Petition to Remove Classes & Just Have Jobs

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Originally Posted by Rousseau

Why is that?

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Because with classes, everyone can raise. With jobs, not everyone can?

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

I know this is all opinion lol. It makes sense to keep classes for solo play.. but this is a MMO right?

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Sure it is and I think no one said something against group play. :x But sometimes people just like to solo some parts, may it be two or three leves and log off again because of short time at hand that certain day or just because they can't wait hours until an eight man group is set up for levelling. Don't get me wrong, I like groups and group content. But some smaller things and quests are also enjoyable solo or in small groups (also the GC leves, that are only solo) and I don't want to miss that either.

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I think you forgot the part where we can change our classes and jobs on the fly, and aren't just stuck with one from the beginning to end.

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I beg your pardon, it might be my lack of language skills since I'm not a native speaker, so I'm not quite sure if I understood but the part quoted is probably what I tried to say. This is what I like about the armoury system.

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But IMO we need more specialization. When everyone could raise, no one was afraid to die if it did happen. Now with jobs, if you die, you can hinder the whole party and essentially lose since raises are limited (depending on the party setup).

We NEED to be more afraid to lose all our HP for once and jobs are taking it in the right direction.

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I can just say from experience that, even if we had 3-4 "raisers" (not necessarily CONs) in our party we were afraid of dying and did so constantly which did hinder us a lot...To be honest I think it is fine the way it is with this topic. If I am the only con (or wmh) in a party that can raise and the whole party goes down (and that is not in an important fight like a primal but a plain routine group) then I can either wait like 20 mins till everyone is revived, unless people return to their homepoint and return (which might be a long way...).
It wouldn't make me afraid of dying (my opinion) but take the fun of levelling away because one little fault can screw it all, so that the long time waiting for a party didn't really pay... (personal view but not everyone has that many hours the day for the game but yet wants to play.) Not to mention weakness. I hate to wait till it is gone, specially when it doubles. To me this is enough for me not to want to die...but that's probably a personal view again.
For a big battle, I agree with you, but most people go into a battle as a job anways so I also agree that we need more specialisations. However I think specialisation should happen on the base of the few classes we have (7 till now?).
When jobs came out I thought that they could hardly survive without a group but apperently this isn'tthe case atm? Maybe this aspect should be emphasized in the future to give classes a good place back.
Besides I would find it sorta strange if someone who is all new to the game (or at least a class) possesses a strong position like a dragoon from the beginning. I would prefer him to have to learn the basics of the lance until he can become such a terrifying fighter (same for other jobs) who is extraordinary. I like the jobs' extravagance and special position which is also underlined by their own quest rows. There are the "normal" fighters and those that stand out and specialized themselves. But again, just my view on this.




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@ UmJammerSully

Well, basically you're right with that but I don't think this is the classes' fault but the way the jobs are set up so I think the jobs should be made more distinctive (attributes, abilites etc.). If sniper has attributes that differ a lot from bard and also from archer (maybe have a job emphasize one or at most two attributes to an extreme like DPS, dexterity or whatnot) then this might already help a lot. Maybe SE can also add some more abilities for the jobs in the future. Who knows.

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

Because with classes, everyone can raise. With jobs, not everyone can?

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I was asking about that specific sentence you wrote. Why do you feel it is so important?

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Originally Posted by Loggos

. Who knows.

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Sorry I misread what you typed.

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Originally Posted by Technyze

Sorry but there shouldn't be a need to gear up two different classses/jobs just for 5 different skills.

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you dont have to do that, you can still just as easily use the gear for the class that you would for the job

but when your on the job, some gear may be better so youd get it too.

dont see what the problem there would be

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Originally Posted by Black_Rose

and what's that about FF11 advanced jobs? those were jobs of their own.
you just needed to lvl specific jobs to a lvl to unlock other, that doesn't mean those other jobs were advanced.
that would mean noone would have played warrior anymore after unlocking what, dark knight? (i'm not sure anymore as i haven't played that game for years)

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oh my god... well they have been named [Advanced jobs] by SE in FF11 ! because they only could be unlocked at lv 30.

and thats what we have here now... in an other form. you can only unlock jobs, if you have base classes at lv 30.

what is bad about that? its a progress to become a white mage, you are not a white mage from the beginning on. which i think makes them more interesting. and on the other side classes can equip other classes skills. you want to remove that complexity? the freedom?
and then the interesting thing for me.. you dont level to gain the job skills, you gain them through quests.. which i think is a nice way of content.

you want to have a plain system back... lv 1-50 white mage, and thats it.. wew..
so you also say you want to remove skill crossing?


i think it is good like it is now.. it makes the difference between FF11 and FF14 and on the other side brings more variety in it.

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

Because with classes, everyone can raise. With jobs, not everyone can?

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yes, and in contrast to that you are for example a better supporter when changing to bard... a much stronger damage dealer when switching from lancer to dragoon.. sure you cant raise anymore ...

thats the point where you have to question yourself... do you want to give up raise and other skills to get a more specialized role model of your class or if you want to keep all cross skills from other classes but not being that strong anymore in your role model.

a lancer having cure and raise makes him not stronger in damage dealing with his polearm (yes it can be useful also, and thats why classes are still useful in some situations)... switching to dragoon will boost the original function of a lancer... being a crit damage dealer with his polearm..



you have to make your own decision about that in each situation. and we are talking about job skills for -now-. i think there are more to come soon. and we dont have to forget that each job has 2 fixed "subjobs" also


i think its good like it is for now. of course it needs some tuning. but i think its not a disaster at all.
SE did a good job.

OP are you sure you understand how the classes work?

i agree that classes are useful for a more general purpose, but my point is that theres no reason jobs cant be tweaked alittle bit to accomidate for a lack of classes, without loseing there unique specialization in the first place. for example, FFXI had job that were specialized, but because of sub jobs it gave them that added boost of whatever they needed to take on different obstacles.

now im not saying to include sub jobs to ffxiv because i know its not ffxi, but the jobs system can be improved to have a similar effect.
so im not sure about everyone else here but i know IM not saying to get rid of classes because jobs are perfect as they are, im just saying that i think jobs can be improved to get rid of classes all together and that i would prefer that.
smack that like button if you agree with me :D

someone didnt think before making this forum smh..........

I think classes do serve a purpose and should stay. If a person feels classes are unnecessary, they certainly don't have to play them or collect gear for them.

Although I understand with some of the points made here I don't want to support anything that removes content from the game.
I'd much rather just have things modified to be useful.

I'm in agreement with Miz, wayyy too much gear to carry.

KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid)

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

no

just no


both still have their places as is easily being proved by many

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*dislike*
Not because you disagree, but because you do a terrible job of explaining why. This is a forum, give a solid reason as to why you feel that way.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

I think it's more a matter of people only being vocal about something when it's threatening their current game.

People who were content with classes didn't really participate in the discussion about them, people in favor of the current job system wont be chatting alot about it but those who care about classes will be sure they are heard.

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I'm agreeing with Jynx... is this bizarro world?
That said, I'm for keeping jobs and classes and having MORE jobs unlocked from the existing classes and the jobs being quite literally nothing more than specializations for each class.

I actually like to cure myself as a THM when doing leves. I try utilize/cross-class as many skills as I can when I'm soloing. Without classes I wouldn't able to equip... Protect, Stoneskin, Second Wind, Featherfoot, Cure, Sentinel, Rampart, Sacred Prism... Am I leaving anything else out? Classes in parties can also be very beneficial for the select few jobs that you might be missing in a party. Who wouldn't want a tricked out mage in the mix? =D

Give some time for some ajustments to jobs. I dont think they should be removed as they are can still be used as basis for future new jobs. I'm pretty sure ajustments will be geared toward generalizing the classes and specializing more the jobs

The new job system is a disappointment, it should be how it was in 11. the new way sucks and makes it feel less rewarding

no
http://i.imgur.com/66xzq.gif

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Originally Posted by Babydoll

I'd rather just have jobs too /shrug.

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Yeah I mean the jobs are what make it Final Fantasy, they've been here since FF1. They tried somethin new and it didn't work out. Would you rather play a Lancer or a Dragoon? I mean all the new content is tiered toward jobs at this point anyway, the only thing you do with a class is solo aside from a few other things anyway.

btw kinda crazy, I saw your deviant art page the other day and saw you played XIV, now I get to match a...face with a character? lol or whatever, but yeah, awesome cosplays, what are the odds I see you on the forums, small world!

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Originally Posted by Sortis

Yeah I mean the jobs are what make it Final Fantasy, they've been here since FF1. They tried somethin new and it didn't work out. Would you rather play a Lancer or a Dragoon? I mean all the new content is tiered toward jobs at this point anyway, the only thing you do with a class is solo aside from a few other things anyway.

btw kinda crazy, I saw your deviant art page the other day and saw you played XIV, now I get to match a...face with a character? lol or whatever, but yeah, awesome cosplays, what are the odds I see you on the forums, small world!

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theyve added new jobs in almost every FF for the most part too, and in some they didnt even have jobs at all!

so they arent what make a FF

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Originally Posted by Sortis

Yeah I mean the jobs are what make it Final Fantasy, they've been here since FF1. They tried somethin new and it didn't work out. Would you rather play a Lancer or a Dragoon? I mean all the new content is tiered toward jobs at this point anyway, the only thing you do with a class is solo aside from a few other things anyway.

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You're talking about soloing as if it's some negligible thing.

A sizeable chunk of the initial playerbase for FFXIV was drawn to it because of its advertised ability to accommodate solo and party play alike. Much of these players have been disappointed along the way due to soloing becoming more difficult with successive patches. The new class/job system seeks to restore that balance of being able to cater to both, and the system is still being fleshed out.

So no, soloing isn't something that should just be dismissed. The class system is what needs to cater to the crowd that likes to solo.

Here's what I think should happen:
When you ding 30, you can gain experience, but you're locked at that level. You are then told you must do this mandatory quest which turns out to be the first quest to get your soul. Then the class BECOMES the job. You can still use Second Wind and Stoneskin. You're just this great new person with a new place in the world, with new abilities, that just ascended from being a "standard class" to a "Job!".

In a perfect world, here's what should have happened:
Squeenix made many more jobs. When you ding 30, you get to chose which of the 2... or even 3! jobs you want to be. Then you are specialized and don't feel bummed because the job doesn't suit your needs and you just wish you didn't waste all that precious time. The choice is reversible. It only costs YOUR SOUL! Problem with that system is that it's counter everything that FF MMOs are. So it's a dumb idea that should be disregarded.

Oh wait... I'd like to add BEING ABLE TO USE DIFFERENT WEAPONS to the "in a perfect world" list. Sucks to be a "Daggeradin" or a "Paddladin". I also don't believe the gladiators we know fight with paddles, just sayin'.

The armory and job system combination is one of the most remarkable systems I've ever played. Just having jobs is kinda stupid. There are so many infinite possiblitys with the armory + job systems.

The Armory system:
Allows you to change class on the go, a wonderful mechanic if you ask me.
Classes are a type of "Freelancer" with their own attack styles, I think if they clashed in PVP you'd find it to be pretty balanced. Jobs, not so much.
Keeps from type clutter, and what I mean by this is having too many class archetypes (DD, Tank, Healer) Consider Conjurer. It is no doubt THE healer. The job white mage maximizes its status as a healer. Now consider something such as summoner (with supporting pet class skills). Basing in conjurer allows the summoner to be a mid-great healer (or DD) with a pet on the side. Both jobs being based in cnj can heal, just they optimized for different roles. And we didn't have to make a whole new class to do it.

The Job system:
Allows for group specialization.
Once enough jobs are introduced, it will truly allow players to find their "niche" in a party.
People CAN solo on jobs if that is their preference, but in my opinion you have more solo survivability as a freelanced class.

My thoughts are is how many jobs will they add by the end, alot I hope. And will EVERY class get a new job when new ones come out?

I would like to see classes kept; simply for the reason that we do not no what content is going to be implemented. I love MNK, but if a Besieged type event were to be added you can bet I would go PUG since I would have access to abilities like cure, stoneskin, raise, and the list goes on. So to call for the abandonment of classes at this point, I feel, would be short sighted.

So the advantage of a LNC compared to a DRG is that he uses Abilities from other classes - but is this really what we want? I personally like the possibility of choosing a few abilities of another class - I don't want 8 people in my dungeon that are able to ressurect - it feels wrong.

I'd prefer a sub-job-like system where you can choose one other class which you are able to pick a few abilities from.

All i have to say BLM sucks @ soloing THM does not. BLM does more dmg than THM cause freeze lowers your hate and thus lets you cast more spells worry free... I think they got it right GJ SE.

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Originally Posted by MizoreShirayuki

Greetings!

As many of you know, the introduction of the Job system has brought focus to an unfocused system. Yet that focus has also brought with it a sense of redundancy.

Why should anyone go PGL when they can go MNK? Why should anyone go GLA PLD when there's GLA? The need for classes anymore, even for solo play, just isn't there (PLD excluded from this statement).

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Simple Stoneskin & cure & protect & sentinal & rampart ~ the list goes on

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Originally Posted by Firon

All i have to say BLM sucks @ soloing THM does not. BLM does more dmg than THM cause freeze lowers your hate and thus lets you cast more spells worry free... I think they got it right GJ SE.

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LOL blm is better at soloing because of sleep/sleepaga.

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Originally Posted by Inaaca

So no, soloing isn't something that should just be dismissed. The class system is what needs to cater to the crowd that likes to solo.

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Exactly, I solo all the time and find it frustrating that certain quests require a group to play, but accept that this being an MMO it would be kind of ridiculous if there was no multiplayer content. Jobs close a lot of doors that are necessary in solo play, does anyone actually solo without protect cast on them at all times?

I'm not criticising the job system, it is a great idea for group play making assigned roles clearer and individuals more powerful in that given role, but outside of group play? I'll stick to the class system thanks.

Having both a Class and Job system creates unnecessary complexity. And complex does not necessarily mean better.

Try explaining to a newcomer how the class-job system works, in terms of cross-class action restrictions, gear restrictions, class restrictions, level prerequisites etc..

It can be done, to be sure, but you begin to realise that it is not a very elegant system.

I understand that some people like the option to fall back to their class, so they can access things like Raise, Cure, Sentinel, etc. But to be honest, it feels more like a crutch than anything. If the only reason people want classes still is to have these sorts of survival abilities for situational encounters or for soloing, then the problem is more to do with how the job is designed and not the lack of classes.
All jobs should be designed with some solo sustainability baked into their skill set. It should not have to be borrowed from another job. Likewise, an encounter should not be balanced in such a way that X and Y spell are required or make an encounter trivial.

By abolishing the Class system, you make the system a lot more clear-cut. You can give the jobs more identity and flexibility because you are not weighed down by having to make the job conform to the class. Just say you want to add Summoner, Thief, Samurai, Ninja, Musketeer Jobs to the game. You are forced to either create a whole new class to make them fit into the world's lore. Or attach them onto existing Classes. Creating even more complexity.

If you were to add a new Job to an existing class E.g. ARC can become a RNG or BRD. This means that you are essentially creating little extra content for a high production cost. Let me explain. Using the "Archer can become a Ranger or Bard" example. You would need to create job specific gear, quests, abilities (as you would have to do either way), but for those that already have ARC to 50, they would essentially be given 2-3 hours worth of extra content? By abolishing classes, it means that sure you would have to create more abilities and more weapon assets, but it would ultimately mean players are getting content equal to the time it takes to level up from 1-50 plus all the previously mentioned content. Some people say that leveling up is not considered content, but I disagree. I have always enjoyed leveling up in FF games. I know a few people who said that they wanted to leave all their characters at 30 for 1.21 so that they could experience leveling up to 50 as the job, and not the class.

Abolishing Jobs also solves the issue of Class/Jobs for DoH and DoL. Since all DoL and DoH could just be transitioned over to Jobs, and they could just then add additional DoL and DoH as they saw fit. Not being forced to feel as though they had to create "Angler" or "Master Tailor" just for the sake of giving all classes Jobs.

Uh... basically what we have now is similar to Ragnarok Online before the 2-2 classes came out (except with job switching and no novice)

http://images.mmorpg.com/features/33...s/3386_2_t.jpg


All we need now is second jobs for each class and bam, we've got something great.
Not innovative, per se... but tried and true.



What I like, with FFXIV's system... is that while its similar to RO before the 2-2 jobs; it has its differences as well because of the armory system and classes being more "open" than the jobs with which abilities they can cross-class. When new classes are added, the existing classes will become more versatile and there will also be a greater variance of jobs alongside them but won't directly influence the existing jobs since they don't gain abilities from them.
This could, potentially, change the way the classes we have now are used completely whereas the jobs maintain their static role. The possibilities are huge.

I like that idea of jobs upgrading to advance jobs. Like a Knight turns into Paladin, and then turns into a Crusader, Black Mage turns into Wizard, then into Sage etc etc. upgrading and unlocking new abilities along the way

we dont need a second job transform... one is enough....

blm -> wizzard? oh really? all final fantasy is about when it comes to damage dealing caster is a black mage... and hell no f*** wizzard which we see in any MMO -.-

its FINAL FANTASY you know... one progress step from con to white mage is really far enough..

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

we dont need a second job transform... one is enough....

blm -> wizzard? oh really? all final fantasy is about when it comes to damage dealing caster is a black mage... and hell no f*** wizzard which we see in any MMO -.-

its FINAL FANTASY you know... one progress step from con to white mage is really far enough..

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yes, 1 step is all we need

but what about later when they say...add red mage, which can be a combined conj/thm, then you got ravager...oh wait thats not supposed to exist is it, but wait its in a main ff numbered title too so i guess it counts!

and others such as it that have potential to be added


right now we have 1 class to 1 job, later we will see stronger versions of these im sure(jobs requiring higher class requirements, or more class requirements for instance)

How I feel about the Job system is like when errr... "Crabble" releases a "new" version of their "Bi-Phone" every year, sure the new model is nice, but it's basically the same ol' product. The Job system doesn't really feel unique.... It feels like a re-hash of the same old product we've had since the beginning (Classes) yet with 1-2 minor additions.

"Creativity is mastery of simplicity."

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

blm -> wizzard? oh really?

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Ya rly

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__...7s_Petasos.png

The new JSE for BLM is already called wizard stuff in FFXIV, why link to a FFXI picture?
With how jobs share xp with the base classes they might as well add more, i was looking forward to gettin to level new jobs only to be maxed out like right away.
I like the jobs, they're fun to play, but it feels like all they did was add side-quests, so they might as well add more since i have all this free time still. :P

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

The new JSE for BLM is already called wizard stuff in FFXIV, why link to a FFXI picture?

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yeah I know. I linked it to a ffxi picture to prove a point.

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

we dont need a second job transform... one is enough....

blm -> wizzard? oh really? all final fantasy is about when it comes to damage dealing caster is a black mage... and hell no f*** wizzard which we see in any MMO -.-

its FINAL FANTASY you know... one progress step from con to white mage is really far enough..

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If you are talking about it being Final Fantasy and only having one job change...hehe in FFA2 there was so many..I think FF3 had a lot too! It may have only been one change though..hard to remember >.<;

But yeah I still rather they just have either classes or jobs...I like things simple..plus my poor inventory lol ;~;

I miss sub jobs. I dislike jobs it kept me busy for almost whole week cause nothing had to be leveled. no wonder the majority of my friends are already going back on breaks till next patch(sadface ; ; ). I hope(yes i know its not happening but i can dream) we all get rerolled on 2.0 or i expect to see a lot of people play for a month, maybe two depending on the content, then leave again because were already lv 50 everything.
Can guarantee it took a hell of a lot longer to get 75 everything's in xi pre abyssea then 50 everything here. I like a bit of work in my games. I feel like everything's handed to me here. If we had to level jobs at least people who are 50 everything would have had a reason to stick around a bit longer, and wed not have everyone wearing af, every jobs. In XI people worked for this and worked hard (at one point) Im not looking for XI-2 but some of the challenges or time it took, the pride to wear full AF or to level a job to wear it.