Tales from the Shadows

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Originally Posted by Elladie

So the logic of time travel is always one to explode peoples' minds but .... two contradictory things make me wonder if we're completely wrong about what's going on. Alexander says we can't go back in the past to change the future; everything that happened with Alexander was orchestrated to produce the 'right' future but it was always going to do that because apparently 'them's the laws'. Then suddenly Gra'ha et al throw that out of the window and DO change the future. But .... hold on .... they can't have changed the future because if they did, Gra'ha would cease to exist. So there's a time loop that exists on the way to the Bad Future that DOESN'T ACTUALLY CHANGE ANYTHING. Because it ALWAYS HAPPENED. That allows Alexander's Law to stand and also allows Gra'ha not to disappear; since nothing is different, of course he wouldn't disappear, and he was able -as he and we thought - to change time because nothing has changed in fact.
I would love them to go this way just because it would make a great story imo. Of course I'm just speculating but I can't currently come up with anything else that lets both Alexander's Law and Gra'ha continuing be true
And this is really badly expressed, but I'm rambling lol. I'll try and put it better once I'm not typing on my phone

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I think you basically just expressed the alternate timelines idea. 8th Umbral timeline is unchanged and continues on, while our timeline has been effected by Exarch!G'raha. And you are right, this allows for "Alexander's Law" to still be true. Exarch!G'raha was always meant to hop from the 8th Umbral timeline to ours.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

You are right, if timelines continue to exist then them changing it would not matter to us. But I have honestly a big problem with the theory that the bad one still exists. First this means that a unlimited amount of timelines can exists because everyone can choose something different thus altering the timeline. Which makes my brain at least hurt and gives me the feeling like we are not worth much. Just one of the many timelines in game.

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I mean, I do think its a given that alternate timelines means infinite alternate timelines. For one thing, you can say that everyone's individual instance of the WoL is an example of an alternate timeline, hence why G'raha can pull 7 more of us in to help his WoL in that final battle with Hades. We all experience it cus Exarch!G'raha did it for each of us in our dimension where our character is the WoL.

But multiple timelines doesn't make us worth less than before. Our existence and success very much matter to those in our timeline.

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Originally Posted by Alleluia

I do think its a given that alternate timelines means infinite alternate timelines.

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You're probably right, but I find something deeply unsettling about the idea. We'd already played by one-timeline, four-dimensional rules with Alexander, so it feels weird already. But infinite multiverse timelines in fiction make me very nervous. (Especially in FFXIV, where we already had 14 diverging timelines.)

For starters, suddenly the setting is so much smaller, philosophically, which is usually a net loss. Our world is also significant for no reason other than that it is "ours". In a game that so highlights the personal sacrifices of the Warrior of Light for "everyone else", doesn't that feel a little weird? To "other" the "other everyone elses" like that? And then there's that it guarantees that everything we've ever faced still exists somewhere, and in a multiverse with ways to cross boundaries. Nothing is ever truly safe. Nothing is every truly over. It makes me anxious for the narrative, lol.

I'm hoping that it's a one-time, hail-mary, "shouldn't-even-have-been-possible" fluke of cosmic proportions due to the path the Warrior of Light cut through history. For an excuse to limit it to just these two timelines, I look to The Twinning. The dungeon name refers to a macle, when a second crystal grows up through a first using an inverse lattice. It's probably just be a clever reference to, "Because the other branch of history was deleted, there's two Syrcus Towers, now!" ... but what if it referred to the origin "crystal" being the doomed history with an "inverse" timeline growing through it as a result of our actions?

/LalafellinPanicEmotes

My running theory on time travel is that we do not get lots of alternate timelines spawning off decisions or anything. As shown in Alexander, there is one timeline which is usually stable - but even in that story, there are hints that time could have been changed once people started messing with time travel, but was "kept on the right path" by Alexander.

I think that a split in the timeline is only possible when a time traveler does something that 'breaks' the timeline's natural stable state and makes it impossible for events to lead to the future they came from - otherwise their actions just get incorporated into the single stable timeline.

So at most, one timeline break "per trip back in time" and that's only if they manage to break something. And time travel itself is very rare.

Actually, thinking about it, mechanics in the a12 fight show that not doing something that should be done forcibly changes the timeline. Whether this fits with actual lore is another question.

Holy shit guys (sorry for the language) but I FOUND ALPHA AND OMG on their adventure!!!!!


https://scontent-mia3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...56&oe=5E08B3A8

Haha yeah, they turn up in quite a few different places! Some are easy to spot, some are out of the way like Behemoth's domain in Coerthas. I've also seen them in Ok' Zundu and I think people said they can be in the upstairs kitchen at Revenant's Toll.

Nice that's the first time I've EVER seen something like that. I've never even seen Ghost edda (if it actually happens) in Grid.

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Originally Posted by Rannie

Nice that's the first time I've EVER seen something like that. I've never even seen Ghost edda (if it actually happens) in Grid.

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I remember reading that Ghost Edda had a very slim chance of appearing in the 3 original city states during the patch tam tara hard was released. But I was under the impression they got rid of the easter egg the next patch, or at the latest, when floor 50 of PoTD wrappeded up Edda's story.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

But infinite multiverse timelines in fiction make me very nervous.

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Where's FFXI's Atomos when we need him??? He kept things so tidy.

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Originally Posted by Alleluia

I mean, I do think its a given that alternate timelines means infinite alternate timelines. For one thing, you can say that everyone's individual instance of the WoL is an example of an alternate timeline, hence why G'raha can pull 7 more of us in to help his WoL in that final battle with Hades. We all experience it cus Exarch!G'raha did it for each of us in our dimension where our character is the WoL.

But multiple timelines doesn't make us worth less than before. Our existence and success very much matter to those in our timeline.

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I guess I just dislike it when stories go that way. We could have had a simple: Change the past and thus change the future with Graha being a paradox that can only somehow exist thanks to the crystal tower. (And imo this is still not off the table as a possibility)

Different timelines in a universe that is already split..can they touch each other? Would it be possible to have one timeline where the Ascians won and Zodiark by destroying the whole plane of current existance could collaps everything? (Could our character visit another timeline and just simply snatch Haurchefant out of it for greedy personal reasons? :'))

In the end if these different timelines exist then I feel happy and bad for the bad future..on one hand they can continue to exist...on the other hand they had done all this to change their future (Graha believed that he would cease to be so he believed that the bad future wont simply happen) and now they would sit there after generations of hard work, in a dying world and nothing changes...making them believe that it was a failed mission..

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Originally Posted by Alleluia

I mean, I do think its a given that alternate timelines means infinite alternate timelines.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

I guess I just dislike it when stories go that way. We could have had a simple: Change the past and thus change the future with Graha being a paradox that can only somehow exist thanks to the crystal tower. (And imo this is still not off the table as a possibility)

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"Could have had"? That is what we have, except with the possibility that the old timeline split off rather than ceased to exist.

It does not imply that it "is a given that alternate timelines means infinite multiple timelines". I don't think there's evidence for that in this story at all.

As I wrote earlier, how it is described - and taken in combination with information from Alexander - implies that there is ONE split in the timeline created under extraordinary circumstances where a time traveler interfered with the past of their origin timepoint, making it impossible for events to lead back to their original time.

ie. If G'raha simply traveled back in time but didn't change anything, only watched it happen, he would witness the Eighth Calamity and eventually see his younger self released from the tower and prepare to travel back in time. There would only be one stable (but dying) timeline.

Instead he has prevented the Calamity that happened in his original timeline, making it impossible to see those same events play out. He has "changed tracks" and is now on a different path that will not lead to the timeline he originated from. This (I believe) is the one time that the timeline splits as a result of his actions, forcing both timelines to exist because they are both part of 'his story'. Once that single split has occurred, there won't be another one because there is no pre-established future for him to contradict from this point onwards.

The exact way he describes the plan to change time (in his conversation with Urianger) is a to create a "crossroads" - one deliberate point where we can take one path or the other.


Also interesting: the bit about the Namazu implying that - assuming we can trust Gyoshin's visions and Seigetsu's interpretation - he might be able to receive visions from the good future and not just the bad one, though perhaps only prior to "reaching the crossroads" and going down the other path.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

(Could our character visit another timeline and just simply snatch Haurchefant out of it for greedy personal reasons? :'))

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From my take on it: no, you can't.

You can't just "visit another timeline" and do this for the satisfaction of knowing he survives somewhere - you would travel back in time to that point, rescue him right in front of your very confused younger self... and you've split the timeline, because that is definitely not how you personally saw the event play out last time.

So now you're on a different path of history to the one you arrived from - can you return to the "present"? Or would you travel forward in time to realise you're still in that altered timeline where the other version of you - the one that saw you rescue Haurchefant - is the Warrior of Light doing all the Warrior-of-Lighty things you did. Meanwhile, you're stuck (and your 'home timeline' is minus a WoL) until the Ironworks manage to go an extra step in figuring out how to cross not only time and dimensions but also timelines. So good luck with that.

Well I would be happy if this is only a one time deal (but its still kinda bad for that other timeline since they would never know that they succeeded) but we just cant be sure. If a split can somehow happen who is to say that it did not already happen? We only know of this one but I do fear that this could lead to more.

And if someone from the bad future can see events from our path, doesnt that show that it is in some way connected? And who is to say that a god-like being like Zodiark could then not have the power to travel between that? We are talking about something that was able to make a whole planet alive again and who rewrote the rules of reality. So even just that one timeline existing could already be dangerous because we simply wont know what happens there and they are at least one more step nearer to release Zodiark.

(The part with Haurchefant was meant as a joke)

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Well I would be happy if this is only a one time deal (but its still kinda bad for that other timeline since they would never know that they succeeded)

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I didn't address this but last night because I wanted to give it more thought, but I've realised there is no circumstance in which the people from the other timeline would be aware that the past had been successfully changed.

Their options are:

Timeline is erased: The world essentially ceases to exist once G'raha departs. Unless there's some kind of artistic "slow unraveling" of reality, they will not exist to realise that their non-existence indicates a successful timeline change.

Timeline continues: Much like G'raha at the end of Shadowbringers, their anticipated lack-of-existence fails to occur, and they're left asking "well, what now?"

Left to theorise over this new piece of information about how time works, they may reach the conclusion that they can never be certain that their plan worked - but they did what they could, and continue to hope that it succeeded.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

And if someone from the bad future can see events from our path, doesnt that show that it is in some way connected?

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That's not how I was meaning it, actually. I took it as a sign that rather than there being one "original timeline" and one "altered timeline" that only comes into existence once we create it, both exist as equal possible futures if you are looking into (or receiving messages from) the future at a point before the timeline splits.

Gyoshin's vision was during the Namazu questline in 4.3, prior to the point where G'raha starts trying to summon us in 4.4. That means that at that point, when he's having visions of a "future that could be", the good future is already an option.

Maybe a good way of visualising it is if the timeline is a tunnel that we're walking through. By changing the timeline, we dug a second tunnel and now there's a fork in the path. Once you reach that fork, you have to go one way or the other and can only see that one path ahead of you - but for someone who hasn't reached that point yet, they can look ahead and see down both paths at once.

(I'm not sure if this adds anything to the theorising or just confuses people, but it makes sense in my head. The 'new' timeline is just as real a future as the one that was 'always there'.)

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Originally Posted by Alleo

(The part with Haurchefant was meant as a joke)

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Oh well. It gave me an opportunity to explain my logic. Hope it made sense.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Well I would be happy if this is only a one time deal (but its still kinda bad for that other timeline since they would never know that they succeeded) but we just cant be sure. If a split can somehow happen who is to say that it did not already happen? We only know of this one but I do fear that this could lead to more.

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For what it's worth, remember what we learned from the Alex raids. Alexander used his prodigious powers to consider all possible timelines and came to the conclusion that the only timeline that did not result in the end of the world was when Alex secreted himself away in his little pocket dimension so there would be no risk of his power being used and bringing about the world's destruction. Part of that vision was that the only successful timeline was muddled in such a way that Alex only knew that there was a possibility that the world would survive, and that said possibility would only manifest in the timeline in which we, the WoL, defeated Alexander and continued to do what we had been doing. I think this "muddling" was Alex seeing the timeline split that came about when the Ironworks sent CT and G'raha back in time to the First. My point here being that the primal of time itself saw only a single diverging point in all the infinite futures that were considered, which lends a lot of credence to the idea that this was a one-time deal. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if at some point in the future we are responsible for creating at least some of the conditions that eventually allow for events of ShB to unfold in the future, essentially wrapping all this up into another stable time loop.

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Originally Posted by Quor

I think this "muddling" was Alex seeing the timeline split that came about when the Ironworks sent CT and G'raha back in time to the First. My point here being that the primal of time itself saw only a single diverging point in all the infinite futures that were considered, which lends a lot of credence to the idea that this was a one-time deal.

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It definitely adds up, although Dayan was talking about Alexander's predictions like it's a computer running mathematical calculation of possibilities, rather than actually seeing the future, which shouldn't allow for discovering "unexpected" variables... unless it's good enough to predict everything up to the time travel invention and where they would go with it.

Even before all this, it seemed like Alexander needed more omniscience than a computer should have to make those predictions... will need to ask about it at the next lore Q&A opportunity, I think.

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Originally Posted by Quor

Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if at some point in the future we are responsible for creating at least some of the conditions that eventually allow for events of ShB to unfold in the future, essentially wrapping all this up into another stable time loop.

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I'm not sure what you're picturing here.

The whole point of the time-travel plot was ensuring that we couldn't have a stable time loop, because that would lead straight back into the Eighth Calamity and the exact dark future that G'raha was trying to prevent from happening.

(If he'd failed his mission and couldn't save us or prevent the Calamity, that would result in a stable time loop - his actions are part of the overall timeline, even though he didn't successfully change anything.)

The events of Shadowbringers seem designed to "drive a wedge into the loop" and force us to take a different path from the natural flow of time, by making it impossible for circumstances to lead to the events he knows as history.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I'm not sure what you're picturing here.

The whole point of the time-travel plot was ensuring that we couldn't have a stable time loop, because that would lead straight back into the Eighth Calamity and the exact dark future that G'raha was trying to prevent from happening.

(If he'd failed his mission and couldn't save us or prevent the Calamity, that would result in a stable time loop - his actions are part of the overall timeline, even though he didn't successfully change anything.)

The events of Shadowbringers seem designed to "drive a wedge into the loop" and force us to take a different path from the natural flow of time, by making it impossible for circumstances to lead to the events he knows as history.

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I'm not saying it happened for sure, more that there is a lot of unknowns that could end up being filled in with something. A lot of time passed between the 8th Calamity and when CT got sent back in time to the First, which from a writing perspective leaves room for adding all sorts of stuff in as (or if) the plot demands.

I'm kind of torn between a bit of eye-rolling at "of course that's why he's called Hades" and a nod of acknowledgement that if the writers were going to tie his name with some meaningful lore, this was probably the quickest way to do so.

This short story was all I could've asked for. I love it.

However, it makes me question whether Emet-Selch truly holds the title 'the Architect'. I never found a source for that to begin with...

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Originally Posted by RicaRuin

This short story was all I could've asked for. I love it.

However, it makes me question whether Emet-Selch truly holds the title 'the Architect'. I never found a source for that to begin with...

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Sound like Hythlodaeus was the Architect perhaps?

Loved the story. This is my favourite so far, especially the snippets at the end that explained so much about Hades and about Varis. If Solus' son hadn't died, how much might have changed .....

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Originally Posted by RicaRuin

This short story was all I could've asked for. I love it.

However, it makes me question whether Emet-Selch truly holds the title 'the Architect'. I never found a source for that to begin with...

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I believe it was simply a misnomer on our behalf due to reasons, but yes, it is never stated that he was Architect in the game, and it appears that instead it was Hythlodaeus. Also they really teasing our original self being close friends with Hades.

Good. It really bugged me that everyone referred to Hades as 'the Architect' without citing a source. Hope those Wiki pages will be corrected as well.

I wonder if there is any relevance to Phoenix essentially showing up in that story? A little bonus explanation as to how Louisoix ended up merging with it, perhaps? Hope it's not foreshadowing anything... Only Deus ex Phoenix I want to see is Alphinaud finally popping out a Phoenix-Egi.

Nice to see that Hades is the OG Primal Slayer, too.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

I wonder if there is any relevance to Phoenix essentially showing up in that story? A little bonus explanation as to how Louisoix ended up merging with it, perhaps? Hope it's not foreshadowing anything... Only Deus ex Phoenix I want to see is Alphinaud finally popping out a Phoenix-Egi.

Nice to see that Hades is the OG Primal Slayer, too.

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Is this Phoenix an actual Primal as we understand it, though? It mostly seems unusual in the context of the story because it is an arcane construct with a soul, unlike everything else the Amaurotines (and possibly other Ancients) created. As far as I can tell, the presence (or absence) of a soul is not really relevant to Primal-dom, except possibly in the sense of "to be sapient, you need a soul".

As far as I can tell, Hades's responsibility here is to use his special connection to the Lifestream/Underworld to send this aether back forcibly. That, or maybe it's his power as a "sorcerer of eld", ie being a better mage than everyone else.

Also prior to this I assumed that Louisiox becoming the Phoenix Primal was because he heard the legends about Suzaku via some Sharlayan academic route, and used that as inspiration for a life-giving being, but with this story I'm beginning to wonder if there's a much earlier common mythical source for both Suzaku and Louisoix's Phoenix. Especially since there's the tantalizing hypothesis that the architecture and design of Akademia Anyder seems to be surprisingly close to what we know of Sharlayan architecture.

(Then again, it could just be a commonality in out-of-universe inspirations, ie pop culture Ancient Greece.)

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

Is this Phoenix an actual Primal as we understand it, though? It mostly seems unusual in the context of the story because it is an arcane construct with a soul, unlike everything else the Amaurotines (and possibly other Ancients) created. As far as I can tell, the presence (or absence) of a soul is not really relevant to Primal-dom, except possibly in the sense of "to be sapient, you need a soul".

As far as I can tell, Hades's responsibility here is to use his special connection to the Lifestream/Underworld to send this aether back forcibly. That, or maybe it's his power as a "sorcerer of eld", ie being a better mage than everyone else.

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I was under the impression that Primals do have souls at this point. Ifrit is very clearly Ifrit, Ramuh very clearly has sentience and a fairly long memory. If they were just new constructs as a result of Creation Magic (albeit a significantly nerfed version, due to the Sundering) they wouldn't retain memories, surely? They'd be far more limited by the imagination of their summoners, it makes more sense to me that "Ramuh" is pulled out of the Lifestream whenever he is summoned. As such, I imagine the Amaurot Phoenix to be something like a Proto-Primal, wouldn't be surprised if this case was reviewed and the concept refined to eventually summon Zodiark, at least.

Either way, I meant it more as a joke than anything too serious; Hades gets called in to use his gift to undo an undying creation, much the same way we constantly get called in to use our gift (the Echo) to undo undying Primals.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

Also prior to this I assumed that Louisiox becoming the Phoenix Primal was because he heard the legends about Suzaku via some Sharlayan academic route, and used that as inspiration for a life-giving being, but with this story I'm beginning to wonder if there's a much earlier common mythical source for both Suzaku and Louisoix's Phoenix. Especially since there's the tantalizing hypothesis that the architecture and design of Akademia Anyder seems to be surprisingly close to what we know of Sharlayan architecture.

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As I recall, Suzaku also heard legends of an immortal fire-bird, prior to essentially becoming that herself as well, with people mistaking her for the legendary bird back then. Perhaps legends of Suzaku are where Louisiox got the idea from, but with this tale the inception for "Phoenix" is clearly in Amaurot.

Louisiox also never intended to become Phoenix, or even to summon it in the first place. He did so accidentally, and it did always strike me as a bit odd that he also accidentally did so with an entirely new form of summoning as well, given it wasn't until Ysayle that "becoming" a Primal was really a thing, and Ascian dialog back then made it fairly clear that that was a new concept. Here though, we have a story of Phoenix's inception, and it just happening to merge with a drifting soul? So... I guess that's just something Phoenix does in this universe? Gets popped into existence, then merges with the most available soul; In the case of the Calamity, that was Louisiox.

Also, I didn't pick this up on my first read, but;

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"Consumed by the fear of death, it thrashes blindly about. It will know only pain and suffering and inflict the same upon others. A pitiful existence."

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Oh the irony...

fun fact: the French and German version of the new story come with a male or female WoL toggle, which will change the gender of the unnamed friend Hythlodeus mentions. And speaking of our old new friend, the detail about him having even better "lifestream & soul vission" than Hades probably explains why he was the only one to ever notice Ardberd's ghost.

So everytime he spoke I heard Emet's voice.... I really liked the story though I wish I knew why he didn't want to get in touch with that "certain someone" but *shrugs* I do hope that wasnt the last last one and more will come out.

Poor Varis, to be told i hate your body by your grandfather is just crushing to hear and very much explains why he hates Solus as much as he did from spitting at his coffin to just shooting him (a fair bit of venting might even be why he choose to clone Solus specifically either revenge or wanting acceptance). Now obviously does not excuse what Varis does but it does start to show why Varis was so gunho about being the perfect race, he just wanted to be accepted by his grandfather but this need grew distorted over time to malicious uncaring thought for anything even his own son, this singular desire could be the reason Varis had Zenos be experimented on in the 1st place to try and make that perfect body for his grandsire.

It is interesting to know Hades was the last to be apart of the convocation of the fourteen, meaning our original self already held a prominent position within Amaurotian society before Emet-Selch seat was filled, wonder what we were in charge of and what our seat name was too.

Crazy theory time, i wonder if the soul of that Phoenix was the start of the cry/voice that started making everything go foobar, fear of death is a very powerful fear and for near immortal beings with creation magics could be spread fast from a singular point creating untold destruction. It would be also add another layer of sadness to Hades's tale if he inadvertently caused the original calamity by forcing this soul back into the underworld.

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

It is interesting to know Hades was the last to be apart of the convocation of the fourteen, meaning our original self already held a prominent position within Amaurotian society before Emet-Selch seat was filled, wonder what we were in charge of and what our seat name was too..

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I've only read the new story once so there was probably much that I overlooked but, if the WoL's original self was already a part of the convocation (assuming we're right and they were), wouldn't they already know about Hades appointment to the position? Rather than having to be told so by Hades or learning of it through rumour?

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Originally Posted by Nalien

I was under the impression that Primals do have souls at this point. Ifrit is very clearly Ifrit, Ramuh very clearly has sentience and a fairly long memory. If they were just new constructs as a result of Creation Magic (albeit a significantly nerfed version, due to the Sundering) they wouldn't retain memories, surely? They'd be far more limited by the imagination of their summoners, it makes more sense to me that "Ramuh" is pulled out of the Lifestream whenever he is summoned. As such, I imagine the Amaurot Phoenix to be something like a Proto-Primal, wouldn't be surprised if this case was reviewed and the concept refined to eventually summon Zodiark, at least.

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It definitely seems that way. From the accidental creation of an arcane construct with a soul thanks to a defiant one flailing around in the Lifestream(?), to the deliberate creation of arcane constructs summoned by the user sacrificing their soul(Quetzacoatl), ultimately leading to His creation.

I want Varis to come back and tell us all about old man Solus. He must have lived a miserable youth if that confrontation was anything to go by.

Also, white hair. Now'm really curious about Hades' original face and body... and what the heck they'll do with all those Solus clones just kinda sitting around.

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Originally Posted by Gula

I want Varis to come back and tell us all about old man Solus. He must have lived a miserable youth if that confrontation was anything to go by.

Also, white hair. Now'm really curious about Hades' original face and body... and what the heck they'll do with all those Solus clones just kinda sitting around.

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It makes me want to see how an Ancient truly looked like behind the robes and mask now way more than before~

This was definitely a loretastic Tale! Additional insights into life in Amaurot are definitely welcome, as are snippets of insight into the lives of our favorite omnicidal maniacs back when they were normal (if rather above-average) people.

It did bring up a few very puzzling things, though! The Underworld, for instance... Is this supposed to be the Lifestream? If so, is it the SAME Lifestream we know? It appears that there's a cycle of life and death involving the Underworld... are the Ancients themselves, being immortal beings, not a part of it? Or are they still subject to it on the rare occasions when they do die, or are born?

And the fact that Creations have no souls (unless a stray soul gets tangled up in the Creation process)... Zodiark and Hydaelyn are both Creations, as well - does that mean they have no souls? Or were they, perhaps given souls deliberately? Perhaps this is why the sacrifice of half the Ancients was necessary, so their souls could become Zodiark's soul? As for contemporary Creations (Primals, basically) - do they have souls? Or are they just cleverly designed to appear as though they have souls? If they do have souls, do those souls persist when they are not currently summoned, so the Primal gets the same soul each time?

It may be significant, that in contemporary times the idea of creating a Soul doesn't seem to be that big a deal (the Heavensward Relic being one example), whereas the Ancients considered it to be flat-out impossible. This may be due to the way that the current Lifestream is constantly dispersing and assembling souls - soulstuff may simply be more malleable now?

And the immortal bird... I definitely think this is meant to be the Phoenix that inspired the legends that lead to both Suzaku's evolution and Lousouix's en-Primaling. Well, probably. I mean, unless Hades failed to put it down, it doesn't appear as though the poor thing had much of a chance of getting itself widely known. Maybe Lahabrea made another soulless version, later. And speaking of Lahabrea, I can't help but wonder whether this was truly an "accident". Could the guy have incorporated a soul deliberately? Or, perhaps, even tried to create one, was semi-successful, and lied about it to cover his misdeeds? We know Lahabrea as a cackling supervillian, and while this MAY be the result of his transformation into an Ascian, perhaps the guy had a dark streak all along...

So much food for thought!

I am crying. 'Tis everything I wanted, a snippet of Emet's life in ancient Amaurot. It seems he was pretty reclusive back then, an interesting change from the man we came to know, but at the same time mayhap it was this special sensory with every kind of life and soul that made him, in a sense, the most sociable of the Ascians.

Apparently Hythlodaeus was the original smug, cheeky character, more similar to Emet in the present. That was adorable. Also they do mention the WoL/D's past Amaurotine incarnation! Emet seemed a bit tsundere about them and Hythlodaeus was certainly trying to convince him to break the news in person. I wonder if Emet was shy and that was why he loved theatre and stuff, 'tis often said that those who are most timid are who best work as actors.

The final part with how he held a glimpse of hope as he cradled his newborn son was extremely heartwarming and sad. I firmly believe Emet is, or was -until his fate is certain, I am keeping both options possible- not beyond redemption. It would be a nice change for once that a relevant villain got a redemption not through death, and if Emet had such a stout bond with the Underworld, who knows... Meh, if the WoL/D is the unbroken thread between past and future, they could also be the thread that allows the ancients and the fragmented to join hands. Seize a better future, as Ardbert once put it.

But that is just one of my ramblings. I shall re-read this one quite a few times, searching for details. Anything that gives me insight into Emet-Selch is more than welcome. And this story was such a marvelous treat.

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Originally Posted by ShadowMeowth

Emet seemed a bit tsundere about them and Hythlodaeus was certainly trying to convince him to break the news in person.

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Great. Now I can't get him out of my head as the tsundere to Zenos' yandere and Exarch's dandere.

Thank you blessed writers for this expansion gawd.

The thing that stood out the most to me about this latest update is that Emet-Selch is annoyed by the incurably smug.

Emet-Selch.

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Originally Posted by Berteaux_Braumegain

The thing that stood out the most to me about this latest update is that Emet-Selch is annoyed by the incurably smug.

Emet-Selch.

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'Twould seem the OG overpowered gifted and his why-is-this-jerk-my-friend duo were Hades and Hythlodaeus. History repeats with the WoL/D and Emet. I guess some things never change.

I guess it just goes to show how hard the loss hit Hades, carrying his departed friend's legacy by adapting some of his personality into his own. I wonder if it was a conscious decision on Hades' part or if he started acting so snarky and flippant over time without realizing it.

The "Proto-Phoenix" is also interesting, probably being a precursor to what we'd now know as primals. More importantly, this discovery was almost certainly pivotal to the summoning of Zodiark and the subsequent summoning of Hydaelyn. What's intriguing is that this discovery was completely accidental, and not the product of deliberate research, though apparently making souls for their creations was something the Ancients had tried doing previously and failed. Makes me more suspicious that other such accidents led to bring about some of the events of the Terminus. But I wonder if it was the creation magic that provoked the "sound" that began the Terminus or if something else was in play that caused it. Did the breakdown of this magic bring it all about, or did the magics go haywire as a result of the Terminus? Or perhaps another as-of-yet unknown external influence affected the world and the magic altogether? Still so much seems unclear and/or unanswered for now. I suppose it's for future patches to elucidate though. Even so, the story did give some insight into Hades and his past, which is definitely awesome.

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Originally Posted by Scintilla

I've only read the new story once so there was probably much that I overlooked but, if the WoL's original self was already a part of the convocation (assuming we're right and they were), wouldn't they already know about Hades appointment to the position? Rather than having to be told so by Hades or learning of it through rumour?

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It depends on how it is structured, and if anything more important came up for the individual like child birth or a disaster within the sector we (if we are apart of the convocation) are in charge of. It could be a majority vote within reason (most members present etc) or it might be unanimous but we don't know, based on the story Hades was just appointed that day and it seems like it is nighttime so it is possible we could/couldn't have known about it by that point.

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Originally Posted by MrThinker

I believe it was simply a misnomer on our behalf due to reasons, but yes, it is never stated that he was Architect in the game, and it appears that instead it was Hythlodaeus. Also they really teasing our original self being close friends with Hades.

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Let me ask then, from where did you think that Architect is a role, capital A? If we do in fact take it from a seated title (Words of Lahabrea) then isn't the case that Hythlodaeus is not it as Hythlodaeus refuses to take the seat/role?

Emet-Selch is mentioned as an "architect", lower case emphasis but it's not the same moments as they are called "speaker" and "emissary". Emet-Selch may not be Architect, but Hythlodaeus is not it as they refused to be a part of the Convocation.

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Originally Posted by Scintilla

I've only read the new story once so there was probably much that I overlooked but, if the WoL's original self was already a part of the convocation (assuming we're right and they were), wouldn't they already know about Hades appointment to the position? Rather than having to be told so by Hades or learning of it through rumour?

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The story is only that Emet-Selch was newly seated. We don't have any sort of indication of the timeline. It could be that the friend is part of the Convocation but not involved in the appointment or in my opinion it's more likely that the ancient!WoL was not appointed until later. That the Final End for Amaurot is far off in time.