Yeah but BLM don't get hit by sear you keep making terrible points. Monk is the only one with a game ruining weakness for that fight. Ok so don't focus on ifrit one of the best item dropping fights in the game. There are a ton of Monks playing who can't get into an ifrit group because all they do is put strain on healers and don't add anything more. Oh btw try to keep your mp up with sucker punch as a Monk on ifrit... its not easy and you'll take a ton of sear damage.
Class Balance will it ever exist at least to a fair degree?
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03-16-2012, 04:17 PMDokuton-Razortaru
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03-16-2012, 04:20 PMAion
I guess it will be settled by video of MNK run in ifrit...and parser may helps
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03-16-2012, 04:23 PMXianghuaI have and I do. Seriously what kind of monks do you run with? If you can't keep fist of for a 5 min fight you are a very poor monk. "there are a ton of monks playing who can't get into ifrit groups" Then make you own groups and show people what you can do. your only problem with ifrit is seer's dmg and as i said with regen+Second wind. Its not an issue at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dokuton-Razortaru
They only thing I can see is the monks(or you) really just suck at ifrit and trying to make excuses. If I and Many others can do the fight easily as monk then you and others should be able to. -
03-16-2012, 04:23 PMKiraAmane
Just for the record, I top the DPS meter pre-1.21 with pugilist. If I went back and did Ifrit with MNK, I would annihilate the fight. Dodging sears is easy. I would be doing 3-chain weapon skills while people, BLM included, would be running back. I think you should learn to dodge rather than complain about the classes being unbalanced.
With proper practice and rotating, you should be able to keep up on Moogle as well with melee classes.
On the new dungeons, you can use melee classes non-stop. Just not in pick up groups, because, let's face it, 95% of the population is not that good at this game.
And yes, MNK is my main class. -
03-16-2012, 04:26 PMAion
when is ifrit doing sear?
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03-16-2012, 04:27 PMXianghuahttp://tinypic.com/r/2efutt4/5]Quote:
Originally Posted by Aion
Me mnk
Ina BLM
Leon BLM
Elem War
Ynot plg
Nova brd -
03-16-2012, 04:28 PMMikitaExactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xianghua
Whenever SE has releases their sneak peak videos, it seems like they go in with a completely mixed party. For example, the Cutter's Cry video has Mnk, Blm, Whm, War, Whm, Pld, Drg, Brd.
I would hope that as part of their testing, SE does try to see if the content can be cleared with 1 of each job in the party.
Stacking jobs is something that the community often chooses to do, but this is not the only way.
I still think Monk is viable. We beat Ifrit 4 times last night with 1 Monk in the party, and I don't think she was at any real disadvantage. -
03-16-2012, 05:06 PMDokuton-Razortaru
I'll test monk out abit more then.
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03-16-2012, 05:14 PMXianghuaIt is a bit harder to play. But honestly thats why I love it so much. Fights are too damn easy in this game when you can just sit back and take no damage. I do agree that mobs should be able to hit others with some type of damage to. But I see it more as a fight issue and not a job balance issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dokuton-Razortaru
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03-17-2012, 09:27 AMNiqote
Hmm, I know I would personally love a permanent running boost for dodging Ifrit >.>... I think you just might need more practice dear.
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03-17-2012, 11:06 AMNaelle
This may have been said but mnk is amazing on ifrit. Whm isnt taxed one bit to drop a 56 mp regen on you every 45 seconds. Regen > Sear. I out damage every other job on ifrit with mnk, it's high risk high reward. Learn the job and you're set.
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03-17-2012, 11:17 AMNoctisUmbra
The level of ignorance on the OP is staggering. I had to pause and take a minute to laugh my ass off when he actually tried to say MNK sucks in Ifrit - and cause of what? Sear? lmao
Regen more than takes care of it. Covers almost the entire sear tick so you could ignore it if you wanted. Then there's the 900+ HP instant-heal of Second Wind for no cost every 45s. So the downside is not a downside really at all.
As for MNK's damage, Ifrit is weak to wind guy. Wind > Fire. Elemental wins ftw. MNK hits twice as hard as any other melee job and can easily keep up with and/or out-DPS a BLM.
Your credibility. Down the drain. -
03-17-2012, 12:15 PMOdynKorsai
I very rarely post on the forums, but I had to log in just to reply to the OP. Talking about how MNK is useless for Ifrit made me lol a little. Not only have I seen plenty of people do Ifrit with PGL and now also MNK... but go watch the Ifrit preview video again. Notice the party setup on there? MRD ARC ARC THM GLA GLA CON PGL in case you missed it. That's 6/7 available classes used, and I think we already know LNC does all right :D Anyway... that is all I had to say. kthxbye
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03-17-2012, 01:14 PMArcell
So you took the one fight that Monk really doesn't shine in at all and then cry that there's no balance? Not all fights can be built to be 100% viable to all classes. Some are better for a particular fight than others, there's really no getting away from that.
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03-17-2012, 01:21 PMKasatharI read this and I just had to stop. Whinny individual that has no idea how to play outside the box with actual brains. makes me sad. :/Quote:
Originally Posted by Dokuton-Razortaru
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03-17-2012, 06:46 PMRiaayo
We've had Monk tank Ifrit and other fights... just saying.
There's sadly always going to be a path of least resistance that everyone will flock to and then complain that every other way is too hard, but it doesn't always mean it's impossible or imbalanced.
If you want to talk about a class being broken, you might look at Paladin for now... that's the only one I see having some issues post 1.21. -
03-17-2012, 07:51 PMDokuton-Razortaru
Sorry little late getting to this.. but yeah sorry i was raging yesterday about monk blowing. Should of spent more time in high level fights with him before coming to an opinion.(hard to do when I'm enjoying every job 50) But yeah they seem ok. Also i just want to do a quick trololol to people who think monks or any class in the game is hard to play correctly. I was raging about sear hitting my monk not about weapon skill damage, TP generation, auto attack damage, or mobility. If you think me being pissed about taking extra damage in a fight correlates in anyway to me not know how to play a class correctly ... then you have the right to that opinion, But my opinion would be about the same for you. I was wrong about Monk though they are cool but still need to test more.
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03-17-2012, 08:37 PMIssachar
I think don't jobs are unbalanced. My MNK is perfectly fine in most scenarios, as is anything else I use (everything).
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03-17-2012, 08:50 PMTonkrano this thread is about "Monk is gimped in ifrit battle" ^.^Quote:
Originally Posted by Dokuton-Razortaru
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03-17-2012, 09:46 PMKlive
I did Ifrit, with the new job system, with three monks. I was the healer and I can tell you how to handle ifrit with monks. Your WHM needs to use regen on the melee. Really thats it. regne more than kept the monks up. I never had to throw anything else on them. The MNK damage great and Ifrit went down quickly.
The jobs are fine and work wonders in fights, it just the fact most people don't know how to work as a team, yet. -
03-17-2012, 11:15 PMNoctisUmbra
I think patch 1.21 and all the content that came with it strike the best balance this game has seen in a very long time.
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03-18-2012, 03:04 AMImpulseDamage tends to go up quite a bit with the proper fists on, or you can keep wind up and spam WS combos.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dokuton-Razortaru
Oh, you're running out of MP with the fists up? It must be so hard to deactivate fists and put your weapon away for a few moments to restore MP as Ifrit is jumping around. -
03-18-2012, 04:08 AMRau
ITT: OP is a bad MNK
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03-18-2012, 04:29 AMDrunk-Banditlol giving me more reason not to try pld o.o think I'm sticking with mage jobs XDQuote:
Originally Posted by Xianghua
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03-18-2012, 04:41 AMDokuton-Razortaru
Yeah i was running Ifrit while responding the entire time i was raging lol guess i let the sear get on my nerves so bad i was blinded by rage!. Just need to run with proper healers. Only ran Ifrit on monk once and was so distracted by being seared i didn't really take the time to run ifrit more as monk. Never complained about being out of mana on ifrit though to keep fists up. Anyways thanks everyone for making me look at monk more, one of my favorite classes.
Monk .. Behind pounce.. sucker from sides (keeps mp up ) >>> into dragon kick... maybe if your pro go in front of ifrit hit him with frontal combo into con blow > fists combo (don't know names of frontal ws combo ) <--- could get you hit by claws or train tank with eruption but sounds fun, could fix that by only doing frontal after an eruption. Eh what else keep proper fists up (very hard to test this i mean popping each fist and seeing which is higher dps (should always be either fire or wind. Earth being defensive. Don't use fire on ifrit no brainer for this situation it will be wind) Use enmity reducers/self heals/buffs when possible. If your soloing you can shoulder tackle stun > into pounce stun for easy combo. If your soloing you can do side weaponskills by waiting for a mob to get locked in auto animation and running around to their sides. If a mob does a weaponskill/buff/magic you can run behind them and do pounce combo. Dodge > haymaker if stun goes off you can do pounce combo from behind ( all mostly solo stuff here). I have a handle on the class i think. -
03-18-2012, 06:16 AMTurtle
My friend Lyndis Evadne was doing 700 ws on ifrit as monk w/o buffs or food. Comparibly higher to any other spell or ws I've seen in the fight. They can also exploit element weakness's which in primal fights is amazing. The new jobs system makes it hard for most jobs to self maintain thier HP, thats why WHM's got a huge buff. Most jobs have poor survivability in ifrit now. You are sacrificing survivability, or in other cases dmg for the insane dmg/hate manipulation/or healing potency. The only job I see as being gimp right now is PLD. PLD has low hp, no MP regen and miserable emnity. All jobs right now outside of PLD are really well balanced. They are just more party oriented now.
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03-18-2012, 06:17 AMMajidah
what drops darklight gear?
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03-18-2012, 07:53 AMLux_Rayna
No offense OP but you're just doing something wrong.
1) Idk why you'd take MNK over PGL. PGL seems like a much better choice to me because you increase your survivability. Not saying you can't do it on MNK, but you need to be able to avoid Sear with near 100% efficiency or you will just be a burden. Unless you can avoid Sear, stick to pgl.
2) If you insist on doing insane damage then learn mp management with fists. You should be weaving in and out between Sears, putting your weapon away between charges and between your assaults. Also make sure to time your second winds..you dont want to eat a prism+cure/cura because you lost some hp lol. Its your only heal so use it wisely, usually in situations where if you didnt use it you'd probably die from a sear/aoe/whatever. But if you can't avoid Sears second wind will just not help you...so practice that. -
03-18-2012, 07:57 AMNoctisUmbraTake PGL over MNK as a DD? lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna
This job system is going over so many heads. I guess I can't blame people after the classes tunnel-visioned so many of them into the "I have to be 100% self sufficient in a party of 8 people" mentality. -
03-18-2012, 08:08 AMLux_RaynaThe job system has clearly gone over your head lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra
MNK does not replace PGL as a DD. PGL is still a DD, ableit one with more survivability then MNK. You choose one or other based on how badly you might need that extra survivability. Ifrit is a pretty strong case for having extra survivability, especially on a class like PGL. Not only are you eating aoes, you have to deal with sear. Obviously (this is where you failed to read) if you don't need that extra survivability due to personal skill level THEN you take MNK. Next time read instead of trying to troll. Jobs don't replace classes. Its ironic you accuse me of missing the point of jobs when you missed it *entirely* -
03-18-2012, 08:11 AMPeptaruI'm pretty sure if you read what the person you quoted said, the points all relate to survivability not to DD ability. The points were tied in with situation specific examples and so on, did you read it or did you just jump at seeing "take pgl instead of mnk"? they even set out examples of best efficiency when on mnk as opposed to pgl.... so ya! ok..... i guess so many people are tunnel-visioned into attacking anyone who says to use a class instead of a job lol ('cept lolpld)Quote:
Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra
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03-18-2012, 08:16 AMNoctisUmbraFists of Wind. Wind > Fire. Almost half the cooldown on very important weaponskills. ~25% increased movement speed that makes eruptions a joke.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna
The point of the Job system is greater rewards for greater skill and codependency among players.
Having a WHM throw regen on MNK coupled with the already potent Second Wind covers MNK's HP loss from Sear rather well. Some spot heals from the BRD can make it no problem at all. All this maintenance for what? To have the highest DPS out of all the jobs/classes on Ifrit.
I don't know where you got the idea I was a troll, but I'm not surprised since that label gets tossed around like nothing. Especially when at the same time you're trying to tell me that the system has gone over my head because apparently I can still use classes. Wow. Huge discovery there lol.
My point is that many people are so accustomed to this notion that you have to be self-sufficient instead of depending on team members that they will go in as a class even when they're effectively downgrading their efficiency at their role.
MNK is a significantly better DD on Ifrit than PGL. That is the role it is their to fill. So long as a fight is not essentially suicidal at such close range as MNK/PGL has to be, the survivability is not concern as that's what WHMs and BRDs are for. So many people underestimate Regen- they don't realize how overpowered it is. I see this with WHMs in game much more often that I should.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peptaru
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03-18-2012, 08:17 AMPeptaru
The OP was talking about dying and gettin wrecked, so ya...... maybe he should be more self-sufficient, who said this applies to all monks in all parties?
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03-18-2012, 08:23 AMNoctisUmbraI'm responding to Lux Rayna regarding PGL vs MNK in the Ifrit fight. The OP has already realized that MNK is more than viable and effective as a DD in Ifrit and has already said so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peptaru
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03-18-2012, 08:24 AMLux_RaynaI said you were a troll because you implied I didn't grasp the job system when I, in fact, did.Quote:
Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra
Fact is, few ppl have the skill necessary to pull off the Ifrit fight well as a MNK. If you can't do it right, just take pgl. That was basically what my post meant. I automatically assume that the person in question can't do it as a MNK because I know the majority can't. Of course you'd take MNK over PGL if you were good enough, but that hardly applies to everyone..not even mostly everyone.
Basically, I dont know why anyone would take MNK over PGL because I dont find the increased dmg necessary over the increased survivability. PGL still does great dmg, so unless you can do Ifrit in your sleep, I don't see the need for using MNK over PGL.
I do understand your point, but a pug will not take the time to heal a DD ever. At least no pug i've ever been in. If healers actually healed DD's during downtime then there would never be a need for self sufficiency. Since that is not the case (yet), relying on team members to keep your hp up will always result in your death lol. Least thats my experience on Lindblum. -
03-18-2012, 08:36 AMNoctisUmbraHonestly MNK is easier to pull off in Ifrit than PGL if you ask me. The increased movement speed gives you a greater window of error for avoiding eruptions and/or weaving in and out of Sears if you so chose. The general point though is that Regen plays a huge role here. So one can say playing MNK vs PGL depends more on how on-the-ball your WHMs and perhaps BRD is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna
The damage increase is very, very noticeable. Fire is weak to Wind. That already makes everything hit harder. That's not even the point though. With Spinning Heel MNK has greater TP generation. Coupled with this FoW MNK wearing Temple Boots has a ~40% decrease(?) to all WS cooldowns. This is essentially an everlasting Keen Flurry. Then there's the extra speed to run away from Ifrit during eruptions, and Shoulder Tackle to make a quick dash return to him whilst dealing free damage. MNK is a DPS monster. PGL is comparable to other DDs at best.Quote:
Basically, I dont know why anyone would take MNK over PGL because I dont find the increased dmg necessary over the increased survivability. PGL still does great dmg, so unless you can do Ifrit in your sleep, I don't see the need for using MNK over PGL.
I wasn't directly attacking you honestly. At least I didn't mean to come across like that. My point was moreso that players overall haven't adapted to the codependency that the jobs demand in order to be more effective. If a PUG is not taking the time to heal a DD, they've become accustomed to having DDs that are self sufficient - even though their healers have become much better at what they do as a WHM and the DD jobs are much better than the classes at the cost of being dependent on heals. Most of the time, like with MNK on Ifrit, this can be solved with something as simple as a WHM throwing Regens every once in a while on the DDs for good measure and the BRD giving effective support with tossing Stoneskins.Quote:
I do understand your point, but a pug will not take the time to heal a DD ever. At least no pug i've ever been in. If healers actually healed DD's during downtime then there would never be a need for self sufficiency. Since that is not the case (yet), relying on team members to keep your hp up will always result in your death lol. Least thats my experience on Lindblum.
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03-18-2012, 08:55 AMLux_RaynaOh didnt think about the movement speed increase, such an easy thing to forget about lol. Good point.Quote:
Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra
Ive been wondering now how it compares the usual thm/blm stacking that goes on...I said that earlier because I assumed a MNK was still inferior to THM/BLMS in terms of dmg output, especially on Ifrit, but I guess that may not be true now lol. At least not vastly inferior.Quote:
The damage increase is very, very noticeable. Fire is weak to Wind. That already makes everything hit harder. That's not even the point though. With Spinning Heel MNK has greater TP generation. Coupled with this FoW MNK wearing Temple Boots has a ~40% decrease(?) to all WS cooldowns. This is essentially an everlasting Keen Flurry. Then there's the extra speed to run away from Ifrit during eruptions, and Shoulder Tackle to make a quick dash return to him whilst dealing free damage. MNK is a DPS monster. PGL is comparable to other DDs at best.
Lol my baaad...forums leave me defensive :XQuote:
I wasn't directly attacking you honestly. At least I didn't mean to come across like that. My point was moreso that players overall haven't adapted to the codependency that the jobs demand in order to be more effective. If a PUG is not taking the time to heal a DD, they've become accustomed to having DDs that are self sufficient - even though their healers have become much better at what they do as a WHM and the DD jobs are much better than the classes at the cost of being dependent on heals. Most of the time, like with MNK on Ifrit, this can be solved with something as simple as a WHM throwing Regens every once in a while on the DDs for good measure and the BRD giving effective support with tossing Stoneskins.
But yeah I fully understand your point now, and I agree. Would be nice if everyone got on the co-dependency train instead of thinking in the old system. -
03-18-2012, 08:59 AMPeptaru
All healers and support jobs need to come around before melee jobs can even think about coming around, if you don't get cured, as much as it sucks, you'll need to be on your class instead of your job. the alternative is dying repeatedly and hoping your mages learn quickly or find the time to keep you alive too. (yes i know regen is really fast and easy, but i still don't get it sometimes)
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03-18-2012, 09:10 AMLux_RaynaThereby lies the conundrum. If we always play our class, healers will never come around, since we will be healing ourselves. Thus, the status quo will be forever perpetuated. The only solution is to play a job and ask for regens now and then, or die and accept the inevitable flaming. Eventually, healers will learn to cope..or DDs will never get invited into parties again. We need revolution!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Peptaru
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03-18-2012, 09:20 AMNoctisUmbraYup. I've been preaching this as much as I can. The WHMs have no trouble transitioning for the most part since they were already healers as CNJs. As far as they go it's simply spreading awareness of how amazing Regen is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peptaru
The primary change is the ARC > BRD. So many players are still playing BRD with a focus on DD. It has pretty much the lowest DD out of the DDs, which include MNK, BLM, DRG. The songs are essential of course and are the primary reason that they will always be in demand, but they can also be a very effective boon to the party by throwing support heals and more importantly Stoneskins. Their DD is still good but it should be secondary to their primary role.
I feel like once the omgdpsiswhatiplayfor BRDs come around to realizing how to best support their party and how that is NOT through trying to top DPS, the job system as a whole will begin to be more effective and desirable universally.