Ninja is weak, like very weak.

I really hope the next hotfix patch comes sooner then later because I'm getting annoyed with being denied spots in ES4 groups strictly because of my preferred class.

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Originally Posted by Vivi_Bushido

Would people even be okay if the devs took Trick Attack away?

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Either take it away, or make it a simple one button oGCD action, not the long cast sequence it has now.

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Originally Posted by RyuSaarva

I would rather have that high damage skill back which you had to use in front of enemies which shared the trick attack cooldown, it was much more fun to use.

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That was Sneak Attack. It was high single target damage with no debuff and a front positional. Trick Attack was a lower potency attack with the 10% vulnerability debuff and a rear positional. They shared a cooldown so Sneak Attack was pretty much never used outside of solo play.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

Again I'll say it. Ninjas have been the heaviest damage in previous FF games. Rogue, the class behind the Ninja job has likewise always been heavy hitting across MMORPGs for 20 years. Nothing about rogue screams I'm gonna buff peoples damage.

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Incorrect.

Rogue and Ninja were outclassed in every way by Fighter and Monk in Final Fantasy 1.

weeeeellllll, looking at rdps on a site like fflogs(i can't upload myself, so don't put that on me), NIN is even behind rdm on savage fights LOL

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Originally Posted by HWalsh

Incorrect.

Rogue and Ninja were outclassed in every way by Fighter and Monk in Final Fantasy 1.

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True, but Ninja has consistently been about efficiently dealing more damage via what could be termed as tricks.
Dualweilding for example, is mainly what has enabled Ninja to outclass other jobs in the series.

Same is true for FFXIV Ninja.
It has a lot of 'dualstrike' style mechanics, which it needs to capitalise more on.

Also Kaethra, nothing about Ninja says buffing party members, no, but that's not what Ninja does.
Ninja DEBUFFS the enemy, lowering their defense, which is entirely fitting.
Ninja's in the series have typically been about dualweilding, and throwing weapons, and typically they can throw weapons hat inflict debuffs like poison or silence. Occasionally they can use low level black magick, or in a couple cases, throw out special ninja scrolls for elemental damage.

So it's the defense debuff, which allows Ninja to compete with the harder hitting DPS.
Either this will always be the case, meaning Ninja's personal damage will never be able to compete, or they'l have to nerf Trick Attack, and then buff skills like Dream within a Dream and Bunshin, to enhance the 'dualstrike' aspect.

Look at the PF.
People are starting to purposely exclude ninja spots.
A PF party cannot cater to a ninja's needs/offers efficiently. So why bring an average ninja when you can bring the average monk who has the same or even lower ilvl and can outdps a ninja ?
TA is a gimp and a lousy one considering the fact that I have to bust my fingers on my keyboard to struggle getting close to a monk.

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Originally Posted by Baka_Neko1

weeeeellllll, looking at rdps on a site like fflogs(i can't upload myself, so don't put that on me), NIN is even behind rdm on savage fights LOL

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That's on trials only though. They seem to do better in the raid.

Looking at the target dummy HP values has made it pretty obvious that they severely overestimated how much personal DPS NIN would be outputting.

It's estimated that you need 11.65K DPS to destroy the ES4 dummy in three minutes, but the other melee only need about 1K more then that despite them doing around 2-3K more DPS.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

The absolute highest is 14.3k and the absolute lowest is 12.3k.
A 2k or 14% variance.

And that's at the absolute max numbers posted for those jobs. The variance is smaller at the lowest end, coming at 11%.

The most interesting thing about that data set is that it shows a neat linear path from Dancer up to Monk in the severity of DPS loss when resetting their buffs/rotation. Keep in mind, I'm referring to core dps, not what these jobs manage in their burst phases.
DNC, RDM and BRD are all very easy to go from 0 - 100% dps.
NIN has some buildup to its burst, But generally speaking Huton into AE with SF up and you're back to normal. It's level with SMN and MCH, Both of whom can reset their rotations fairly easily, but not quite as easily as the aforementioned 3.
Then we have SAM as a middle ground between the complexity of the upper 3 and the relative ease of the ones below. Just 2 buffs, a DoT and you're good to go.
And finally, we come to DRG, MNK and BLM. All of whom suffer the most from a rotation reset. Monks with GL being a pain to bring back to max, followed by BLM who basically is forced into its 'down' phase in order to reset and finally DRG, which has a core rotation not unlike SAM but has stages to its rotation, and falling to start of that is a hefty GCD cost to get everything flowing again.

So out of 10 DPS jobs, NIN is tied for 5th place with SMN and MCH. And considering the aforementioned DPS variance of just 11-14%, Balance is in a surprisingly good spot right now. I wouldn't expect anything more than very minor tweaks going forward.

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I couldn't disagree more with this. I've raided as a SCH, AST, NIN, SAM, DRG, BRD and now DNC. The only hard thing about being a melee is that you have to resist the greed factor when you see that AoE that's going to make you leave the boss for half a GCD. Ranged might have more up time, but because of that they usually are responsible for handling more mechanics.

A 10% disparity between rDPS, with the utility dps being on the bottom, is incredibly imbalanced. Why bother bringing a utility job and coordinating buffs to align with burst windows when you can just bring a bunch low utility jobs that can do more damage in any situation?

feels like ninja is just more super tedious and difficult to maintain rather than just outright weak.

Sort of sounds like ninjutsu might be getting treated to work like dances and get potencies to match which might be pretty cool. slow down the insanity for a moment every 30s for a super huge hit

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Originally Posted by Nihility

feels like ninja is just more super tedious and difficult to maintain rather than just outright weak.

Sort of sounds like ninjutsu might be getting treated to work like dances and get potencies to match which might be pretty cool. slow down the insanity for a moment every 30s for a super huge hit

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It is rather outright weak. Over compensation for having trick so we are not meta, they bloated our button play too. So it is more tedious and difficult to maintain, with no pay off, not for as long as TA is overvalued (by numbers i mean, the benefit of 1k is nullified by being 2k behind someone else)

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Again I'll say it. Ninjas have been the heaviest damage in previous FF games. Rogue, the class behind the Ninja job has likewise always been heavy hitting across MMORPGs for 20 years. Nothing about rogue screams I'm gonna buff peoples damage.

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Ehh.

For physical damage, it regularly gets beaten by Archer/Hunter and Monk across Final Fantasy games (up to and including Dimensions) and MMO's. It also tends to lose the overall usefulness race to Samurai in a number of FF games due to Samurai being useful and ninja being stuck in light armor with dual wield made irrelevant (or equippable by anyone) and one gimmick it relies on being a workable strategy in order to hang.

I main ninja and use it in Eden Savage. Ninja is honestly fine for casual content, I'm not even sure if it lags in dps for aoe dungeon mobs (if someone knows more please share) and player skill in non-savage/extreme creates way more of a gap than at most a 10% difference in dps if everyone were playing optimally.

In savage it's the worst of the four melee in terms of raid dps (this includes Trick Attack). There is zero reason to take a ninja over monk/dragoon right now which are the meta melees, all else being equal. That being said every class including ninja has cleared E4S at this point so if you can play well you're fine, you just won't be able to carry your party like if you were a good monk or blm. Another issue though is locking out classes in pf, since dps checks are tight right now in E2S+, I've seen quite a few clear parties on Crystal locking out ninja (for some reason they never lock out dancer or rdm though, even though they have even lower rdps).

Ninja needs a boost in savage for sure, especially considering how they're the least popular class in that content by a significant gap. Luckily the team has acknowledged the problems in the live letter and changes are coming in 5.1 :)

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Originally Posted by Kokomi

I main ninja and use it in Eden Savage. Ninja is honestly fine for casual content, I'm not even sure if it lags in dps for aoe dungeon mobs (if someone knows more please share) and player skill in non-savage/extreme creates way more of a gap than at most a 10% difference in dps if everyone were playing optimally.

In savage it's the worst of the four melee in terms of raid dps (this includes Trick Attack). There is zero reason to take a ninja over monk/dragoon right now which are the meta melees, all else being equal. That being said every class including ninja has cleared E4S at this point so if you can play well you're fine, you just won't be able to carry your party like if you were a good monk or blm. Another issue though is locking out classes in pf, since dps checks are tight right now in E2S+, I've seen quite a few clear parties on Crystal locking out ninja (for some reason they never lock out dancer or rdm though, even though they have even lower rdps).

Ninja needs a boost in savage for sure, especially considering how they're the least popular class in that content by a significant gap. Luckily the team has acknowledged the problems in the live letter and changes are coming in 5.1 :)

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Problem is 5.1 is like, 3 months away. By the time 5.08 drops the number of learning parties will have dropped too...

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Originally Posted by RenAshdoll

Problem is 5.1 is like, 3 months away. By the time 5.08 drops the number of learning parties will have dropped too...

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We'll just have to deal with pf lockout unfortunately (these parties are still in the minority and you can also make you own, I just have a problem with the mindset behind them). Like I said, ninja can clear this raid tier and our rdps isn't bad enough to be a liability, but it will have a tough time picking up the slack of other party members. If you play a class that does higher dps, you should be expected to do that much more in clear parties.

Then again, I haven't done much E4S yet and it looks like ninja does especially bad in that fight compared to the first three...

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Originally Posted by Kokomi

We'll just have to deal with pf lockout unfortunately (these parties are still in the minority and you can also make you own, I just have a problem with the mindset behind them). Like I said, ninja can clear this raid tier and our rdps isn't bad enough to be a liability, but it will have a tough time picking up the slack of other party members. If you play a class that does higher dps, you should be expected to do that much more in clear parties.

Then again, I haven't done much E4S yet and it looks like ninja does especially bad in that fight compared to the first three...

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NIN being excluded is like the norm, not the exception when it comes to ES4.

It's also partly why their parses look so bad because they have extremely low representation.

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Originally Posted by Nihility

feels like ninja is just more super tedious and difficult to maintain rather than just outright weak.

Sort of sounds like ninjutsu might be getting treated to work like dances and get potencies to match which might be pretty cool. slow down the insanity for a moment every 30s for a super huge hit

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While Mudra lag has become worse than ever. Ninja is, indeed, downright weak. When Monk is pulling over a 1,000 more rDPS... what's even the point of Trick Attack? Both it and Samurai need some serious attention in regards to their damage. Granted, Monk needs a straight nerf at this point. They did not realize how much Riddle of Fire slowed them down.

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Originally Posted by TankHunter678

E1S: https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...s=65&class=Any
E2S: https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...s=66&class=Any
E3S: https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...s=67&class=Any
E4S: https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...s=68&class=Any

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Looks like NIN has moved up a bit since this thread started.