiest way you could come up with, and instruments are treated as side equipment for flavor/skill check purposes. If anything, the concept of Bards who can't wield traditional weapons and stick purely to instruments is the highly unnatural concept that deviates from what Bards originally were in the old days.)



Alright, sure. I'll even be a little lenient and give you three days to work on this. I won't accept glamour-based measures as an answer, since the original topic was about splitting Bard into two fully fledged classes.

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So I did a little reading on how music is written because I’m not an actual musician in the real world and know basically nothing about how to read sheet music. Because of this, I don’t necessarily want to go through and specifically name a lot of actions not really knowing all the terminology. If I were being paid to design this job over a span of time, I would really dig into learning about sheet music and try to talk to musicians to get more insight on how to properly name these abilities, but I can talk about the flow of the Musician job concept regardless…

Let’s start with your basic combos and the music gauge that would be associated with this job concept.

Your have 4 basic combo actions that, for simplicity’s sake, we’ll call: Start, A Chord, B Chord, and C Chord. These names would change. Obviously, every combo will begin with Start which deals flat damage.

Let’s say Start is 200 Potency and A Chord, B Chord, and C Chord all do 100 Potency before combo.

From Start, one of the other 3 Chords will randomly be targeted for combo damage. In all cases, the damage would be the same, say 250 potency. Then, one of the other 2 Chords that you haven’t used will be targeted for the final hit in the combo, say 300 potency, before you start again.

Every time you complete a combo, you’ll be awarded a Note resource on your music gauge to a maximum of 6. These Notes will be an important resource for using a variety of very powerful tools, but before we talk about spending the Notes, you don’t always have to play Simon Says.

You’ll have oGCD actions that will enhance your combos in different ways. One example could be something like the ability Reprise which will have you repeat the last combo you performed with each hit doubling in damage (400 > 500 > 600 Potency combo) and earning you 2 Notes instead of 1.

Overture could be an action you use outside of combat to grant you a full set of 6 Notes for your opener.

Freestyle can be a channeled attack like Machinist’s Flamethrower which pulsates damage and gradually nets you Notes as each second passes with you doing damage.

Chorus is a stance you can turn on and off which halves the damage of your Start, A Cord, B Chord, and C Chord actions, but extending them to additional targets as your form of AoE damage.

Other actions can be used as a substitute for your final combo action. Instead of using your 300 potency combo finisher and gaining a Note, you can use these extra actions.

Dark Elegy is a 30 second DoT you can use to substitute your finisher, with a potency of 60.

Dissonant Sonata is is a 100 potency AoE finisher substitute that stuns all enemies for 4 seconds, useful for helping out your Tank pull big trash mobs.

Angelsong is an oGCD that deals the 300 potency damage without granting a Note, but applies a HoT on all allies around you.

Crescendo is an oGCD 800 potency finisher substitute you want to use as it comes off cool down.

Then comes the abilities you’ll spend your notes on. The most prominent one is Concerto, which applies a raid wide 5% damage buff that doesn’t stack with Technical Step. This one costs all 6 notes and is usable once every 2 minutes, mirroring Technical Step.

All other Note-Consuming oGCD actions will consume 2 Notes and you’ll want to find times to use them so you’re not sitting on a full set of Notes while remembering to prepare for from Concerto comes off cool down.

Black Requiem is a high 600 potency AoE attack.

Soul Etude is an AoE heal that also buffs the critical hit of all nearby allies by 5%.

Vespersong applies an MP refresh on an ally Healer.

You’ll also have something like Fortissimo which acts like Technician/Troubadour/Shield Samba and doesn’t require any special resources.

There, it’s a rough concept made in literally a handful of hours, but it’s a starting point for what I think would be a pretty cool concept.

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Originally Posted by Beddict

Yeah, we've heard you multiple times, and as people have told you multiple times, there's a third camp: the people that like the hybrid, that started playing the Job because it's a hybrid, that don't want the parts to be separated. Amazingly enough we're nine pages deep and you still haven't grasped that concept and I sure as hell don't believe you when you say you understand that people accept the Job because you're still suggesting that SE rob those players of what they already have. The hybrid of Archer and Bard works fine as a concept and the Job quests - which I'm assuming you still haven't bothered reading yet despite me quoting them not once but twice - support that. SE needs to return some of that bardic flair that was lost between SB and ShB to better balance the Archer and the Bard aspects, but splitting it into Ranger and Bard would go against the vision they've clearly had for 6+ years and be a disservice to the fans that have mained the Job and enjoy it for what it actually is. If you can't accept SEs vision on what a Bard is in FFXIV then maybe you should find a different MMO that will satisfy your needs.

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Earlier I also said then fine, have all 3. Have a Dedicated Archer, a Dedicated Musician, and a job that mixes the two. Everyone can be happy.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Earlier I also said then fine, have all 3. Have a Dedicated Archer, a Dedicated Musician, and a job that mixes the two. Everyone can be happy.

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It's plain to see you're not enamored with Bard. I've been playing archer archetypes in MMOs for 10+ years, and I'm just not seeing your point, especially since you self-identify as Dancer.

My suggestion is to go find another MMO that meets your need for a musician class. Lord of the Rings Online has a Minstrel class [not called Bard, Bards are NPCs] that appears to meets your current requirements. I disliked it, as the performances were, basically, a strum of a harp followed by weird shouts.

You've voiced your opinion, but haven't been persuasive for a number of us who still self-identify as Bard. [Yeah, yeah, I haven't changed from Archer in almost 5 years in the profile. Just changed that.]

I will keep saying it, over and over again if I must.
But leave the bard job alone.
Just because you don't have YOUR ranger class doesn't mean that you get to hijack bard to get what you want.

You can advocate for a new range class, you can come up with the skills and such that you would like to see; but those of you advocating that BARD has to be the one to get stripped and remade (even though in SE's own lore it refers to bards as bowman of eld) while your ranger gets to keep everything that bard is now are being selfish and ignoring a large portion of those of us that have mained the job for years.

I'll admit I'm a super casual player, I don't have ultimate clears, and have only started attempting savage this tier, in all my years playing. I'm am simply very passionate about my class and really don't understand with all the jobs available in the game for a person to pick why some players feel adamant about arguing for the gutting of ONE particular class simply so they can enjoy the bow and arrow aesthetic in the game. Like it really astounds me that the underlying premise behind the majority of the arguments being made to gut bard is simply because those people want the bow and arrow type class to play like other bow and arrow type classes in other games. (Not to be THAT person, but FFXIV is FFXIV and other games are different games. Each game has their own unique classes with their own unique abilities. SE decided to go the route of bard in their vision in this game, if you can't respect that, then there are other games available for you to choose from.)

Now again, not to be that person, but the option available to those who simply want to keep the bow and arrow aesthetic that also offers the least amount of resistance AND that would be most feasible would be to advocate for a new job, as it will more than likely follow the current trend that it will be placed in game 20 levels below the current expansions level and you can just pick up and play. Just because YOU (general) don't like something doesn't mean that they people who DO like what has been in place for years should have to sacrifice in order to cater to YOUR wants.

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Originally Posted by Suniva

I will keep saying it, over and over again if I must.
But leave the bard job alone.
Just because you don't have YOUR ranger class doesn't mean that you get to hijack bard to get what you want.

You can advocate for a new range class, you can come up with the skills and such that you would like to see; but those of you advocating that BARD has to be the one to get stripped and remade (even though in SE's own lore it refers to bards as bowman of eld) while your ranger gets to keep everything that bard is now are being selfish and ignoring a large portion of those of us that have mained the job for years.

I'll admit I'm a super casual player, I don't have ultimate clears, and have only started attempting savage this tier, in all my years playing. I'm am simply very passionate about my class and really don't understand with all the jobs available in the game for a person to pick why some players feel adamant about arguing for the gutting of ONE particular class simply so they can enjoy the bow and arrow aesthetic in the game. Like it really astounds me that the majority of the arguments being made to gut bard is simply because people want the bow and arrow type class to play like other bow and arrow type classes in other games. (Not to be THAT person, but FFXIV is FFXIV and other games are different games. Each game has their own unique classes with their own unique abilities. SE decided to go the route of bard in their vision in this game, if you can't respect that, then there are other games available for you to choose from.)

Now again, not to be that person, but the option available to those who simply want to keep the bow and arrow aesthetic that also offers the least amount of resistance AND that would be most feasible would be to advocate for a new job, as it will more than likely follow the current trend that it will be placed in game 20 levels below the current expansions level and you can just pick up and play. Just because YOU (general) don't like something doesn't mean that they people who DO like what has been in place for years should have to sacrifice in order to cater to YOUR wants.

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The build was for a new job fyi... not Bard

I'm beginning to think that examples like ARC/BRD is one of the main reasons they have held off on removing classes altogether. We know it's something they are/have been seriously considering (unless I missed it being updated to never happening) and the previous track was for 6.0, I believe - or perhaps it was just "sometime after 5.0" or something. So, assuming they do go through with this, if BRD were to be just BRD without ARC even existing, where do you all think that would put us? They would be a BRD from level 1 but would need more bardness before 30 if that were case. And how would the lore be affected, I wonder. Would the ARC quests be removed entirely and the BRD quests be lowered in level?

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

The build was for a new job fyi... not Bard

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I have never said I was against anyone advocating for a new job, so long as you leave bard alone as it is. It needs some tlc, sure, but that's all. It was a general statement that was made because I keep seeing the same underlying issue presented in arguments, that issue being SE's FFXIV vision of a bow and arrow wielder doesn't satisfy some. So rather than those players moving on to different jobs available in game that they can enjoy, they push for their own wants, choosing to remain blind that there is an existing player base that has no problem with SE's vision of the class and enjoy it for what it is.

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Originally Posted by Suniva

I have never said I was against anyone advocating for a new job, so long as you leave bard alone as it is. It needs some tlc, sure, but that's all.



I'm also eagerly awaiting your ideas to see what you can come up, since very few have been willingly to accept the challenge and I have seen very little offered in terms of this route.

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That idea was what I came up with. Basically you have a musician of some type, probably with a Flute since Harp is taken, and your kit revolves around your basic combo options and accumulating Notes you can spend on oGCDs like Concerto which rivals Technical Step, i.e. making this job the counterpart to Dancer, and others like Soul Etude and Black Requiem. You can also forgo Note generation on a combo-to-combo basis by replacing your finisher with other special actions that do other things like apply a DoT you manage, generate a HoT to help healers when they're struggling, or do high single target damage when the action is off cool down. Much like a song, you're playing a set of basic notes, but as a master musician, you improvise with tunes that best fit the situation.

Ahh I see. You want a musician type class. So then what would become of bard? Or are you still trying to say the musician type class gets introduced to appease those who want a music orientated class and those that want ranger get to keep what exists currently from bard? Because I play bard for it being the way it is. I can play music in cities, sure. But the premise behind the bard was to be a hybrid of sorts and I've never had a problem with that. I think a majority of players that enjoy bard for what it is are comfortable enough that there isn't really a need for a type of musician class that you highlighted. I could be wrong though because yours is honestly the first post I've seen on the topic of bard that goes into details about a musician type job.

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Originally Posted by Suniva

Ahh I see. You want a musician type class. So then what would become of bard? Or are you still trying to say the musician type class gets introduced to appease those who want a music orientated class and those that want ranger get to keep what exists currently from bard?

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Bard would stay the same

Then I don't understand why you felt the need to quote me on a particular post that was made as a general statement.

Okay I will admit (and not quote since mobile site sucks), that initial concept is good.

Although fleshing it out is the hard part. How does your class respond to downtime, for one? Also, I don’t agree with that one ability not stacking with Technical Step, because that automatically means you don’t want a specific party composition. There isn’t a single class in the game that has buffs that don’t interact with those of another.

Regardless, I think I can exit the thread otherwise, now that we’ve firmly established that the Bard class should remain untouched - as that's really all our particular side asked for.

I never understood why brd has moves like venom shot. Wouldn't that just be better as a dot caused by a song? It could do the same thing, on the same gcd, etc but instead of an arrow we pull out the harp.

Not everything having to do with bard has to be buffs and boons. There is no reason bard songs couldn't be weapons in and of themselves and a simple 1-2-3 bow rotation with maybe a big 4 and 5. You could literally make bard a full dps with no support if you get creative and think outside of the box. It could also be made to function similar to dnc where you have to hit notes instead of steps for X Y or Z buff with the climax of the song causing dmg.

There is so much we can do with these jobs, but so many just look at this tiny range because bard HAS to be this. No it doesn't...it really doesn't

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Originally Posted by AnimaAnimus

There is so much we can do with these jobs, but so many just look at this tiny range because bard HAS to be this. No it doesn't...it really doesn't

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reGuIc3i2IE

< tongue firmly in cheek >

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reGuIc3i2IE

< tongue firmly in cheek >

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LOL! I'd have to mute my game. Everytime he uses a skill, I die laughing.

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Originally Posted by AnimaAnimus

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You're right. Bard doesn't have to be the support/dps hybrid that players want. It can be whatever the hell the devs come up with. And we as the players will have to put up with it or leave over it.

Issue is, that's not what Bard in XIV has been about. In XIV, in both it's own history, and it's lore, it is a job that has always walked the line between damage dealer and party supporter. And for those of us who have loved the job for that over the past 6 years, we want to see it remain that way. I don't want a Bard who is as you said: "Full DPS with no support", with "a simple 1, 2, 3 bow rotation." I don't want Bard to get a Machinist make over and just make it the same way they made machinist now. That's not what I have grown to love over the course of this game and why I spent time learning the job.

I really honestly can't understand all these mains of other jobs coming and telling us Bard mains who have loved and gained this job for 6 years now that "So what the job has always been like that, your opinion doesn't matter anymore, stop trying to get back what you like. Other people want this and you need to give up on what you want." No, we are quite happy with what Bard has always been, and just want it to go back to that.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reGuIc3i2IE

< tongue firmly in cheek >

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Ah, yes. The infamous shout mage.

...I kinda want to design a boss that basically just shouts at you, and dodging mechanics just consists of trying to find something to plug up your ears.

Except it comes with the bonus of turning off the game’s sounds. The music, the UI, everything. Have fun!

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Originally Posted by Rika007

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Sorry, I am not saying brd should go all out dps. I was just trying to make an example of how it potentially could due to lack of any real limitations outside those we place on ourselves.

I think brd should have some support elements, but I would also like to see some of its standard bow moves, like venom shot, turned into songs and the bow could just have a standard rotation. It would make bard feel more thematically like a bard and there is no real reason a bard couldn't use a tune to do the same things as venom shot or bloodletter, even moves like raging strikes and head graze.

They default to making things bow related when they should default to making them song related is what I was trying to get at.

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Originally Posted by AnimaAnimus

Sorry, I am not saying brd should go all out dps. I was just trying to make an example of how it potentially could due to lack of any real limitations outside those we place on ourselves.

I think brd should have some support elements, but I would also like to see some of its standard bow moves, like venom shot, turned into songs and the bow could just have a standard rotation. It would make bard feel more thematically like a bard and there is no real reason a bard couldn't use a tune to do the same things as venom shot or bloodletter, even moves like raging strikes and head graze.

They default to making things bow related when they should default to making them song related is what I was trying to get at.

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I’ve been (trying) to say this for a while now too. Bard songs don’t necessarily need to be full-on support to feel ‘Bard-like’.

I like the idea of Venomous Bite and Stormbite being songs since it splits Bard GCDs into 2 songs 2 weaponskills, plus all of the oGCD stuff like Empyreal Arrow and Sidewinder so the ‘archer’ Style is still represented. Warden’s Paean already has an animation that would work pretty well for a ‘song weaponskill’

Like, how cool would if have been if Apex Arrow was like, Song of Line of Paintm. Or Shadowbite could’ve been like Ballad of Oblivion or something.
I’ve always wondered why Iron Jaws wasn’t a song of some kind. I mean, how exactly does waving your finger cause poison from an arrow to somehow perpetuate itself? A magic song of poison would at least make a little bit of sense lol

More support songs would be amazing but if they don’t want us to have any they could at least give us ‘offensive/dps’ songs to keep the job falling too much into the ‘Ranger’ category.

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Originally Posted by Connor

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We have rivers of blood or mages ballad that does not restore MP but collects energy for spams RoD, pitch perfect which uses aether collected from the life taken from dots and gathered by singing Wanderer's, and army's which makes us go fast. A Bard's singing basically collects aether through sound and is then shaped through the heart. With that as the basis for how it functions: a Bard's songs can shape the aether into form or function from thing like swords and arrows to storms, enchantments, and regenerative spells depending on the amount of aether collected, the strength and type of feelings, et cetera. And, for apex: it's just releasing their stored energy by enhancing an arrow

Given that the "spilling of blood" is the "spilling of ones life", "life force", and since ones "life force" is aether: it just becomes another arrow for the Bard's quiver. And, if the poison's used require aether or can be altered by aether like a curse it could just be like a useful skill or like a cursed song or chant. But, it's still just totally convenient to have which is passable

And, our support songs that do support are really inconvenient and share a similar problem on controller set-ups as AST's current card system because of being single target spells. Also, Warden's has a ridiculous recast timer, and the whole situation with Battle voice being the only time that the cyclical songs actually support the party beyond suppressive fire...

Warden's Paean is so useless that I don't even remember where it is on my hotbar so that when I do hit one of the very few occassions that I can use it I tend to not be able to find it in time to help someone. That's how little I use it. It's also really hard (at least for me, maybe I'm doing it wrong) to see when someone has a debuff on them in the middle of the raid. I used to always watch the health bars of my group so that way I could use my buffs to help give mages back more mana or throw Palisade and my healing buff on a mage or tank as needed if they were in trouble but now I NEVER look at the group window anymore. Why should I? I'm getting out of practice because I no longer have any support abilities so I don't bother. Maybe it's my lack of practice but I find it hard when everyone has a gazillion buffs on them and my little window is maxxed out so I can't even see if they have a debuff on them. So by the time I realize they're in trouble it's too late anyway even if I could find my useless ability in it's lonely corner on my hotbar. I think I used it one whole time this week in Rabanastre (did I spell that right) and only because I saw a red ring around someone really close to me. I was able to save them but normally I just don't even bother.

I really miss my support buttons. There's so many instances where a good Palisade and (gah, what was that one that gave healers like 10 or 20% healing magic buff? I can't remember it's name) could literally be a life saver. One healer is down and the other one is low and I used to use that all the time to keep our remaining healer alive. Mix in a Refresh and it would literally save the group at times by keeping our healer alive long enough to heal up and rezz people. I used to feel so good knowing I had two abilities that could and did make a difference. Now I just pew pew pew and hit my songs and NEVER EVER look at other people's health/mana bars anymore. The sad thing is that I was finally starting to get really good at it. Knowing exactly when to use my Refresh according to which dungeon/raid I was in. Hitting my Palisade at just the right time. Using Foe Requiem before major fights and sometimes in the middle of them if the fight went on long enough. I really miss having more to do. I don't like playing a Dancer so I'm hoping they'll give a bit more of our utility back at some point.

I also hope they give healers more than just one whole damage ability because that crap is boring to solo with. You could play a healer on an Atari Joystick.

Thanks to the feedback in this topic, I've generated a poll on Reddit (now that we can do that on the FFXIV subreddit) to try and get a decent (and fairly accurate as Reddit tracks votes by IP address to prevent vote abuse) sample size on how people feel about this.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...happen_to_brd/

Please take a moment to cast your vote if you could!

As it currently stands it is almost an even split between those wanting to keep BRD as it is without any changes, those wanting to split BRD into BRD & RNG, and to those wanting to keep BRD as it is but with adding more songs/music to it. Nearly 68% of those polled so far wish for BRD to have a more musical theme (either as it currently is or via a split) and 12% would at least like a separate Idol/Songstress type of job to make up the difference (essentially 80% of voters want more musical representation in the game in some form).

I'll be posting results here in 7 days when the polling ends to give SE an idea of what we would like see happen!

I honestly enjoy what they did to Bard just a fewe more songs and a dps increase and it would be golden IMO. I mained Bard back in ARR and HW and picked it back up for ShB I love the changes just wish the support abilities all had more use....looking at you Wardens Paean.

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Originally Posted by MartaDemireux

Thanks to the feedback in this topic, I've generated a poll on Reddit (now that we can do that on the FFXIV subreddit) to try and get a decent (and fairly accurate as Reddit tracks votes by IP address to prevent vote abuse) sample size on how people feel about this.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...happen_to_brd/

Please take a moment to cast your vote if you could!

As it currently stands it is almost an even split between those wanting to keep BRD as it is without any changes, those wanting to split BRD into BRD & RNG, and to those wanting to keep BRD as it is but with adding more songs/music to it. Nearly 68% of those polled so far wish for BRD to have a more musical theme (either as it currently is or via a split) and 12% would at least like a separate Idol/Songstress type of job to make up the difference (essentially 80% of voters want more musical representation in the game in some form).

I'll be posting results here in 7 days when the polling ends to give SE an idea of what we would like see happen!

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What I hate about Reddit is that innocent posts like yourse get downvoted for no reason at all. That's not how downvote button is supposed to work.

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Originally Posted by SamRF

What I hate about Reddit is that innocent posts like yourse get downvoted for no reason at all. That's not how downvote button is supposed to work.

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Sadly, anything that's not a meme or doesn't have consensus with the hive mind gets downvoted on reddit.

Going along with the topic, I have a couple of suggestions for BRD.

- Party cooldowns as songs: This would require changing the names of certain songs that are used in BRD's rotation, but the goal would be to implement Army's Paean and Mage Ballad as group DPS cooldowns. Mechanically, both songs would share the same cooldown, with Paean increasing physical damage dealt by party members, and Ballad increasing magical damage dealt. To balance things out, I would also want to throw in something to discourage groups stacking BRDs (I'm a fan of the Forbearance and Exhaustion debuffs, so I'd lean in that direction). The goal here is to establish a distinction between BRD and DNC, DNC being a job that buffs party members over the course of battle, while BRD has "big" cooldowns.

- Changing abilities to songs: Echoing suggestions already seen in this thread, Wind/Stormbite would be changed to a song that deals damage.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

The goal here is to establish a distinction between BRD and DNC, DNC being a job that buffs party members over the course of battle, while BRD has "big" cooldowns.

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I was kind of thinking along this train of thought today, too! But my thought was kind of the opposite where BRD buffs the whole party continuously throughout the course of battle with two big buffs/debuffs in a 120s window, while DNC remains the one to continuously buff only one party member throughout the course of a battle with their big party buff being used half as often (as it currently is, once every 120s).

• Minuet could give a large DPS boost to the party while draining MP (while retaining its current proc mechanic).

  This echoes other FFs where Minuet is an attack boost.

• Requiem could be brought back to be a fourth song to rotate and be a potent PBAoE DoT for 30s instead of a debuff that also allows procing of Rain of Deaeth/Bloodletter.

  This echoes other FFs where Requiem is a direct damage song or DoT. It also allows for a similar experience to the common request of "Bane for BRD DoTs" going around without stepping on SMN's toes.

• Ballad/Paeon buffs could be very small and restore the BRD's MP over their duration (while keeping their current proc mechanics).

  This echoes other FFs where Ballad and Paeon are recovery over time songs and encourages the use of Paeon for its full duration.

This would give a rotation of songs where each song is kept for its full duration:

Minuet > Ballad > Requiem > Paeon.

For AoE it would be:

Requiem > Ballad > Minuet > Paeon.

One song to drain MP followed by one song to restore MP. You'd get a potent 30s party buff every 90s, a potent debuff every 90s, and weaker party buffs in between them.

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Originally Posted by SamRF

What I hate about Reddit is that innocent posts like yourse get downvoted for no reason at all. That's not how downvote button is supposed to work.

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Agreed, but at least it got 389 votes on day 1 before it goes into the void (more BRD-specific opinions than the class satisfaction survey acquired), and anyone coming across this thread or searching for Bard related posts in the next 6 days will still be able to weigh in.

The least they could do imo is change some dps abilities into something Bard themed. Particularly the DoTs imo, they should be something Bard themed, have said this before but they could be turnt into "demoralize" or "stress" or simply a melody name as long as you wouldn't be shooting an arrow to apply the DoT.

It would also make more sense for those to be Bard themed with how the Repertoire procs during songs are earnt trough the DoTs AND how you refresh those abilities with Iron Jaws. If the DoTs were bard themed, Repertoire procs would fit much better flavor wise, with how your melody or manipulative Bard effect on the enemy at some moments made for you to gain power or opportunity to strike when you are playing a song --> proc, while there's imo no flavor in having poison or wind damage give you random Repertoire stacks (look up Repertoire definition). As for Iron Jaws, Swinging your arm melodically doesn't really correlate with increasing the duration of poison and wind damage, if they were Bard themed DoTs on the other hand, it would make more sense.

The Poll Results are in!

https://i.imgur.com/X74UgDP.png

Of the 541 people polled, you can see here that the majority want a BRD that is more musically themed - no matter how it comes about. We can surmise 80.5% want a job that has a major focus on music, whether or not it be BRD.

https://i.imgur.com/ui7is3g.png

This chart breaks it down to be a bit more in-depth and shows (like the responses in this very thread also show) a very divisive community desire on exactly how or if more music is added. It's almost an equal camp between those that want more music added to our existing BRD and those who want for there to be a split. Collectively, though, the majority wish for more music.

https://i.imgur.com/NW2Ezr3.png

This final graph breaks the previous chart down so that you can see exactly how the answers were spread out. Surprisingly, of those that want there to be a split, many want BRD to forgo the DPS role and become a healer, with some comments calling for FFIV's Rosa to be its inspiration for a bow-using bard healer. I personally expected more votes for caster than healer.

I hope this helps to shed more light on the issue with Bard's thematic future. How do you all relate to these results?

Thanks for the polling and sharing results! Very interesting to see.

It was really difficult for me to decide between healer, caster and ranged. I voted for healer but honestly I'd likely change my vote I think considering how healers are designed in this game (right now). Either way, I'd be happy no matter what if we'd get a pure Bard that is a BRD first and foremost.

I understand however that it's pretty unrealistic to expect an actual job split and also understand why people who may have taken a liking with current BRD don't want such drastic thematic change. Considering this and looking at the poll results, the most logical way forward for SE seems to be to simply add more musical and BRD like abilities to the job we currently have. By a lot, I'd say, since many still seem in favor of completely splitting and it won't be easy to satisfy those. They don't necessarily need a ton of extra utility (more than DNC for example) imo but simply more BRD themed animations for DPS abilities as well.

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Originally Posted by SamRF

I understand however that it's pretty unrealistic to expect an actual job split and also understand why people who may have taken a liking with current BRD don't want such drastic thematic change. Considering this and looking at the poll results, the most logical way forward for SE seems to be to simply add more musical and BRD like abilities to the job we currently have. By a lot, I'd say, since many still seem in favor of completely splitting and it won't be easy to satisfy those. They don't necessarily need a ton of extra utility (more than DNC for example) imo but simply more BRD themed animations for DPS abilities as well.

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Agreed. And if SE takes this poll into consideration for 6.0, I do believe that we will see more music added to the existing BRD before any of the other options. It's the least difficult and divisive way to please the majority. Adding glamours to ARC abilities with the BRD stone on alone would go a long way toward their thematic identity even if they couldn't figure out a way to add more supportive features to it while differentiating it from DNC.

Personally, I heavily favor the hybrid buff/bow thematic. A Bard (in name) is not a Arcane DPS Archer, or Burst cannon as it was in Aion. I've always seen this as implied by the naming convention, as per other jobs.

On a practical level, the 'less' opinionated element to me is that of 'more homogenization'. How lazy, to have a ranged DPS section where the potential to have no real difference sans aesthetics, rears its ugly head again. The idea that Bard/Machinist and Dancer should offer a different approach to the same concept, is a simple case of play diversity and somewhat obvious I feel. Some may not like the vision for their particular class but thats always going to be the case. Most agree, that you will never please everyone. So surely better, to offer a distinctly different type of Rdps across the spectrum. If Dancer supports, Machinist says kapow and Bards walk the line; thats something for the pures and the hybrid fans, all.

For me thats a better balance of diversity and interesting play variance, than having it rendered like the Tanks. Which on current paths, will see everyone with the same 4 buttons reskined to different colours.

I'd rather see them just make a new job and refocus Bard into a pure Ranger. I'm not a big fan of the hybrid style they did with Summoner or Bard as is, and it just seems to kind of create a weird space while eating up potential jobs instead.

Granted of course there is the fact that they can only include so many jobs, but in a perfect world I'd rather see a full on Bard/Songstress/whatever job instead.

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Originally Posted by MirronTulaxia

I'd rather see them just make a new job and refocus Bard into a pure Ranger. I'm not a big fan of the hybrid style they did with Summoner or Bard as is, and it just seems to kind of create a weird space while eating up potential jobs instead.

Granted of course there is the fact that they can only include so many jobs, but in a perfect world I'd rather see a full on Bard/Songstress/whatever job instead.

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Or....
Ranger
Weapon: magitec Aether-string bow that can seperate into an aether-edge ax and short sword
Abilities: Rune-magic based nature and animal semblances (Hunger of wolf, bear stance, anchor of the great tree, wings of the old one, stealth)

Seriously, FF has mixed jobs and abilities since like FFIII, so why wouldn't it be normal for combat professions to like have diverse skillsets like the priest/champion paladin?

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Originally Posted by MPNZ

Or....
Ranger
Weapon: magitec Aether-string bow that can seperate into an aether-edge ax and short sword
Abilities: Rune-magic based nature and animal semblances (Hunger of wolf, bear stance, anchor of the great tree, wings of the old one, stealth)

Seriously, FF has mixed jobs and abilities since like FFIII, so why wouldn't it be normal for combat professions to like have diverse skillsets like the priest/champion paladin?

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FFIII doesn't let you mix jobs. FFV is the first game of the series that lets you mix jobs.

And I'm not really sure I understand how what you proposed is a rebuttal to what I said. I guess the idea being that you want an entirely new Ranger job? For me at least I would rather see Bard get a proper focus than Ranger, I don't really have any interest in it. It's certainly possible they could add Ranger as a Ranged DPS to finish things off, the options for specifically Ranged DPS are somewhat limited, though I could see Gambler I suppose.

Edit: Actually, to expand, there isn't anything wrong with expanding jobs in general. But ultimately this is still a role based game. Whatever job gets added needs to fit those roles. It's much like in FFT Summoners don't regularly hit every character on the field, even though in traditional RPGs that's what they do (Illusionists are basically Summoners and do manage to do that, but your mileage may vary on how much you consider them Summoners as they don't actually summon anything). In this game there are five roles. Jobs need to fit them or be Limited and not worry.

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Originally Posted by MirronTulaxia

FFIII doesn't let you mix jobs. FFV is the first game of the series that lets you mix jobs.

And I'm not really sure I understand how what you proposed is a rebuttal to what I said. I guess the idea being that you want an entirely new Ranger job? For me at least I would rather see Bard get a proper focus than Ranger, I don't really have any interest in it. It's certainly possible they could add Ranger as a Ranged DPS to finish things off, the options for specifically Ranged DPS are somewhat limited, though I could see Gambler I suppose.

Edit: Actually, to expand, there isn't anything wrong with expanding jobs in general. But ultimately this is still a role based game. Whatever job gets added needs to fit those roles. It's much like in FFT Summoners don't regularly hit every character on the field, even though in traditional RPGs that's what they do (Illusionists are basically Summoners and do manage to do that, but your mileage may vary on how much you consider them Summoners as they don't actually summon anything). In this game there are five roles. Jobs need to fit them or be Limited and not worry.

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Yeah, I'm probably thinking of the onion knight, which usually allows for that.

TLDR: a lot of players see making ranger impossible due to Brd using a bow when 2.5 mages use a staff, or just because of pigeonholing. It's a total lack of imagination and like "the nail that stands out gets hammered first" thing. The above is literally a cookie-cutter ranger with a european shamanistic element and a unique weapon that was also meant to bring to mind RDM

I love the hybrid aspect of it. I wish there were more hybrid characters.

I'd love to see something as a "Singing healer".

Using the voice to heal makes things different of Bard and Dancer simply cause one play an instrument and the other one is just dancing. But no one is actually singing.

You can even make a joke spell about that, one that push back the enemy, named FUS RO DAH (Yeah I know, wrong game boy)

Althought, damaging people while using your voice... Seems like your voices is so horrible to hear that monster start to bleed from the ears xD

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Originally Posted by MPNZ

Yeah, I'm probably thinking of the onion knight, which usually allows for that.

TLDR: a lot of players see making ranger impossible due to Brd using a bow when 2.5 mages use a staff, or just because of pigeonholing. It's a total lack of imagination and like "the nail that stands out gets hammered first" thing. The above is literally a cookie-cutter ranger with a european shamanistic element and a unique weapon that was also meant to bring to mind RDM

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Even Onion Knight doesn't mix and match jobs so much as is a job with a broad moveset in some versions.

And I don't think Ranger is impossible because it shares a weapon. More than Black/White/Blue Mage all using staves (and Red sometimes), we also have a lot of swords. We could very easily see Ranger. I think the question is if there is enough drive for a Ranger job when we have Bard. From what I can tell more people would rather see a new Bard as the current one doesn't really hit the themes for Bard as well, while compared to Ranger Bard (XIV) hits the themes pretty close. Doesn't help that as a job all it really has to its name pretty much is "uses a bow" like a number of FF physical jobs.