So, can we just ban damage meters already.

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Originally Posted by Forever_Learning

Simply stating "DPS pull your weight" or simply stating "DPS - do more damage" IS harrassement.

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If you’re asking for a DPS to deal damage—which is their primary job—how is that harassment? Asking a DPS to AOE, apply DoTs, do a basic rotation, or fulfill any aspect of their basic role isn’t harassment. It’s asking for them to do the job they queued up as.

This is like saying “tank - hold aggro” or “tank - use cooldowns” or “healer, please heal” is harassment. You’re asking for a person to fulfill a basic role that they’re clearly not fulfilling. It’s very easy to tell if DPS aren’t pulling their weight when things take forever and a day to die. Parsers aren’t needed to tell when things are dying slowly.

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Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

Unless SE offers something with the same current freedoms as 3rd party parsers, why would anyone switch?

You also forget the competitive aspect of FFLogs, which would still require a 3rd party parser.

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You actually make a completely solid point.
Oh well, lets hope that SE gonna finally give up and accept that parsing is here to stay.

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Originally Posted by Saintly

You actually make a completely solid point.
Oh well, lets hope that SE gonna finally give up and accept that parsing is here to stay.

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They don't care if you parse or not. They care if you use your parsing to directly cause toxicity in the community. If they cared about parse use everyone who mentioned they used one would be banned even in this forum. Searching all pot with the word Parse is simple enough.

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Originally Posted by Uliq

They don't care if you parse or not. They care if you use your parsing to directly cause toxicity in the community. If they cared about parse use everyone who mentioned they used one would be banned even in this forum. Searching all pot with the word Parse is simple enough.

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Allow me to rephrase then.
Lets hope that SE gonna finally give up and accept that there's nothing toxic about talking why a group failing DPS checks in optional content thats not required for MSQ.

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Originally Posted by Forever_Learning

Simply stating "DPS pull your weight" or simply stating "DPS - do more damage" IS harrassement.

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How?

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Originally Posted by Forever_Learning

I'm not twisting your words, I am discussing your point, I'm stating your sentence was overly vague.

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Not what you did at all. If it was you would have said: "your post is vague". Instead, you insinuated I said calling someone bad or that they should unsub wasn't harassment.

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Originally Posted by Forever_Learning

There's a million ways to help someone they need to improve, some that could be considered harrasement.

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This depends on each individual person and, honestly, a lot of it isn't worth reporting even if you take it the wrong way.

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Originally Posted by Forever_Learning

The medium is the message- it matters more how you deliver a message rather than the point you actually want to make.

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Yes. Exactly.

Umm, where did I say it wasn't?

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Originally Posted by Forever_Learning

Harassement has more to do with you delivered the message rather than the message expressed.

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Again, yes. But I never said "it is all the same" or anything. I was stating that stating what I listed is not harassment. I didn't think I needed to clarify that insulting someone or attacking them is harassment.

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Originally Posted by Forever_Learning

No one is getting reported for politely asking a tank to use tank stance.

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They are though. Rarely, probably, but it happens.

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Originally Posted by Forever_Learning

Someone doing poor DPS doesn't give you the right to tell them to put their weight in whatever format you feel is appropriate.

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Yes it does. I am playing too and if they are dragging the team down or being carried because they are spamming one move or just auto-attacking I have a right to complain.

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Originally Posted by Forever_Learning

If anything, I am enhancing your statement by clarifying that there are limits to how you convey a message.

Rather than twist your words, I improved them by adding clarity.

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LMAO!

Ok.

Not sure how stating that what I said, that telling someone that they need to do more damage or carry their weight or that you want to carry them is not harassment, was the same as saying "you are bad, you aren't doing enough dps, unsub" is not harassment is enhancing my point. Especially when you didn't state that I was being vague or that you were expanding my point or clarifying things for people who may be confused.

My first sentence was "Simply stating "DPS pull your weight" or simply stating "DPS - do more damage" IS harrassement."

My response is that simply stating that is harrassement. I also didn't mention you personally. I stated that simply stating that sentence in isolation is harassment.

You seem kinda triggered and basically agreeing with everything I said, so I would recommend understanding that I wasn't attacking you, but rather the notion that any statement can be thrown out if the DPS is bad.

No we can't. I like to know how im performing.

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Originally Posted by Forever_Learning

My first sentence was "Simply stating "DPS pull your weight" or simply stating "DPS - do more damage" IS harrassement."

My response is that simply stating that is harrassement. I also didn't mention you personally. I stated that simply stating that sentence in isolation is harassment.

You seem kinda triggered and basically agreeing with everything I said, so I would recommend understanding that I wasn't attacking you, but rather the notion that any statement can be thrown out if the DPS is bad.

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I'm not triggered, I'm far too old for that, I grew up in a generation of respect and no safe places. You are the one acting as such though, flying those white knight colors and parading as in as the defender of the down trodden. I was simply stating my opinions and some facts. I never implied in any of my posts that I was being attacked either, rather confusing how you came to that conclusion.

I still stand by my statement that if someone takes offense to something so trivial and tiny in those passing seconds of their life, they need to stop playing and figure out why they got offended or hurt, then realize it was pointless to be offended or hurt in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Forever_Learning

My first sentence was "Simply stating "DPS pull your weight" or simply stating "DPS - do more damage" IS harrassement."
My response is that simply stating that is harrassement.

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I think you need to read up on the definition of "harassment".
Stating a simple fact is not and never will be considered harassment as long as the fact is conveyed in a non insulting manner.

If the boss wipes the floor with your rear end due to enrage, the BOSS ITSELF (I guess you consider that harassment too. :O )is already telling you that DPS players need to step up their game. Technically you don't need another player to spell it out for you.

Sounds like you are generalizing the entire community because of a few bad runs?
Learn from it and move on, seldom do i encounter rude jerks and the likes and i have been playing this game for around 6 years.

And no offence but based on some of your responses to others here that have offered opinions, you must also take responsibility for the outcome.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

I think you need to read up on the definition of "harassment".
Stating a simple fact is not and never will be considered harassment as long as the fact is conveyed in a non insulting manner.
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Exactly. 100% agreement.

When conveyed in a non insulting manner, it’s fine.

I was using the sentence “dps pull your weight” because I find the sentence unconstructive, but perhaps thats open to debate.

The point I was really trying to state is that harassment has more to do with how something is conveyed rather than what is actually conveyed.

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Originally Posted by Forever_Learning

I was using the sentence “dps pull your weight” because I find the sentence unconstructive, but perhaps thats open to debate.
The point I was really trying to state is that harassment has more to do with how something is conveyed rather than what is actually conveyed.

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Hmm it's already formulated somewhat aggressively.
I can see how it would ruffle feathers in an already stressful situation.

I'd probably write: "No one died (good!) but we need more DPS. Everybody seek possibilities to squeeze out some more but don't take unnecessary risks."
As long as people die, mentioning DPS is pointless. Mechanics need to come first and be played cleanly, only then can you optimize output/uptime.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Hmm it's already formulated somewhat aggressively.
I can see how it would ruffle feathers in an already stressful situation.

I'd probably write: "No one died (good!) but we need more DPS. Everybody seek possibilities to squeeze out some more but don't take unnecessary risks."
As long as people die, mentioning DPS is pointless. Mechanics need to come first and be played cleanly, only then can you optimize output/uptime.

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I agree, no disagreement from me.

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Originally Posted by NekoNova

Mentioning it
Mentioning that someone's damange is lower then someone
Pasting numbers


It's enough to get a GM's attention it.
Running a meter is tolerated as long as it's used for yourself only and not against someone ingame.

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I had no idea that this was the case, but as a WoW refugee, I cannot tell you how happy I am to see this. I always used damage meters to help me improve my own game, but I always hated when others would post numbers to belittle everyone else or to emphasize how over-geared they were for the content we were running. If no one is dying, I don't see how criticism of any sort is merited. Well-designed fights have much more to them than sheer DPS anyway.

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Originally Posted by Rivxkobe

Asking people to carry their weight or telling DPS they aren't doing enough damage and need to do more does not mean you are using "damage meters". Also, it isn't harassment.

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If the party is repeatedly wiping and someone is spending half the fight AFK, then it may be justified. If you're clearing bosses in a timely manner and no one is dying, then it's harassment. Context is everything.

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Originally Posted by Ronduwil

I had no idea that this was the case, but as a WoW refugee, I cannot tell you how happy I am to see this. I always used damage meters to help me improve my own game, but I always hated when others would post numbers to belittle everyone else or to emphasize how over-geared they were for the content we were running. If no one is dying, I don't see how criticism of any sort is merited. Well-designed fights have much more to them than sheer DPS anyway.

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Yeah, this isnt like WoW where reports a waist of time. If anything, they are taken so seriously that you should honestly have a clear case before reporting it because there’s increasingly people in fear of saying anything due to fear of being banned.

Like, for a parser, I would want some actual numbers rather than just assume they have one. I dont need a parser to tell the tank isnt in tank stance for example.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

Personally I experienced the overall community of this game as pretty welcoming, supporting and friendly - given that you do your part, including making sure you have appropriate gear, a general knowledge of your job (that is appropriate of your current level) and of the general mechanics the game throws at you. It also includes communication with your party - saying "sorry", "hello", "I'm new" and "I'm open to any advice!" can go a long way. At least thats my experience.

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This has been my experience too. I was running through an instance for the first time as a White Mage the other day, and we wiped on a boss. The tank suggested that I would have a better time healing if I cleared the poison debuffs. This was the first time in this game that I had even seen debuffs in a dungeon, and I wasn't familiar with the poison icons. After he pointed this out, I made sure to look for the debuffs and clear them. We took out the boss on the next clear. The tank thanked me for adapting quickly and even gave me a commendation. No one rage quit or crapped all over me for having failed on the first attempt. That, in my opinion, is how an MMO experience should be.

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Originally Posted by Ronduwil

I had no idea that this was the case, but as a WoW refugee, I cannot tell you how happy I am to see this. I always used damage meters to help me improve my own game, but I always hated when others would post numbers to belittle everyone else or to emphasize how over-geared they were for the content we were running. If no one is dying, I don't see how criticism of any sort is merited. Well-designed fights have much more to them than sheer DPS anyway.

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If there is something to criticise it means that not everyone in the party was pulling their full weight (or there wouldnt be anything to criticise) and that means that the person(s) in question got through the content because the other people were able to make up for their shortcomings.
Now, I'm always asking the following question: If everyone performed at the level of the under-performing person would the content still be cleared in a reasonable amount of time?
If the answer is "No, it probably wouldnt" there is a problem with that person and that problem should be adressed - harrassment- and insult-free, of course, but polite and in the best outcome constructive criticism is absolutly warranted.

Most content in the game is so easy that you can under-performing players. That doesnt mean you should or have to.
Clearing content doesnt mean everyone in the party did well. Clearing content means that the party did well (or well enough to clear the content). That can include the party making up for the shortcomings of one of their members - something they shouldnt have to do. But how does that member get better or even knows that they need to get better if no one tells them?

Edit: I would also like to point out that "no one is dying" puts a lot of weight on the shoulders of the healer(s). Everyone can happly fail mechanics and not die as long as the healer(s) make up for those mistakes. Depending on my mood when healing I might be willing to heal people through their mistakes, so "no one is dying" - but only because I'm making sure about them not killing themselves by being stupid.

You just need to report them in game under the help button. Again save any chat log you have showing he's parsing you and it is a banable offense.

Why is telling someone that they are under performing (without any insults) is considered as harassment, but the fact that people let themselves to be lazy in duties and not care that with that they are hurting the group - is not?
Why is it that only bad players, those that don't want to improve can be harassed?
No one is ever asking anyone to know their job perfectly and make no mistakes. Just pull your weight and no one will ever tell you anything. Otherwise - use Trust System and don't harass players with your disrespect to their effort and time with your laziness.

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Originally Posted by WaterShield

They don't, but that's ok. It is wrong of people to dislike carrying dead weight through content and to point out issues so that they may be resolved. We should allow issues to fester and coddle everyone we meet in game, as they are innocent little animal babies who are helpless and need us dearly. It is morally wrong to leave them to their own inevitable destruction, rather than spend all of our own time and energy helping strangers for no gain. /S

The you don't pay my sub crowd is frankly ridiculous and indefensible at this stage. Asking someone to pull their weight, does not equal harassment.

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This post was an emotional roller-coaster until I got to the /s

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Originally Posted by Ronduwil

If no one is dying, I don't see how criticism of any sort is merited. Well-designed fights have much more to them than sheer DPS anyway.

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You have an unfortunate surprise waiting when you get into the higher end content.

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Originally Posted by WaterShield

I'm just very tired of the argument that "veterans feelings don't matter" but "protect the super casualsss!!!!!"

It's discriminatory.

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I completely agree. I'm tired of being made to look like a villain because I'm tired of carrying progressively worse players after 6 years of working to improve myself.

Ranted in a former FC chat about carrying actual dead weight once back in late HW, got called elitist and all associated terms, and I'm like okay so if I go into Dun Scaith and eat the floor for 90% of the fight that's fine?

Double standards yo, the community is riddled with them.

I read this post early on when it was less pages, was too tired to post, and don't want to go back and read the rest of them to see if someone pointed out the one tiny flaw that existed.

The person who suggested the OP wasn't pulling their weight could have no even been using a parse meter, they could have just been used the tools provided in game (as in the aggro check) and saw the dps lower than the healer and thus assumed the OP wasn't doing their job... thus one can't truly be sure they should be reported for using parses.
Granted it doesn't mean he wasn't (nor am I indicating the other dps should have called the OP out anyways, he didn't even seem to realize the guy died at all, which is just silly).

Just playing devil's advocate because I think the situation itself is silly and should just be ignored a whole. I mean the healer and the tank didn't say anything either so obviously they didn't care... just one person did (which happens in a lot of silly situations).

Guys, I have a simple solution


We should report all casual content-yes you read that right-that have dps checks. Failing the party for not clearing it is harassment because the content did not tell players how to constructively do better damage. Special shout out to the most toxic one of them all, Level Checker (Checking my dps level? Really? How dare you?). I'm reporting it also cuz it's a bot helping another bot fail me

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Because saying nothing more than “DPS pull your weight” isn’t constructive, you haven’t really explained how to improve, and it’s a borderline insult.

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It's not my job to do your research on how to do your job properly.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

It's not my job to do your research on how to do your job properly.

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It is if you criticize me. Either offer specific feedback or stay quiet.
Everything else is a waste of your breath.

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It is if you criticize me. Either offer specific feedback or stay quiet.

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Disagreed, but regardless, if those are your only acceptable offers, it's far more likely you'd just be kicked from the party without a word instead if you were found to be lacking -- and that's actually precisely what a number of people in this thread are recommending to do in cases like this, so that you don't get action taken against you for "harassment"

So, I guess, if that's what you'd rather have instead...

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Disagreed, but regardless, if those are your only acceptable offers, it's far more likely you'd just be kicked from the party without a word instead if you were found to be lacking -- and that's actually precisely what a number of people in this thread are recommending to do in cases like this, so that you don't get action taken against you for "harassment"

So, I guess, if that's what you'd rather have instead...

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I do my research and players don't have much to complain about. So it won't affect me personally.
I can understand the reluctance to go into detail b/c of the banhappy GMs/Mods.

It's a sad state of affairs when players shy away from giving constructive criticism but apparently that is the kind of community that SE wants.

I merely wanted to point out that going into to a rage and spewing "DPS DO MORE, GET GUD!" is helping no one. Not the person you "criticize" and most certainly not yourself. So it is -literally- wasted effort.

This is why I always ask people if they want some advice before saying anything. You'd be amazed at how many people just answer with "No" (and I'm talking people who single target in packs of 8+ mobs and really don't carry their weight.. whatchu gonna do?)

Using act in everything that isn't current ex or savage.
Yikes

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Originally Posted by Endariel

Using act in everything that isn't current ex or savage.
Yikes

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No one goes and opens ACT mid-game. They just open it before starting the game and hide the overlay until needed or just keep it showing always.

I played WoW and we had a dps meter only people that got salty about it are people that got called out for being bad

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Originally Posted by XenociderOmega

I played WoW and we had a dps meter only people that got salty about it are people that got called out for being bad

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Pretty much this. Most people in WoW use damage meters as a way to parse their own damage output, heal output, or to monitor what a raid is doing and things they can improve on. Its only the toxic people, who complain about things regardless, that use it as a means on enforcing how to play and even then its rare. What makes WoW toxic is that people know the minimum and maximum thresholds that classes should be able to output, and that has nothing to do with damage meters.

Honestly, from my experience in the "workforce", if you aren't pulling your weight, they usually aren't going to go out of their way to help you learn (beyond any sort of "basic training" that they give to all new employees); they will just can you and hire someone else, someone that won't need that extra effort on the company's part.


If you're lucky, you'll get a warning beforehand, but even then the warning is just going to amount to "git gud or else", not explicit details on what/how to do better.

Why are people talking about irl jobs. Working a job and playing a game are barely related. What, you can't run a farm irl? No wonder your gathering gear is so bad. Like what.

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Originally Posted by Miracle_Diva

Why is telling someone that they are under performing (without any insults) is considered as harassment, but the fact that people let themselves to be lazy in duties and not care that with that they are hurting the group - is not?

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Because it's just a game? I don't criticize those who treat their games like full time jobs, complete with performance reviews and peer evaluations. By that same token, however, I don't feel I should be criticized for not playing as industriously as the next guy. If I'm ignorantly doing something that is genuinely hurting the group, then I am open to criticism. If you want to come down on me in the dungeon roulette because I just leveled up and the gear recommendation button determined that my tank is supposed to be wearing cloth pants because the rest of my on-level gear is crap, then you should probably settle down. The last thing I want to encounter when playing a game at the end of my workday is another supervisor.

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Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

You have an unfortunate surprise waiting when you get into the higher end content.

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It won't be a surprise. That's why I said "well-designed." I cleared most of the Heroic raids in the WoW Cataclysm expansion. I'm very familiar with the "everyone needs to maximize their DPS and then some to beat the enrage timers" style of game design. I just think it's crappy. But I didn't think we were discussing high end content here. Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought we were talking about damage meters in the dungeon roulette, not end game raiding. If you're running end game raids with your guild, then of course criticism should be expected, embraced, and encouraged. If you're clearing bosses effortlessly with a bunch of sprouts in the dungeon roulette, however, you just come off like a jerk when you call someone out for under-performing.

Not sure why people are trying to say that just because it's a "game" that we can't hold people responsible for their actions. Games throughout the entire history of human existence have always been competitive or for self improvement in some form.

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Originally Posted by Ronduwil

It won't be a surprise. That's why I said "well-designed." I cleared most of the Heroic raids in the WoW Cataclysm expansion. I'm very familiar with the "everyone needs to maximize their DPS and then some to beat the enrage timers" style of game design. I just think it's crappy. But I didn't think we were discussing high end content here. Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought we were talking about damage meters in the dungeon roulette, not end game raiding. If you're running end game raids with your guild, then of course criticism should be expected, embraced, and encouraged. If you're clearing bosses effortlessly with a bunch of sprouts in the dungeon roulette, however, you just come off like a jerk when you call someone out for under-performing.

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And then they get to SB trials and lvl 80 dungeons and keep failing the DPS checks, wiping and failing mechanics because no one called them out for them to clean up their act. They'll carry on blissfully thinking everything's fine.